It's Obvious That We Need (I Need) A "Basic Guide...
by Michael Hense · in Torque Game Engine · 06/28/2002 (7:18 am) · 38 replies
... To Programming The Torque Engine"
Look at all of the questions regarding fundamental apects of Torque development posted here.
Forget the Realm Wars enhancements right now... Realm Wars, as it is now, is a great demo of Torque's capabilities.
Put all that talent to work on writing a usefull Guide, something someone can look at and understand the basics Torque Game Development...
Start with something like... setting up your 'Basic Empty World', then 'Adding Elements To The World', then 'Animating Elements', then 'I/O, Mouse, Keyboard, Etc'...
Right now I'm up against a brick wall... the whole concept of stripping out existing game elements and replacing them with your own new stuff is ok, but where do you start??
I've managed to glean a lil info from the forums and all over the web, but so far, zilch... it just doesn't come together.
Something like this shouldn't take too long to do... put up a section of the forum specific to this and post each chapter as it is completed. It doesn't have to be totally comprehensive, just the fundamentals... the first chapters could be done in a matter of days...
I don't wanna sound like a spoiled sport here, but I've busted my a$$ going through all the disparate notes and stuff, and I've bothered almost all of the guys/gals here who have generously taken the time to explain stuff to me... and so far, all that I can do is add a few static elements to the Realm Wars Demo..
You have a potential winner here... but without a solid foundation to build upon, only the coders who are already familiar with Torque (V12) will ever get anything done, and the whole ball of wax will fall by the wayside, along with a lot of other well intentioned projects.
Please... consider this request...
--Mike
Look at all of the questions regarding fundamental apects of Torque development posted here.
Forget the Realm Wars enhancements right now... Realm Wars, as it is now, is a great demo of Torque's capabilities.
Put all that talent to work on writing a usefull Guide, something someone can look at and understand the basics Torque Game Development...
Start with something like... setting up your 'Basic Empty World', then 'Adding Elements To The World', then 'Animating Elements', then 'I/O, Mouse, Keyboard, Etc'...
Right now I'm up against a brick wall... the whole concept of stripping out existing game elements and replacing them with your own new stuff is ok, but where do you start??
I've managed to glean a lil info from the forums and all over the web, but so far, zilch... it just doesn't come together.
Something like this shouldn't take too long to do... put up a section of the forum specific to this and post each chapter as it is completed. It doesn't have to be totally comprehensive, just the fundamentals... the first chapters could be done in a matter of days...
I don't wanna sound like a spoiled sport here, but I've busted my a$$ going through all the disparate notes and stuff, and I've bothered almost all of the guys/gals here who have generously taken the time to explain stuff to me... and so far, all that I can do is add a few static elements to the Realm Wars Demo..
You have a potential winner here... but without a solid foundation to build upon, only the coders who are already familiar with Torque (V12) will ever get anything done, and the whole ball of wax will fall by the wayside, along with a lot of other well intentioned projects.
Please... consider this request...
--Mike
#2
Torque is a huge beast (as you have figured out), and it is also very complex and interconnected. For example, to add a new vehicle, one needs to use Milkshape/3D Studio MAX, the proper exporter, as well as write the script level glue to get in in game.
Certainly, some of that documentation already exists, in the form of tutorials/resources. Making general documentation would be nice, but I don't know how helpful it would end up, as most people seem to be thinking about games that require at least some modification of the engine code, and that is not an easy task.
Of course, if you wanted to start working on some sort of documentation, I'm sure people around here would help you with the parts you don't (currently) understand. Why don't you whip up a basic outline for a few of the chapters you propose and post to the Torque Documentation project forum and see if people will fill in a few paragraphs?
Josh
06/28/2002 (8:11 am)
Producing that sort of documentation is by no means "Easy", nor would it just take a few days.Torque is a huge beast (as you have figured out), and it is also very complex and interconnected. For example, to add a new vehicle, one needs to use Milkshape/3D Studio MAX, the proper exporter, as well as write the script level glue to get in in game.
