Are Writers Obsolete?
by Scott Lail · in General Discussion · 05/01/2001 (3:14 pm) · 19 replies
I put this in game design but figured I would see more response here.
I have seen lots of discussion on gameplay and graphics but what of Plot? Isn't it the job of the writers to pull you in? If I write a story and you the programmer brings it to life, aren't I just as responsible as you the artist, or you the programmer, for the direction and content? Answers, flames, condolences, all appreciated.
I have seen lots of discussion on gameplay and graphics but what of Plot? Isn't it the job of the writers to pull you in? If I write a story and you the programmer brings it to life, aren't I just as responsible as you the artist, or you the programmer, for the direction and content? Answers, flames, condolences, all appreciated.
#2
In a threads at GDNet, there were a some people considering random world generating RPG's where you could build the world to suit you, and then play in it at your hearts content. What they forgot, was that a game isn't a game without some sort of goal. I think that a good story is the best way of conveying a goal to a player, and convinicing the player to complete that goal.
The one thing I don't like about some stories, it that they impose total linearity upon the game. What I would like to see is a story with multiple branches and endings.
05/01/2001 (3:27 pm)
IMHO story is a part of the gameplay. And as everyone knows, good gameplay is the starting point for any good game.In a threads at GDNet, there were a some people considering random world generating RPG's where you could build the world to suit you, and then play in it at your hearts content. What they forgot, was that a game isn't a game without some sort of goal. I think that a good story is the best way of conveying a goal to a player, and convinicing the player to complete that goal.
The one thing I don't like about some stories, it that they impose total linearity upon the game. What I would like to see is a story with multiple branches and endings.
#3
There are a bunch of games with a great backstory that is totally irrelevant to the game, and is never tied in except sometimes by cutscenes. But other games -- like System Shock and the Thief series, particularly Thief 1 -- make the story an integral part of the game by making it not only beneficial but necessary to interact deeply with the environment, reading the books, eating the food, exploring the nooks and crannies, eavesdropping on conversations. Story is, of course, VERY important. But a great story with great cutscenes will languish and die unless the player constantly interacts with it, to the point that the REAL story seems to be going on in the missions, and the cutscenes are just introductions to new chapters.
05/01/2001 (3:32 pm)
Story and plot is important. However, I agree that it is an integral part of gameplay in any mission-based game.There are a bunch of games with a great backstory that is totally irrelevant to the game, and is never tied in except sometimes by cutscenes. But other games -- like System Shock and the Thief series, particularly Thief 1 -- make the story an integral part of the game by making it not only beneficial but necessary to interact deeply with the environment, reading the books, eating the food, exploring the nooks and crannies, eavesdropping on conversations. Story is, of course, VERY important. But a great story with great cutscenes will languish and die unless the player constantly interacts with it, to the point that the REAL story seems to be going on in the missions, and the cutscenes are just introductions to new chapters.
#4
05/01/2001 (5:28 pm)
Not quite what I was getting at. What I am asking here is, are the writers just as responsible for how the game is laid out? Does their story demand that they have a guiding hand in where the player goes, what he sees, and does, or should the story only be filler in between great fight sequences?
#5
As for the comments about should a story actually drive the action in a game, ie should a writer be the one to dictate what the character will do and when, well, I dont think that can be entirely true. If you do that you fall into the trap previously mentioned of making your game too linear. The player will feel he has no control over whats going on and rapidly lose interest.
On the other hand, the story needs to be more than a cutscene between each awesome fight. While you can't let a story 100% drive a game, you also can't make it so flexible and non-intrusive that the player feels he is no longer even a part of it, that its just things happening around him. Its a fine line to walk, but in my opinion, a very important one to walk properly.
I know thats all kinda hazy and indistinct, but it would take me far too many words to put it down in exact terms :) Basically, I guess, in response to your question, I dont think a writer should be the one who directs the action or the characters. I think he should be a very important part of the design process, but rather than direct the action, he should collaborate with the other designers/artists/programmers to come up with the absolute best possible game they can.
