Ideas for games...by artists
by Rubes · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 12/07/2006 (10:49 am) · 98 replies
Here's something I always wanted to see addressed directly, as it has been touched on in some previous threads. Then again, maybe it has already been discussed directly before, and I'm a lazy slob for not catching it.
It seems the typical process for super-low-budget (ie, no budget) indie game development is: Single programmer, has what he thinks is a killer idea for the Next Big Game; struggles to get far because of the dreaded Art Bottleneck (for now I'll leave out the "struggles because he bites off far more than he can chew" pathway). The idea might work, but development stalls when he can't attract a good artist to participate in the project in exchange for only "a promise of future earnings." Understandable, although there are potentially ways to work through that.
On the other hand, I've heard of a few instances where games were initiated by the indie game artist, who then recruited programmers to help implement the idea. Not many, but then again I haven't paid close attention to that. But it would seem to be the more effective way to go, since that essentially removes one of the big economic hurdles to completing projects like these.
To me, as a programmer, this would also seem to be a potential way to advance a project of my own, if an artist with his or her own game idea would be willing to exchange work on both projects. That's actually how I got going on Vespers, although our arrangement has since morphed into something a bit different. Nevertheless...
I'm just really interested to see/hear what projects out there were really initiated and led by the artist, and which of these have followed through to completion.
And also, what artists out there have their own game ideas and are looking for programmers to help implement them?
It's also a good idea for artists wanting to learn a little programming with Torque, especially if they get involved with programmers who are willing to take the time to teach what they are doing. Not to mention programmers who are interested in mastering Torque, since it gives them a chance to learn by doing in a setting where they needn't worry about other game assets.
It seems the typical process for super-low-budget (ie, no budget) indie game development is: Single programmer, has what he thinks is a killer idea for the Next Big Game; struggles to get far because of the dreaded Art Bottleneck (for now I'll leave out the "struggles because he bites off far more than he can chew" pathway). The idea might work, but development stalls when he can't attract a good artist to participate in the project in exchange for only "a promise of future earnings." Understandable, although there are potentially ways to work through that.
On the other hand, I've heard of a few instances where games were initiated by the indie game artist, who then recruited programmers to help implement the idea. Not many, but then again I haven't paid close attention to that. But it would seem to be the more effective way to go, since that essentially removes one of the big economic hurdles to completing projects like these.
To me, as a programmer, this would also seem to be a potential way to advance a project of my own, if an artist with his or her own game idea would be willing to exchange work on both projects. That's actually how I got going on Vespers, although our arrangement has since morphed into something a bit different. Nevertheless...
I'm just really interested to see/hear what projects out there were really initiated and led by the artist, and which of these have followed through to completion.
And also, what artists out there have their own game ideas and are looking for programmers to help implement them?
It's also a good idea for artists wanting to learn a little programming with Torque, especially if they get involved with programmers who are willing to take the time to teach what they are doing. Not to mention programmers who are interested in mastering Torque, since it gives them a chance to learn by doing in a setting where they needn't worry about other game assets.
#42
@ Vit - Nicely said. I'm the same way. I always feel I write rubbish :)
@ Mare - disturbing is putting it mildly. A shame really. The difference between a game builder and a game designer perhaps?
On that note - beware! Here comes a long rambling.
First off, I agree with your comments for the most part regarding games and game story. Mare, your illustration I think sums up some of the AAA games out there and it still amazes me when I pick up a game with such crappy story, dialogue and voice acting. It seems that developers are catering to 12 to 16 year olds. But there are lots of exceptions.
Should games be more than gameplay? I don't think so. Gameplay is the heart of the game, the "raison d'etre" if you will.
I'll keep this as brief as I can :)
We do need and want good writers in industry. No arguements there. But don't forget that all the traditional media such as film, TV, books, theatre and even newspapers all tell stories to varying levels and depth. They focus on their strengths and can't and cannot try to emulate the other (unless for dramatic effect). They fail when they do (usually).
