Which engine to start with? TGE or TGB?
by Walt Lock · in General Discussion · 12/13/2006 (4:04 am) · 11 replies
I've been working on and playing with multiplayer persistent games for quite a while now (Don't want to say how long, but let's just say I remember thinking that adding graphics would "ruin the immersion"). So naturally, I want to make an MMO one day: yes, I know, me and about 850,000 other people. I see much advice to start with puzzle games or something similar, but I honestly don't know anything about those. I been playing and working with and on fantasy game settings for thirty years now.
My plan is to start with single player, one village and one dungeon games. Then single player multi dungeon. Then multi player co-operative. Then semi-persistant (where players can enter and leave at any time). And finally a persistant world with functioning economy and tradeskilling. At that point I should have enough of a solid product and fully fleshed out design doc to go get some real funding and finish the project on Unreal 3 (or 4 or 5 depending on how long this process takes).
All of these would be built in the same game world, so I could develop lore and expand game mechanics as I go - similar to how Blizzard went with Warcraft, then Battle.Net, then WoW, only not nearly as big or beautiful, at least, not until I'm making the big and beautiful dough ;)
My question for the communty is this: Since I want to end up with a 3D persistant world, should I start with the 3D TGE, where there is an MMO kit with some classes, races and other features already coded, or make my first few games with the 2D TGB then switch over at some point?
I'll have to learn Torque either way, but I could get finished products sooner with a 2D start. I would pay for it later though when the time to switch comes.
My coding experience is in C and Java (and Pascal if you go way back), with scripting on a CircleMUD base. For tools I have licensed versions of Poser, Illustrator, Photoshop, and an older version of CorelDRAW. Any other tool suggestions would be appreciated as well.
Thanks in advance for any and all advice and suggestions.
My plan is to start with single player, one village and one dungeon games. Then single player multi dungeon. Then multi player co-operative. Then semi-persistant (where players can enter and leave at any time). And finally a persistant world with functioning economy and tradeskilling. At that point I should have enough of a solid product and fully fleshed out design doc to go get some real funding and finish the project on Unreal 3 (or 4 or 5 depending on how long this process takes).
All of these would be built in the same game world, so I could develop lore and expand game mechanics as I go - similar to how Blizzard went with Warcraft, then Battle.Net, then WoW, only not nearly as big or beautiful, at least, not until I'm making the big and beautiful dough ;)
My question for the communty is this: Since I want to end up with a 3D persistant world, should I start with the 3D TGE, where there is an MMO kit with some classes, races and other features already coded, or make my first few games with the 2D TGB then switch over at some point?
I'll have to learn Torque either way, but I could get finished products sooner with a 2D start. I would pay for it later though when the time to switch comes.
My coding experience is in C and Java (and Pascal if you go way back), with scripting on a CircleMUD base. For tools I have licensed versions of Poser, Illustrator, Photoshop, and an older version of CorelDRAW. Any other tool suggestions would be appreciated as well.
Thanks in advance for any and all advice and suggestions.
#2
12/13/2006 (7:34 am)
For your instance, since you have nearly no interest in single-player games except as a gateway, I would suggest TGE. It will require you to think in a client/server model for what you do. It and the books on Torque from Finney and Maurina will get you up and running quickly. It has a higher learning curve, but I think it would be more oriented towards the way you think of gaming.
#3
12/13/2006 (9:18 am)
Thats the sentence i was looking for :)
#5
If I do things right I should be able to use a lot of what I create for the early projects later on, or at least build off them.
12/14/2006 (1:56 am)
Thanks for all the feedback. I've ordered the all in one programming book, and will start with the TGE for now. If I do things right I should be able to use a lot of what I create for the early projects later on, or at least build off them.
#7
I bought TGE back in 2001, 4-5 year later I haven't made a single game that's polished/finished enough to be sold. But recently I got TGB, and after 1 month I have a game that's 95% done. Not only was I able to make a game fast, it was also a good learning experience. I now understand TGE better too. So, first another TGB game, but after that, I might just jump back into TGE :)
I really think this is a good way to start with game dev. Actually finish something in TGB, then move on to TGE (or stick with TGB).