05/01/2001 (10:23 pm)
Its great to see people still supporting the the art of telling a good story. Because really, it is an art; just as I see writing good code, or building awesome models as an art, I see the ability to tell a great story, one that really grabs the player and totally sucks them into the world, as an art. This has been one of the major goals of my current project since its inception (actually, it was one of the driving forces behind its inception).As for the comments about should a story actually drive the action in a game, ie should a writer be the one to dictate what the character will do and when, well, I dont think that can be entirely true. If you do that you fall into the trap previously mentioned of making your game too linear. The player will feel he has no control over whats going on and rapidly lose interest.
On the other hand, the story needs to be more than a cutscene between each awesome fight. While you can't let a story 100% drive a game, you also can't make it so flexible and non-intrusive that the player feels he is no longer even a part of it, that its just things happening around him. Its a fine line to walk, but in my opinion, a very important one to walk properly.
I know thats all kinda hazy and indistinct, but it would take me far too many words to put it down in exact terms :) Basically, I guess, in response to your question, I dont think a writer should be the one who directs the action or the characters. I think he should be a very important part of the design process, but rather than direct the action, he should collaborate with the other designers/artists/programmers to come up with the absolute best possible game they can.
#6
I think writers have more fun(and work) with multiple story lines/endings, but many times it takes a lot more work in programming and modeling areas...
I think gameplay is seperate from story, story doesn't handle what the player does, but, who cares, why argue with it, I don't feel like it...
>There are a bunch of games with a great backstory that is totally irrelevant to the game, and is never tied in except sometimes by cutscenes.
I know of many games like this, some space sims, games like armored core, the battles aren't involved enough in the story, but a few of them are...
>make the story an integral part of the game by making it not only beneficial but necessary to interact deeply with the environment,
This is one of the most important aspects of gameplay...
>are the writers just as responsible for how the game is laid out?
I think so, storyline is extremely important, a good story line really makes a game worth playing a lot more.
I've had a story in the making since January 2000, I don't have nearly the resources to create it since it requires massive worlds, multiple worlds, and many many enemies with many animations each. It would be very expensive to make, but the story is so involving, detailed(I mean, EXTREMELY detailed and dramatic), that it would be worth it just to see the storyline played out.
I think if the writers do have more control, and have in mind that they need to make the game with multiple options, the end result will be even less linear. I think good writers will be able to do this rather easily.
The writers need to be involved a lot, to make a good story, but they of course have to work with the designers and programmers... I think many people have game ideas and just don't focus on the areas of storyline and involvement, it is easy to forget about this part, which is why you need people with unique innovative ideas.
05/02/2001 (4:33 am)
I agree that writers, plot/storyline are extremely important. Luckily I have writers and am a great writer myself, no problems there...I think writers have more fun(and work) with multiple story lines/endings, but many times it takes a lot more work in programming and modeling areas...
I think gameplay is seperate from story, story doesn't handle what the player does, but, who cares, why argue with it, I don't feel like it...
>There are a bunch of games with a great backstory that is totally irrelevant to the game, and is never tied in except sometimes by cutscenes.
I know of many games like this, some space sims, games like armored core, the battles aren't involved enough in the story, but a few of them are...
>make the story an integral part of the game by making it not only beneficial but necessary to interact deeply with the environment,
This is one of the most important aspects of gameplay...
>are the writers just as responsible for how the game is laid out?
I think so, storyline is extremely important, a good story line really makes a game worth playing a lot more.
I've had a story in the making since January 2000, I don't have nearly the resources to create it since it requires massive worlds, multiple worlds, and many many enemies with many animations each. It would be very expensive to make, but the story is so involving, detailed(I mean, EXTREMELY detailed and dramatic), that it would be worth it just to see the storyline played out.
I think if the writers do have more control, and have in mind that they need to make the game with multiple options, the end result will be even less linear. I think good writers will be able to do this rather easily.
The writers need to be involved a lot, to make a good story, but they of course have to work with the designers and programmers... I think many people have game ideas and just don't focus on the areas of storyline and involvement, it is easy to forget about this part, which is why you need people with unique innovative ideas.
#7
is concernered, without a good storyline i personaly think a game has little chance of success in the same way as a book wont be a bestseller if the the story is crud, probably too simplistic a statement but never the less pertanent.
