Game Development Community

TGE poorly documented

by Arild Pihl · in Torque Game Engine · 03/28/2007 (4:33 pm) · 83 replies

I'm hoping someone out there can prove me wrong, but in my opinion Torque is very poorly documented. The only documentation that came with the engine, are scattered comments in the code and scripts, and a 16 page PDF file that tells us how to create a terrain, put a Torque logo in, and how to make a script that enables the player to pick up the logo. The tutorial also mentions that the onCollision function is automatically called by the engine when two objects collides. But are there other functions like this? I've been searching for a complete list of all functions, parameters and stuff like that, but as far as I can tell, there aren't any. I have bought both "3D game programming all in one" and "The game programmers guide to Torque", but I'm still having problems finding the information I need. I feel both these books have a "If you write this, this will happen"-approach to teaching. "The game programmers guide to Torque" does have an appendix on the disc that comes with it, and the "Quick Reference" is the closest to any proper documentation I've found. The TDN that I've supposedly paid $150 to, is in fact only partly completed, and in addition, on the top is a note that says it "will all be replaced with content from Elixir very soon. So it is unnecessary to further expand this article.". This comment is dated October 2005. Not really impressive either. The link to the Elixir page works, but links to an article about why Elixir was chose over Wiki.

Of course we have these forums. But after reading them, I often encounter people with questions like "Where are the engine, I can only find the Torque Demo", and this tells me that there definitely are others out there that could use better documentation too.

The problem I have now is WheeledVehicle. I have made a new simple DTS object to use as a Vehicle, and another one for the tire. Then I changed the car.cs file so that these two objects where loaded in stead, hoping that it would be that easy. But no. This resulted in the car bouncing around uncontrollably, so I started changing the variables in the WheeledWehicleTire, WheeledWehicleSpring and WeeledVehicleData. But that only resulted in either more uncontrollable bouncing/shaking, the car bouncing off into outer space, or the car actually falling straight through the terrain and continuing down. And since I have no documentation, I have very little idea what the variables should be set to! For instance, one article I have read says that the "antiSwayForce = 1.0" will make the car come to a standstill in one second. But I have read through other peoples examples, and found values as high as 3000!

Hopefully someone will understand my frustration and give me a link or a file, or something magical that I must have overseen while reading books and forums for the past month or so.

Any help will be greatly appreciated!

A.P.

About the author

Recent Threads

Thread is locked
#21
03/31/2007 (6:26 am)
.
#22
03/31/2007 (8:00 am)
Again, you've made some valid statements Berserk.

Yes I do like Garage Games. I understand English is not your first language (even though you speak it better than I speak my second and third languages), but you use some terms that are close to what you mean, but are slightly misleading. I get your points, though. Still, "hired" is not the most accurate term to describe my position.

Lazy Attempt at finding a definition to "hire"

We aren't receiving anything from GG. No payment, no associate status, not even acknowledgment or praise. As stated earlier, this project is for the people who have bought the engine and my own team, so if anything, we are "hired" by you (although the only thing we are going to receive is either acknowledgment, praise, or criticism).

I'll gladly post links and help distribute/transmit documents as they are completed. Our opinions obviously differ on what the "problem" is, and that's OK. The results will remain the same, none the less. Better documentation for those who use the engine.
#23
03/31/2007 (10:04 am)
Quote:Mike, no you are incorrect with Irrlicht. Maybe you're confusing with OGRE?

Actually, you need to go check out your information. Irrlicht is only a graphics engine. There are a couple of people building a game engine on it, but Irrlicht is only the graphics. I've been working with irrlicht for over 4 years.
#24
03/31/2007 (3:44 pm)
.
#25
03/31/2007 (5:51 pm)
Ok, I understand you now. :-) You are correct. Sound?? Not the last time I looked.
I did prototype a game in Irrlicht tho. It's super simple collision worked fine, but the other things I wanted I had to add. (physics engine, sound, sctipting, etc...) All of which Torque has.
Ok, back to the topic of documentation.
I'm glad someone has taken it upon themselves to draw up some docs. The ones linked from this thread are great and easy to understand. Thankyou. :)
#26
04/01/2007 (8:13 am)
.
#27
04/01/2007 (8:25 am)
@Berserk: It is really difficult to see why you continue to pour your time and effort into GarageGames/Torque as it clearly doesn't satisfy your requirements or make you at all happy.

