Be original!
by Joseph Hocking · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 06/19/2002 (7:45 am) · 20 replies
Oh for Pete's sake, I am really disappointed by this forum. Refer to this line in the forum's description:
"Game design has stagnated. Ideas are cheap, so why do we keep seeing the same games?"
But exactly as Jeff had pointed out in a previous message posting, all I see are the same old thing. I read through the Game Ideas forum expecting/hoping to see some really unique ideas to help spark my own creativity. But instead I see page after page of Massively Multiplayer games, RPGs, Wargames, Skateboarding games, and First Person Shooters. In other words, already way oversaturated genres that a) stifle creativity by their very presence and b) none of us has any real hope of making a mark in.
Also, any game idea based on an existing property (DragonballZ for example) is by definition not original. That is not thinking about game design, that is being a fanboy and figuring, "I like DragonballZ, so I think a game about DragonballZ would be cool."
Oh, and this may just be my opinion, but a good litmus test for if your idea is original is if you think the best subject line to describe it is "[existing game whatever] type game."
I really didn't mean to pick on anyone specific in my little rant so I'm sorry, but I just couldn't help it. This is clearly a problem for the entire GG community. Heck, like I said above I find I need help sparking my creativity. For that purpose, here's a great site:
http://www.the-underdogs.org/
True, it lists already existing games. But unlike MMORPGs and FPSs, these are all solid games which for whatever reason never hit it big. Thus, they represent truly interesting game design and/or games in unfilled niches which "failed" (some of those "failures" were still pretty damn successful in my eyes) due to bad timing, bad marketing, or some combination.
-Joe Hocking
www.3darteest.com
"Game design has stagnated. Ideas are cheap, so why do we keep seeing the same games?"
But exactly as Jeff had pointed out in a previous message posting, all I see are the same old thing. I read through the Game Ideas forum expecting/hoping to see some really unique ideas to help spark my own creativity. But instead I see page after page of Massively Multiplayer games, RPGs, Wargames, Skateboarding games, and First Person Shooters. In other words, already way oversaturated genres that a) stifle creativity by their very presence and b) none of us has any real hope of making a mark in.
Also, any game idea based on an existing property (DragonballZ for example) is by definition not original. That is not thinking about game design, that is being a fanboy and figuring, "I like DragonballZ, so I think a game about DragonballZ would be cool."
Oh, and this may just be my opinion, but a good litmus test for if your idea is original is if you think the best subject line to describe it is "[existing game whatever] type game."
I really didn't mean to pick on anyone specific in my little rant so I'm sorry, but I just couldn't help it. This is clearly a problem for the entire GG community. Heck, like I said above I find I need help sparking my creativity. For that purpose, here's a great site:
http://www.the-underdogs.org/
True, it lists already existing games. But unlike MMORPGs and FPSs, these are all solid games which for whatever reason never hit it big. Thus, they represent truly interesting game design and/or games in unfilled niches which "failed" (some of those "failures" were still pretty damn successful in my eyes) due to bad timing, bad marketing, or some combination.
-Joe Hocking
www.3darteest.com
About the author
#2
As for why I want to start this discussion up again, from some of the ideas posted since that discussion basically ended clearly the message has not actually been conveyed.
Also, unrelated to the first part of this message but related to the thread, I find it interesting that when presenting a unique idea like the Stick Figure game the person felt the need to tell people, "Just hear me out." That to me is also reflective of the unfortunate stifling of creativity in a forum which is supposed to be all about creativity.
06/19/2002 (8:08 am)
Sigh. If you actually read my message, I admit up front that I also need help coming up with truly original ideas. My main point is that people really should try a little harder to come up with an interesting idea rather than waste time posting their "idea" for the next Tolkeinesque roleplaying game.As for why I want to start this discussion up again, from some of the ideas posted since that discussion basically ended clearly the message has not actually been conveyed.
Also, unrelated to the first part of this message but related to the thread, I find it interesting that when presenting a unique idea like the Stick Figure game the person felt the need to tell people, "Just hear me out." That to me is also reflective of the unfortunate stifling of creativity in a forum which is supposed to be all about creativity.