05/02/2001 (4:44 am)
I dont think writers are obsolete i do however find them illusuve reclusive and bloody hard to track down, a good one anyway, as far as their role in developmentis concernered, without a good storyline i personaly think a game has little chance of success in the same way as a book wont be a bestseller if the the story is crud, probably too simplistic a statement but never the less pertanent.
#8
05/02/2001 (5:56 am)
so Chris do you think that a writer who knows something about programming and even graphics arts as well, would be more usefull then say someone who only knows how to craft a good story?
#9
05/02/2001 (5:59 am)
also to Warren: If the story is crafted into how the player reacts with the world ie the way he talks to an npc then isn't it even more important for the writer to be able to guide aspects of the gameplay?
#10
05/02/2001 (6:04 am)
So Chris reading your post what sort of affect do you think that Clive Barker working on Undying will have on the game itself, i understand that he was not in the running from the start so that could be argued but do you think it will help moderatly or have a big impact on the game itself. or dare i say it is it a big publicity gig.
#11
Maybe the problem isn't so much that we're not out there (yes, I write), but that you're not really that serious about having one work on your project. Everyone -talks- about needing a good story, but how many have you have talked with someone who knows something about storywriting? Anyone can come up with story ideas, but you have to know how to put them together to make a good cohesive story. There's more to it than good-guy/bad-guy/conflict/battle. Honestly!
Good story in a game doesn't just 'happen'. Writing is an art, just like 3d modelling, and it too takes time and effort to get right. And just like 3d artists have to know the limitations of the engine, writers needs to know how the story is going to fit into the levels. It's part of the design process, so make sure you make time for it.
At this point, I'll throw my hat in. I'm not busy programming much atm, just playing with ideas, so if anyone wants a writer to work with, let me know. I have written a few short stories, including one I won an award for. I also just recently wrote the story for the game my company is working on. I'm willing to work with anyone who's serious about having a good story in their game. I don't need pay, just credit in any completed work. You know how to get hold of me.
05/02/2001 (8:27 am)
Here's a question for you: How come no one is LOOKING for writers? There isn't a single wanted ad for a writer on the site. Anyone??Maybe the problem isn't so much that we're not out there (yes, I write), but that you're not really that serious about having one work on your project. Everyone -talks- about needing a good story, but how many have you have talked with someone who knows something about storywriting? Anyone can come up with story ideas, but you have to know how to put them together to make a good cohesive story. There's more to it than good-guy/bad-guy/conflict/battle. Honestly!
Good story in a game doesn't just 'happen'. Writing is an art, just like 3d modelling, and it too takes time and effort to get right. And just like 3d artists have to know the limitations of the engine, writers needs to know how the story is going to fit into the levels. It's part of the design process, so make sure you make time for it.
At this point, I'll throw my hat in. I'm not busy programming much atm, just playing with ideas, so if anyone wants a writer to work with, let me know. I have written a few short stories, including one I won an award for. I also just recently wrote the story for the game my company is working on. I'm willing to work with anyone who's serious about having a good story in their game. I don't need pay, just credit in any completed work. You know how to get hold of me.
#12
The writer is an integral part of the team, but hes not the controlling factor. In fact, there really shouldn't be any one controlling factor, thats why its a "team" and not "one guy and all his minions".
05/02/2001 (5:56 pm)
Scott (Lail): I agree, the writer should have a hand in guiding the gameplay, but he shouldn't be the one controlling it (which is the impression I got from your previous post). It shouldn't be at the point where the writer goes "ok, I want it to happen this way, so this is the way its going to happen and thats final". Everyone in a team is there for a reason, they're all good at what they do in their various areas; each person can bring something new to the table. While the writer may come up with an awesome story, some of it may just not work well in a game (I mean, the rules are kinda different than say a novel or a movie), and some of it may just be too damn hard to model/code.The writer is an integral part of the team, but hes not the controlling factor. In fact, there really shouldn't be any one controlling factor, thats why its a "team" and not "one guy and all his minions".
#13
So yes, story plays as much a role as the rest of the game.