@Arild: The source code is heavily documented, there are multiple books available, there are these forums for getting answers to just about anything, there are the existing docs and the TDN, there are a pile of code resources available, there are Starter Kits for further examples, and there are even Bootcamps available... the situation is far from "poor".
#28
04/01/2007 (2:03 pm)
.
#29
04/01/2007 (7:29 pm)
Just thought I would note that 3Impact does not include the source.
#30
04/02/2007 (5:36 am)
I've been trying to evaluate 3d game engines for several weeks now and lack of adequate documentation is the norm. You have hobbyists who end up building something that turns out to be saleable and they know the code and system so well, any documentation they do produce is generally incomprehensible to newcomers. Not unusual, I've been guilty of it myself over the past 30 years of coding.

My problem with this engine is that there is no way to really evaulate it. We get a premade game to look at...uh, ok, that's nice. :) What is needed is either a version that is time limited or won't produce an executable, whatever method works best for the developers. There is no way I'd buy this software without being actually able to use it and see how it truly works. I don't buy vaporware or get seduced by flashy ad talk or glitzy demos. :)

Torque sounds good but then a couple dozen other engines have equally good advertising copy so it is tough to know. Maybe Torque will come out with a version that can be used for evaluation someday.
#31
04/02/2007 (9:14 am)
Everyone please keep in mind the purpose of this thread is to talk about what can be done, by those who are trying, to better the documentation of the Torque products. A free for all "bitch fest" about what is wrong with the engine, or what other engines do better, is not constructive or asked for.

There are other such threads, but to dilute the spirit of this thread just makes it harder for us to help out.
#32
04/02/2007 (11:35 am)
.
#33
04/02/2007 (11:38 am)
.
#34
04/02/2007 (12:32 pm)
@Berserk
Yeah, I noted that you weren't sure about whether there was source or not so I thought I would clarify it.
#35
04/03/2007 (12:35 pm)
S. Salter,
I doubt that GG will release a "non buildable" version of TGE. It's too easy to find what's missing and add it in to build that exe.
What GG Needs is to have a page where it shows what all is inside the engine. (classes) so that newcommers can decide wether or not this engine will suit their needs. I decided based on the games that had already been made using it. Some fit the genre I was looking at. Torque is a great "general purpose/fps" engine. It can be extended by any of the many many mods available for free. (or you can write your own)
#36
04/03/2007 (1:30 pm)
I seems to me that all the people complaining are just to lazy to look. I've heard this conversation 50 to 100 times in a row and then someone points them in the right direction.
#37
04/04/2007 (12:12 am)
.
#38
04/04/2007 (3:53 am)
Having just purchased TGE & TGEA, I can would also say the documentation is confusing until you realise that the engine you purchase is just the framework and it's up to you to build up your knowledge by prototyping changes in script and/or c++. Having the book is a must though.

However I do have one gripe which is to do with the camera, usually the first thing anyone wants to change. If marbleBlast took so long to get the camera right, then why doesn't Torque come with fully equipped cameras for GodView etc? Also, TGEA has bug fixes for it that TGE 1.5 doesn't (using position instead of renderposition to fix the jitter). All this makes for added confusion, but guess what. I'm having to learn how torque script and C++ can integrate together, what you need to change to alter startup, and how to add new camera types for myself. So even though it's taken an extra week, the joy is in the making.

I'm really excited about getting back to Torque (I gave up on it a few years ago) and have dropped Ogre(with it's wonderful material/shader system) as my engine choice

just my 2cents worth...
#39
04/04/2007 (11:34 am)
.
#40
04/08/2007 (3:53 am)
The core of the problem with the people who have commented on this forum is unfulfilled expectations. It is understandable that newcomers to Torque would have a reasonable expectation that the software/engine that they purchased would have effective documentation that would help them get started.

These expectations may include something similar to a format used by other software products such as 3D modelling programs and general office type applications - which are very comprehensive.

The difference here though, is that the excellent documentation provided by these 'closed source' software products include the cost of providing that accompanying documentation. Torque does not. TGE does not
pretend to offer a 'Programmer's Reference Manual' and 'Users Manual'. You have to buy other text books separately or troll through the TDN and find what you need. This product is really for individuals with a technical mind who can analyse and solve significant logical problems including tracking down additional information needed to solve a problem (graphical in nature in this context of course).

The fault here is jointly with GG and the buyers of their engine products. GG could be a bit more helpful for newcomers by perhaps adding a paragraph in their advertising pages mentioning what purchasers should expect from their products, and what NOT TO EXPECT.

And with buyers, it is reasonable to expect that you would firstly 'shop' around for other competing products (3D engines) beforehand and then make your decision to buy based on your research findings. If price is your criteria, the $100 for full source code of an AAA rated engine should tell you that you won't get what a competitor's $1000 engine would provide.