#3
this shouldn't be the point. Most things have been done before anyway. One can't invent the wheel again. All that should matter is that the game is fun to play (preferably so fun it becomes addictive)
06/19/2002 (8:34 am)
aaargh again that original/non original idea - crap...this shouldn't be the point. Most things have been done before anyway. One can't invent the wheel again. All that should matter is that the game is fun to play (preferably so fun it becomes addictive)
#4
While some of us --a large number of who have probably been playing games since alot of those titles on Underdogs were new releases-- can see the beauty of (for instance) Jeff's Bird Flight Simulator idea, it doesn't butter the FPS or Tactical Shooter crowds bread.
With Tribes2 being, one flavor of FPS Apotheosis, it shouldn't surprise anyone that alot of the TGE crowd are here to make an FPS, or an FPS with vehicles, or an FPS RPG.
Folks saying things like,"hear me out" is just another way of saying,"this may be crazy". It's one of the things that people who think they've got a good idea on their hands say. Just like people have begun to say 'rather' --in place of some less poncey adjective-- alot around here since that Carmack interview made the rounds last month.
Sigh or no, Steffan's spot on. Several people have already waved or are waving the originality flag and have the chops to back up their waving. Some others don't.
It's clear that this is an area of concern for you, and I really couldn't be happier that people are thinking about originality, but without contributing something new to the discourse how can it help?
How to proceed... we could host a weekly chat round-table on this topic. Someone could present their idea to a group in chat, and then discussion could follow. I'd happily host such a meeting on the badlands chat server, or we could rely on good ol' IRC.
06/19/2002 (8:49 am)
There are people out there who don't care to innovate in the area of Game Design. It's not a concern of theirs, and may never be. They may have ideas for features, or particularly elegant plot points, or not.While some of us --a large number of who have probably been playing games since alot of those titles on Underdogs were new releases-- can see the beauty of (for instance) Jeff's Bird Flight Simulator idea, it doesn't butter the FPS or Tactical Shooter crowds bread.
With Tribes2 being, one flavor of FPS Apotheosis, it shouldn't surprise anyone that alot of the TGE crowd are here to make an FPS, or an FPS with vehicles, or an FPS RPG.
Folks saying things like,"hear me out" is just another way of saying,"this may be crazy". It's one of the things that people who think they've got a good idea on their hands say. Just like people have begun to say 'rather' --in place of some less poncey adjective-- alot around here since that Carmack interview made the rounds last month.
Sigh or no, Steffan's spot on. Several people have already waved or are waving the originality flag and have the chops to back up their waving. Some others don't.
It's clear that this is an area of concern for you, and I really couldn't be happier that people are thinking about originality, but without contributing something new to the discourse how can it help?
How to proceed... we could host a weekly chat round-table on this topic. Someone could present their idea to a group in chat, and then discussion could follow. I'd happily host such a meeting on the badlands chat server, or we could rely on good ol' IRC.
#5
If originality matters so much to you, do something about it! This thread/topic should be left alone. Liking or disliking originality is a personal preference and one that can be thrashed do death until Kingdom Come without changing peoples' minds.
Just let it lie.
06/19/2002 (9:05 am)
Originality shouldn't matter. I'm working on a WW2 team game. It's been done before several times, and much better than my attempt. So what? I'm having fun, I'm enjoying myself. If originality counted, we wouldn't have Quake 2, Quake 3, Doom 2, Doom 3, the various incarnations of SWAT and Rainbow Six, John Madden's football games, the range of FIFA games from EA, The Need for Speed series and so on. Does that matter? I don't think so.If originality matters so much to you, do something about it! This thread/topic should be left alone. Liking or disliking originality is a personal preference and one that can be thrashed do death until Kingdom Come without changing peoples' minds.
Just let it lie.