What has always fascinated me with "good" games, is how they have impacted me emotionally. Because games are I think very personal. I still remember the cold sweat dripping down my sides when I first heard the before seeing the T-Rex charge out of the darkness in Tomb Raider. The shock when on being released from my premature burial in The Dark Eye only to have... the lights put out again. The guilt when I lost companions (NPCs) in Halflife2 and the wonder of Lost Coast's environment.
There is more to do, I agree. It can't be just about fancy graphics, the scanty armour on a heroine or how well people or buildings break apart when you hit them (I still find it disturbing how characters drop or flop in halflife2 when you kill them). It's about an emotional connection between the player and the game designers construct.
Okay, I'll shuddap now as I'm more interested in what other people have to say anyway :)
If only Chris Crawford were here, I wonder what he'd say :)
*Crap! half my post was lost because of a strange character in the post... just as well
01/04/2007 (4:41 am)
@ Joe - Wonderful insight :)@ Vit - Nicely said. I'm the same way. I always feel I write rubbish :)
@ Mare - disturbing is putting it mildly. A shame really. The difference between a game builder and a game designer perhaps?
On that note - beware! Here comes a long rambling.
First off, I agree with your comments for the most part regarding games and game story. Mare, your illustration I think sums up some of the AAA games out there and it still amazes me when I pick up a game with such crappy story, dialogue and voice acting. It seems that developers are catering to 12 to 16 year olds. But there are lots of exceptions.
Should games be more than gameplay? I don't think so. Gameplay is the heart of the game, the "raison d'etre" if you will.
I'll keep this as brief as I can :)
We do need and want good writers in industry. No arguements there. But don't forget that all the traditional media such as film, TV, books, theatre and even newspapers all tell stories to varying levels and depth. They focus on their strengths and can't and cannot try to emulate the other (unless for dramatic effect). They fail when they do (usually).
What has always fascinated me with "good" games, is how they have impacted me emotionally. Because games are I think very personal. I still remember the cold sweat dripping down my sides when I first heard the before seeing the T-Rex charge out of the darkness in Tomb Raider. The shock when on being released from my premature burial in The Dark Eye only to have... the lights put out again. The guilt when I lost companions (NPCs) in Halflife2 and the wonder of Lost Coast's environment.
There is more to do, I agree. It can't be just about fancy graphics, the scanty armour on a heroine or how well people or buildings break apart when you hit them (I still find it disturbing how characters drop or flop in halflife2 when you kill them). It's about an emotional connection between the player and the game designers construct.
Okay, I'll shuddap now as I'm more interested in what other people have to say anyway :)
If only Chris Crawford were here, I wonder what he'd say :)
*Crap! half my post was lost because of a strange character in the post... just as well
#43
Hey. You sound like someone who I want to write for a game I make. You said it just right. I like a lot of different types of games, but my favorite are the games that make me feel like I'm taking part in a story and experiencing a journey with characters. My brother and I are working to design a game we want to make in the next few years that is a kind of Deus Ex like game. Near future sci-fi first person action adventure rpg. We started working out the game and story and history and characters and we realise that it's going to be years before we finish. We aren't remotely interested in making anything less than you'd experience in a sci-fi book. We just want you to feel like you are living the book with this game. That's how I want to make games... living the book.
01/04/2007 (5:06 am)
@Mare KuntzHey. You sound like someone who I want to write for a game I make. You said it just right. I like a lot of different types of games, but my favorite are the games that make me feel like I'm taking part in a story and experiencing a journey with characters. My brother and I are working to design a game we want to make in the next few years that is a kind of Deus Ex like game. Near future sci-fi first person action adventure rpg. We started working out the game and story and history and characters and we realise that it's going to be years before we finish. We aren't remotely interested in making anything less than you'd experience in a sci-fi book. We just want you to feel like you are living the book with this game. That's how I want to make games... living the book.
#44
I really like the path this thread has followed over time, from artists being designers and project leads, to the role of producers, and to the role of writers and story. Some of it's about team building, some of it's about gameplay. It's interesting to see how these are all interrelated.
