really the TGE editor in the Tribes 2 beta ?
by Alex "Lexor" Golitsis · in General Discussion · 06/06/2002 (5:28 pm) · 64 replies
ok so I am testing out the new beta up-patch([tm] Lexor no rights reserved :P ) and _they_ (Sierra/Vivaldi/Nestle/Freemasons) keep telling us that this new T2 beta up-patch includes the great Torque game editor.
as I've known the Torque community to speak very highly of the entire engine package to-date, I am left a bit confused... to put it bluntly, I expected slick, efficient, and pro mapping tool, but so far what I've seen is a kid's toy with too much reliance on drop-down menus.
of course my first question is, is this really the TGE editor ? or is this a Sierra/Procter and Gamble thing... at the very least I ask because I've opened the Realm Wars editor before and it didn't exactly look the same.
right now I'm speaking specifically to the World Editor as I'm working on a very intricate .mis file (200k ack) for the finale of my serverside (yet creative) T2 Meltdown2 mappack.
here are my first general impressions of the T2 beta World Editor:
it's like someone took the order to "make it cleaner" a little too seriously... the alpha channel right-side panels are great, but then again that might have been enough to "open the view"... that left panel in the original T2 editor included direct, useful tools that I sorely miss. I also miss being able to toggle in and out of the editor with the same key (I have the editor bound to ALT-W).. right now I'm having to press ESC to leave the editor. and I miss the right-click menu of lock/unlock/cut/paste etc.. but then again I might be just missing it or might have to re-map it.. if it's still there. I guess I should slam all the keys down at least once ;)
as for help, sigh, the windoze-style F1 help didn't give me a keymap layout, which is all I was after, but instead coddled me like a DSL/Telco/Cable tech call with a Prozac addicted overtrained rep kinda thing ... made me woozey.
I hope I'm not criticizing the coder/author directly, but then again what I'm really here is for help for me and other veteran T2 mappers in working with this new interface, perhaps I'm missing some key things, it's only been a day, even tho' it was a busy day.
if indeed this is really the TGE editor, opinions, and links to tips, tuts, etc. from the community would be warmly appreciated :)
warm regards,
Lexor
www.lexor.tk
as I've known the Torque community to speak very highly of the entire engine package to-date, I am left a bit confused... to put it bluntly, I expected slick, efficient, and pro mapping tool, but so far what I've seen is a kid's toy with too much reliance on drop-down menus.
of course my first question is, is this really the TGE editor ? or is this a Sierra/Procter and Gamble thing... at the very least I ask because I've opened the Realm Wars editor before and it didn't exactly look the same.
right now I'm speaking specifically to the World Editor as I'm working on a very intricate .mis file (200k ack) for the finale of my serverside (yet creative) T2 Meltdown2 mappack.
here are my first general impressions of the T2 beta World Editor:
it's like someone took the order to "make it cleaner" a little too seriously... the alpha channel right-side panels are great, but then again that might have been enough to "open the view"... that left panel in the original T2 editor included direct, useful tools that I sorely miss. I also miss being able to toggle in and out of the editor with the same key (I have the editor bound to ALT-W).. right now I'm having to press ESC to leave the editor. and I miss the right-click menu of lock/unlock/cut/paste etc.. but then again I might be just missing it or might have to re-map it.. if it's still there. I guess I should slam all the keys down at least once ;)
as for help, sigh, the windoze-style F1 help didn't give me a keymap layout, which is all I was after, but instead coddled me like a DSL/Telco/Cable tech call with a Prozac addicted overtrained rep kinda thing ... made me woozey.
I hope I'm not criticizing the coder/author directly, but then again what I'm really here is for help for me and other veteran T2 mappers in working with this new interface, perhaps I'm missing some key things, it's only been a day, even tho' it was a busy day.
if indeed this is really the TGE editor, opinions, and links to tips, tuts, etc. from the community would be warmly appreciated :)
warm regards,
Lexor
www.lexor.tk
#22
First, the "new" mission editor is nothing more than a cleanup and polish of the tools that were there before. The previous interfaces were not consistent - for example, the terraformer/texture editors didn't fit at all with the other editors - and this was a major priority for fixing. Also, the editor interface with its triple-mode dealie bugged me. I'm a big fan of the T1-editor right mouse rotate thing (guess I should be - I made it that way), and so I really wanted torque to behave that way too.
Why add pull down menus? Well, actually, it was so that we wouldn't require mappers to have a keymap layout cheat sheet. In case it's not obvious, all the key mapped commands have their key combos right next to them in the pull down menus. That's also why the key maps aren't described in the help section.
What other things changed?:
*Well, the most obvious one was the addition of the terrain texture painter. A huge hole, now plugged, so users can manually edit textures for roads, paths, etc.
