really the TGE editor in the Tribes 2 beta ?
by Alex "Lexor" Golitsis · in General Discussion · 06/06/2002 (5:28 pm) · 64 replies
ok so I am testing out the new beta up-patch([tm] Lexor no rights reserved :P ) and _they_ (Sierra/Vivaldi/Nestle/Freemasons) keep telling us that this new T2 beta up-patch includes the great Torque game editor.
as I've known the Torque community to speak very highly of the entire engine package to-date, I am left a bit confused... to put it bluntly, I expected slick, efficient, and pro mapping tool, but so far what I've seen is a kid's toy with too much reliance on drop-down menus.
of course my first question is, is this really the TGE editor ? or is this a Sierra/Procter and Gamble thing... at the very least I ask because I've opened the Realm Wars editor before and it didn't exactly look the same.
right now I'm speaking specifically to the World Editor as I'm working on a very intricate .mis file (200k ack) for the finale of my serverside (yet creative) T2 Meltdown2 mappack.
here are my first general impressions of the T2 beta World Editor:
it's like someone took the order to "make it cleaner" a little too seriously... the alpha channel right-side panels are great, but then again that might have been enough to "open the view"... that left panel in the original T2 editor included direct, useful tools that I sorely miss. I also miss being able to toggle in and out of the editor with the same key (I have the editor bound to ALT-W).. right now I'm having to press ESC to leave the editor. and I miss the right-click menu of lock/unlock/cut/paste etc.. but then again I might be just missing it or might have to re-map it.. if it's still there. I guess I should slam all the keys down at least once ;)
as for help, sigh, the windoze-style F1 help didn't give me a keymap layout, which is all I was after, but instead coddled me like a DSL/Telco/Cable tech call with a Prozac addicted overtrained rep kinda thing ... made me woozey.
I hope I'm not criticizing the coder/author directly, but then again what I'm really here is for help for me and other veteran T2 mappers in working with this new interface, perhaps I'm missing some key things, it's only been a day, even tho' it was a busy day.
if indeed this is really the TGE editor, opinions, and links to tips, tuts, etc. from the community would be warmly appreciated :)
warm regards,
Lexor
www.lexor.tk
as I've known the Torque community to speak very highly of the entire engine package to-date, I am left a bit confused... to put it bluntly, I expected slick, efficient, and pro mapping tool, but so far what I've seen is a kid's toy with too much reliance on drop-down menus.
of course my first question is, is this really the TGE editor ? or is this a Sierra/Procter and Gamble thing... at the very least I ask because I've opened the Realm Wars editor before and it didn't exactly look the same.
right now I'm speaking specifically to the World Editor as I'm working on a very intricate .mis file (200k ack) for the finale of my serverside (yet creative) T2 Meltdown2 mappack.
here are my first general impressions of the T2 beta World Editor:
it's like someone took the order to "make it cleaner" a little too seriously... the alpha channel right-side panels are great, but then again that might have been enough to "open the view"... that left panel in the original T2 editor included direct, useful tools that I sorely miss. I also miss being able to toggle in and out of the editor with the same key (I have the editor bound to ALT-W).. right now I'm having to press ESC to leave the editor. and I miss the right-click menu of lock/unlock/cut/paste etc.. but then again I might be just missing it or might have to re-map it.. if it's still there. I guess I should slam all the keys down at least once ;)
as for help, sigh, the windoze-style F1 help didn't give me a keymap layout, which is all I was after, but instead coddled me like a DSL/Telco/Cable tech call with a Prozac addicted overtrained rep kinda thing ... made me woozey.
I hope I'm not criticizing the coder/author directly, but then again what I'm really here is for help for me and other veteran T2 mappers in working with this new interface, perhaps I'm missing some key things, it's only been a day, even tho' it was a busy day.
if indeed this is really the TGE editor, opinions, and links to tips, tuts, etc. from the community would be warmly appreciated :)
warm regards,
Lexor
www.lexor.tk
#2
06/06/2002 (7:54 pm)
Well, he obviously didn't intend to make friends with that post, so I guess he'll get what he wants...