I agree entirely with these points. I do think it depends largely on how important the story is to a particular game, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that a writer is as important to a game's story as the artist is to a game's art.
My approach, in essence, was to find the writer and the story first, and to go from there. Vespers started as an interactive fiction texdt game with great writing, strong characters, and an engaging story. Making it into a 3D game is challenging, but I can't help but think that this project is far better off because we started with a good story that had already been crafted into a game. So much of the game's mechanics and structure are already settled, and it gives us an incredibly clear path and set of goals. Plus, it's a really cool story. ;)
01/04/2007 (7:14 am)
@James: If Chris Crawford were here, he'd probably be mocking us. ;)I really like the path this thread has followed over time, from artists being designers and project leads, to the role of producers, and to the role of writers and story. Some of it's about team building, some of it's about gameplay. It's interesting to see how these are all interrelated.
Quote:
Doesn't it make sense that a writer, a story person, someone with the knowledge and experience to come up with original storyline and characters, would create the story for a game?
Games should be more than gameplay, in my personal opinion. And while artists and programmers are the lifeblood of game creation, it makes more sense to me that there be a writer to take care of story and plot, or at least to flesh out ideas.
I agree entirely with these points. I do think it depends largely on how important the story is to a particular game, but I don't think it's a stretch to say that a writer is as important to a game's story as the artist is to a game's art.
My approach, in essence, was to find the writer and the story first, and to go from there. Vespers started as an interactive fiction texdt game with great writing, strong characters, and an engaging story. Making it into a 3D game is challenging, but I can't help but think that this project is far better off because we started with a good story that had already been crafted into a game. So much of the game's mechanics and structure are already settled, and it gives us an incredibly clear path and set of goals. Plus, it's a really cool story. ;)
#45
home.comcast.net/~wickeddelight/
@Kristian - I don't agree that story and gameplay are necessarily in conflict. Making dialogue choices can be both story and gameplay simultaneously. The visual environment and specific puzzles in an adventure or mystery game do visual storytelling while the player plays through them. A game like Sanitarium, for example, is an almost seamless blend of story and gameplay. Also, the game as a whole is supposed to provide an 'entertainment experience' - people enjoy listening to characters talk, and watching short scenes give them a chance to rest from the energetic playing they've been doing; people get tired of doing the same thing constantly, variation is essential to keeping a player happy through a story-based game which takes many hours to play. Arcade games with little or no story have their place too (and can often be used to good effect inside an RPG or MMOROG) but some players crave to experience stories and games designed for that audience story and gameplay must work together such that the gameplay advances the story and the story motivates and gives meaning to the gameplay.
01/04/2007 (10:40 am)
@Anton - Thank you, and you also put it excellently, I agree that an ideal game would be like living a book! Who knows whether I would be a good choice for writing for your particular game though, we might very well have different taste in books. I like science fiction and fantasy romance mainly, the kind with lots of social humor and a happily ever after ending, and minimal violence. I prefer game designs where combat is optional. But you're welcome to read some of my writing samples and see if you like what you see (writing is at the bottom of the page).home.comcast.net/~wickeddelight/
@Kristian - I don't agree that story and gameplay are necessarily in conflict. Making dialogue choices can be both story and gameplay simultaneously. The visual environment and specific puzzles in an adventure or mystery game do visual storytelling while the player plays through them. A game like Sanitarium, for example, is an almost seamless blend of story and gameplay. Also, the game as a whole is supposed to provide an 'entertainment experience' - people enjoy listening to characters talk, and watching short scenes give them a chance to rest from the energetic playing they've been doing; people get tired of doing the same thing constantly, variation is essential to keeping a player happy through a story-based game which takes many hours to play. Arcade games with little or no story have their place too (and can often be used to good effect inside an RPG or MMOROG) but some players crave to experience stories and games designed for that audience story and gameplay must work together such that the gameplay advances the story and the story motivates and gives meaning to the gameplay.
#46
Hmmm.. I'm sorry. I think I expressed myself wrong.
