Limited forum access
by Aaron Goselin · in General Discussion · 02/11/2007 (6:16 am) · 36 replies
Could someone please explain to me why as a TGB Pro owner, I am blocked out of TGE forums? I can't see any logical reason for this, so I'm a little curious, and more than a little annoyed.
When I try to search the site for information on average out of say 10 posts I will have 4 that look perfect but I can't access, and 6 that have nothing to do with what I am searching for. If I am really lucky I will find my answer after searching through pages of posts...but usually the answer that I can't access is one of the first ones I see. This is very frustrating as it simply makes the learning process that much harder.
I'm sure there are quite a few things in TGE that aren't in TGB, but really, what am I going to do with any information about 3D stuff that isn't in my own engine? Are you afraid I'm going to code in my own 3D into TGB? I can assure you that would not be worth my time... :)
Anyway, I would really appreciate it if someone could explain it to me, or better yet change it so it isn't like this. Thanks.
When I try to search the site for information on average out of say 10 posts I will have 4 that look perfect but I can't access, and 6 that have nothing to do with what I am searching for. If I am really lucky I will find my answer after searching through pages of posts...but usually the answer that I can't access is one of the first ones I see. This is very frustrating as it simply makes the learning process that much harder.
I'm sure there are quite a few things in TGE that aren't in TGB, but really, what am I going to do with any information about 3D stuff that isn't in my own engine? Are you afraid I'm going to code in my own 3D into TGB? I can assure you that would not be worth my time... :)
Anyway, I would really appreciate it if someone could explain it to me, or better yet change it so it isn't like this. Thanks.
About the author
#2
What reasons do you think are obvious though? (not a hostile question :) )
02/11/2007 (6:54 am)
Well at the moment pretty much all of my searches have to do with working with the GUI, which as far as I know is identical.What reasons do you think are obvious though? (not a hostile question :) )
#3
Obvious reason: source access.
02/11/2007 (8:31 am)
Discussions regarding GUI should be made in the Public Sections of the forums, and if you find them elsewhere then that says more about the poster than the forums IMO.Obvious reason: source access.
#4
Ok I thought maybe that was what you meant. I just can't understand how it matters if I see something pertaining to code I don't have... I'd hate to have to spend $150 just so I don't get blocked anymore. It would speed up development, but it would hardly be worth it.
Anyway thanks. I have been coding for way too long and I can't focus my eyes. Just typing this message I think I hit the backspace button a couple hundred times. :)
02/11/2007 (10:59 am)
My feelings about the poster aside, the information in those posts can still be very useful to me.Ok I thought maybe that was what you meant. I just can't understand how it matters if I see something pertaining to code I don't have... I'd hate to have to spend $150 just so I don't get blocked anymore. It would speed up development, but it would hardly be worth it.
Anyway thanks. I have been coding for way too long and I can't focus my eyes. Just typing this message I think I hit the backspace button a couple hundred times. :)
#5
Just about all GUI work should be posted in public forums, but many people don't consider that when making their posts.
02/11/2007 (11:24 am)
It's due to the fact that with the extreme amount of warez sites that have Torque available, the only way we can even reasonably secure our license purchases is by requiring forum access to posts that contain source code references, or discuss source related topics.Just about all GUI work should be posted in public forums, but many people don't consider that when making their posts.
#6
Thats just frickin silly. But instead we end up spending endless hours of time rewording our searches, and still coming up with the first few pages being stuff we can not even read, (With TGB out finding TGE infomation is becoming very difficult).
I understand wishing to keep the information about HOW to use the engine out of the peoples hands that should not OWN the code base. But when it comes down to the people that do legally own part of the CORE code base that is between all of your technology it just seems very silly to keep it secret.
What this say to me is that you do not even trust the people that own the license legally with any small scrap of code from one of the other engine derivatives. THAT, or GG truly do not wish to promote the individual game developer, as seen by creating a condition that slows down the individuals accessibility to information.