*Numerous speedups were made to the terrain editor itself, so operations like adjustHeight can be made with very large brushes at interactive framerates.
*I added the add dirt and excavate terrain operations to make smooth terrain editing much easier.
*Fixed a bunch of crash bugs in the editor (for example, moving of large interiors with objects inside could cause UEs).
*Made the terrain texture and heightfield "scripts" save directly into the .ter file. They're always there, you never have to deal with the extra two files. Yay.
*Made a single "save" command for people not interested in saving everything seperately. Of course it doesn't actually save anything that didn't change.
Other misc. concerns:
Key toggling to get in/out of the editor:
This does work - if you don't bind it to a menu command. ALT-W is bound to "Drop player at camera" to make moving and dropping the player easier. If you leave it on ALT-E you can toggle in and out just fine. Alternatively you can edit your EditorGui.cs file to change the menu mapping of "Drop player at camera". Thanks for the report on this - at first I couldn't figure out why it was happening.
Undo doesn't work for texture painting:
Oops. Good catch. I'll look into fixing that.
Save options are oversimplified:
True. I figured this would be a win for 99% of the mappers out there. Mike, looks like you fall in the 1%. Course if I'm wrong in my estimations, I'd like to know... I figured if you wanted to only edit the terrain, you'd only edit the terrain :D. The good news (for you, Mike) is that all the mission editor guis and scripts are available, and you can really customize the editor to be however you want, including adding an option to save only the terrain, or display the brush adjustment settings as an overlay on the terrain editor window.
For feedback to be useful, please make an honest effort to test the features - don't just do a cursory overview and then come here to bitch about it. "I have only played with the mission editor for 30 seconds and I think IT SUX0RZ!!! BEKUZ IT HAS NO KEYMAP!!" is less than useful. This patch is a beta, and as such is intended for serious beta testing, feedback from which will be beneficial to all Tribes 2 and Torque users.
If there are any "critical stuff" issues preventing people from using/testing the new editor, please let me know.
06/07/2002 (11:43 am)
Maybe I can clear up some misconceptions, as well as explain some of the features of the new mission editor.First, the "new" mission editor is nothing more than a cleanup and polish of the tools that were there before. The previous interfaces were not consistent - for example, the terraformer/texture editors didn't fit at all with the other editors - and this was a major priority for fixing. Also, the editor interface with its triple-mode dealie bugged me. I'm a big fan of the T1-editor right mouse rotate thing (guess I should be - I made it that way), and so I really wanted torque to behave that way too.
Why add pull down menus? Well, actually, it was so that we wouldn't require mappers to have a keymap layout cheat sheet. In case it's not obvious, all the key mapped commands have their key combos right next to them in the pull down menus. That's also why the key maps aren't described in the help section.
What other things changed?:
*Well, the most obvious one was the addition of the terrain texture painter. A huge hole, now plugged, so users can manually edit textures for roads, paths, etc.
*Numerous speedups were made to the terrain editor itself, so operations like adjustHeight can be made with very large brushes at interactive framerates.
*I added the add dirt and excavate terrain operations to make smooth terrain editing much easier.
*Fixed a bunch of crash bugs in the editor (for example, moving of large interiors with objects inside could cause UEs).
*Made the terrain texture and heightfield "scripts" save directly into the .ter file. They're always there, you never have to deal with the extra two files. Yay.
*Made a single "save" command for people not interested in saving everything seperately. Of course it doesn't actually save anything that didn't change.
Other misc. concerns:
Key toggling to get in/out of the editor:
This does work - if you don't bind it to a menu command. ALT-W is bound to "Drop player at camera" to make moving and dropping the player easier. If you leave it on ALT-E you can toggle in and out just fine. Alternatively you can edit your EditorGui.cs file to change the menu mapping of "Drop player at camera". Thanks for the report on this - at first I couldn't figure out why it was happening.
Undo doesn't work for texture painting:
Oops. Good catch. I'll look into fixing that.
Save options are oversimplified:
True. I figured this would be a win for 99% of the mappers out there. Mike, looks like you fall in the 1%. Course if I'm wrong in my estimations, I'd like to know... I figured if you wanted to only edit the terrain, you'd only edit the terrain :D. The good news (for you, Mike) is that all the mission editor guis and scripts are available, and you can really customize the editor to be however you want, including adding an option to save only the terrain, or display the brush adjustment settings as an overlay on the terrain editor window.
For feedback to be useful, please make an honest effort to test the features - don't just do a cursory overview and then come here to bitch about it. "I have only played with the mission editor for 30 seconds and I think IT SUX0RZ!!! BEKUZ IT HAS NO KEYMAP!!" is less than useful. This patch is a beta, and as such is intended for serious beta testing, feedback from which will be beneficial to all Tribes 2 and Torque users.
