V12/Serious Sam Engine
by Shawn · in General Discussion · 05/01/2001 (4:14 pm) · 30 replies
Anyone building levels with Serious Sam and what do you think? Is it worth the 75K licensing fee or does V12 woop its but ? I do not have Tribes 2 so I cant comment on V12. Just looking for pros/cons.
#22
You keep asking questions about the capabilities/speed/ bugyness of V12, and comment yourself on it. The best way for you to find out about it IS to get T2. You say you haven't the money, but surely if you've just bought a whole new PC, the price of T2 must be insignificant.
Why complain about the cost of V12!!! you keep speaking of V12 as if you are not sure if it is up to scratch feature wise, and you always fail to acknowledge the sheer ammount of work that has gone into creating it. As if your coding to make a game from it will be equal. If you really believe that the game you are going to make is going to sell thousands of copies, and would recoup the costs of a full commercial engine, then why don't you shut up about V12, and buy a diferent engine?
To me, it does sound as if you are fairly new to games development, but as you said, it is not fair to judge solely from postings, so I have looked for some of your work, yet found nothing. I would be the first to admit I am wrong, it you could show me some examples of what you have done.
I do not claim to be an expert, because I am not, and I don't claim to be better then you, because I do not know. I have been programming for a good length of time, and have been very intereested in 3D graphics. If I got the V12, I am sure I could make a game, but I feel that V12 would be surplus to requirements. Even if I did make a game with it, I doubt that I would manage to use even half the features of the engine to their full extent. Although I have been programming for a while, I have not any completed projects as of yet, but I am making progress with several now. I have decided to start small, and gain experience. There are plenty of freeware engines, that are adequate for creating games, also I am making my own (albeit simple) game engine. All for experience. I will hopefully work my way to more complex things, but it will take time.
As I said, I would be the first to appologise if I am wrong, but I think that you have unrealistic expectations of your ability as a games developer, and of what you can do with V12. As for complaining about the 50% split - if you don't like it, don't get V12. I do think it is a good deal though, as I doubt that you would be able to sell the thousands of games you claim. I really am sorry if I am wrong, but I just think that you should start small. I do believe that you are a competent 3D artist, and that with a good team, you would be able to create a fine game. But just consider whether the V12 is surplus to requirements, perhaps you could find a freeware/shareware engine to do the job. But what I wanted to say, is that even if you can make good games, don't expect to sell that well. It is unlikely to go to retail, and with ESD, it is unlikely to reach huge sales. So just be realistic.
05/06/2001 (7:16 am)
I got disconnected and lost the original post and I really can't be bothered to write it all again, but the jist of it was as follows.You keep asking questions about the capabilities/speed/ bugyness of V12, and comment yourself on it. The best way for you to find out about it IS to get T2. You say you haven't the money, but surely if you've just bought a whole new PC, the price of T2 must be insignificant.
Why complain about the cost of V12!!! you keep speaking of V12 as if you are not sure if it is up to scratch feature wise, and you always fail to acknowledge the sheer ammount of work that has gone into creating it. As if your coding to make a game from it will be equal. If you really believe that the game you are going to make is going to sell thousands of copies, and would recoup the costs of a full commercial engine, then why don't you shut up about V12, and buy a diferent engine?
To me, it does sound as if you are fairly new to games development, but as you said, it is not fair to judge solely from postings, so I have looked for some of your work, yet found nothing. I would be the first to admit I am wrong, it you could show me some examples of what you have done.
I do not claim to be an expert, because I am not, and I don't claim to be better then you, because I do not know. I have been programming for a good length of time, and have been very intereested in 3D graphics. If I got the V12, I am sure I could make a game, but I feel that V12 would be surplus to requirements. Even if I did make a game with it, I doubt that I would manage to use even half the features of the engine to their full extent. Although I have been programming for a while, I have not any completed projects as of yet, but I am making progress with several now. I have decided to start small, and gain experience. There are plenty of freeware engines, that are adequate for creating games, also I am making my own (albeit simple) game engine. All for experience. I will hopefully work my way to more complex things, but it will take time.