#3
I think most of his frustration stems from the fact that he is unwilling to adapt to a better editor/editor interface.
06/06/2002 (9:27 pm)
I love your reply Jeff Tunnell ;pI think most of his frustration stems from the fact that he is unwilling to adapt to a better editor/editor interface.
#4
We have to realize this person probably is posting this from inside a prison (I hear every inmate gets AOL for free) and his attitude is clearly understandable.
No women, bad food, little natural light, and only basic cable.
Of course, he might just be a normal person like you and me... and then, well... he's just a jerk.
06/06/2002 (9:38 pm)
It's okay.We have to realize this person probably is posting this from inside a prison (I hear every inmate gets AOL for free) and his attitude is clearly understandable.
No women, bad food, little natural light, and only basic cable.
Of course, he might just be a normal person like you and me... and then, well... he's just a jerk.
#5
I think the real definition of insanity is doing something different every time you do it and expecting the SAME outcome.
Either way, some people just want to complain, especially about things they are getting for FREE!
It is like 98 degrees down here in Atlanta, so HOT regards to everyone!
06/06/2002 (9:46 pm)
someone once said that the true defination of insanity was repeating the exact same thing over and over expecting a DIFFERENT out come.I think the real definition of insanity is doing something different every time you do it and expecting the SAME outcome.
Either way, some people just want to complain, especially about things they are getting for FREE!
It is like 98 degrees down here in Atlanta, so HOT regards to everyone!
#6
06/06/2002 (10:05 pm)
Can we stay at your house this weekend, Jarrod ?
#7
the truth is, I did not post here to suck-up, I posted this here because this seemed very Torque/GG related. Instead I got a reply that is very similar to the kind of stuff that I would expect from Sierra -- and that's no complement.
I know dev tools, having written some myself, and I have concerns. I point-out specifics of what was on my mind, and my points got ignored... so far.
To be honest, today I'm left with a much lower comfort level with Garage Games and Torque, and for that you can now pat yourselves on the back.
Regards,
Alex Golitsis (Lexor)
06/07/2002 (8:58 am)
Can someone explain why my post is so upsetting ? I tried explaining my situation with a bit of humour and sarcasm, perhaps that is what was misunderstood. Sorry to all you Sierra/Vivendi stock holders.the truth is, I did not post here to suck-up, I posted this here because this seemed very Torque/GG related. Instead I got a reply that is very similar to the kind of stuff that I would expect from Sierra -- and that's no complement.
I know dev tools, having written some myself, and I have concerns. I point-out specifics of what was on my mind, and my points got ignored... so far.
To be honest, today I'm left with a much lower comfort level with Garage Games and Torque, and for that you can now pat yourselves on the back.
Regards,
Alex Golitsis (Lexor)
#8
06/07/2002 (9:23 am)
Well, everything you critized are some some tiny, little details now handled *differently* in the new editor, and some really unimportant stuff like which key is used to close it (which could be changed in a second in the scripts, btw.), so what is your point here if it's not to be rude and picky? Your post really doesn't sound very nice, and if you've already written some editors yourself, why don't you go ahead and *do* it one more time?? If you don't like it and aren't willing to change some of your editing habits, don't use it - it's as simple as that! Use the old editor, if you think it's better...
#9
You get what you give.
Your post started out someplace in left field with the Sierra, Vivaldi(huh?), Nestle(??), Freemasons(??) comment.
Next you let us know your expectations were way to high by saying you thought this would be a "Pro Mapping" tool (Those things usually cost extra). Not sure what your problem is with the dropdown menu, it's better then losing 1/3 to 1/2 your screen to the "surround your screen with option panels" that the origional T2 editor used.
The rest of the post seems to be a complaint that it's not the Origional T2 editor, it gives you too much help, and you couldn't get a Keymap (The T2 origional editor didn't provide one either)
Finally at the end you get to your point, but by now most of the people who would have helped you are a bit unsure of if you're not just another BEEFMan.