Certainly, some of that documentation already exists, in the form of tutorials/resources. Making general documentation would be nice, but I don't know how helpful it would end up, as most people seem to be thinking about games that require at least some modification of the engine code, and that is not an easy task.
Of course, if you wanted to start working on some sort of documentation, I'm sure people around here would help you with the parts you don't (currently) understand. Why don't you whip up a basic outline for a few of the chapters you propose and post to the Torque Documentation project forum and see if people will fill in a few paragraphs?
Josh
#3
Like you said, the system is a complicated beast... imagine what it looks like from my perspective, or from the perspective of anyone new to the system.
I'm not asking for a detailed programmers reference doc... I'm not asking for a step by step guide to scripting... all that can be picked up from the existing stuff out available... I'm just requesting a piece by piece outline of some of the basic fundamentals as described above be documented somewhere...
Once the basic concepts are understood, I would be more than happy to plunge into the waters and contribute to the documentation pool... as a matter of fact, I feel that it would be my duty to put something back as sort of repayment for the generous assistance I've received from the experienced users here on the forum.
But the excuse that documentation on the fundamentals of the system does not exist, while there are resources being allocated to enhance the gameplay of the demo app... well, that just doesn't fly as far as I'm concerned. Building a solid foundation from which the people who will providing an essential element in the business plan layed out (as far as I understand it) would seem to be a higher priority than enhancing an already impressive demo.
I do have a little exposure to large scale programming projects, so I do appreciate some of the work involved in bringing something like this to a certain level... but it seems as if the current approach is a lil backwards.
Right now, instead of starting from the ground up, and building an assembly based on a solid foundation, it seems as if one would have to look at an already constructed assembly, glean through a lot of disparate references, figure out the entire blueprint on your own... then figure out the correct way to tear down a part of the assembly and rebuild a new one...
... more than just a little challenge given the current state of things.
There are certain fundamental concepts of working with the Torque engine that must be understood... and the new people weren't around in the beginning and can't be expected to know these things... and to be honest, they are not documented anywhere.
--Mike
06/28/2002 (8:25 am)
I can understand and appreciate the daunting task facing those who are driving this project, especially when it comes to writing up documentation.Like you said, the system is a complicated beast... imagine what it looks like from my perspective, or from the perspective of anyone new to the system.
I'm not asking for a detailed programmers reference doc... I'm not asking for a step by step guide to scripting... all that can be picked up from the existing stuff out available... I'm just requesting a piece by piece outline of some of the basic fundamentals as described above be documented somewhere...
Once the basic concepts are understood, I would be more than happy to plunge into the waters and contribute to the documentation pool... as a matter of fact, I feel that it would be my duty to put something back as sort of repayment for the generous assistance I've received from the experienced users here on the forum.
But the excuse that documentation on the fundamentals of the system does not exist, while there are resources being allocated to enhance the gameplay of the demo app... well, that just doesn't fly as far as I'm concerned. Building a solid foundation from which the people who will providing an essential element in the business plan layed out (as far as I understand it) would seem to be a higher priority than enhancing an already impressive demo.
I do have a little exposure to large scale programming projects, so I do appreciate some of the work involved in bringing something like this to a certain level... but it seems as if the current approach is a lil backwards.
Right now, instead of starting from the ground up, and building an assembly based on a solid foundation, it seems as if one would have to look at an already constructed assembly, glean through a lot of disparate references, figure out the entire blueprint on your own... then figure out the correct way to tear down a part of the assembly and rebuild a new one...
... more than just a little challenge given the current state of things.
There are certain fundamental concepts of working with the Torque engine that must be understood... and the new people weren't around in the beginning and can't be expected to know these things... and to be honest, they are not documented anywhere.
--Mike
#4
Getting models into the existing framework is not what I'm talking about. With the availble examples and some help from the members on the forum, that aspect was easy enough to do...
... this is not what I am talking about.
Lemme explain...
I recently ran across a post about adding a new basic class to the code and how to expose it to the scripting engine (still a lil vague on this)... three weeks or so it took me to run up on this...
Another example... It was just last week that I was even aware that a console exists. While this might have been obvious to some people, how was I expected to know this?
