Ideas for games...by artists
by Rubes · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 12/07/2006 (10:49 am) · 98 replies
Here's something I always wanted to see addressed directly, as it has been touched on in some previous threads. Then again, maybe it has already been discussed directly before, and I'm a lazy slob for not catching it.
It seems the typical process for super-low-budget (ie, no budget) indie game development is: Single programmer, has what he thinks is a killer idea for the Next Big Game; struggles to get far because of the dreaded Art Bottleneck (for now I'll leave out the "struggles because he bites off far more than he can chew" pathway). The idea might work, but development stalls when he can't attract a good artist to participate in the project in exchange for only "a promise of future earnings." Understandable, although there are potentially ways to work through that.
On the other hand, I've heard of a few instances where games were initiated by the indie game artist, who then recruited programmers to help implement the idea. Not many, but then again I haven't paid close attention to that. But it would seem to be the more effective way to go, since that essentially removes one of the big economic hurdles to completing projects like these.
To me, as a programmer, this would also seem to be a potential way to advance a project of my own, if an artist with his or her own game idea would be willing to exchange work on both projects. That's actually how I got going on Vespers, although our arrangement has since morphed into something a bit different. Nevertheless...
I'm just really interested to see/hear what projects out there were really initiated and led by the artist, and which of these have followed through to completion.
And also, what artists out there have their own game ideas and are looking for programmers to help implement them?
It's also a good idea for artists wanting to learn a little programming with Torque, especially if they get involved with programmers who are willing to take the time to teach what they are doing. Not to mention programmers who are interested in mastering Torque, since it gives them a chance to learn by doing in a setting where they needn't worry about other game assets.
It seems the typical process for super-low-budget (ie, no budget) indie game development is: Single programmer, has what he thinks is a killer idea for the Next Big Game; struggles to get far because of the dreaded Art Bottleneck (for now I'll leave out the "struggles because he bites off far more than he can chew" pathway). The idea might work, but development stalls when he can't attract a good artist to participate in the project in exchange for only "a promise of future earnings." Understandable, although there are potentially ways to work through that.
On the other hand, I've heard of a few instances where games were initiated by the indie game artist, who then recruited programmers to help implement the idea. Not many, but then again I haven't paid close attention to that. But it would seem to be the more effective way to go, since that essentially removes one of the big economic hurdles to completing projects like these.
To me, as a programmer, this would also seem to be a potential way to advance a project of my own, if an artist with his or her own game idea would be willing to exchange work on both projects. That's actually how I got going on Vespers, although our arrangement has since morphed into something a bit different. Nevertheless...
I'm just really interested to see/hear what projects out there were really initiated and led by the artist, and which of these have followed through to completion.
And also, what artists out there have their own game ideas and are looking for programmers to help implement them?
It's also a good idea for artists wanting to learn a little programming with Torque, especially if they get involved with programmers who are willing to take the time to teach what they are doing. Not to mention programmers who are interested in mastering Torque, since it gives them a chance to learn by doing in a setting where they needn't worry about other game assets.
#82
But, on the current subject, if you've got no technical skill, what can you do? More importantly, is what you can do enough to be a useful member of a small team?
01/09/2007 (1:23 pm)
I see. Now I have more questions. This thread really isn't the place for my personal curiosities.But, on the current subject, if you've got no technical skill, what can you do? More importantly, is what you can do enough to be a useful member of a small team?
#83
@ James - Four and Twenty Virgins. I remember that night. Good times. :-)
01/09/2007 (1:30 pm)
The question is what can you do? Can you right ..er .. write? Can you draw? Can you look at something and say that'll work or that won't work and justify why? Can you manage people and organize time? Can you get coffee? There are lots of places to fit in on an Indy team. You just have to figure out where you'd be most useful or, if you don't get in the way, where you can learn to be more useful.@ James - Four and Twenty Virgins. I remember that night. Good times. :-)
#84
01/17/2007 (5:35 am)
I have a .max file but how do i put it an my tourqe game ingin?PLEASE HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
#86
@Mare - I need more writers who really care about the content! Who WILL take the time to build rich stories, relationships, teach the concepts in a meaningful and relevant context, and do more than just send the players on errands but really draw them into the game experience. Are you looking for a volunteer team to participate on? :) Would love to have more writing talent. We have more work to do!