Some of you are asking about multiple storylines in a game. That's something I have in a few of my ideas, including a storyline that is so huge it sets apart everything and anything ever done in a game! And the fact that it's a multi-player FPS should really drive a knot in your head now!
How immersive can a story be? If I get a chance to make it, you'll see!
Expecting your feedback...
05/03/2001 (12:38 am)
The story of the game is usualy what holds the player in, sets the mood, and give the player a reason to go on. How many of you have actualy been immersed in a game's story and actualy needed to know what was going to happen next? I have in countless games.So yes, story plays as much a role as the rest of the game.
Some of you are asking about multiple storylines in a game. That's something I have in a few of my ideas, including a storyline that is so huge it sets apart everything and anything ever done in a game! And the fact that it's a multi-player FPS should really drive a knot in your head now!
How immersive can a story be? If I get a chance to make it, you'll see!
Expecting your feedback...
#14
Somewhat, yes. A writer that knows about these things knows what is doable and what isn't. They can focus on the things that they know they can do, and not have to go back and change the story later if the project leader says they can't do it.
>Here's a question for you: How come no one is LOOKING for writers? There isn't a single wanted ad for a writer on the site. Anyone??
I am a writer and have help with writing too, so, I wouldn't be looking... I would be willing to help anyone who needed it with a story if they would put my name in the credits, and maybe a small logo/link depending on the help level.
>how many have you have talked with someone who knows something about storywriting?
I have ideas extremely easily, so many they come from my dreams as well, but I might need help in a few small areas, everyone could use multiple writers, I've found they can even give me more ideas, as well as contributing their own.
>Writing is an art, just like 3d modelling, and it too takes time and effort to get right.
It takes, in some cases, lots of time, sometimes ideas are hard to find, usually when you get into the story deeply, but in the beginning usually there is an overflow of ideas, and you also have to know what people will like...
>I'm not busy programming much atm, just playing with ideas, so if anyone wants a writer to work with, let me know.
I think we all could help eachother with ideas and writing, lots of us already did in other posts, and most of the ideas were pretty good.
>the writer should have a hand in guiding the gameplay, but he shouldn't be the one controlling it
If they were controling it they would have too much power over what would be needed, and the resources could get scarce, another reason they should be more or less seperated..
>including a storyline that is so huge it sets apart everything and anything ever done in a game! And the fact that it's a multi-player FPS should really drive a knot in your head now!
Can I help? If I am interested I might be able to come up with some good ideas. Most of us have some really good ideas and just can't find the resources to get them done...
05/03/2001 (5:10 am)
>do you think that a writer who knows something about programming and even graphics arts as well, would be more usefull then say someone who only knows how to craft a good story?Somewhat, yes. A writer that knows about these things knows what is doable and what isn't. They can focus on the things that they know they can do, and not have to go back and change the story later if the project leader says they can't do it.
>Here's a question for you: How come no one is LOOKING for writers? There isn't a single wanted ad for a writer on the site. Anyone??
I am a writer and have help with writing too, so, I wouldn't be looking... I would be willing to help anyone who needed it with a story if they would put my name in the credits, and maybe a small logo/link depending on the help level.
>how many have you have talked with someone who knows something about storywriting?
I have ideas extremely easily, so many they come from my dreams as well, but I might need help in a few small areas, everyone could use multiple writers, I've found they can even give me more ideas, as well as contributing their own.
>Writing is an art, just like 3d modelling, and it too takes time and effort to get right.
It takes, in some cases, lots of time, sometimes ideas are hard to find, usually when you get into the story deeply, but in the beginning usually there is an overflow of ideas, and you also have to know what people will like...
>I'm not busy programming much atm, just playing with ideas, so if anyone wants a writer to work with, let me know.
I think we all could help eachother with ideas and writing, lots of us already did in other posts, and most of the ideas were pretty good.
>the writer should have a hand in guiding the gameplay, but he shouldn't be the one controlling it
If they were controling it they would have too much power over what would be needed, and the resources could get scarce, another reason they should be more or less seperated..
>including a storyline that is so huge it sets apart everything and anything ever done in a game! And the fact that it's a multi-player FPS should really drive a knot in your head now!