Just because Doom/Quake has a console, was I too assume that Torque also has one (to be honest, I did feel kinda dumb not looking for something like this, but come on now, I never played Tribes)?
Look at the questions posted here about Animation, Adding Shapes, Datablocks... this sorta stuff is all inter-related, and essential knowledge necessary to programming the engine.
Just the basic concepts... and how they relate... thats all I need.
--Mike
06/28/2002 (8:45 am)
Josh...Getting models into the existing framework is not what I'm talking about. With the availble examples and some help from the members on the forum, that aspect was easy enough to do...
... this is not what I am talking about.
Lemme explain...
I recently ran across a post about adding a new basic class to the code and how to expose it to the scripting engine (still a lil vague on this)... three weeks or so it took me to run up on this...
Another example... It was just last week that I was even aware that a console exists. While this might have been obvious to some people, how was I expected to know this?
Just because Doom/Quake has a console, was I too assume that Torque also has one (to be honest, I did feel kinda dumb not looking for something like this, but come on now, I never played Tribes)?
Look at the questions posted here about Animation, Adding Shapes, Datablocks... this sorta stuff is all inter-related, and essential knowledge necessary to programming the engine.
Just the basic concepts... and how they relate... thats all I need.
--Mike
#5
There is also already a huge amount of documentation linked on these pages.
06/28/2002 (8:57 am)
Michael, have you looked over the engine_overview.txt file? Although I think the examples could be beefed up, it's a great starting point. There is also already a huge amount of documentation linked on these pages.
#7
06/29/2002 (11:01 pm)
actually a very good way to get used to the scripting language use by the torque is to just go to tribes 2 modding sites, and look at thier scripting guides. it's the same language. right down to the extentions, and compiled .dso scripts!
#8
You simply have to be willing to spend the time to look for what it is you need.
The best guide to the engine, is the code itself, if youre unable to read the code, then its a good sign your in too deep.
Fact is, no-one is going to spoon feed information to anyone, especially for torque, unless they get paid. Yes, its complex, yes it could use better documentation (and that is underway) but the fact still remains, no-one can push that knowledge into your brain. Its takes time and effort to become competant at something, persevere and work hard and it WILL become clear.
Phil.
06/30/2002 (1:37 am)
The plain fact that there are many people who are happily getting along with thier projects with maybe the occasional post to a forum for some extra insight seems to show that it IS possible to learn the engine and how it works from the current documentation available.You simply have to be willing to spend the time to look for what it is you need.
The best guide to the engine, is the code itself, if youre unable to read the code, then its a good sign your in too deep.
Fact is, no-one is going to spoon feed information to anyone, especially for torque, unless they get paid. Yes, its complex, yes it could use better documentation (and that is underway) but the fact still remains, no-one can push that knowledge into your brain. Its takes time and effort to become competant at something, persevere and work hard and it WILL become clear.
Phil.
#9
Roaming relentlessly throug the forums is helpful, but it does take time.
As for I, I thought a basic doc covering the aspects of creating a game (rather than a RealmWars mode) would be nice.
An example: I still try and add NPCs to the project I am working on. I thought it might be a simple task with an appropriate documentation (ie: how to add a shape, how to move a shape from the scripts, how to give properties to the shape and how to make it interact with the player. when I say "how", I just mean, what file to edit and basic commands)
Well, I am a newbie still, and I haven't found any way yet to do this properly (all I have now are bots. (but I don't want bots!!)
Anyway, to my mind, the way things are:
"we paid 100$, which is very cheap. In return, we have to dig 70% or more of it by ourselves to understand how it works"
So, provided it is so cheap, can we really complain?
All it means is that it will take time.
But writing such a 3d engine would have taken longer in the long run, so it is a fair deal...
Fortunately, the people of the forums are really kind, and I do really appreciate this.
This was my 2 cents only.
Good luck anyway, Michael. We will need it both ;)
Laurent
06/30/2002 (2:33 am)
I too, think that the documentation is not rich enough.Roaming relentlessly throug the forums is helpful, but it does take time.