Actually I am a big fan of classic Adventures and RPG games like the LucasArt games and Final Fantasy games especially Final Fantasy VII. They have great stories and emotional moments.
There is one scene in FF7 that everyone who played the game will remember for quite a time.
It is the dramatic moment when Sephiroth kills Aeris. When i played the game first time I was stunned.
For me this was one of the most dramatic moments ever in a game. I actually had to put the controller beside,
and wipe away the tears coming from my eyes. Or does anyone remember the Three-headed Monkey from Monkey Island?
This moments were only possible because the writer and the game designer made it possible,
by limiting me in my freedom and making a linear but great story.
Recently I added ICO and Shadow of Colossus to the list of my favorite game stories.
They have a quite different approach not telling you a big and long epical story,
but they moved me on an more emotional base.
There are two great recordings for writers and of course game designers at following link.
They are free GDC Radio lectures called:
"Interactive Narratives Revisited: Ten Years of Research" by Ernest Adams.
http://www.gdcradio.net/free_gdc_recordings/
"A Practical Guide to the Hero's Journey" by Bob Bates.
http://www.gdcradio.net/
01/04/2007 (2:36 pm)
@ MareHmmm.. I'm sorry. I think I expressed myself wrong.
Actually I am a big fan of classic Adventures and RPG games like the LucasArt games and Final Fantasy games especially Final Fantasy VII. They have great stories and emotional moments.
There is one scene in FF7 that everyone who played the game will remember for quite a time.
It is the dramatic moment when Sephiroth kills Aeris. When i played the game first time I was stunned.
For me this was one of the most dramatic moments ever in a game. I actually had to put the controller beside,
and wipe away the tears coming from my eyes. Or does anyone remember the Three-headed Monkey from Monkey Island?
This moments were only possible because the writer and the game designer made it possible,
by limiting me in my freedom and making a linear but great story.
Recently I added ICO and Shadow of Colossus to the list of my favorite game stories.
They have a quite different approach not telling you a big and long epical story,
but they moved me on an more emotional base.
There are two great recordings for writers and of course game designers at following link.
They are free GDC Radio lectures called:
"Interactive Narratives Revisited: Ten Years of Research" by Ernest Adams.
http://www.gdcradio.net/free_gdc_recordings/
"A Practical Guide to the Hero's Journey" by Bob Bates.
http://www.gdcradio.net/
#47
A game is nothing without gameplay. Absolutely nothing. A game can exist without story. Tetris has no story, but VERY addictive gameplay with long lasting appeal. That said, why not try to make games better? Why not try to break the average and move on?
I've seen story done wrong. I played one of the LOTR games based on the movies a couple years back (I can't remember which one it was). It was full of longwinded cutscenes that you couldn't skip. And it was a story you already knew if you had seen the movies. It was frustrating and it took away from the gameplay and I found myself losing interest almost immediately.
This might sound abstract but, in a sense, isn't gameplay a part of the story? Story is the actions and reactions of your characters to one another or outside influences based upon past experiences and knowledge. (Basically...) Gameplay is your (the character's) actions and reactions to things taking place in each level.
You can have gameplay without further story, further explanation of why things are how they are. Gameplay is what makes a game a game. But if a writer is part of the team to pull story into gameplay, so that things are revealed to you as the level progresses, not just in cutscenes, then doesn't that make a game stronger and more playable?
I agree that the writer must also be a designer, because a game is a visual art.
And maybe that's why indie games seem to be the way they are. You have a small team, paid little or not at all. You need to focus on the fundamentals. But if you could focus on the entirety, on everything, as much as the art seems to be focused on, wouldn't that make a stronger game?
One of the things the Silent Hill series is always getting good reviews for is the sound and score. It's a large part of why it's so creepy.
If we could focus on sound and story and 'lesser' things like that, games would have a much more powerful impact.
Ok. So I think I got off topic. Sorry about that. And sorry it's so abstract. I'm muddled today.
