Terrain
by Dean Avanti · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 03/29/2007 (5:36 am) · 13 replies
Terrain modeling, the terrain seems like its limitless, does torque do a terrain that isn't, I'm only using a small piece for terrain, so perhaps the atlas terrain takes up resources, if it doesn't then fine, atlas is the one.
You can use heightmaps to make a terrain, how big can they be, does it make a difference how big a size they are, how do we control how big an area they make, ie the heightmap may cover several miles or just a hundred meters, how do we control that.
Can I use some form of depth in the texture of the terrain, like a bump map, normal map, parallax map etc, of that sort of thing, I just see flat textures in the demo I didn't see anything to make shaders or manipulate shaders.
Can I control the mesh density of the terrain.
Any tutorials covering terrain for TGEA, its a bit thin here, a few simple videos would help this, torque looks quite user friendly I am amazed that their isn't any tutorial videos for what seems on the surface a good engine for hobbyists and indie developers.
You can use heightmaps to make a terrain, how big can they be, does it make a difference how big a size they are, how do we control how big an area they make, ie the heightmap may cover several miles or just a hundred meters, how do we control that.
Can I use some form of depth in the texture of the terrain, like a bump map, normal map, parallax map etc, of that sort of thing, I just see flat textures in the demo I didn't see anything to make shaders or manipulate shaders.
Can I control the mesh density of the terrain.
Any tutorials covering terrain for TGEA, its a bit thin here, a few simple videos would help this, torque looks quite user friendly I am amazed that their isn't any tutorial videos for what seems on the surface a good engine for hobbyists and indie developers.
#2
03/29/2007 (7:02 am)
Hello, if you're looking at using Legacy terrain, then yes, normal maps/parallax maps/relief maps are easily doable. I've posted my source code in the private forums.
#3
Also good so we can get some bump going on, that's great.
In theory one could use a height map and paint walls on it, then use the height map as rather than terrain as a ruined building, would this be a bad option, I know we can make this kind of thing in an outside program and just import it in as a mesh, I just like to look at outside ideas for things that can be done, do you see any problems doing this.
Ive had a play with this in TGEA, I just edited the demo terrain, sounds like there are 2 terrains one that goes on forever and one that you can set its size, though I cant be sure on this, I made a height map from my image of walls, came out nice, but its massive, the walls are huge, the terrain is huge, Ive got to figure out, 1 make the height of it smaller, and 2 make the whole thing smaller, this things is huge in area, I don't want it that big, I want it like small for a character to walk around.
03/29/2007 (8:20 am)
Thanks for the response on the questions, Ill test that out,Also good so we can get some bump going on, that's great.
In theory one could use a height map and paint walls on it, then use the height map as rather than terrain as a ruined building, would this be a bad option, I know we can make this kind of thing in an outside program and just import it in as a mesh, I just like to look at outside ideas for things that can be done, do you see any problems doing this.
Ive had a play with this in TGEA, I just edited the demo terrain, sounds like there are 2 terrains one that goes on forever and one that you can set its size, though I cant be sure on this, I made a height map from my image of walls, came out nice, but its massive, the walls are huge, the terrain is huge, Ive got to figure out, 1 make the height of it smaller, and 2 make the whole thing smaller, this things is huge in area, I don't want it that big, I want it like small for a character to walk around.
#4
03/29/2007 (2:05 pm)
I wouldn't recommend using terrain for ruined buildings. They'll suffer greatly from texture stretching and it will end up looking like a vomit of polygons rather than a building.
#5
03/29/2007 (2:27 pm)
Perhaps better to do as a mesh, Ill do it as BSP perhaps, My meshes will have no roof, they are maze structures, are these best as BSP, they have no ceiling, what do you think, BSP?
#6
03/29/2007 (3:01 pm)
I'm a BSP supporter. Either would work, but BSP would probably be easiest.
#7
I have a difference of opinion on instancing, some torque users have said the engine cant do that, but I had a news letter and it said it does, whats the deal here, can Torque, instance, If you want to do your game on xbox arcade I think its a must so to keep file sizes small, what the deal here, can TGEA do it.
03/30/2007 (4:54 am)
I had a go doing it with terrain, I dont think its the best option, it can be done though, but I don't think its the best option.I have a difference of opinion on instancing, some torque users have said the engine cant do that, but I had a news letter and it said it does, whats the deal here, can Torque, instance, If you want to do your game on xbox arcade I think its a must so to keep file sizes small, what the deal here, can TGEA do it.
#8
--if you are talking about from disk to memory, then the answer is yes.
--if you are talking about memory to video card (shader based), then the answer is no for 1.5, yes for TGE-A (render instancing).
03/30/2007 (7:41 am)
Please define what you mean by "instancing".--if you are talking about from disk to memory, then the answer is yes.
--if you are talking about memory to video card (shader based), then the answer is no for 1.5, yes for TGE-A (render instancing).
#9
My experience from this is from unreal engine, you made the levels from BSP, the details you added with static meshes, you would add say one SM, say a pillar, say you had like 100 of these in your level, rather than treat it as 100 models, it is one model and it remembers its locations that this one object is at, making it much smaller in the size of the map, as its not having to store 100 objects, but 1 object and its locations, it made the map sizes much smaller, now I don't know if torque can do that, I hope so because if one made a game for xbox arcade then you a smaller file size would be of help to keep the download small, same goes for selling a PC version online.