As for I, I thought a basic doc covering the aspects of creating a game (rather than a RealmWars mode) would be nice.
An example: I still try and add NPCs to the project I am working on. I thought it might be a simple task with an appropriate documentation (ie: how to add a shape, how to move a shape from the scripts, how to give properties to the shape and how to make it interact with the player. when I say "how", I just mean, what file to edit and basic commands)
Well, I am a newbie still, and I haven't found any way yet to do this properly (all I have now are bots. (but I don't want bots!!)
Anyway, to my mind, the way things are:
"we paid 100$, which is very cheap. In return, we have to dig 70% or more of it by ourselves to understand how it works"
So, provided it is so cheap, can we really complain?
All it means is that it will take time.
But writing such a 3d engine would have taken longer in the long run, so it is a fair deal...
Fortunately, the people of the forums are really kind, and I do really appreciate this.
This was my 2 cents only.
Good luck anyway, Michael. We will need it both ;)
Laurent
#10
ARRRGGGGGGG!!! ##@#$! DA#$$M%Th@#R!! SH^&%%#@@###*&%!@
So, if I read your post right, your opinion is to 'let em eat cake'... or maybe something like 'if they weren't born with the knowledge, then let em rot'.... or maybe the ole 'we got their money, so let em go to hell' dictum would fit better.
I'm just glad that yours is a singlular expression, and that most of the Associate Members, along with the experienced Members here show a little more understanding to the plight of the new torque team member.
You obviously haven't seen the reams of text I downloaded of the past 3 weeks from all sources on the net... I have visited the Tribes sites... way before it was suggested... I have read almost all the docs available here... but I guess that is not what you would call initiative, self motivation, at the very least an interest in this thing...
OK... lets give you the absolute benefit of doubt... lets say that you are even half correct in everything that you've posted so far... is it that far beyond the scope of your professional objective wisdom to even acknowledge the fact that allocating additional resource to enhancing an already feature rich demo, instead of beefing up the programming foundation with a solid set of cohesive documentation would be catering to the apparently Torque coding challenged like myself whom, according to you, must be spoon fed...
I know that I am nothing more than a lowly Torque newbee, and that I don't even deserve the wrath from you, one of the Mighty Gods Of Torque Modding and Programming... so I won't even waste my time trying to open your eyes here.
Just lemme tell ya Phil... for every new member that is allowed to slip through the cracks... for every new member that goes off and licenses A5 game studio, for every new memeber that is dismayed, and goes off to download, compile , and develop with Crystal Space... for every one of these spoon feeders Phil... the people here at Torque loose another possible source of business revenue.
--Mike
06/30/2002 (7:07 am)
Phil: Spoonfed!!! SPOOOOOON-FEDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!ARRRGGGGGGG!!! ##@#$! DA#$$M%Th@#R!! SH^&%%#@@###*&%!@
So, if I read your post right, your opinion is to 'let em eat cake'... or maybe something like 'if they weren't born with the knowledge, then let em rot'.... or maybe the ole 'we got their money, so let em go to hell' dictum would fit better.
I'm just glad that yours is a singlular expression, and that most of the Associate Members, along with the experienced Members here show a little more understanding to the plight of the new torque team member.
You obviously haven't seen the reams of text I downloaded of the past 3 weeks from all sources on the net... I have visited the Tribes sites... way before it was suggested... I have read almost all the docs available here... but I guess that is not what you would call initiative, self motivation, at the very least an interest in this thing...
OK... lets give you the absolute benefit of doubt... lets say that you are even half correct in everything that you've posted so far... is it that far beyond the scope of your professional objective wisdom to even acknowledge the fact that allocating additional resource to enhancing an already feature rich demo, instead of beefing up the programming foundation with a solid set of cohesive documentation would be catering to the apparently Torque coding challenged like myself whom, according to you, must be spoon fed...
I know that I am nothing more than a lowly Torque newbee, and that I don't even deserve the wrath from you, one of the Mighty Gods Of Torque Modding and Programming... so I won't even waste my time trying to open your eyes here.