If there are any "critical stuff" issues preventing people from using/testing the new editor, please let me know.
#23
One thing I am seeing is, when creating (spawns, cameras, audio triggers, etc) th ey all spawn at 0,0,0 no matter where I am. This is a pain, manageable, but still a pain. ;)
As well, was curious what it would take to allow Spawnspheres to work properly in 32-scale maps. They do not work without some scripting that uses Cameras as spawnspheres on mission load. but this can get tedious.
Thanks!
06/07/2002 (12:11 pm)
Thank you for the great editor. Already working on a couple 32-scale maps with it, due to easily being able to get around with decent FPS.One thing I am seeing is, when creating (spawns, cameras, audio triggers, etc) th ey all spawn at 0,0,0 no matter where I am. This is a pain, manageable, but still a pain. ;)
As well, was curious what it would take to allow Spawnspheres to work properly in 32-scale maps. They do not work without some scripting that uses Cameras as spawnspheres on mission load. but this can get tedious.
Thanks!
#24
06/07/2002 (12:19 pm)
I'll have to look into all the $pref::WorldEditor::* stuff in ClientPrefs.cs and the editor related *.gui and *.cs files. Some custom brush gui's that allow selecting different brushes would make things alot easier and faster. And a toggle button that changes stuff like $pref::WorldEditor::mouseMoveScale would be cool. Realize, I'm spoiled from 10 years of Photoshop use.
#25
Great job.
I was mapping for Legends for a little while, so I knew the editor a little. Likewise, I'm glad to see a nice INTEGRATION of the best features from both (i.e. robust texture editor with preview window).
Anyways, in light of the pretense and drama initially in this thread, I wanted to swing by and tell y'all that we have some threads over at Bytor's tribes2maps.com for collecting bugs and answering questions. Hopefully we can collect as much information as possible and channel them back to you via Bytor, Nefilim and/or Zod.
Peace
06/07/2002 (12:29 pm)
TseTse here. I was one of the closed beta testers on this new editor patch, and I just want to say THANKS. Great job.
I was mapping for Legends for a little while, so I knew the editor a little. Likewise, I'm glad to see a nice INTEGRATION of the best features from both (i.e. robust texture editor with preview window).
Anyways, in light of the pretense and drama initially in this thread, I wanted to swing by and tell y'all that we have some threads over at Bytor's tribes2maps.com for collecting bugs and answering questions. Hopefully we can collect as much information as possible and channel them back to you via Bytor, Nefilim and/or Zod.
Peace
#26
http://www.tribes2maps.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2993
06/07/2002 (12:31 pm)
btw, the t2maps.com "bugs" thread is the following:http://www.tribes2maps.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2993
#27
06/07/2002 (12:36 pm)
Quote:Finally at the end you get to your point, but by now most of the people who would have helped you are a bit unsure of if you're not just another BEEFMan.Shucks, thanks form mentionin' me man! I'm just plain stupit, thas all! Huh helk
#28
When I press F11 to go into the world editor, it places me and my character at the world origin (I think) so my character is falling through the world.
Anyone else got that?
Its fine if I Alt-C first so I guess its a control object placement thingy..
Phil.
06/07/2002 (1:01 pm)
Mark, one thing Ive come across (unless its been fixed recently).When I press F11 to go into the world editor, it places me and my character at the world origin (I think) so my character is falling through the world.
Anyone else got that?
Its fine if I Alt-C first so I guess its a control object placement thingy..
Phil.
#29
06/07/2002 (2:20 pm)
yep does that to me recently too. . . .
#30
06/07/2002 (2:22 pm)
Yep, I'm with you since my last merge a couple of days ago...
#31
06/07/2002 (2:36 pm)
I took a current mission project and highlighted the terrain with the terrain painter (very cool tool!). But, when I put the changed mission (+new terrain file) back into the current version of T2, the terrain will not display. I was wondering if painted .ter files are not compatible with the current T2 version. Please advise, thanks!
#32
06/07/2002 (2:46 pm)
The terrain file format has changed, I believe.
#33
- how can you expect a whole community of mappers who learned the old way for many many months to adapt to something new without any documentation?
not many T2 players are going to innately know that they can go to the GG site and find some docs which they probably need to buy Torque to get access to the good docs anyway.
Though my point is NULL if there is a doc file included with the final T2 patch
.
It would be hard to get any reliable feedback from something when there is no instructions on how to use it compared to the old way - its harder to relearn than it is to start from scratch I believe (Photoshop to Painter is one personal example)
I dont mind both editors myself.