01/04/2007 (4:36 pm)
I agree with you, Mare. As games become more beautiful, more able to become whatever we want them to be (ANYTHING we can imagine), we have a better chance of making something more than addictive of them.A game is nothing without gameplay. Absolutely nothing. A game can exist without story. Tetris has no story, but VERY addictive gameplay with long lasting appeal. That said, why not try to make games better? Why not try to break the average and move on?
I've seen story done wrong. I played one of the LOTR games based on the movies a couple years back (I can't remember which one it was). It was full of longwinded cutscenes that you couldn't skip. And it was a story you already knew if you had seen the movies. It was frustrating and it took away from the gameplay and I found myself losing interest almost immediately.
This might sound abstract but, in a sense, isn't gameplay a part of the story? Story is the actions and reactions of your characters to one another or outside influences based upon past experiences and knowledge. (Basically...) Gameplay is your (the character's) actions and reactions to things taking place in each level.
You can have gameplay without further story, further explanation of why things are how they are. Gameplay is what makes a game a game. But if a writer is part of the team to pull story into gameplay, so that things are revealed to you as the level progresses, not just in cutscenes, then doesn't that make a game stronger and more playable?
I agree that the writer must also be a designer, because a game is a visual art.
And maybe that's why indie games seem to be the way they are. You have a small team, paid little or not at all. You need to focus on the fundamentals. But if you could focus on the entirety, on everything, as much as the art seems to be focused on, wouldn't that make a stronger game?
One of the things the Silent Hill series is always getting good reviews for is the sound and score. It's a large part of why it's so creepy.
If we could focus on sound and story and 'lesser' things like that, games would have a much more powerful impact.
Ok. So I think I got off topic. Sorry about that. And sorry it's so abstract. I'm muddled today.
#48
A game is nothing without gameplay. Absolutely nothing. A game can exist without story. Tetris has no story, but VERY addictive gameplay with long lasting appeal. That said, why not try to make games better? Why not try to break the average and move on?
I've seen story done wrong. I played one of the LOTR games based on the movies a couple years back (I can't remember which one it was). It was full of longwinded cutscenes that you couldn't skip. And it was a story you already knew if you had seen the movies. It was frustrating and it took away from the gameplay and I found myself losing interest almost immediately.
This might sound abstract but, in a sense, isn't gameplay a part of the story? Story is the actions and reactions of your characters to one another or outside influences based upon past experiences and knowledge. (Basically...) Gameplay is your (the character's) actions and reactions to things taking place in each level.
You can have gameplay without further story, further explanation of why things are how they are. Gameplay is what makes a game a game. But if a writer is part of the team to pull story into gameplay, so that things are revealed to you as the level progresses, not just in cutscenes, then doesn't that make a game stronger and more playable?
I agree that the writer must also be a designer, because a game is a visual art.
And maybe that's why indie games seem to be the way they are. You have a small team, paid little or not at all. You need to focus on the fundamentals. But if you could focus on the entirety, on everything, as much as the art seems to be focused on, wouldn't that make a stronger game?
One of the things the Silent Hill series is always getting good reviews for is the sound and score. It's a large part of why it's so creepy.
If we could focus on sound and story and 'lesser' things like that, games would have a much more powerful impact.
Ok. So I think I got off topic. Sorry about that. And sorry it's so abstract. I'm muddled today.
01/04/2007 (4:48 pm)
I agree with you, Mare. As games become more beautiful, more able to become whatever we want them to be (ANYTHING we can imagine), we have a better chance of making something more than addictive of them.A game is nothing without gameplay. Absolutely nothing. A game can exist without story. Tetris has no story, but VERY addictive gameplay with long lasting appeal. That said, why not try to make games better? Why not try to break the average and move on?
I've seen story done wrong. I played one of the LOTR games based on the movies a couple years back (I can't remember which one it was). It was full of longwinded cutscenes that you couldn't skip. And it was a story you already knew if you had seen the movies. It was frustrating and it took away from the gameplay and I found myself losing interest almost immediately.