#6
this shouldn't be the point. Most things have been done before anyway. One can't invent the wheel again. All that should matter is that the game is fun to play (preferably so fun it becomes addictive)"
Ward, i couldn't agree more. Just because a concept has been done before doesnt mean it can't be explored further. I buy unique and original games but i also bought every Close combat game, ill buy the Op Flashpoint sequels, Im really looking forward to downloading Americas Army, the fact is these games keep me playing hour for hour more than any other type. Why, Im a wargame/ military history fanatic. I can't help it. Many others are also. I'll never tire of seeing these games because I know so much more can be added to them. Though Im not a massive fan, Im sure the same goes for the fantasy themed ones. Originality should not be the aim in itself, thats a recipe for disaster. Exploring your theme fully, adding to it your own unique twist on what you think it should have and polishing it until it sparkles should be the aim of the game. If it so happens that your concept is a new one, great, but it doesn't make a superb wargame/ fantasy game whatever any less valid. Would you slate Mario and Zelda for not being original concepts? No, because whereas the concept is well established, the creator clearly loves the concept, hes adding his own twists, and polished it until it truly glows.
BTW Mike, Im always very keen on a WW2 team based game, any links so that i can look at its progress? Need a hand with any 2D art? let me know :)
06/19/2002 (9:16 am)
"aaargh again that original/non original idea - crap... this shouldn't be the point. Most things have been done before anyway. One can't invent the wheel again. All that should matter is that the game is fun to play (preferably so fun it becomes addictive)"
Ward, i couldn't agree more. Just because a concept has been done before doesnt mean it can't be explored further. I buy unique and original games but i also bought every Close combat game, ill buy the Op Flashpoint sequels, Im really looking forward to downloading Americas Army, the fact is these games keep me playing hour for hour more than any other type. Why, Im a wargame/ military history fanatic. I can't help it. Many others are also. I'll never tire of seeing these games because I know so much more can be added to them. Though Im not a massive fan, Im sure the same goes for the fantasy themed ones. Originality should not be the aim in itself, thats a recipe for disaster. Exploring your theme fully, adding to it your own unique twist on what you think it should have and polishing it until it sparkles should be the aim of the game. If it so happens that your concept is a new one, great, but it doesn't make a superb wargame/ fantasy game whatever any less valid. Would you slate Mario and Zelda for not being original concepts? No, because whereas the concept is well established, the creator clearly loves the concept, hes adding his own twists, and polished it until it truly glows.
BTW Mike, Im always very keen on a WW2 team based game, any links so that i can look at its progress? Need a hand with any 2D art? let me know :)
#7
BTW: email on its way in a few minutes. :)
06/19/2002 (9:31 am)
John, I have to agree with you. Although the games I play have probably been done before, I still play them because I enjoy them! That's all that matters to me. If I like a game, and enjoy playing it, then I don't really care that it's not original.BTW: email on its way in a few minutes. :)
#8
I am not pushing originality as a question of likes/dislikes. The need for originality among GG developers is an economic reality. The simple fact is that all the derivative genres and game ideas are being developed by established companies with big budgets, experienced staff, and name brand recognition. A new independent developer will be swallowed by the sharks if they try to go that route.
As small independent game developers, our games need to be different or noone will buy them.
06/19/2002 (9:54 am)
I may be presumptuous about why you are getting into game development when I say this, but that you've purchased such-and-such derivative game is just this side of irrelevant. Again, while I can't speak for you in particular, I can see just by quickly scanning the forums and what not that most people are attempting to create a game which will make money.I am not pushing originality as a question of likes/dislikes. The need for originality among GG developers is an economic reality. The simple fact is that all the derivative genres and game ideas are being developed by established companies with big budgets, experienced staff, and name brand recognition. A new independent developer will be swallowed by the sharks if they try to go that route.
As small independent game developers, our games need to be different or noone will buy them.
#9
I'm not going to touch the original/innovative/unoriginal debate. I think there is room for just about any type of game out there.
Below is a thread I started over a year and a half ago that I think ended up with some pretty original game ideas in it:
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=forums&page=result.thread&qt=399
Have Fun!
06/19/2002 (9:56 am)
*shrug*I'm not going to touch the original/innovative/unoriginal debate. I think there is room for just about any type of game out there.
Below is a thread I started over a year and a half ago that I think ended up with some pretty original game ideas in it:
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=forums&page=result.thread&qt=399
Have Fun!