@everyone - sorry, I really am busy and I got about 1/3 way through this thread and realised I wasn't going to have time to read all of it. Please forgive me for any oversight. I have to get back to email and writing design docs. More details need to be explained for my developers. :)
Blessings to you all. You have good hearts.
-Sparkling
http://www.visionsgame.com
01/26/2007 (11:00 am)
@Anton - I think I might be one of those mythical indie producers who has put together a volunteer team that you're talking about in these posts. I have about 4-5 programmers, 2 or 3 artists (still in need of animators though, talk about a mythical creature!!), a couple writers, a researcher, and several others who would like to help if they could find more time in their busy schedules. I CONSTANTLY wish for funding so that we could all be paid and work full time, and really finish this thing, but then what indie developer doesn't wish for that? I've been working with volunteers on the Visions game project for 2 years now, we have made the most progress in the last year and half, and we had to kind of start all over again when we switched to the TSE engine last May, but that has been a change for the better technology wise, and will by far be worth it in the long run. We have accumulated about 1.5 gig in art assets over the past 2 years, some created in-house (I'm a self-taught artist and writer, I am NOT a programmer, and I have designed the game concept for Visions, on about 160 pages in my design docs at the moment- and yes I know that design docs are never done!), some art acquired from donations, some from contributions of content packs, some from free downloads (though many of the free downloads I have obtained have not been useable for game content). I would guess we are about half way to a stage where we can begin alpha testing at this point. We're a long way from beta testing. So time will tell if we actually succeed. But we are doing it! And yes, organizing everyone and making sure every team member knows what they are supposed to be doing takes a whole lot of time - more than most people realise I think. Sometimes I spend an entire day in email and on Overlord just posting instructions and responding to questions. Leading a team of volunteers takes just the right blend of conviction, dedication and insanity, sometimes in fluxuating proportions. I think I do have a sufficient portion of insanity to qualify for the job. ;)@Mare - I need more writers who really care about the content! Who WILL take the time to build rich stories, relationships, teach the concepts in a meaningful and relevant context, and do more than just send the players on errands but really draw them into the game experience. Are you looking for a volunteer team to participate on? :) Would love to have more writing talent. We have more work to do!
@everyone - sorry, I really am busy and I got about 1/3 way through this thread and realised I wasn't going to have time to read all of it. Please forgive me for any oversight. I have to get back to email and writing design docs. More details need to be explained for my developers. :)
Blessings to you all. You have good hearts.
-Sparkling
http://www.visionsgame.com
#87
A basic but so far unmentioned problem with "Ideas for games, by artists" that I have been running into recently - I am a 2D artist but the MMO ideas I'm playing with would work much better with 3D art. :P Is it even possible to make fully animated 2D sprites to which several layers of mix-and-matched clothing articles can be applied? Maybe if each sprite was created by automatically flattening the layers into a sprite sheet when the player saved their avatar's appearance? A programming thing I have no idea how to do but someone probably does. Would creating a 2D system like that be way more work than accomplishing the same thing with 3D modeling?
01/26/2007 (11:15 am)
Sparkling - I am looking for a team to participate on, but I'm an atheist and most of my writing is steamy romance, usually gay or possibly involving hermaphrodites, so I don't really think I'd be a good fit for your stuff.A basic but so far unmentioned problem with "Ideas for games, by artists" that I have been running into recently - I am a 2D artist but the MMO ideas I'm playing with would work much better with 3D art. :P Is it even possible to make fully animated 2D sprites to which several layers of mix-and-matched clothing articles can be applied? Maybe if each sprite was created by automatically flattening the layers into a sprite sheet when the player saved their avatar's appearance? A programming thing I have no idea how to do but someone probably does. Would creating a 2D system like that be way more work than accomplishing the same thing with 3D modeling?