12/16/2006 (6:42 am)
I would have said TGB but it looks like you already bought TGE. Why TGB? Basically becuase it has better documentation and better tutorials. I bought TGE back in 2001, 4-5 year later I haven't made a single game that's polished/finished enough to be sold. But recently I got TGB, and after 1 month I have a game that's 95% done. Not only was I able to make a game fast, it was also a good learning experience. I now understand TGE better too. So, first another TGB game, but after that, I might just jump back into TGE :)
I really think this is a good way to start with game dev. Actually finish something in TGB, then move on to TGE (or stick with TGB).
#8
What was your major obstacle in finishing the games in TGE?
And what was it about TGB that made it so much easier? just the 2d aspect?
12/16/2006 (6:58 am)
I haven't bought it yet, but I've ordered the 3d all in one book, which should be in next week.What was your major obstacle in finishing the games in TGE?
And what was it about TGB that made it so much easier? just the 2d aspect?
#9
I also think TGE is too "big"... I mean, its easy to get distracted and do things that aren't so important. Hard to explain.
For my next games I will really look into combining TGE and TGB, and use TGB for GUI stuff. So that knowledge isn't wasted.
12/16/2006 (8:03 am)
One of the things that make TGB better to start with are the docs and the tutorials. If you are new to Torque and Torquescript, those TGB docs will get you going a lot faster then anything I have seen on TGE so far.I also think TGE is too "big"... I mean, its easy to get distracted and do things that aren't so important. Hard to explain.
For my next games I will really look into combining TGE and TGB, and use TGB for GUI stuff. So that knowledge isn't wasted.
#10
12/16/2006 (8:44 am)
But...if you have no interest in making 2D games, don't bother with TGB.
#11
Learn the Torquescript language and its errors in TGB first and then move on to TGE. Worst case, if you can only buy one and really want 3D, the good news is that it can be done with just TGE.
The major obstacle to finishing games is the sheer amount of work it takes to get something done. The basics are actually pretty simple and you have a high motivation to get them done. Then you need to do the programming and graphics for the menus, the splash page, the load/unload of each level...there can be a lot of work that doesn't go to gameplay. If you want it to look good, you have to work through a lot of iterations between programmer and artists. Of course, a polished game will have sound and music as well. High score pages. Storing character settings/keybindings. The list just goes on and on. As far as gameplay itself, one simple style of game will be pretty quick, but as other styles (races/guns/classes) are added, unexpected effects can take place and have to be worked out. The work required seems to grow exponentially to the complexity of the game.
12/17/2006 (9:54 am)
As a programmer, if you have the money, I'd suggest going with TGB first. You won't be able to reuse anything major from working with it, but you can get objects moving around the screen and learn the general way that Torque does things. With 3D, you need to tweak a whole lot of stuff just to get things started and you'll have to learn how to do all of it at once. If you're just started out with TGE, you'll have to do all those things at the same time you're just learning what each of the basic syntax errors means.Learn the Torquescript language and its errors in TGB first and then move on to TGE. Worst case, if you can only buy one and really want 3D, the good news is that it can be done with just TGE.
The major obstacle to finishing games is the sheer amount of work it takes to get something done. The basics are actually pretty simple and you have a high motivation to get them done. Then you need to do the programming and graphics for the menus, the splash page, the load/unload of each level...there can be a lot of work that doesn't go to gameplay. If you want it to look good, you have to work through a lot of iterations between programmer and artists. Of course, a polished game will have sound and music as well. High score pages. Storing character settings/keybindings. The list just goes on and on. As far as gameplay itself, one simple style of game will be pretty quick, but as other styles (races/guns/classes) are added, unexpected effects can take place and have to be worked out. The work required seems to grow exponentially to the complexity of the game.
Torque Owner Mark Junior