#10
06/19/2002 (11:23 am)
Mike, if your still reading, got your email, and sent a reply :)
#11
06/25/2002 (1:08 pm)
Six billion people in the world. And you think you have the most original idea out there? Don't make me laugh. It's been thought of before, and chances are, its being implented as I type this. I have numerous game ideas, though many are based on existing genres, RPGs, FPS, Action, Adventure, Racing. On the surface they are the same as every single other game in that genre. But, on the inside, they have differnt gameplay ideas, new story twists, improvment on the entire genre, etc etc etc etc. Everything that man has done, has been done or at least borrowed from. Rock came from Blues. 3D games came from side scrollers. We are just borrowing ideas from each other. So don't let that bog you down though, just create your games and hope for the best. You can't please anyone, just please yourself in the beginning. ;)
#12
type of game" then good luck finding more than one title every 2 years to play. Almost every game can say that, and usually does. Thief and System Shock are both very original and very very good games, but both are FPS games partly in the vein of Quake and the like.
You seem to be confusing originality with just good conceptual gameplay. Your problem is with 'cheap' games like the Dragonball Z homage you mentioned. Almost all the games I design share elements with existing games, but I feel they're more than original and conceptual enough. To automatically discount any MMO game or FPS is ridiculous, I'm afraid.
So long as the game has a genuinely good concept, I'm happy.
06/25/2002 (2:47 pm)
Hmm. If you ask me, it isn't necessarily originality that you want to see, it's just a decent concept. I mean, if you're automatically against any game which can say it's a "You seem to be confusing originality with just good conceptual gameplay. Your problem is with 'cheap' games like the Dragonball Z homage you mentioned. Almost all the games I design share elements with existing games, but I feel they're more than original and conceptual enough. To automatically discount any MMO game or FPS is ridiculous, I'm afraid.
So long as the game has a genuinely good concept, I'm happy.
#13
If you are stuck creativally try look at a people group that has been pretty much untouched by the gaming world. I personally am working on a game using christianity as my main source of ideas for a group of poeple whom usually scorn games (christians) but simply don't know the joy of games. Making a game FOR this people group is pretty much new I only know 4 games made based on christianity and they are BY christians for christians (or at least parents concerned about there kids *sigh*another thread) and simply put they all suck.
Simply put I think you should focus your creative energy on a people group that does not have a game to enjoy therfor making something new.
Also why scorn RPGs and FPS they are genres. FPS is simply where you see the action (first person) to try and make a new camera angle should be ....interesting
Ian
07/02/2002 (10:55 pm)
technically nothing made in the gaming is a totally new concept we've seen everything before somewhere else (ah the age old truth). If you are stuck creativally try look at a people group that has been pretty much untouched by the gaming world. I personally am working on a game using christianity as my main source of ideas for a group of poeple whom usually scorn games (christians) but simply don't know the joy of games. Making a game FOR this people group is pretty much new I only know 4 games made based on christianity and they are BY christians for christians (or at least parents concerned about there kids *sigh*another thread) and simply put they all suck.
Simply put I think you should focus your creative energy on a people group that does not have a game to enjoy therfor making something new.
Also why scorn RPGs and FPS they are genres. FPS is simply where you see the action (first person) to try and make a new camera angle should be ....interesting
Ian
#14
A N A R C H Y
the aftermath is my game. elkboysoftware.cjb.net
07/13/2002 (12:23 am)
mine is pretty original. MURDER THE GOVERNMENTA N A R C H Y
the aftermath is my game. elkboysoftware.cjb.net
#15
just a nice thought
and the throw food at eachother
07/13/2002 (12:24 am)
no one has ever made a racing game with fat midgets on tricycles man just a nice thought
and the throw food at eachother
#16
Of course, that's as far as it got: praise for the idea. I can't script from scratch myself, so all I can do is come up with ideas, which I'm fairly good at (most of the time anyway).
I'd say this this forum is more for advertising your own current projects more than a place to place ideas. Or at least, that's been my experience.
07/13/2002 (1:51 am)
I came up with an original idea a while back that I posted here. It got about 50 responses and even some people saying "When Jeff said original, this is the sort of thing he was talking about."Of course, that's as far as it got: praise for the idea. I can't script from scratch myself, so all I can do is come up with ideas, which I'm fairly good at (most of the time anyway).