Perhapse if you had just stuck with:
"Hi, I'm a Tribes2 Mapper and I'm playing with the new Map Editor from the T2 Beta Patch. I'm having a few problems with the Interface, perhaps I'm missing some key things, it's only been a day, even tho' it was a busy day, opinions, and links to tips, tuts, etc. from the community would be warmly appreciated :)"
The sarcastic posts that followed wouldn't have happened. (Other ones maybe, but not the complete lack of help you just received)
06/07/2002 (9:30 am)
Actually you were seeing a perfect example of:You get what you give.
Your post started out someplace in left field with the Sierra, Vivaldi(huh?), Nestle(??), Freemasons(??) comment.
Next you let us know your expectations were way to high by saying you thought this would be a "Pro Mapping" tool (Those things usually cost extra). Not sure what your problem is with the dropdown menu, it's better then losing 1/3 to 1/2 your screen to the "surround your screen with option panels" that the origional T2 editor used.
The rest of the post seems to be a complaint that it's not the Origional T2 editor, it gives you too much help, and you couldn't get a Keymap (The T2 origional editor didn't provide one either)
Finally at the end you get to your point, but by now most of the people who would have helped you are a bit unsure of if you're not just another BEEFMan.
Perhapse if you had just stuck with:
"Hi, I'm a Tribes2 Mapper and I'm playing with the new Map Editor from the T2 Beta Patch. I'm having a few problems with the Interface, perhaps I'm missing some key things, it's only been a day, even tho' it was a busy day, opinions, and links to tips, tuts, etc. from the community would be warmly appreciated :)"
The sarcastic posts that followed wouldn't have happened. (Other ones maybe, but not the complete lack of help you just received)
#10
yes, perhaps I was a bit frustrated when I posted but please keep in mind that I was representing others in the T2 mapping community who are also confused as to why core functionality would possibly be removed...
I was hoping that if indeed this is the TGE editor, I could find some tips, scripts, etc. to help out the T2 mapping community.
I am still holding out hope.. however I certainly don't feel welcomed in the GG/Torque community.
06/07/2002 (9:41 am)
ahh, finally a voice I have learned to trust over the years, thanks for your kind and helpful words LabRat.yes, perhaps I was a bit frustrated when I posted but please keep in mind that I was representing others in the T2 mapping community who are also confused as to why core functionality would possibly be removed...
I was hoping that if indeed this is the TGE editor, I could find some tips, scripts, etc. to help out the T2 mapping community.
I am still holding out hope.. however I certainly don't feel welcomed in the GG/Torque community.
#11
...so what is it, the truth hurts or something ?? You'll never be a "community game company" if you can't accept criticism from the community."
In my opinion your comments in your first post were patronizing and now you follow it up with another condescending post.
"I know dev tools, having written some myself, and I have concerns. I point-out specifics of what was on my mind, and my points got ignored."
I only saw one question in your first post, "is this really the TGE editor ?", this was answered by Jeff Tunnel as yes, it is the TGE editor. As you state "I know dev tools...", and therefor you know that making cross-platform tools is time consuming especially since the TGE uses it's own GUI lib. I feel the TGE editor is currently a very useful tool which has only improved since the initial release of TGE (then called V12) and the editor will continue to evolve.
Everything else I saw was a collection of unconstructive comments that you have to dissect to get to some possible additional recommendations. As for the key binding's, I am not familiar with the T2 editor, but with TGE you can get that information from the .cs file.
--Aaron
06/07/2002 (9:42 am)
"Can someone explain why my post is so upsetting ?... ...so what is it, the truth hurts or something ?? You'll never be a "community game company" if you can't accept criticism from the community."
In my opinion your comments in your first post were patronizing and now you follow it up with another condescending post.
"I know dev tools, having written some myself, and I have concerns. I point-out specifics of what was on my mind, and my points got ignored."