This might sound abstract but, in a sense, isn't gameplay a part of the story? Story is the actions and reactions of your characters to one another or outside influences based upon past experiences and knowledge. (Basically...) Gameplay is your (the character's) actions and reactions to things taking place in each level.
You can have gameplay without further story, further explanation of why things are how they are. Gameplay is what makes a game a game. But if a writer is part of the team to pull story into gameplay, so that things are revealed to you as the level progresses, not just in cutscenes, then doesn't that make a game stronger and more playable?
I agree that the writer must also be a designer, because a game is a visual art.
And maybe that's why indie games seem to be the way they are. You have a small team, paid little or not at all. You need to focus on the fundamentals. But if you could focus on the entirety, on everything, as much as the art seems to be focused on, wouldn't that make a stronger game?
One of the things the Silent Hill series is always getting good reviews for is the sound and score. It's a large part of why it's so creepy.
If we could focus on sound and story and 'lesser' things like that, games would have a much more powerful impact.
Ok. So I think I got off topic. Sorry about that. And sorry it's so abstract. I'm muddled today.
#49
I AM wondering about your statement "the writer must also be a designer, because a game is a visual art." While I agree with the first part and the second the "because" throws me. Most writers only work on story not visuals, right? I actually think that a designer should be a writer with some programming and art knowledge. The more the better. I'm sure an artist can come up with a good story or game idea but he probably needs a programmer to let him know how difficult it would be to implement the visuals running through his head. Things like "I want each cut of the sword to leave a scar." Visually it'll look amazing but programmatically? Oh boy. And you can probably think of examples of the reverse as well. But I agree that the writer is the best candidate. As people have said, good story and characters pull in the players. (I miss hanging out with Deekin in Neverwinter Nights.) But I believe those other elements are needed for a good game designer otherwise you just have a good writer. I've seen many posts about game ideas and when I read them they just seem like story ideas to me. And I'm not knocking them because I've seen lots of games out there that are the same: same features, new story. And I've enjoyed some of them BUT I think designer should be able to mold the gameplay or even the engine around the story to create some uniquely different each time. "It's ok to die because the character has the mystical Katt Amulet which allows him to die 9 times. In fact at points D and F he's HAS to die in order to complete the objectives and, if he has spare lives in the final battle, then he can take all sorts of outrageous chances."
When you call story or sound "lesser" things, you're saying they're perceived as lesser when they're not, right? Sound is quite often overlooked, especially scores. Think of scores from movies that made a big impact on you. What would the movie be like with a different score. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Conan. Who doesn't know the music from Jaws? Sound has as big an impact in games not only in score but sound effects but in the realm of score, how many of you noticed when a game changes the music when action started or became eerie when you went someplace dark. There's some good design for you espcially if they managed to sync up the music so it wasn't an "abrupt" change.
I think I'm rambling at this point. Next!
01/04/2007 (9:31 pm)
@Vitreous Actually, you sort of brought the topic back to artist and games, not that the general idea of what makes a game effective isn't good. I'd love to talk about it more. In fact I will!I AM wondering about your statement "the writer must also be a designer, because a game is a visual art." While I agree with the first part and the second the "because" throws me. Most writers only work on story not visuals, right? I actually think that a designer should be a writer with some programming and art knowledge. The more the better. I'm sure an artist can come up with a good story or game idea but he probably needs a programmer to let him know how difficult it would be to implement the visuals running through his head. Things like "I want each cut of the sword to leave a scar." Visually it'll look amazing but programmatically? Oh boy. And you can probably think of examples of the reverse as well. But I agree that the writer is the best candidate. As people have said, good story and characters pull in the players. (I miss hanging out with Deekin in Neverwinter Nights.) But I believe those other elements are needed for a good game designer otherwise you just have a good writer. I've seen many posts about game ideas and when I read them they just seem like story ideas to me. And I'm not knocking them because I've seen lots of games out there that are the same: same features, new story. And I've enjoyed some of them BUT I think designer should be able to mold the gameplay or even the engine around the story to create some uniquely different each time. "It's ok to die because the character has the mystical Katt Amulet which allows him to die 9 times. In fact at points D and F he's HAS to die in order to complete the objectives and, if he has spare lives in the final battle, then he can take all sorts of outrageous chances."