As I said, I would be the first to appologise if I am wrong, but I think that you have unrealistic expectations of your ability as a games developer, and of what you can do with V12. As for complaining about the 50% split - if you don't like it, don't get V12. I do think it is a good deal though, as I doubt that you would be able to sell the thousands of games you claim. I really am sorry if I am wrong, but I just think that you should start small. I do believe that you are a competent 3D artist, and that with a good team, you would be able to create a fine game. But just consider whether the V12 is surplus to requirements, perhaps you could find a freeware/shareware engine to do the job. But what I wanted to say, is that even if you can make good games, don't expect to sell that well. It is unlikely to go to retail, and with ESD, it is unlikely to reach huge sales. So just be realistic.
#23
Most of the people in this forum have been extremly nice and very supportive in helping you and answering your questions. In many places you would have already been flamed out of your pants. It's a testimate to the maturity level here that people have been as forth coming and generous with their advice. So please take it in good stride that although you havn't "shown" us in code what you can do, your 100+ posts on this forum do reflect your maturity and knowledge level. It may be be to your benifit if you took some of the other pieces of advice already being offered to you even though i'm sure this advice is going to be ignored. :)
Either way, good luck on your completing your game.
Thomas
www.cratered.com
05/06/2001 (9:08 am)
Chris, Most of the people in this forum have been extremly nice and very supportive in helping you and answering your questions. In many places you would have already been flamed out of your pants. It's a testimate to the maturity level here that people have been as forth coming and generous with their advice. So please take it in good stride that although you havn't "shown" us in code what you can do, your 100+ posts on this forum do reflect your maturity and knowledge level. It may be be to your benifit if you took some of the other pieces of advice already being offered to you even though i'm sure this advice is going to be ignored. :)
Either way, good luck on your completing your game.
Thomas
www.cratered.com
#24
"I dont think it will be that bad, there are plenty of code examples around for camera movement etc
go grab quake source code :)"
_________
I still believe receiving the actual game source can make a huge difference in productivity. Here's why:
As far as the amount of work involved, even with a good engine, you will still find yourself re-inventing many proverbial wheels...
Things as common as jet fighter style target locking will still have to be coded or scripted by you. That may not seem like a big deal, and by itself it's not a big deal, but there are a huge number of similar "little things" that you will end up having to code/script in order to make your game. Each of those little things must be done, each takes a small amount of time, but add up a huge number of small amounts of time and soon it becomes a huge amount of time spent just coding common little things.
If anyone who is reading this has never actually written a game before you will be shocked at how many "little" things go in to a game -so many things that you usually pay no attention to when playing games.
This is why I think that receiving the actual Serious Sam game code in addition to the engine itself can make such a big difference. You will have many of those common things already done.
05/06/2001 (10:07 am)
_________"I dont think it will be that bad, there are plenty of code examples around for camera movement etc
go grab quake source code :)"
_________
I still believe receiving the actual game source can make a huge difference in productivity. Here's why:
As far as the amount of work involved, even with a good engine, you will still find yourself re-inventing many proverbial wheels...
Things as common as jet fighter style target locking will still have to be coded or scripted by you. That may not seem like a big deal, and by itself it's not a big deal, but there are a huge number of similar "little things" that you will end up having to code/script in order to make your game. Each of those little things must be done, each takes a small amount of time, but add up a huge number of small amounts of time and soon it becomes a huge amount of time spent just coding common little things.
If anyone who is reading this has never actually written a game before you will be shocked at how many "little" things go in to a game -so many things that you usually pay no attention to when playing games.
This is why I think that receiving the actual Serious Sam game code in addition to the engine itself can make such a big difference. You will have many of those common things already done.
#25
If you don't want to change all those little things then I'd say your better off writing a mod. If you do want to change/tweak a lot of those little things then its often just as quick and easy to start from scratch. It would be nice to get the T2 source but its no big deal.
05/06/2001 (3:56 pm)
I'm fairly inexperienced but I think I disagree to a certain extent.If you don't want to change all those little things then I'd say your better off writing a mod. If you do want to change/tweak a lot of those little things then its often just as quick and easy to start from scratch. It would be nice to get the T2 source but its no big deal.
#26
It's the same reason you license an engine (though to a lesser extent) in the first place. Why waste the time to write something yourself that has already been written? It would be like building a house and making every light bulb and door hinge yourself instead of purchasing light bulbs and door hinges from the store.