I know Lexor, will be sad to see him leave T2 mapping as he was one of the dedicated modders, not just a pretty face.
oh, and to Robert B "Funny thing is, the old Tribes 2 editor didn't even WORK!! "
You are wrong about that, it did work. It worked just fine for me, I never had to use an old version to make maps.
06/08/2002 (8:27 am)
I think the main point is.- how can you expect a whole community of mappers who learned the old way for many many months to adapt to something new without any documentation?
not many T2 players are going to innately know that they can go to the GG site and find some docs which they probably need to buy Torque to get access to the good docs anyway.
Though my point is NULL if there is a doc file included with the final T2 patch
.
It would be hard to get any reliable feedback from something when there is no instructions on how to use it compared to the old way - its harder to relearn than it is to start from scratch I believe (Photoshop to Painter is one personal example)
I dont mind both editors myself.
I know Lexor, will be sad to see him leave T2 mapping as he was one of the dedicated modders, not just a pretty face.
oh, and to Robert B "Funny thing is, the old Tribes 2 editor didn't even WORK!! "
You are wrong about that, it did work. It worked just fine for me, I never had to use an old version to make maps.
#35
The one problem I had is when i edit a map, exit the map, reload another map and press F11, everything crashes. Its like this for every map I try, but its possible I'm using an older version. Haven't updated in a while.
Oh, and something probably not related to the tool, but still an error that occurs when using the editor. When painting the textures on the terain manually... do any of you guys get black areas too? Sometimes I have these black areas, I get rid of them by overpainting them, sometimes I have to overpaint them a couple of times (with bigger brush, so the areas around it becomes the same texture too) before it works. I'm using 256*256 png, so, I don't see what the problem could be, defenetly becuase the textures work fine when I texture the terain the old way.
06/08/2002 (10:31 am)
There's only one thing I had problems with using the new editor, and its truely the only thing I came across up til now. This tool is great.The one problem I had is when i edit a map, exit the map, reload another map and press F11, everything crashes. Its like this for every map I try, but its possible I'm using an older version. Haven't updated in a while.
Oh, and something probably not related to the tool, but still an error that occurs when using the editor. When painting the textures on the terain manually... do any of you guys get black areas too? Sometimes I have these black areas, I get rid of them by overpainting them, sometimes I have to overpaint them a couple of times (with bigger brush, so the areas around it becomes the same texture too) before it works. I'm using 256*256 png, so, I don't see what the problem could be, defenetly becuase the textures work fine when I texture the terain the old way.
#36
Don't tell me your old editor was able to paint textures manually on the terain, have a good FPS (one that allows you to edit terain real time without having to wait for 2 seconds before it does what you asked), was able to use brushes that big (for terain manipulation).... it "just DIDN't work" was said in the context of "it did only half of what it was supposed to do"
Anyway, I wouldn't care about people saying the editor sucks... the garagegames community welcomed it with open arms... everyone around here is fond of it. If we can use it, why can't the others? becuase they're stuck in a habit, don't want to learn new ways. Artist are supposed to be flexible people, something that can't be said of these wankers (sorry for my choice of words here)
06/08/2002 (10:37 am)
Quote:oh, and to Robert B "Funny thing is, the old Tribes 2 editor didn't even WORK!! "
You are wrong about that, it did work. It worked just fine for me, I never had to use an old version to make maps.
Don't tell me your old editor was able to paint textures manually on the terain, have a good FPS (one that allows you to edit terain real time without having to wait for 2 seconds before it does what you asked), was able to use brushes that big (for terain manipulation).... it "just DIDN't work" was said in the context of "it did only half of what it was supposed to do"
Anyway, I wouldn't care about people saying the editor sucks... the garagegames community welcomed it with open arms... everyone around here is fond of it. If we can use it, why can't the others? becuase they're stuck in a habit, don't want to learn new ways. Artist are supposed to be flexible people, something that can't be said of these wankers (sorry for my choice of words here)
#37
06/08/2002 (10:51 am)
Ward, the crash after reloading missions was fixed some months ago... so with your next update it should be gone anyway... was a simple script change, though... I think it's in the resources somewhere...
#39
06/08/2002 (3:03 pm)
k tnx, guess I better update soon ;) 
Torque Owner Matt W
A prereq to be one is to think you're God's gift to everything. (yes, I was a level designer; of course I was one of the less egotistical ones!)
Is this mod "Revolution" a real mod, or a Tribes 2 mod where you make people run faster or weapons fire quicker or do less damage?
Oh, and in my opinion no level designer will be getting work in a pay-up-front position through GarageGames. If anyone, an artist and possibly a very skilled programmer. Level designers are just too common.