I only saw one question in your first post, "is this really the TGE editor ?", this was answered by Jeff Tunnel as yes, it is the TGE editor. As you state "I know dev tools...", and therefor you know that making cross-platform tools is time consuming especially since the TGE uses it's own GUI lib. I feel the TGE editor is currently a very useful tool which has only improved since the initial release of TGE (then called V12) and the editor will continue to evolve.
Everything else I saw was a collection of unconstructive comments that you have to dissect to get to some possible additional recommendations. As for the key binding's, I am not familiar with the T2 editor, but with TGE you can get that information from the .cs file.
--Aaron
#12
06/07/2002 (9:48 am)
hey there Aaron, I reserve the right to edit my posts for at least a few minutes after I post them, so don't go quoting stuff that isn't even there anymore. 
#13
Man I hear EVERY game company are looking for mod makers, mod Revolution? A VERY popular mod, worth bragging about. If you don't have time to learn a new tool why do you think anyone would spend money on you?
Oh I know this is a over kill flame. But I LOVE the new Editor and I hate seeing some good work like the editor, get critizied by some guy who can't even take the TIME to learn how to use the editor. You know it has only been out a few days. If you spent more time IN the editor than comming here blaming GG for your lack of patience. You might actually learn HOW to use the editor BEFORE it's OFFICIAL release.
06/07/2002 (9:55 am)
I love flaming Quote:
I have created a variety of Tribes 2 maps, and recently I created the Tribes 2 mod Revolution.
www.lexor.tk
I am currently looking for a career in game development, I am available immediately, and I work cheap. Please note that I only have time available for paying work at the moment.
Man I hear EVERY game company are looking for mod makers, mod Revolution? A VERY popular mod, worth bragging about. If you don't have time to learn a new tool why do you think anyone would spend money on you?
Oh I know this is a over kill flame. But I LOVE the new Editor and I hate seeing some good work like the editor, get critizied by some guy who can't even take the TIME to learn how to use the editor. You know it has only been out a few days. If you spent more time IN the editor than comming here blaming GG for your lack of patience. You might actually learn HOW to use the editor BEFORE it's OFFICIAL release.
#14
Lesson to be learned, don't press the SUBMIT button unless you really want everyone to see what you posted, and if you do, have the balls to stand by what posted.
I usually try to go back and edit only spelling and grammer problems and mark additions with EDIT: or the like, but never remove anything, it looks bad.
06/07/2002 (9:59 am)
and everyone else reserves the right to quote what you posted regardless of your regrets afterwards.Lesson to be learned, don't press the SUBMIT button unless you really want everyone to see what you posted, and if you do, have the balls to stand by what posted.
I usually try to go back and edit only spelling and grammer problems and mark additions with EDIT: or the like, but never remove anything, it looks bad.
#15
as for my bio, it's not exactly accurate anymore. We're currently working on opening a games studio in Toronto, Canada.
so what else do you want to know about me ?
as for this thread, I guess it's time to apologize for upsetting GG and the regulars here. As LabRat told me, I should have made it short and sweet. so I am sorry. but don't cheer just yet, read on.
as for answers to why I posted here in the first place, Aaron seems to have the best info so far:
> making cross-platform tools is time consuming
> especially since the TGE uses it's own GUI lib.
> I feel the TGE editor is currently a very useful
> tool which has only improved since the initial
> release of TGE (then called V12) and the editor
> will continue to evolve.
hmmm, soooo... the T2 editor is now a compromise to allow support of other platforms, which of course Sierra doesn't offer with T2 anyway. yes, this is only one interpretation but so far it's the closest thing to an answer I've seen.
I would continue working with the beta editor to get a better "feel" for it, but with the list of bugs growing every day, including some critical stuff, I will probably have to revert to an older version for now.
back to work :)
warm regards from
Lexor
06/07/2002 (10:03 am)
hmm, the Revolution hasn't had any sort of public release yet, so no wonder it's not exactly really popular just yet ;) so what did you think of it when you tried it ? yes, I am being facetious, I didn't expect you'd do your homework before flaming away.as for my bio, it's not exactly accurate anymore. We're currently working on opening a games studio in Toronto, Canada.
so what else do you want to know about me ?
as for this thread, I guess it's time to apologize for upsetting GG and the regulars here. As LabRat told me, I should have made it short and sweet. so I am sorry. but don't cheer just yet, read on.
as for answers to why I posted here in the first place, Aaron seems to have the best info so far:
> making cross-platform tools is time consuming
> especially since the TGE uses it's own GUI lib.