I have a relative that is like that. Rather than buy a drillpress from the hardware store, he would rather try and build one himself. I just sit back and watch, it's just silly. He wastes a lot of time and effort and with the amount of time it takes him to do it, he could have earned the money to buy one 10 times better than the one he made.
05/06/2001 (4:17 pm)
Even if you don't want the same little things, you will have to write your own versions of them from scratch. At least if you have the source, you have a starting point. You won't have to re-invent anything, just start where they left off. It's the same reason you license an engine (though to a lesser extent) in the first place. Why waste the time to write something yourself that has already been written? It would be like building a house and making every light bulb and door hinge yourself instead of purchasing light bulbs and door hinges from the store.
I have a relative that is like that. Rather than buy a drillpress from the hardware store, he would rather try and build one himself. I just sit back and watch, it's just silly. He wastes a lot of time and effort and with the amount of time it takes him to do it, he could have earned the money to buy one 10 times better than the one he made.
#27
05/06/2001 (4:26 pm)
But at least you get the exact house you wanted ;)
#28
If you're talking about extending existing classes to add functionality then yes thats a good thing and having a good base class can save a lot of time if its well commented. I suppose the same is true if you just want to change a couple of methods too.
I think it was the example that threw me. The time it would take to write that tracking code would be about the same as the time to rewrite it if you weren't happy with it I think.
There comes a point when someone elses code is too specific for what you want and so modifying it is more time consuming than starting from scratch. For a some people that point is reached with the engine itself (or even before for a few people), for others like yourself the T2 source might be useful and others are happy to write mods.
I haven't looked at SS (the engine or the game) but it seems strange to me that if you want to make a SS clone then the T2 source will be much use to you. I could be way off and maybe I'm missing the point entirely, I'm like that sometimes :)
05/06/2001 (4:27 pm)
You're right, I misunderstood :)If you're talking about extending existing classes to add functionality then yes thats a good thing and having a good base class can save a lot of time if its well commented. I suppose the same is true if you just want to change a couple of methods too.
I think it was the example that threw me. The time it would take to write that tracking code would be about the same as the time to rewrite it if you weren't happy with it I think.
There comes a point when someone elses code is too specific for what you want and so modifying it is more time consuming than starting from scratch. For a some people that point is reached with the engine itself (or even before for a few people), for others like yourself the T2 source might be useful and others are happy to write mods.
I haven't looked at SS (the engine or the game) but it seems strange to me that if you want to make a SS clone then the T2 source will be much use to you. I could be way off and maybe I'm missing the point entirely, I'm like that sometimes :)
#29
05/06/2001 (4:47 pm)
Yes, that's what I meant and I understand your point too. I think that even if the code is too specific to be effectively modified, it's still nice to study the methods used.
#30
I had a solid budget of an exact ammount I couldn't reasonably go over, and guess what? I went over it by about $100 already... Oh well...
I am more experienced than you think, obviously...
Well, I am just going to drop this, I don't want to continue arguing(hopefully you all can respect that).
>But what I wanted to say, is that even if you can make good games, don't expect to sell that well. It is unlikely to go to retail, and with ESD, it is unlikely to reach huge sales. So just be realistic.
Well, if you do an outline of what I need for a game, I have most of it... I am thinking about actually not doing much of the programming if I do start a game project with V12. I have connections for most of the art work, music, etc... I have a great ability to lead and direct a game/team, so most of the chances of failing would lie on the programming and sheer chance...
>you will be shocked at how many "little" things go in to a game -so many things that you usually pay no attention to when playing games.
I know what you mean... Such detail and code goes into these games... That is why you should have multiple programmers working on different sets of little things...
Sorry if I seem to post a lot.... It never hurts trying to make friends in forums... I have been less restrictive than I usually am in forums, in GG. I don't watch what I say as much as usual, probably because I need someplace to vent all the stress that has been put on me recently...
I am extremely multi-talented, so programming isn't such a big deal to me as it is being someones only talent... I am involved in many areas of game development, which turns out to be very good in the end..
If you think you are a better programmer than me you are welcome to help me on projects if you want, I don't need to be the best programmer to be able to contribute more to a project than anyone else(as a leader), and I sure as hell don't want to be looked at as the best programmer, I don't have the time to do that much work when I have other things to worry about.
Everyone has their specialties when it comes to programming, I have mine.