I'd say this this forum is more for advertising your own current projects more than a place to place ideas. Or at least, that's been my experience.
#17
Tribes was a great game, but as for originality you could be a real pain and point out all the inoriginal things in it. "Buildings? WTF! We have buildings in real life!"
*Sigh* That statement sums up what people like the person who started this post sounds like to me. Arguing over originality is downright stupid. Everyone has the same 'greatest game idea ever.' EVERYONE is making a MMORPG, to the point that all the people playing the 'good games' will have gaming bills as high as their water or electricity bills.
I personally do not like realism, nor do I like the idea that everyone has the same idea.
Maybe, just maybe, we could get some intelligible input from the gaming community if they would just stop playing goddamn Counter-Strike for five seconds.
(In this post I have tried to explain how I dislike inoriginality, but also dislike people that moan endlessly about how everyone else is not original)
07/13/2002 (2:36 am)
All inspiration has to come from somewhere, if you are inspired by World War II you might NOT want to make the best 'Interactive Dollhouse' game. I find that people work much better when they have motivation, and passion is the best kind of motivation. If they are passionate about their game, they will make it. Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Medal of Honor: Allied Assault are two great World War II games, but someone could make one better... much better. Sometimes it isnt always about being the most original, but making a game feel like its not monotonous... or improving the game.Tribes was a great game, but as for originality you could be a real pain and point out all the inoriginal things in it. "Buildings? WTF! We have buildings in real life!"
*Sigh* That statement sums up what people like the person who started this post sounds like to me. Arguing over originality is downright stupid. Everyone has the same 'greatest game idea ever.' EVERYONE is making a MMORPG, to the point that all the people playing the 'good games' will have gaming bills as high as their water or electricity bills.
I personally do not like realism, nor do I like the idea that everyone has the same idea.
Maybe, just maybe, we could get some intelligible input from the gaming community if they would just stop playing goddamn Counter-Strike for five seconds.
(In this post I have tried to explain how I dislike inoriginality, but also dislike people that moan endlessly about how everyone else is not original)
#18
Working title: Mega Midgets Mayhem!
Ideas are cheap but I'd sure like to have the cash Will Wright got (and still getting) for thinking up the SIMS.
Zug Zug!
07/13/2002 (11:28 am)
I would play a game with fat midgets on tricycles (and unicycles, big wheels and Green Machines (you all remeber those don't ya?) - you gotta have choices!). I love the food throwing element. The soundtrack would have to be be Oingo Boing meets Tool. Working title: Mega Midgets Mayhem!
Ideas are cheap but I'd sure like to have the cash Will Wright got (and still getting) for thinking up the SIMS.
Zug Zug!
#19
Just because there are a lot of a certain type of game shouldn't prevent us from making them!
Make whatever type of game you want, just put a little more thought into it than those mass-market hacks.
Owen
07/13/2002 (4:32 pm)
Everybody shouts be innovative, and I agree with that, I feel that innovation is what makes home (or garage) developers that bit more interesting, but usually that is followed by don't make a FPS, don't make an RPG, don't make an RTS, they are over saturated, Yes they are, with samey games. What you should be saying is don't make a quake clone, don't make a baldurs gate clone, don't make a CnC clone, there is no reason why someone couldn't make a kick arse FPS, there is no reason why someone couldn't make a kick arse RPG.Just because there are a lot of a certain type of game shouldn't prevent us from making them!
Make whatever type of game you want, just put a little more thought into it than those mass-market hacks.
Owen
#20
07/30/2002 (10:08 am)
You guys ever read or listen to reviews? I believe that there is probobly much to be gained from refining existing game types - what is it that makes a person prefer one game over a similar one? There are numerous issues in game design, from playability and user friendliness, to the little quirks that make one game different from another - there is a lot of room for innovation just within this spectrum, and it's all equally applicable when pushing the envelope into new territory. 
Associate Stefan Beffy Moises
If not, why start this discussion again, everything has been said in Jeff's post you've mentioned...