V12 Features and documentation
by MaX HEaDroom · in Torque Game Engine · 05/04/2001 (5:55 am) · 39 replies
Hey check out http://www.auran.com/jet/betafeatures.htm
for their new release they say will be on July 11th.
How does V12 compare feature wise? Will it have everything that the Jet people say they have?
Will V12 come with documentation for the API and system overviews, cos that's what they say they have.
Over 5000 symbools documented...wowow!
That would really make it easy to learn, and it's free!
for their new release they say will be on July 11th.
How does V12 compare feature wise? Will it have everything that the Jet people say they have?
Will V12 come with documentation for the API and system overviews, cos that's what they say they have.
Over 5000 symbools documented...wowow!
That would really make it easy to learn, and it's free!
#22
Will this be provided? Or is GG operating on the principle that all dev teams will comprise gun prgrmmerz who just luv to pour thru 300K lines of twisted "tarball".
Hopefully not written by programmers as we know that the only reason people cut code is cos they Kant spel proplerly, and tha KeyWurds mak it real ezy to writ stuf:-)
I'm sure at $100 * 2000-3000 initial sales = a kewl 200-300k they can afford it...
05/08/2001 (5:19 am)
Ho-K, the upshot is V12 developers will realistically want sum engine DoKuMenTation, not just badly Kommented src Kode.Will this be provided? Or is GG operating on the principle that all dev teams will comprise gun prgrmmerz who just luv to pour thru 300K lines of twisted "tarball".
Hopefully not written by programmers as we know that the only reason people cut code is cos they Kant spel proplerly, and tha KeyWurds mak it real ezy to writ stuf:-)
I'm sure at $100 * 2000-3000 initial sales = a kewl 200-300k they can afford it...
#23
I do work for a large software company and build all types of applications - have for many, many years. That's why I have the perspective I do. We are constantly faced with maintaining and extending existing systems - and when it comes down to it - you just end up learning the code. No documentation is gonna provide the detail you need to understand in order to support the system and extend it. By the way, the only way I was able to really learn MFC was to read the code. The docs provided good reference material, but since MS decided to add Intellisense to the C++ IDE - I rarely use those either. That said, I won't dismiss good documentation. If it's there, I'll use it to get started.
The documentation debate will rage on for as long as folks are developing software and maintaining it - it's like coding standards - si I will leave this topic to reest for now :) I did have a point that was bigger than documentation, however, when this thread started so allow me to steer us back in that direction...
The fact that V12 doesn't initally ship with full docs and that it might run a few FPS faster or slower than the compitition seem like details that don't really matter in the big picture. GG is providing a way for start-up game developers to realize their dream of releasing high-quality games by giving away the source for a AAA game engine and providing the service of publisher - all for $100. I don't know many people that could even consider a $30,000 fee to get their game published, which brings me all the way back to my original statement that sparked this thread.
Do folks in this discussion thread (or any of your game dev friends) actually have $30,000 to spend on the publishing of their game? Let alone the contacts and man power required to find a good publisher and strike up a great deal? These are hard problems that startup game developers face - I know because I also face them. I really think that the publishing side of the V12 deal is a sweet one as it allows our team to simply build the best game that we can and work with GG along the way to ensure we have the best shot at getting our game published.
05/08/2001 (7:22 am)
Scott, I don't mind being singled out here - I did kind of deserve it. My statement about the cost of the two engines was meant to stir things up and did indeed recieve an intelligent response. A couple of them, in fact. You mentioned earlier that you were playing "devil's advocate" - well, consider my position on documentation to be something along those lines. I do work for a large software company and build all types of applications - have for many, many years. That's why I have the perspective I do. We are constantly faced with maintaining and extending existing systems - and when it comes down to it - you just end up learning the code. No documentation is gonna provide the detail you need to understand in order to support the system and extend it. By the way, the only way I was able to really learn MFC was to read the code. The docs provided good reference material, but since MS decided to add Intellisense to the C++ IDE - I rarely use those either. That said, I won't dismiss good documentation. If it's there, I'll use it to get started.
The documentation debate will rage on for as long as folks are developing software and maintaining it - it's like coding standards - si I will leave this topic to reest for now :) I did have a point that was bigger than documentation, however, when this thread started so allow me to steer us back in that direction...
The fact that V12 doesn't initally ship with full docs and that it might run a few FPS faster or slower than the compitition seem like details that don't really matter in the big picture. GG is providing a way for start-up game developers to realize their dream of releasing high-quality games by giving away the source for a AAA game engine and providing the service of publisher - all for $100. I don't know many people that could even consider a $30,000 fee to get their game published, which brings me all the way back to my original statement that sparked this thread.
Do folks in this discussion thread (or any of your game dev friends) actually have $30,000 to spend on the publishing of their game? Let alone the contacts and man power required to find a good publisher and strike up a great deal? These are hard problems that startup game developers face - I know because I also face them. I really think that the publishing side of the V12 deal is a sweet one as it allows our team to simply build the best game that we can and work with GG along the way to ensure we have the best shot at getting our game published.
#24
A comprehensive set of tools that allows you to actually build a game, although initial documentation will be skimpy.
Or complete documentation for a set of low level routines with no tools at all.
Hmm... you know, I think I can figure out how to use the tools of the former a lot faster than I can write tools for the latter.
I really don't think AJ is a viable alternative to V12. I just hope they hurry up and make it available.
05/08/2001 (9:49 am)
Lets see...A comprehensive set of tools that allows you to actually build a game, although initial documentation will be skimpy.
Or complete documentation for a set of low level routines with no tools at all.