I really don't know what or have much to say past this, hopefully we can stop arguing. Of course, you don't see me picking into every problem every one of you has personality wise, but that is because I don't like to argue very much, and that would start one hell of a fight... So if any of you have been holding back on me, I choose to hold back on you now... Hopefully you can respect that...
05/07/2001 (4:45 am)
If I am going to spend $40 soon, it would be to get a different video card with the computer, not buy a game.I had a solid budget of an exact ammount I couldn't reasonably go over, and guess what? I went over it by about $100 already... Oh well...
I am more experienced than you think, obviously...
Well, I am just going to drop this, I don't want to continue arguing(hopefully you all can respect that).
>But what I wanted to say, is that even if you can make good games, don't expect to sell that well. It is unlikely to go to retail, and with ESD, it is unlikely to reach huge sales. So just be realistic.
Well, if you do an outline of what I need for a game, I have most of it... I am thinking about actually not doing much of the programming if I do start a game project with V12. I have connections for most of the art work, music, etc... I have a great ability to lead and direct a game/team, so most of the chances of failing would lie on the programming and sheer chance...
>you will be shocked at how many "little" things go in to a game -so many things that you usually pay no attention to when playing games.
I know what you mean... Such detail and code goes into these games... That is why you should have multiple programmers working on different sets of little things...
Sorry if I seem to post a lot.... It never hurts trying to make friends in forums... I have been less restrictive than I usually am in forums, in GG. I don't watch what I say as much as usual, probably because I need someplace to vent all the stress that has been put on me recently...
I am extremely multi-talented, so programming isn't such a big deal to me as it is being someones only talent... I am involved in many areas of game development, which turns out to be very good in the end..
If you think you are a better programmer than me you are welcome to help me on projects if you want, I don't need to be the best programmer to be able to contribute more to a project than anyone else(as a leader), and I sure as hell don't want to be looked at as the best programmer, I don't have the time to do that much work when I have other things to worry about.
Everyone has their specialties when it comes to programming, I have mine.
I really don't know what or have much to say past this, hopefully we can stop arguing. Of course, you don't see me picking into every problem every one of you has personality wise, but that is because I don't like to argue very much, and that would start one hell of a fight... So if any of you have been holding back on me, I choose to hold back on you now... Hopefully you can respect that...
Chris Helms
>1) Bought the game
I just bought a new computer for god's sake...
I'm getting the computer tomorrow.
Would Tribes2 run well on it?
(AMD athlon 1 GHZ, 256 RAM, GeForce2 32mb, Win98)?
5) Studied what it actually takes to create a game engine
And what questions would this answer? I already know what it takes... A lot of work.
>I can say that I have not experienced any of the issues that other people are saying that they have
So you don't know if it is or isn't buggy.
>Judging from his posts, he is definately new to this.
How so? I could be much more skilled than any one of you, I'm probably not, but you can't tell from the questions I ask.
I really knew nothing about the engine when I came here (wether it was OGL or D3D, or whatever the hell it supported), I was just looking for a few simple answers, not knowing what to expect.
>but also about the business aspect of the games industry
It seems to me like I knew just as much as everyone else and more in certain areas about the business aspects of the industry, how can you say you are trying to educate me???
>There is no point and click solution to creating a game,
[sarcasm] Oh really? I guess all my hopes and dreams of ever creating a game are so shot with this comment you made that I have to go kill myself because I have no future in any industry in the world. It seems that I will be leaving GG and continue my search for a magic system that will fullfil my every expectation in every possible way.[/sarcasm]
Now, REALLY, I know what it takes to make a game, and I know what it takes to make an engine, and I know the finances and many other areas as well, I'm just still trying to find out about the engine, and I don't have the time to play the game or currently the money to buy it, considering all the money I can spend goes to other things.
I have many, many, MANY more important things to spend any ammount of money I have on.
I guess the engine should be more or less $150 if you have to buy the game... Since when do you have to buy a game to see what the engine is like anyway? They are expecting you to buy the game to preview it? So they don't have their own preview? This would be the first that I have heard of, doing it like this... Sure, you can see what the engine can do, with all that time of programming it to do that... There should be some demo of the different graphics options available/etc.
I liked the example in Auran of the camera rotating around the pill shaped object with different mapping on each side(I forget what it was called), I wonder if V12 supports such good looking mapping...