Just lemme tell ya Phil... for every new member that is allowed to slip through the cracks... for every new member that goes off and licenses A5 game studio, for every new memeber that is dismayed, and goes off to download, compile , and develop with Crystal Space... for every one of these spoon feeders Phil... the people here at Torque loose another possible source of business revenue.
--Mike
#12
Thanks for the suggestion James... I have already found my way over to some of the Tribes coding sites and forums. I figured that since Torque is and outgrowth of the engine that powered Tribes, there may be some usefull info to be gathered there.
It has been kinda helpful, and is definitely a resource to be used.
Laurent:
Yeah, most of the crew here are verrry helpful... I was just a lil taken back by the attitude I got in the above post from Phil Carlysle... Everwhere, every now and then, you find somone who takes his elevated position a lil to seriously, thinks that he has been elevated high enough to rub sholders with the gods. To him, we are nothing but an aggravation...
I have gotten a lot of help from most of the experienced people here, and they are generous with their assistance.
If I can help out with anything, please feel free to ask... as soon as I get in the zone with this thing, I will start work on a 'Torque For Dummies' type of programmers reference... just to clear up some of the vague points for new Torquers joining the fold.
I am approaching a point-of-no-return stage in my sub sim development, and would very much like to market it under the GarageGames banner and develop it based on Torque software Technologies... but I also am proficient in DirectX, conversant in OpenGL, and if all that fails, have everything from the likes of 3DRAD, BlitzBasic, etc to choose from...
... in short, I gotta choose now.
Anyway... good luck also with your development.
--Mike
Thanks Again...
--Mike
06/30/2002 (7:25 am)
James Murray: Thanks for the suggestion James... I have already found my way over to some of the Tribes coding sites and forums. I figured that since Torque is and outgrowth of the engine that powered Tribes, there may be some usefull info to be gathered there.
It has been kinda helpful, and is definitely a resource to be used.
Laurent:
Yeah, most of the crew here are verrry helpful... I was just a lil taken back by the attitude I got in the above post from Phil Carlysle... Everwhere, every now and then, you find somone who takes his elevated position a lil to seriously, thinks that he has been elevated high enough to rub sholders with the gods. To him, we are nothing but an aggravation...
I have gotten a lot of help from most of the experienced people here, and they are generous with their assistance.
If I can help out with anything, please feel free to ask... as soon as I get in the zone with this thing, I will start work on a 'Torque For Dummies' type of programmers reference... just to clear up some of the vague points for new Torquers joining the fold.
I am approaching a point-of-no-return stage in my sub sim development, and would very much like to market it under the GarageGames banner and develop it based on Torque software Technologies... but I also am proficient in DirectX, conversant in OpenGL, and if all that fails, have everything from the likes of 3DRAD, BlitzBasic, etc to choose from...
... in short, I gotta choose now.
Anyway... good luck also with your development.
--Mike
Thanks Again...
--Mike
#13
Yeah, I've read your work... excellent, and most helpful.
Yours was one of the first docs that I went over... please don't feel that the above post was aimed at you, or any of the guys/gals here who have been most generous with their time, patience, and assistance.
--Mike
06/30/2002 (7:27 am)
Hiya Ron...Yeah, I've read your work... excellent, and most helpful.
Yours was one of the first docs that I went over... please don't feel that the above post was aimed at you, or any of the guys/gals here who have been most generous with their time, patience, and assistance.
--Mike
#14
We definitely need a basic guide, but we probably need one for coders, one artists and one scripters. Though I really think anyone consider makeing coding changes should know how to script the engine first.
06/30/2002 (9:08 am)
The Torque project documentation page is where we're trying to pull all the doco together, and hopefully get a clearer idea of where we stand. Jeff wrote up a getting started page, but it doesn't cover actual starting with the code.We definitely need a basic guide, but we probably need one for coders, one artists and one scripters. Though I really think anyone consider makeing coding changes should know how to script the engine first.
#15
We've kind of already been through this issue with you. You don't want documentation, you want hand holding. I know this will make you mad, but we can only do so much. On the one hand we have the high end users screaming at us to add shaders and advanced engine features and on the other hand we have the lower end people screaming at us to hold their hand through every step of making a game.