Where is the logic in keeping GOOD information away from people that already OWN a license To one of the SDK's? At the very LEAST allow us to filter OUT information that you don't wish other license holders to see, so it is not constantly in our face that GG thinks 4 lines of TGB code being seen by a TGE owner might just crack the foundation of independent game development, and jeperdise future product sales.
02/11/2007 (12:54 pm)
Oh come on Stephen!, its not like we are going to take some chunk of code posted on a TGB/TGA forum or resource and suddenly turn our own TGE into TGB! Im still wishing to see how POLY SOUP works...Thats just frickin silly. But instead we end up spending endless hours of time rewording our searches, and still coming up with the first few pages being stuff we can not even read, (With TGB out finding TGE infomation is becoming very difficult).
I understand wishing to keep the information about HOW to use the engine out of the peoples hands that should not OWN the code base. But when it comes down to the people that do legally own part of the CORE code base that is between all of your technology it just seems very silly to keep it secret.
What this say to me is that you do not even trust the people that own the license legally with any small scrap of code from one of the other engine derivatives. THAT, or GG truly do not wish to promote the individual game developer, as seen by creating a condition that slows down the individuals accessibility to information.
Where is the logic in keeping GOOD information away from people that already OWN a license To one of the SDK's? At the very LEAST allow us to filter OUT information that you don't wish other license holders to see, so it is not constantly in our face that GG thinks 4 lines of TGB code being seen by a TGE owner might just crack the foundation of independent game development, and jeperdise future product sales.
#7
02/11/2007 (2:41 pm)
I'm just telling you the reasons. I have made the exact same points, but have been told what you are asking is not possible with Google.
#8
Ok well that's actually a really good answer. I didn't really think of that. The only thing is, anyone who tries to sell a game they've made on pirated engine is seriously stupid. What would happen to the guy anyway lol? I imagine that's a pretty big offense. It's like duplicating DVD's and mass selling them on the net or something.
I would say that I would really really like to not have to pay $150 just to access information that I feel I should have in the first place. I realize it must be difficult to mass sell an engine and at the same time protect your assets, but it sucks for us all the same.
It would be cool if you guys could impliment a different search feature, like one written in house maybe. Something built specifically for the site would be a great help to developers. I imagine devoting a programer to coding a search engine would seem like a waste of manpower, but improving documentation is as important as improving the engine, in my opinion.
Yes, a lot of people have been saying that. The problem for me is I don't use forums very often, and I sort of find the forums here confusing. If GUI posts should be posted in public forums, then I feel there should only be a public forum. This would remove the possibility of confusion. Then again maybe most people are more adept at forums then I am? I'm not sure.
Anyway, thanks for the answer.
02/12/2007 (3:04 am)
Quote:It's due to the fact that with the extreme amount of warez sites that have Torque available, the only way we can even reasonably secure our license purchases is by requiring forum access to posts that contain source code references, or discuss source related topics.
Ok well that's actually a really good answer. I didn't really think of that. The only thing is, anyone who tries to sell a game they've made on pirated engine is seriously stupid. What would happen to the guy anyway lol? I imagine that's a pretty big offense. It's like duplicating DVD's and mass selling them on the net or something.
I would say that I would really really like to not have to pay $150 just to access information that I feel I should have in the first place. I realize it must be difficult to mass sell an engine and at the same time protect your assets, but it sucks for us all the same.
It would be cool if you guys could impliment a different search feature, like one written in house maybe. Something built specifically for the site would be a great help to developers. I imagine devoting a programer to coding a search engine would seem like a waste of manpower, but improving documentation is as important as improving the engine, in my opinion.
Quote:Just about all GUI work should be posted in public forums, but many people don't consider that when making their posts.
Yes, a lot of people have been saying that. The problem for me is I don't use forums very often, and I sort of find the forums here confusing. If GUI posts should be posted in public forums, then I feel there should only be a public forum. This would remove the possibility of confusion. Then again maybe most people are more adept at forums then I am? I'm not sure.