Can I help? If I am interested I might be able to come up with some good ideas. Most of us have some really good ideas and just can't find the resources to get them done...
#15
The game mentioned will be horror along the lines of The Living Dead, yet much more exciting. The objective is for a realistic feel that turns a sunny farming town into hell, along the lines of such books as Salems Lot and Tommyknockers! Plans for AI and great horror effects that will scare the sh*t out of the player, large "levels" that take FPS carnage to the next level, a ton of multi-player options, including the unseen, unheard of addition I mentioned above!
I don't want to let out too much info, but like my other games, this one will be huge, and the key is the storyline!
I'll be done my site soon, and most of the details will be released.
Untill then, have fun!
P.S.: Anyone like/hate clowns?
05/03/2001 (10:35 am)
This and some of my other ideas will be posted soon, I'm redesigning my website so it's strictly for my designs.The game mentioned will be horror along the lines of The Living Dead, yet much more exciting. The objective is for a realistic feel that turns a sunny farming town into hell, along the lines of such books as Salems Lot and Tommyknockers! Plans for AI and great horror effects that will scare the sh*t out of the player, large "levels" that take FPS carnage to the next level, a ton of multi-player options, including the unseen, unheard of addition I mentioned above!
I don't want to let out too much info, but like my other games, this one will be huge, and the key is the storyline!
I'll be done my site soon, and most of the details will be released.
Untill then, have fun!
P.S.: Anyone like/hate clowns?
#16
1)Write the 1st 'episode' and ask people if it's technically possible.
2)Finish the episode on a cliffhanger, e.g., a problem to resolve or a boss to defeat.
3)Start working on that next episode:)
I'm promoting my new Episodic Games site at the moment (which will be increasingly obvious to anyone who reads the .plans or recent forum threads!)and I would really love feedback. Please check it out at www.cliffhangergames.com. I'ts still underconstruction aiming for a mid July launch. However, I want to start adding content to it now so I'd love to hear from anyone who wants to add games, news, interviews, reviews, articles etc.
05/03/2001 (12:29 pm)
How about writing Episodic Games? I love games with great stories. However, sometimes you only have a 'bit' of the story in your head. 1)Write the 1st 'episode' and ask people if it's technically possible.
2)Finish the episode on a cliffhanger, e.g., a problem to resolve or a boss to defeat.
3)Start working on that next episode:)
I'm promoting my new Episodic Games site at the moment (which will be increasingly obvious to anyone who reads the .plans or recent forum threads!)and I would really love feedback. Please check it out at www.cliffhangergames.com. I'ts still underconstruction aiming for a mid July launch. However, I want to start adding content to it now so I'd love to hear from anyone who wants to add games, news, interviews, reviews, articles etc.
#17
I like the idea. Instead of just making a site for games, it stands out by being a unique idea. Well, unique as far as I know.
I like the idea of episodic games. It gives games developers with less resources (me) a chance to break-up a project into manageable chunks.
PS. Yes, I know this has nothing to do with the thread, but I just wanted to comment on cliff-hanger.
05/03/2001 (12:46 pm)
I had a look at the site, seems pretty cool. I just have one problem with it - the width. 17in Monitor at highest res and I can only just fit on the whole page. Apart from that it's cool.I like the idea. Instead of just making a site for games, it stands out by being a unique idea. Well, unique as far as I know.
I like the idea of episodic games. It gives games developers with less resources (me) a chance to break-up a project into manageable chunks.
PS. Yes, I know this has nothing to do with the thread, but I just wanted to comment on cliff-hanger.
#18
05/03/2001 (1:57 pm)
Thanks for all the feedback Guys! As you may or may not have been able to tell, I put this here as to get a general feel for what Gamers and Game makers are looking for as far as storys go. Your thoughts and ideals have been very helpful and I would like to thank all of you for your input.
#19
If you are working with 1920 x 1200 or higher I wouldn't like it much...
05/04/2001 (5:24 am)
I use 1600 x 1200, it looks okay, not good, but okay...If you are working with 1920 x 1200 or higher I wouldn't like it much...
|tm| Braden Evans