I don't see it as our responsibility to supply every step of information about how to make a game. We are supplying the basic technologies to help level the playing field for serious indie game developers to create a game. If you want to make a game that is good enough to charge money for, there will be pain involved. We simply cannot hold your hand every step of the way. Even with a powerful engine, it will take time, research, and effort on your part.
If you think that you can make a commercial product that people are willing to pay for by using 3D RAD or the A5 Engine, I think you are mistaken. Those engines do not have the power to do what you want to do. You can have fun and learn about game development, but why not put that same effort into a serious product?
I do hope that our community responds with tutorials and the step by step instructions you are asking for. In fact, if you want to make a name for your self, YOU can lead that effort. GarageGames is four guys, and we simply cannot get you where you want to go, nor do we feel it is our responsibility to do so.
Think of the Torque as something along the lines of a C++ compiler. You know the compiler has the ability to do everything you need it to do because you see performance proof in the marketplace. However, it is up to you to learn it. There are books that promise you can learn C++ in 21 days, there are sites dedicated to teaching you the same thing, there are classes, etc.
I'm sorry, but from what I can see, you are blaming the Torque on the fact that you are having a hard time getting your game going, when, in fact, you may be trying to create a game that is too difficult for you current abilities. You have been working on this project for about a month, and I see screen shots and a lot of progress, yet you are still complaining.
Programming the Torque is not easy, but you can accomplish a lot in a short period of time. We have never said you could make a game in two months or less the way Wild Tangent or RAD does (although I totally disagree that those games are viable commercial games). However, I know it can be done in six months. We have claimed you can create great games, further your resume, and learn about commercial engines, but in none of those claims have we said it would be easy.
Jeff Tunnell GG
06/30/2002 (9:32 am)
Michael,We've kind of already been through this issue with you. You don't want documentation, you want hand holding. I know this will make you mad, but we can only do so much. On the one hand we have the high end users screaming at us to add shaders and advanced engine features and on the other hand we have the lower end people screaming at us to hold their hand through every step of making a game.
I don't see it as our responsibility to supply every step of information about how to make a game. We are supplying the basic technologies to help level the playing field for serious indie game developers to create a game. If you want to make a game that is good enough to charge money for, there will be pain involved. We simply cannot hold your hand every step of the way. Even with a powerful engine, it will take time, research, and effort on your part.
If you think that you can make a commercial product that people are willing to pay for by using 3D RAD or the A5 Engine, I think you are mistaken. Those engines do not have the power to do what you want to do. You can have fun and learn about game development, but why not put that same effort into a serious product?
I do hope that our community responds with tutorials and the step by step instructions you are asking for. In fact, if you want to make a name for your self, YOU can lead that effort. GarageGames is four guys, and we simply cannot get you where you want to go, nor do we feel it is our responsibility to do so.
Think of the Torque as something along the lines of a C++ compiler. You know the compiler has the ability to do everything you need it to do because you see performance proof in the marketplace. However, it is up to you to learn it. There are books that promise you can learn C++ in 21 days, there are sites dedicated to teaching you the same thing, there are classes, etc.
I'm sorry, but from what I can see, you are blaming the Torque on the fact that you are having a hard time getting your game going, when, in fact, you may be trying to create a game that is too difficult for you current abilities. You have been working on this project for about a month, and I see screen shots and a lot of progress, yet you are still complaining.
Programming the Torque is not easy, but you can accomplish a lot in a short period of time. We have never said you could make a game in two months or less the way Wild Tangent or RAD does (although I totally disagree that those games are viable commercial games). However, I know it can be done in six months. We have claimed you can create great games, further your resume, and learn about commercial engines, but in none of those claims have we said it would be easy.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#16
Please don't take this wrong or off the cuff, I just have one comment.
Don't forget about the ladies in the crowd that might be interested in creating games as well. I have read a couple of decent articles from female game developers in the industry.
@Michael
I also agree 100% with the notion of "jumping in feet first". I had no clue what I was getting into when I bought my license, I had my "moments" of grief. Instead of looking to others for information, I dove into the TGE and volunteered to head TGE Documentation project.