#88
That's why I think it's hard for some of us, even if we have an excellent idea, to implement it in any sort of useful or entertaining way. I'm more of a storyteller than anything. Straight storytelling is for the movies. Games must also be challenging. They must take enough time to make you feel like you're accompolishing something. They should be addictive, and take skill to master.
I can tell a successful story withouth anything happening in it, or with only 5 minutes elapsing before it's over. The same cannot be true of a game. That's why I think any old artist or writer or programmer can't just get a team together and make a game.
I'm filming a commercial next week, and my clients think that they know better than me what will sell their product. They don't.
I used to write comic book scripts. I recently looked over my first couple that I used to think were pretty good. They're terrible and talentless.
You MUST have a good understanding of what makes a game what it is and what makes a game successful before you can go and create one.
This is all opinion, of course.
01/27/2007 (12:54 pm)
You must first understand the market and all that is expected, even of small puzzle games before you really have any chance at making a sucessful game. (Sucessful, in this case, means enjoyable, not necessarily money making.)That's why I think it's hard for some of us, even if we have an excellent idea, to implement it in any sort of useful or entertaining way. I'm more of a storyteller than anything. Straight storytelling is for the movies. Games must also be challenging. They must take enough time to make you feel like you're accompolishing something. They should be addictive, and take skill to master.
I can tell a successful story withouth anything happening in it, or with only 5 minutes elapsing before it's over. The same cannot be true of a game. That's why I think any old artist or writer or programmer can't just get a team together and make a game.
I'm filming a commercial next week, and my clients think that they know better than me what will sell their product. They don't.
I used to write comic book scripts. I recently looked over my first couple that I used to think were pretty good. They're terrible and talentless.
You MUST have a good understanding of what makes a game what it is and what makes a game successful before you can go and create one.
This is all opinion, of course.
#90
Personally, I studied painting and graphic design. Have been a comic book (Conan & Tarzan) and fantasy book geek since I was 7yo. I just love video games, typically FPS and RPG games. I would never have dreamed of actually designing and creating one until about eight months ago. An old school buddy of mine who'd recently worked on a couple of animated feature films (also an artist) called me up to discuss what it would take to create one. I guess he figured that since I've worked on huge teams building web apps, I might have a technial insight. Ha! yea right... couldn't have been more wrong. :-)
Well, although I didn't now much about creating a game, I did share his passion for art, story telling and entertaining. I promised him that I'd do my best to find out, being the most technially oriented of the two. That if we found there was even a remote chance of being able to create one, we'd take it further. This led me to spend my weekends for the next couple of months at Barnes and Noble and every other evening online doing research. I presented my findings over dininer to my buddy and we both said... "Hey, we can do it. Let's get organized and take it to the next level". That level being Story, Concept Design and Concept Artwork. The product of that is our Design Doc.
Well, after much research and hard work, we're at the tail end of that stage now. Our team has grown to four people with others already expressing interested in joining. We've learned alot about the high-level technical particulars and we do recognize that this project will be impossible without programming talent. Although we haven't brought any one in that department on board yet, we have been consulting with developers on key matters all along the way.
My personal experience so far has been that a programmer, an artist, or writer could potentially be equally be suited to design and lead a game project. It's not so much a matter of what profession you are in but rather how well one can help maintain a unified vision, a high quality standard, an organized team, and can inspire others to do the impossible. That person should have the ability to quickly recognize strengths and weaknesses (including his/her own) and be able to leverage talent accordingly. If said person wants to communicate effectively with every one, intimate knowledge of the development pipeline is a must.