> I feel the TGE editor is currently a very useful
> tool which has only improved since the initial
> release of TGE (then called V12) and the editor
> will continue to evolve.
hmmm, soooo... the T2 editor is now a compromise to allow support of other platforms, which of course Sierra doesn't offer with T2 anyway. yes, this is only one interpretation but so far it's the closest thing to an answer I've seen.
I would continue working with the beta editor to get a better "feel" for it, but with the list of bugs growing every day, including some critical stuff, I will probably have to revert to an older version for now.
back to work :)
warm regards from
Lexor
#16
One of the best Tribes 2 mappers I know, Nefilim, loves the torque editor and would choose it over the old Tribes 2 editor in a heart beat.
I know many other mappers who would choose the torque editor over the old Tribes 2 editor in a flash as well.
Funny thing is, the old Tribes 2 editor didn't even WORK!!
You had to use a version of the editor that came out when the game was first released.
You can't honestly sit here and tell me that the old Tribes 2 editor is better in any way, shape, or form.
Different, yes. Grow up, learn to adapt, and deal with it.
06/07/2002 (10:20 am)
I fail to see how the "core functionality" of Tribes 2 editor has been removed by the torque editor?One of the best Tribes 2 mappers I know, Nefilim, loves the torque editor and would choose it over the old Tribes 2 editor in a heart beat.
I know many other mappers who would choose the torque editor over the old Tribes 2 editor in a flash as well.
Funny thing is, the old Tribes 2 editor didn't even WORK!!
You had to use a version of the editor that came out when the game was first released.
You can't honestly sit here and tell me that the old Tribes 2 editor is better in any way, shape, or form.
Different, yes. Grow up, learn to adapt, and deal with it.
#17
I need to play with this editor some more, but right now, I'm not impressed. The only added functionality that I've seen is the terrain texture painting, which is a very nice addition. Still, I was hoping for more.
06/07/2002 (10:25 am)
I'm a bit shocked at the reaction Alex received. Whether you considered his criticisms overly harsh or not, he did bring up some valid points.I need to play with this editor some more, but right now, I'm not impressed. The only added functionality that I've seen is the terrain texture painting, which is a very nice addition. Still, I was hoping for more.
#18
06/07/2002 (10:30 am)
So what exactly did you expect? I think it's an awesome tool, but maybe someone could give some details what they want the editor to do? I can't think of anything else I would need at the moment...
#19
The mirroring tool needs a little more functionality. Simple reflection is not enough. I want to reflect and flip so that sides of a map are truly even. Right now, with the old editor I maximize that mission area window, grab a screenshot, do my mirroring in Photoshop and then use the bitmap for generating my terrains.
Undo doesn't work consistently for all edit windows. Doesn't work with the terrain painting. Get it right the first time or restart.
The save option looks overly simplified. Many times I only want to save the terrain file, not everything else. Is this an option? To save just the mis or ter file individually? If not, I going to have to work with multiple version of my map.
Some things that were a pain in the ass in the old editor are still so. I frequently need to adjust the mouse movement settings so I can drag an object fast or slow. I really wish there was a shortcut to this, such as alt click dragging to move an object quickly. And the brush adjustment settings, I wish there was a shortcut to this also, I'm always adjusting the softness curve on brushes or the height adjustment settings.
Again, I've had very little experience with the new editor, these are just first impressions so don't get too bent out of shape. Right now I see alot of interface and cosmetic changes, plus terrain painting. And for the person that said you could only use the old editor in an unpatched version of T2, well, that hasn't been my experience. I use the latest patch and the editor works just fine. I've never had any complaints about the editors stability.