When you call story or sound "lesser" things, you're saying they're perceived as lesser when they're not, right? Sound is quite often overlooked, especially scores. Think of scores from movies that made a big impact on you. What would the movie be like with a different score. Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Conan. Who doesn't know the music from Jaws? Sound has as big an impact in games not only in score but sound effects but in the realm of score, how many of you noticed when a game changes the music when action started or became eerie when you went someplace dark. There's some good design for you espcially if they managed to sync up the music so it wasn't an "abrupt" change.
I think I'm rambling at this point. Next!
#50
Anyhow, Yeah. When I said lesser, I meant seemingly lesser. They're thought of least. If anything is to suffer because of budget, it's sound or story. The people want their explosions more than they want their explanations.
Shiraz, your example is excellent. Story can be used to make gameplay more original and fun. Your example reminded me of a game that fits the conversation well. I personally loved playing Prince Of Persia because of the abilities I'd never seen in another game before, the great sound and score, and the seamless, flawless cutscenes. This made the game stronger, and it felt like you were doing more than cutting up henchmen.
Going back to the original question at hand. I'm no expert, but it seems that, logically, if a programmer were to come up with a game idea, it would be more realistic and attainable, simply because they fully understand the difficulties in creating gameplay. However, realistic and attainable don't really end up anywhere exciting or new.
The artist is perhaps more likely to come up with ideas that are less attainable and more incredible. Not because they are necessarily less grounded or anything like that, but because it's the nature of their work. The artist is more likely to end up impressive, but incomplete.
The conclusion of the matter being, mainly, that you need a good team of people who have a general knowledge of the entire project, technically and otherwise. A group of people who can appreciate if something needs to be changed in order to work.
Sheesh. Another long one. I should figure out how to say more in less words. Does anyone else find that they think clearest at midnight?
01/04/2007 (11:49 pm)
If the "because" sways you, forget it ever happened. Like I said, the music in my head and the dance of fingers on keyboard weren't quite syncronized. Didn't I say that?Anyhow, Yeah. When I said lesser, I meant seemingly lesser. They're thought of least. If anything is to suffer because of budget, it's sound or story. The people want their explosions more than they want their explanations.
Shiraz, your example is excellent. Story can be used to make gameplay more original and fun. Your example reminded me of a game that fits the conversation well. I personally loved playing Prince Of Persia because of the abilities I'd never seen in another game before, the great sound and score, and the seamless, flawless cutscenes. This made the game stronger, and it felt like you were doing more than cutting up henchmen.
Going back to the original question at hand. I'm no expert, but it seems that, logically, if a programmer were to come up with a game idea, it would be more realistic and attainable, simply because they fully understand the difficulties in creating gameplay. However, realistic and attainable don't really end up anywhere exciting or new.
The artist is perhaps more likely to come up with ideas that are less attainable and more incredible. Not because they are necessarily less grounded or anything like that, but because it's the nature of their work. The artist is more likely to end up impressive, but incomplete.
The conclusion of the matter being, mainly, that you need a good team of people who have a general knowledge of the entire project, technically and otherwise. A group of people who can appreciate if something needs to be changed in order to work.
Sheesh. Another long one. I should figure out how to say more in less words. Does anyone else find that they think clearest at midnight?
#51
A programmer has a more realistic and attainable game ideas!?
An Artist ideas are less attainable and more incredible!?
That's like saying the only person who can tell a good story is a writer!
:)
As a Designer and Artist, I have always challenged my programmers with "Can we do this?". Invariably, they say "no" and add some reason why it can't happen. 2 hours later, they come back and say "I thought about it and I think we can do this..." or even "Yes, we can do that". Cool.
But what I want to pull your attention to is "Can we do this?". Regardless of the project, it's a team effort and everyone has to challenge each other to do more than the usual. The example from Shiraz of each cut of the sword leaves a scar (I know, it's just a "for instance") is not critical to the story or gameplay. As an Artist/designer, I would love to have the detail (well, not that specifically mind you) but would give it up for the whole. It's just not that important. How I feel about the character I'm fighting is.