Anyway, thanks for the answer.
#9
And yes, i live in post-soviet country meself.
02/12/2007 (4:28 am)
Actually, in post-soviet and (perhaps), asian countries usage of warezed engine wouldnt matter much in many cases (at least, as long as game is geared towards internal market). And yes, i live in post-soviet country meself.
#10
02/12/2007 (4:32 am)
Oh yes, that's true I suppose. Hmmm...no further arguments from me then I guess...except that it sucks :P
#11
Ah, that reminds me of reading about the many Soviet NES clones that Nintendo couldn't do anything about...good times, good times(well besides the whole communist part :P).
02/16/2007 (4:07 pm)
@NaurisAh, that reminds me of reading about the many Soviet NES clones that Nintendo couldn't do anything about...good times, good times(well besides the whole communist part :P).
#12
However, I would imagine that is would take a hell of an effort to fix the issue. It would require someone to freeze old threads and search through and flag each post based upon content. Not a fun job! Even if Google could do it, it would still be a nightmare.
I think there is enough duplication or information and many times you can see from the header of the message that you need to look in such and such source file. Usually it is not a big deal. You can always post a question to get your answer as well.
02/18/2007 (7:37 am)
I have experienced the same issue searching for things that are obviously related to all engines. A lot of the time I dead end at T2D posts, or TGB posts that have TGE applicable information. However, I would imagine that is would take a hell of an effort to fix the issue. It would require someone to freeze old threads and search through and flag each post based upon content. Not a fun job! Even if Google could do it, it would still be a nightmare.
I think there is enough duplication or information and many times you can see from the header of the message that you need to look in such and such source file. Usually it is not a big deal. You can always post a question to get your answer as well.
#13
02/18/2007 (9:21 am)
I finally just gave up and bought TGEA. I'll probably want to do a 3D project next anyway.
#14
But i can not see the logic to that statement.
Its not as if ALL the torque base information should/would be open for any freak on the street. Why not simply let people read any of the forums once they get ANY of the SDK's? (Heck it might even convince me into expanding the Torque technology I own)
Like it is now, simple public forums and simple private forums. None of this silly exclusive "THIS SDK" only forums.
The lack of good documentation is one thing, but receiving HITS to documentation that MAY or MAY NOT be exactly what one is seeking- and not being allowed to read it- thats an outrage!
Also, one would need to spend a hell of a lot of time picking up clips of code to turn TGE into TSE- matter of fact im very sure it would be impossible. SO that can not be the reason.
I can only think of one reason, and it would be inflammatory to say it....
02/18/2007 (9:42 am)
One thing that have me puzzled is still the fact they blame this on, Quote: It's due to the fact that with the extreme amount of warez sites that have Torque available,
But i can not see the logic to that statement.
Its not as if ALL the torque base information should/would be open for any freak on the street. Why not simply let people read any of the forums once they get ANY of the SDK's? (Heck it might even convince me into expanding the Torque technology I own)
Like it is now, simple public forums and simple private forums. None of this silly exclusive "THIS SDK" only forums.
The lack of good documentation is one thing, but receiving HITS to documentation that MAY or MAY NOT be exactly what one is seeking- and not being allowed to read it- thats an outrage!
Also, one would need to spend a hell of a lot of time picking up clips of code to turn TGE into TSE- matter of fact im very sure it would be impossible. SO that can not be the reason.
I can only think of one reason, and it would be inflammatory to say it....
#15
02/18/2007 (1:52 pm)
The statement is perfectly logical - then you could just buy TGB for $100, pirate the others and still have open access to all information ever about it. GG would lose $50 on TGE, and $195 on TGEA.