At our project's onset, we each laid out our best assets on the table. We had the experience and talent to get us through the first couple of stages and knew we lacked what would be needed for our next stage: Software Architect, Programmers, Production Assistant, Marketing & PR Specialist -- and more artists!
Yea, it does take more than just one or two individuals after all. A good story and concept is the glue that keeps our project from suffering the "everything-but-the-kitchen-sink" syndrome, (plus) Solid Game Play design is what reminds us of usability and immersion-ablity, (plus) Kickass Art Direction & Marketing is what will make them drool and help motivate them to even play it in the first place. There's lot's more, of course.... With this I'll end my sensless rambling.
02/26/2007 (12:24 pm)
This has been one of the most insightful forum threads I've read in a long time. I've particularly enjoyed discussions on who is better equipped to design and lead a game title, the importance of story and gameplay, and the sembiotic relationship between artist and programmer.Personally, I studied painting and graphic design. Have been a comic book (Conan & Tarzan) and fantasy book geek since I was 7yo. I just love video games, typically FPS and RPG games. I would never have dreamed of actually designing and creating one until about eight months ago. An old school buddy of mine who'd recently worked on a couple of animated feature films (also an artist) called me up to discuss what it would take to create one. I guess he figured that since I've worked on huge teams building web apps, I might have a technial insight. Ha! yea right... couldn't have been more wrong. :-)
Well, although I didn't now much about creating a game, I did share his passion for art, story telling and entertaining. I promised him that I'd do my best to find out, being the most technially oriented of the two. That if we found there was even a remote chance of being able to create one, we'd take it further. This led me to spend my weekends for the next couple of months at Barnes and Noble and every other evening online doing research. I presented my findings over dininer to my buddy and we both said... "Hey, we can do it. Let's get organized and take it to the next level". That level being Story, Concept Design and Concept Artwork. The product of that is our Design Doc.
Well, after much research and hard work, we're at the tail end of that stage now. Our team has grown to four people with others already expressing interested in joining. We've learned alot about the high-level technical particulars and we do recognize that this project will be impossible without programming talent. Although we haven't brought any one in that department on board yet, we have been consulting with developers on key matters all along the way.
My personal experience so far has been that a programmer, an artist, or writer could potentially be equally be suited to design and lead a game project. It's not so much a matter of what profession you are in but rather how well one can help maintain a unified vision, a high quality standard, an organized team, and can inspire others to do the impossible. That person should have the ability to quickly recognize strengths and weaknesses (including his/her own) and be able to leverage talent accordingly. If said person wants to communicate effectively with every one, intimate knowledge of the development pipeline is a must.
At our project's onset, we each laid out our best assets on the table. We had the experience and talent to get us through the first couple of stages and knew we lacked what would be needed for our next stage: Software Architect, Programmers, Production Assistant, Marketing & PR Specialist -- and more artists!
Yea, it does take more than just one or two individuals after all. A good story and concept is the glue that keeps our project from suffering the "everything-but-the-kitchen-sink" syndrome, (plus) Solid Game Play design is what reminds us of usability and immersion-ablity, (plus) Kickass Art Direction & Marketing is what will make them drool and help motivate them to even play it in the first place. There's lot's more, of course.... With this I'll end my sensless rambling.
#91
Nice discussion. Like Joe said, nothing is ever set in stone when it comes to game development, sometimes ideas broaden outside their britches when it comes to implementing them in the game! In fact, I'd say the gameplay architecture, being the heart of any game, get's the final say on things over even the developers. If you think about it, if you were to, for instance, start off a game as a racing game, you immediatly assume certain aspects of the game mechanics in common with other racing games. Now, say an idea is to have a garage or pit area that let's players fine tune their car - simulation-style, using highly detailed tools and controls for everything, and also for it to load on-the-fly (during a pit, for speed, for example). The chances of the idea above being implemented exactly to any pre-drawn designs - hardly! In fact, you may end up with a simple upgrade system like ones used in other racing games by the time your game is finished. Then again, you may just be able to pull it off with a well planned range of implementation and some good old fashioned trial and error, but again, it'll still require some extensive tweaking from paper to proccessor.