03/30/2007 (9:23 am)
Perhaps I have the term wrong, but this is what I mean by instancing.My experience from this is from unreal engine, you made the levels from BSP, the details you added with static meshes, you would add say one SM, say a pillar, say you had like 100 of these in your level, rather than treat it as 100 models, it is one model and it remembers its locations that this one object is at, making it much smaller in the size of the map, as its not having to store 100 objects, but 1 object and its locations, it made the map sizes much smaller, now I don't know if torque can do that, I hope so because if one made a game for xbox arcade then you a smaller file size would be of help to keep the download small, same goes for selling a PC version online.
#10
With TGE, that's the only instancing, with TGE-A, they will also be managed as render batches, which makes the pipeline to the video card much less loaded.
03/30/2007 (2:57 pm)
If it's not physically part of your mesh (isn't modelled with faces within your CSG editor), then it's a dts shape, and dts shapes are instanced in memory. They would be placed "within" the structure by the in game world editor, not as part of the modelling application that are on the market today.With TGE, that's the only instancing, with TGE-A, they will also be managed as render batches, which makes the pipeline to the video card much less loaded.
#11
03/30/2007 (3:43 pm)
Id put that simpler Stephen, I dont think many Torque users will of got a word of that.
#12
03/31/2007 (7:54 pm)
Sorry, but I honestly don't see how I could be "simpler" with my description?
#13
your saying, dts is instanced, but bsp isn't.
I am going to build some large cliffs, some will be walked on, some are not walked on and are for visual, do I make these as bsp or dts, I noticed on the latest newsletter that had news on constructor
http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/constructor
The term static mesh and UT4k's use of SM was used, It kind of said they are the same thing as what Torque is using here, I have years of experience in the unreal engines, If we was making cliffs we would do them as SM, what would we use for cliffs and cliff mountain passes here, is it the same as a SM would be in the unreal engines and we use dts.
That big church on the Constructor page, is that BSP or DTS, or both, it looks like BSP and all one mesh, not lots of brushes, In UT4k you would build it from adding and subtraction brushes, a very basic shell, any details, like any at all would be SM, unreal is unique in its subtraction brushes, I never used Quake, but it seems like they used lots off bushes like for every wall and floor, a bit sloppy that, not as quick as unreal editor and the subtraction brush, now for Torque we could build that church from all one mesh, or even divide it into say 3 parts, or we could have every piece is separate, so every pillar or wall is a separate brush, so Im just wondering what's the deal here, Id take a map apart if it was like the UT4k community, but here there is no maps, I look in the snap shots and there isn't a whole lot to grab, unlike unreal which has hundreds of maps and levels, if someone could either clear up how Torque works or link me to a map I can dissect it, I dont want to start work modeling hundreds of buildings and have them be wasted, hence how an engine handles things is very important to me.
04/04/2007 (10:57 am)
Ahh I got ya Stephen, I have a thousand things to do and my mind goes everyplace sometimes,your saying, dts is instanced, but bsp isn't.
I am going to build some large cliffs, some will be walked on, some are not walked on and are for visual, do I make these as bsp or dts, I noticed on the latest newsletter that had news on constructor
http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/constructor
The term static mesh and UT4k's use of SM was used, It kind of said they are the same thing as what Torque is using here, I have years of experience in the unreal engines, If we was making cliffs we would do them as SM, what would we use for cliffs and cliff mountain passes here, is it the same as a SM would be in the unreal engines and we use dts.
That big church on the Constructor page, is that BSP or DTS, or both, it looks like BSP and all one mesh, not lots of brushes, In UT4k you would build it from adding and subtraction brushes, a very basic shell, any details, like any at all would be SM, unreal is unique in its subtraction brushes, I never used Quake, but it seems like they used lots off bushes like for every wall and floor, a bit sloppy that, not as quick as unreal editor and the subtraction brush, now for Torque we could build that church from all one mesh, or even divide it into say 3 parts, or we could have every piece is separate, so every pillar or wall is a separate brush, so Im just wondering what's the deal here, Id take a map apart if it was like the UT4k community, but here there is no maps, I look in the snap shots and there isn't a whole lot to grab, unlike unreal which has hundreds of maps and levels, if someone could either clear up how Torque works or link me to a map I can dissect it, I dont want to start work modeling hundreds of buildings and have them be wasted, hence how an engine handles things is very important to me.
Torque Owner Aaron E
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TGE (or legacy terrain in TGEA) can be infinitely repeated/tiled or not if you desire.
I think the default size for heightmaps is 256x256. I don't know of a way to change that.
Squaresize values change the distance that one hightmap terrain will cover. You lose detail with higher squaresizes. Drastic squaresize changes (from the default 8) may also affect water patches as well, but I can't say for sure.
Someone has applied normal maps to TGEA terrains. I don't know if their technique is a public resource, but it might be.
Yes, see the squaresize question above.
There are some tutorials on TDN for registered owners of the engine. There are very few public tutorials for TGEA at the moment. Videos might be harder to find, but I could be wrong.
There are other engines out there that may do somethings better, but I'm really happy I'm here. I've been using TGE and TGEA for almost two years and I enjoy both Torque and the community at Garage Games.