#16
Once more I do not see the logic of keeping licensed SDK holders away from good information, out of fearing lost revenues at the actions of some small % of pirate versions. Would GG rather take the time and produce a bit more in depth documentation for each SDK? What of the 2 would cost them the more money? And if this is fear of pirates, what and how do GG contend with INDIE license holders from actually making more then the allowed INDIE license profit? Im very sure the amount of lost revenue- be it pirate or be it over profiting INDIE license holder have near the same percentage.
When i was shopping for a game engine I found some that were more powerful then Torque, some that are easier to use, but at the time none of the others had much peer user support. It was the fact that i could search the forums for the answers to any Torque problem that sold me. NOW we have come to a place where many search results return TGB hits, soon we will be flooded with TSE. The google search is weak enough as it is, without hitting a page plus of information that can not be viewed.
02/18/2007 (2:29 pm)
Hmm... And where DO people find the pirate versions? I have never seen them. I have never seen bigfoot either... Of course if the pirate versions are out there, and people are using them, GG has already lost out on the $. Once more I do not see the logic of keeping licensed SDK holders away from good information, out of fearing lost revenues at the actions of some small % of pirate versions. Would GG rather take the time and produce a bit more in depth documentation for each SDK? What of the 2 would cost them the more money? And if this is fear of pirates, what and how do GG contend with INDIE license holders from actually making more then the allowed INDIE license profit? Im very sure the amount of lost revenue- be it pirate or be it over profiting INDIE license holder have near the same percentage.
When i was shopping for a game engine I found some that were more powerful then Torque, some that are easier to use, but at the time none of the others had much peer user support. It was the fact that i could search the forums for the answers to any Torque problem that sold me. NOW we have come to a place where many search results return TGB hits, soon we will be flooded with TSE. The google search is weak enough as it is, without hitting a page plus of information that can not be viewed.
#17
Like I said, I gave in and bought TGEA which I was told would unlock the TGE forums as well as TGEA forums (I was told this by an employee.) Irritatingly I do not seem to be able to access TGE Private forums, and when I ask why I get no response so far anyway. I'm hoping this is just a site bug and will be resolved shortly.
Oh well, I'm having fun messing around with TGEA for now.
02/18/2007 (2:42 pm)
Truthfully upon getting the argument of pirated versions I spent like 40 minutes trying to find one. I searched all the torrent sites and everything else I could think of and I found only two outdated copies that were not being seeded very strongly. While I think the pirate argument is a fairly solid one, it really doesn't make sense to block out people who have paid for the engine (one or the other) simply because they MAY pirate the other.Like I said, I gave in and bought TGEA which I was told would unlock the TGE forums as well as TGEA forums (I was told this by an employee.) Irritatingly I do not seem to be able to access TGE Private forums, and when I ask why I get no response so far anyway. I'm hoping this is just a site bug and will be resolved shortly.
Oh well, I'm having fun messing around with TGEA for now.
#18
Someone uploaded TGEA on ************.com, for instance, and he used the same name there as he does on this site, and he's a licensee of both TGE and TGEA.
02/18/2007 (2:52 pm)
If you haven't seen any pirated versions of Torque on the net, then you haven't simply looked good enough because they are on all of the five sites I looked at.Someone uploaded TGEA on ************.com, for instance, and he used the same name there as he does on this site, and he's a licensee of both TGE and TGEA.
#19
02/18/2007 (2:56 pm)
Lol, that's just plain stupid. Of course it's possible it could be someone saw the name and decided to use it...or a pirate group with a stolen card or something. Who knows. Yeah when I said 40 mins it wasn't really dedicated 40 mins. I was working at the same time so I didn't look really hard... I still think it'd be stupid for most people to use an engine they can't legally make money off of. But people will I'm sure. 
#20
02/18/2007 (3:07 pm)
Finding torque is as easy as downloading bittorrent. 
Torque Owner Stefan Lundmark
Most of the time when information you need is in another restricted forum, it is due to someone asking questions in the wrong section or simply when a discussion has gone stray.
I can not speak for GarageGames, but I do recall a discussion about this previously. If it was about the resources of this site or forums, I can not remember.