Story. I think story would only work best if it was implemented in a more personal manifestation of the player. The difference being either encased in the story or making the story as you go. I have lots of ideas on this approach, generally you start with a beginning, a middle, an end, then fill it in with different ways to move through the story/adventure. My first implementation of this idea will start off with 80 unique, multi-pathing and intersecting storylines! Now you've seen another idea that may never see the light of day - but I'm plottin'!
- Ronixus
02/28/2007 (12:37 pm)
Designer at heart, I'm also an artist as well as into doing some coding (Joe hit it on the head with the tweaking). I've been on and off trying to get things in order to take off and develop some games I've been designing for over the past 10 years. I just might be on to something finally.Nice discussion. Like Joe said, nothing is ever set in stone when it comes to game development, sometimes ideas broaden outside their britches when it comes to implementing them in the game! In fact, I'd say the gameplay architecture, being the heart of any game, get's the final say on things over even the developers. If you think about it, if you were to, for instance, start off a game as a racing game, you immediatly assume certain aspects of the game mechanics in common with other racing games. Now, say an idea is to have a garage or pit area that let's players fine tune their car - simulation-style, using highly detailed tools and controls for everything, and also for it to load on-the-fly (during a pit, for speed, for example). The chances of the idea above being implemented exactly to any pre-drawn designs - hardly! In fact, you may end up with a simple upgrade system like ones used in other racing games by the time your game is finished. Then again, you may just be able to pull it off with a well planned range of implementation and some good old fashioned trial and error, but again, it'll still require some extensive tweaking from paper to proccessor.
Story. I think story would only work best if it was implemented in a more personal manifestation of the player. The difference being either encased in the story or making the story as you go. I have lots of ideas on this approach, generally you start with a beginning, a middle, an end, then fill it in with different ways to move through the story/adventure. My first implementation of this idea will start off with 80 unique, multi-pathing and intersecting storylines! Now you've seen another idea that may never see the light of day - but I'm plottin'!
- Ronixus
#92
www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=445864
05/01/2007 (7:31 pm)
I wanted to comment that, having come up with a game design project to which my art, writing, and design skills are suited, I am having no luck finding a lead programmer/co-designer for it. :(www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?topic_id=445864
#93
I was thinking of taking the Advance Networking class this summer and I could have access to my college (CIS/DST/Arts) labs. We have 12 computers with Maya 7 that could also be installed on some Apples that are not being used. There are some scanners and High Photo color printers as well; the room next door has some clay and other art stuff that we could make models out of.
I want to make a game this summer, BAD !
05/02/2007 (12:17 pm)
I do not know if you live near GG, but I do about 50 miles; if you don't maybe online is the only way. I am looking for someone to do a project over the summer. I do not know if I have what you need, but I have taken Art, Photo, Video Production (Director-editor-camera). I have taken classes related to A+ certification such as Operating systems- Advance Op- Microcomputer configuration - Visual Basic and others; I can also do sketching and storyboards.I was thinking of taking the Advance Networking class this summer and I could have access to my college (CIS/DST/Arts) labs. We have 12 computers with Maya 7 that could also be installed on some Apples that are not being used. There are some scanners and High Photo color printers as well; the room next door has some clay and other art stuff that we could make models out of.
I want to make a game this summer, BAD !
#94
05/02/2007 (5:34 pm)
Joseph, were you talking to me personally? My game's 2D anime style graphics, so no Maya or models needed. I live in Pennsylvania, but I usually do indie stuff purely online. Your art skills sound impressive but you might be better off working on a 3D project, maybe one that already has a lead programmer - I'm mainly looking for an experienced lead programmer to co-design my game and manage all the technical aspects of it. 