Hmm... you know, I think I can figure out how to use the tools of the former a lot faster than I can write tools for the latter.
I really don't think AJ is a viable alternative to V12. I just hope they hurry up and make it available.
#25
1) Auran is considering a royalty deal in leau (is that how you spell that?) of the $30000 license fee.
2) It is free for all non-comercial use and for commercial use up until the time of publication.
3) From what I understand, GG will be equally happy to publish a game produced with AJ as with V12 and, correct me if I'm wrong, that won't include a 50% royalty cut.
For me that wouldn't be enough to make me choose AJ over V12 but under some circumstances I think it would be worth considering. At the very least its worth waiting to see the finished product and the final license agreement.
05/08/2001 (5:13 pm)
I agree that V12 is, in almost all cases, a better tool than AJ. However:1) Auran is considering a royalty deal in leau (is that how you spell that?) of the $30000 license fee.
2) It is free for all non-comercial use and for commercial use up until the time of publication.
3) From what I understand, GG will be equally happy to publish a game produced with AJ as with V12 and, correct me if I'm wrong, that won't include a 50% royalty cut.
For me that wouldn't be enough to make me choose AJ over V12 but under some circumstances I think it would be worth considering. At the very least its worth waiting to see the finished product and the final license agreement.
#26
05/09/2001 (6:22 am)
I think the choice between the engines has to do with professionality/connections/experience/manpower more than money or the abilities of the engines.
#27
05/09/2001 (6:31 am)
So you could make the game for free initially with Auran, then get GG to publish it... Neat....
#28
05/09/2001 (6:50 am)
hmmm... once you got GG to publish your Jet powered game, you might need to pay that $30,000 lisense fee to Auran regardless how much you earn, which is kinda suk in that case.
#29
05/09/2001 (5:28 pm)
Yes, you would have to pay the $30000 or roylaties (if that is an option) even if you publish with GG. If its a good game then you would hope that the royalties option wouldn't be a problem, if not you could still put it in the free bin at GG and not pay Auran at all, unless I'm mistaken.
#30
05/10/2001 (8:11 am)
So GG would be an option when using Auran then... It would increase popularity of the game and increase web traffic/etc. for GG.
#31
I myself, am going to go down an easier route, and start small. Create my own engine for basic games. Work up to something worth publishing.
05/10/2001 (5:38 pm)
Chris, GG is for publishing independant games. It doesn't matter how you make the game. Have you not looked at the Play Games page? As far as I am aware, you make the game as you please, and GG publish it if it's good. GG also happens to offer V12 as an option for creating your game, but it is not the only option. But with the non-stop talk about V12 round here, it is understandable that anyone would think that GG is here for publishing V12 games :)I myself, am going to go down an easier route, and start small. Create my own engine for basic games. Work up to something worth publishing.
#32
05/11/2001 (7:43 am)
Okay
#33
It sounded like you were in need of clarification as to whether you could develop using the Jet engine, and still publish through GG. I was just pushing the point that any engine could be used, or indeed none. There is always the possibility that some people at GG are unsure of that.
You seem to have something against me - everything I say in these public forums, you somehow take as a personal attack.
I do not know what I have done to offend you so dearly, but I would be glad if you could explain to me why I have no right to post in a GG forum without an argument from you. I was offering simple information, not an insult. I would not complain at your constant arguments/insults against me, except that they are unfounded and pointless. What you posted benifited no one, and was not even promoting a good discussion, so take your problem somewhere else.
05/11/2001 (3:01 pm)
I was simply trying to help.It sounded like you were in need of clarification as to whether you could develop using the Jet engine, and still publish through GG. I was just pushing the point that any engine could be used, or indeed none. There is always the possibility that some people at GG are unsure of that.
You seem to have something against me - everything I say in these public forums, you somehow take as a personal attack.
I do not know what I have done to offend you so dearly, but I would be glad if you could explain to me why I have no right to post in a GG forum without an argument from you. I was offering simple information, not an insult. I would not complain at your constant arguments/insults against me, except that they are unfounded and pointless. What you posted benifited no one, and was not even promoting a good discussion, so take your problem somewhere else.
#34
Start another thread if Yo all want to slap each other 'round.
05/11/2001 (10:20 pm)
Yo, dudes! Can we cut the kidde arguments and get back to the topic...V12 and dokumentation...please!Start another thread if Yo all want to slap each other 'round.
#35
Sorry.
And... I don't hold anything against anyone in this forum, I just express my honest opinion, I really don't even pay much attention to who is posting what I am commenting on, because it doesn't matter who it is(does it?).
05/12/2001 (6:35 am)
I didn't mean that to insult you or offend you, it's just I was pretty busy and not in a very good mood.Sorry.
And... I don't hold anything against anyone in this forum, I just express my honest opinion, I really don't even pay much attention to who is posting what I am commenting on, because it doesn't matter who it is(does it?).
#36
05/15/2001 (12:26 am)
When is V12 going to be released?
#37
05/15/2001 (8:49 am)
When its done
#39
05/15/2001 (7:02 pm)
Why, thank you. A rough idea is better than no idea at all. 
Chris Helms
>An abominably small number of developers actually bother to comment their code well and (even more importantly) keep the comments in sync with the changes to the code.
I can easily believe this. I myself don't document my code almost at all and most of it I can only understand, unless I am purposely making a program that is open source that I want people to be able to understand.
>Would you expect someone to learn MFC by reading the source code?
If they did, who would ever have learnt it?
I have seen different engines and I highly doubt a generally wrapper could be made, mostly because the architecture and structure are extremely different in most cases.