Yes, it has been a struggle every single day; but I am light-years ahead of where I was on 2/19/02!!
Do I know it all? nope, I still ask for ideas/information. Like my recent request for info on keyboard/mouse events, just needed a bit more info and a larger BONE to chase.
It can be done, it has been done. YOU can do it if you put the time and effort into it.
-Ron
*EDIT*
Ops!
Four not For, looks like I need new glasses
Sorry about that JT!!!
06/30/2002 (9:51 am)
Jeff,Please don't take this wrong or off the cuff, I just have one comment.
Quote:
GarageGames is four guys,
Don't forget about the ladies in the crowd that might be interested in creating games as well. I have read a couple of decent articles from female game developers in the industry.
@Michael
I also agree 100% with the notion of "jumping in feet first". I had no clue what I was getting into when I bought my license, I had my "moments" of grief. Instead of looking to others for information, I dove into the TGE and volunteered to head TGE Documentation project.
Yes, it has been a struggle every single day; but I am light-years ahead of where I was on 2/19/02!!
Do I know it all? nope, I still ask for ideas/information. Like my recent request for info on keyboard/mouse events, just needed a bit more info and a larger BONE to chase.
It can be done, it has been done. YOU can do it if you put the time and effort into it.
-Ron
*EDIT*
Ops!
Four not For, looks like I need new glasses
Sorry about that JT!!!
#17
GG is literally four guys. Nothing to do with gender, but a numerical statement.
Jeff
06/30/2002 (10:03 am)
Ron,GG is literally four guys. Nothing to do with gender, but a numerical statement.
Jeff
#18
Don't forget about the ladies in the crowd that might be interested in creating games as well. I have read a couple of decent articles from female game developers in the industry.
[/quote]
Jeff's comment was specificaly about GarageGames. So the "four guys" comment was just fine.
Now on the topic of this thread.
I'll have to side with the "We can't spoonfeed" / "We can't hold your hand" side of the arguement.
There is a point where too much information or help will hurt you in the long run as you won't LEARN what the engine really can or can't do. You'll rely on things that someone has said should happen. Sometimes it's better to just try things and have it blow up, then to have someone just give you the solution.
06/30/2002 (10:05 am)
Quote:
Please don't take this wrong or off the cuff, I just have one comment.
[quote]
GarageGames is four guys,
Don't forget about the ladies in the crowd that might be interested in creating games as well. I have read a couple of decent articles from female game developers in the industry.
[/quote]
Jeff's comment was specificaly about GarageGames. So the "four guys" comment was just fine.
Now on the topic of this thread.
I'll have to side with the "We can't spoonfeed" / "We can't hold your hand" side of the arguement.
There is a point where too much information or help will hurt you in the long run as you won't LEARN what the engine really can or can't do. You'll rely on things that someone has said should happen. Sometimes it's better to just try things and have it blow up, then to have someone just give you the solution.
#19
I certainly dont intend to be aloof or preaching, I'd hope that some of the posts I make here can attest to that. If someone has a question I know the answer to, I'll tell them.
But there has to be a specific question. Something like "How do I learn Torque" is always going to get the same reaction, "Spend time with the source and see what it does".
Ive been looking at torque about a year now, I've single stepped a lot of the code reading what it does. I'm still probably 60% into it.
The only approach thats going to work right now, given that there arent (and its unlikely there ever will be complete hand holding docs) is to TRY to do the things you want. If you get into trouble, ask, but at least try.
The thing is, the only document youre really going to get that you can rely on is the code/script itself. This may sound wrong to you, but as you get into programming, you learn to read code, you learn the way typical systems work and it DOES get easier. But that only comes with time and effort.
My main point was that there ARE guys here who are/were in the same position as you and have gotten over the starting hurdles and are being productive. Documentation will help, but experience is better gained by doing something rather than reading about it.
Pick something specific youre trying to do, have a go at completing it, if you hit a bump, ask for help. But at least focus your question to a single problem.
Phil.