06/07/2002 (10:56 am)
Again, I need to play around with it some more. But some first impressions -The mirroring tool needs a little more functionality. Simple reflection is not enough. I want to reflect and flip so that sides of a map are truly even. Right now, with the old editor I maximize that mission area window, grab a screenshot, do my mirroring in Photoshop and then use the bitmap for generating my terrains.
Undo doesn't work consistently for all edit windows. Doesn't work with the terrain painting. Get it right the first time or restart.
The save option looks overly simplified. Many times I only want to save the terrain file, not everything else. Is this an option? To save just the mis or ter file individually? If not, I going to have to work with multiple version of my map.
Some things that were a pain in the ass in the old editor are still so. I frequently need to adjust the mouse movement settings so I can drag an object fast or slow. I really wish there was a shortcut to this, such as alt click dragging to move an object quickly. And the brush adjustment settings, I wish there was a shortcut to this also, I'm always adjusting the softness curve on brushes or the height adjustment settings.
Again, I've had very little experience with the new editor, these are just first impressions so don't get too bent out of shape. Right now I see alot of interface and cosmetic changes, plus terrain painting. And for the person that said you could only use the old editor in an unpatched version of T2, well, that hasn't been my experience. I use the latest patch and the editor works just fine. I've never had any complaints about the editors stability.
#20
if this is not the place to post this list, then maybe someone should have pointed me to an appropriate thread a while back.
World Editor:
1. the World Editor display
it can't seem to display an object browser, info panel, as well as the mission tree on-screen together anymore. two new, needless keystrokes now required to access all three commonly needed panels.
2. right mouse hold-down to rotate the camera and editor start-up glitches
the right-mouse scroll is one long extra keystroke. most of the time the editor has opened with the cursor already on a text field, so I have to right-click the mouse just to get the camera moving. this is all-around more straining and less functional than the tab-toggle.
3. missing left options/functions bar in World Editor
that vital control panel on the left saved even more button clicks. drop-down menus are yet more extra effort for commonly-used functions.
4. macro save/load (.mac files) don't seem to be available.
regardless of what you may have heard, the Tribes 2 community is alive and well, and we're giving this editor a thorough hammering. I'm here ready to help make it better, and a better T2 editor will also mean a better Torque editor ;)
06/07/2002 (11:20 am)
this is my "core functionality" list so far... the rest of the T2 community is busy at work on bug lists relating to the beta patch and the new (for the T2 community anyway) editor. some may be Torque bugs, and some may be just beta-patch related, but rest assured that the T2 community is giving this mission editor as much of a hammering as the Torque community ever has.if this is not the place to post this list, then maybe someone should have pointed me to an appropriate thread a while back.
World Editor:
1. the World Editor display
it can't seem to display an object browser, info panel, as well as the mission tree on-screen together anymore. two new, needless keystrokes now required to access all three commonly needed panels.
2. right mouse hold-down to rotate the camera and editor start-up glitches
the right-mouse scroll is one long extra keystroke. most of the time the editor has opened with the cursor already on a text field, so I have to right-click the mouse just to get the camera moving. this is all-around more straining and less functional than the tab-toggle.
3. missing left options/functions bar in World Editor
that vital control panel on the left saved even more button clicks. drop-down menus are yet more extra effort for commonly-used functions.
4. macro save/load (.mac files) don't seem to be available.
regardless of what you may have heard, the Tribes 2 community is alive and well, and we're giving this editor a thorough hammering. I'm here ready to help make it better, and a better T2 editor will also mean a better Torque editor ;)
Torque Owner Jeff Tunnell
The editor in the Tribes 2 update is, indeed, the Torque Editor. Oh, and I'll pass on to Mark Frohnmayer, lead programmer on Tribes 2, co-founder of GarageGames, and updater of the editor, your warmest wishes.
Have a nice day.
Jeff Tunnell
President, GarageGames
Co-founder Dynamix and GarageGames
Employment Status: Employed in the games industry. Make no offers.