#95
I know how to program a bit well but art is where I crash.
I just want to make one game to make enough money to hire a programmer, 2 artists, a character modeler, and buy some better Torque Tools (I call them TTs).
I may just be 12 but in about 3 years when I finish my game I can get my own team.
05/05/2007 (12:10 am)
This fits my description perfectly.I know how to program a bit well but art is where I crash.
I just want to make one game to make enough money to hire a programmer, 2 artists, a character modeler, and buy some better Torque Tools (I call them TTs).
I may just be 12 but in about 3 years when I finish my game I can get my own team.
#96
Im not gong to crap on ill give hard facts
Im looking 4 programers.
my skills.9 years flash animation ,master of fine arts,bachelour of art ,fulltime artist 4 13yrs.
1.I have a platform game that is made in flash I can email it to anyone interested in the syle .
2.I want us 2 make it in torque x
3.Its a contempary ground breaking idear. pirate game called Captain Savy.
4.its a 2d platform game.
5.game influences, metal slug,alien homid,gholls and ghosts,
6.i want to release it on nettendo d.s ,ps2,x box live,
7.The designs r good 2 go i am pumping the graphics into torque x,platform starter kit as we speak.
8.I have a pro working on the sound effects.
9.the platformer kit has its limitations and am in need of some one who understands torque x .
10.I need a programer that is willing 2 work with an artist to work on a game idear that kills.
p.s Once u see the in game i have already built u will want in.
i have read the bogining of your forum and just want 2 know if u like this can email u the game if u have a flash player
my email is mark_hanham@hotmail.com
email me at mark_hanham@hotmail.com
08/31/2007 (6:58 am)
I say game is good 2 go cause it is in the art side of things.Im not gong to crap on ill give hard facts
Im looking 4 programers.
my skills.9 years flash animation ,master of fine arts,bachelour of art ,fulltime artist 4 13yrs.
1.I have a platform game that is made in flash I can email it to anyone interested in the syle .
2.I want us 2 make it in torque x
3.Its a contempary ground breaking idear. pirate game called Captain Savy.
4.its a 2d platform game.
5.game influences, metal slug,alien homid,gholls and ghosts,
6.i want to release it on nettendo d.s ,ps2,x box live,
7.The designs r good 2 go i am pumping the graphics into torque x,platform starter kit as we speak.
8.I have a pro working on the sound effects.
9.the platformer kit has its limitations and am in need of some one who understands torque x .
10.I need a programer that is willing 2 work with an artist to work on a game idear that kills.
p.s Once u see the in game i have already built u will want in.
i have read the bogining of your forum and just want 2 know if u like this can email u the game if u have a flash player
my email is mark_hanham@hotmail.com
email me at mark_hanham@hotmail.com
#97
08/31/2007 (7:04 am)
Please stop spamming the forum with this message. I think it is the fourth time I have read the exact same thing. Plus, it makes my eyes bleed to read chat-speak. It works well in a quick chat or a text message on a phone, but it makes me extremely skeptical when propositioned (repeatedly) for a position on a team.
#98
If one can make a game like this, I will greatly pay to play.
PS. Pardon my poor english.
12/27/2007 (2:14 am)
I like to play game that is engaging but not boring. Through the cause of playing come plots that push my emotional button. At the end of that session, it leads me to think and wanted to write down on my diary what I have achieved in this session. A game with well balance in both is good.If one can make a game like this, I will greatly pay to play.
PS. Pardon my poor english.
Mare Kuntz
So yes I agree with Kristian that a non-programmer will have difficulty being a lead designer - but so will a non-musician, a non-artist, a non-writer, a person with no money, a person with no charisma and eloquence, a person who is disorganized, etc. Beyond that assistant designer and lead writer are the two most difficult positions to get if you have no other skills because often the designer wants to be the lead writer (even when they're a lousy writer :P ) and many projects don't have any assistant designers, or the lead artist is the assistant designer.