06/30/2002 (10:39 am)
Michael,I certainly dont intend to be aloof or preaching, I'd hope that some of the posts I make here can attest to that. If someone has a question I know the answer to, I'll tell them.
But there has to be a specific question. Something like "How do I learn Torque" is always going to get the same reaction, "Spend time with the source and see what it does".
Ive been looking at torque about a year now, I've single stepped a lot of the code reading what it does. I'm still probably 60% into it.
The only approach thats going to work right now, given that there arent (and its unlikely there ever will be complete hand holding docs) is to TRY to do the things you want. If you get into trouble, ask, but at least try.
The thing is, the only document youre really going to get that you can rely on is the code/script itself. This may sound wrong to you, but as you get into programming, you learn to read code, you learn the way typical systems work and it DOES get easier. But that only comes with time and effort.
My main point was that there ARE guys here who are/were in the same position as you and have gotten over the starting hurdles and are being productive. Documentation will help, but experience is better gained by doing something rather than reading about it.
Pick something specific youre trying to do, have a go at completing it, if you hit a bump, ask for help. But at least focus your question to a single problem.
Phil.
#20
First its spoon feeding... now its handholding... OK... you and Phil win.
Perhaps you two are right... maybe I'm trying to develop a game that is to complicated for my present abilities ( a few moving models, tied to some already done before physics logic, with a couple of animated md2 type actors running around... well, I gues that's just past my abilities)...
And I aint blaming nobody for nothin... I came into this with my eyes wide open...
Whatever your assessment, I'm not gonna sit here arguing with you... this is not what I licensed Torque for.
In the light of all this, I will have to shelve all current Torque activities, and pick up where I left off, with a less 'professional' development environment... until a time comes I grow a little more brain matter to be able pick up on the Torque methodolgy with a lil less whining (although at 50 years old, I'm not so sure if there's much more left for me to grow)... or when a lil more solid documentation comes available...
Well... this has been fun...
--Mike Hense
06/30/2002 (11:11 am)
Very Well Jeff... Phil...First its spoon feeding... now its handholding... OK... you and Phil win.
Perhaps you two are right... maybe I'm trying to develop a game that is to complicated for my present abilities ( a few moving models, tied to some already done before physics logic, with a couple of animated md2 type actors running around... well, I gues that's just past my abilities)...
And I aint blaming nobody for nothin... I came into this with my eyes wide open...
Whatever your assessment, I'm not gonna sit here arguing with you... this is not what I licensed Torque for.
In the light of all this, I will have to shelve all current Torque activities, and pick up where I left off, with a less 'professional' development environment... until a time comes I grow a little more brain matter to be able pick up on the Torque methodolgy with a lil less whining (although at 50 years old, I'm not so sure if there's much more left for me to grow)... or when a lil more solid documentation comes available...
Well... this has been fun...
--Mike Hense
Torque 3D Owner Robert Blanchet Jr.
It's not a question of if we are doing it, it's more along the lines of when we get done doing it. I don't see documenting this engine as any easy task.
Things take time, and you are probably frustrated, but I think everyone here was at that point one time. I think the best advice anyone could give you right now is to just dig in. Start at the scripts and learn from the existing script code. With that in mind, you can begin to explore where and how the scripts drive the simulation and how the hardcode eventually interacts with those scripts.
Just by reading the forums you can gain knowledge of how the Torque Engine really works. There are a lot of very bright people here that are extremly willing to lend a hand. I don't think you give the forums credit enough. There is a wealth of information about the Engine in the very parts of this site. Couple that with all of the code snipits and tutorials people produce on a regular bases I think you will find that these forums and resources provide knowledge above and beyond that which you would find in any documentation.
There are people working on documentation though. But it will take time. Script documentation already is a great resource to have, especially if you're new to it. The Garage Game staff are adding documents as much as they can as well, and they are even in the process of trying commenting the engine itself.
I myself don't fancy reading that much :) so I tend to just dig in. I believe hands on experience is the best way to learn. Maybe you don't, but you should still try and put forth the effort in learning how the engine works on your own, and just ask here in the forums if you don't understand something.