I agree that the Designer must be a good storyteller but perhaps not necessarily a Writer unless we're using the terms interchangeably here. I'm a good storyteller but my writing skills (which I'm sure is quite evident here) really suck. A writer can bring structure and (as any member of the team can) bring in new ideas and other conflicts or subplots.
Does a game need a story to work? Yes! Can a game be a "literary" or storytelling master piece? I hope so as I can't imagine a better goal or higher ideal. Brass rings should always be set high.
[an aside]
I'm really enjoying this thread. You guys have some wonderful thoughts and it's very stimulating. I hope we keep the discussion going. Wonderful :)
01/05/2007 (3:43 am)
Whoa there!A programmer has a more realistic and attainable game ideas!?
An Artist ideas are less attainable and more incredible!?
That's like saying the only person who can tell a good story is a writer!
:)
As a Designer and Artist, I have always challenged my programmers with "Can we do this?". Invariably, they say "no" and add some reason why it can't happen. 2 hours later, they come back and say "I thought about it and I think we can do this..." or even "Yes, we can do that". Cool.
But what I want to pull your attention to is "Can we do this?". Regardless of the project, it's a team effort and everyone has to challenge each other to do more than the usual. The example from Shiraz of each cut of the sword leaves a scar (I know, it's just a "for instance") is not critical to the story or gameplay. As an Artist/designer, I would love to have the detail (well, not that specifically mind you) but would give it up for the whole. It's just not that important. How I feel about the character I'm fighting is.
I agree that the Designer must be a good storyteller but perhaps not necessarily a Writer unless we're using the terms interchangeably here. I'm a good storyteller but my writing skills (which I'm sure is quite evident here) really suck. A writer can bring structure and (as any member of the team can) bring in new ideas and other conflicts or subplots.
Does a game need a story to work? Yes! Can a game be a "literary" or storytelling master piece? I hope so as I can't imagine a better goal or higher ideal. Brass rings should always be set high.
[an aside]
I'm really enjoying this thread. You guys have some wonderful thoughts and it's very stimulating. I hope we keep the discussion going. Wonderful :)
#52
01/05/2007 (7:28 am)
So, can we actually implement any of this theory? Does it indicate what is the best place to start when creating a game design, what should be decided and not yet decided when one attempts to recruit an artist or a programmer or whatever oneself isn't? Or maybe we could take a survey on what attracts each of us to work on a particular game design project or repels us from working on one?
#53
01/05/2007 (12:34 pm)
Or maybe I'm just over-analyzing this. After spending a while thinking about what attracts me to projects the answer was pretty simple: any details given need to agree with one of the few types of game I want to make, or the project should still be in the brainstorming phase so I can just explain what I want to do, and it helps if the person running the project is experienced, has a good attitude, and seems eloquent and organized.
#54
Now, what attracts me to a project? First of all if they have this design stage. Too many people out there get an idea and just launch into it. Games really need to be designed; gameplay, characters, art, programming, lighting, quest, etc (when each applies). Yes there will be occasions while creating the game when you say "this could be cool" or "what if we", but that shouldn't be happening through the whole project. That should have really happened BEFORE the project. Concept art; give me lots as well as proof of concept coding for various elements to make sure you're not insane. Map it out using project management software and REALLY figure out how big a job this is and if you have the time and/or budget. But you don't put together a team and just dive into it. First of all, you'll end up with team members that have nothing to do or elements being produced out of sync or with different ideas in mind.
The design stage should be a few key people, say, designer, writer, concept artist, lead 3D artist, lead programmer to hash things out, point out flaws, give insight and inspire ideas. I've seen things done in a committee with large teams and it does NOT work. And even within this small group there has to be a leader who is respected and will make the final call, even just chair the meetings.
Get the design doc done and now you can pull in the rest of your team. In fact now you should know just how big the team should be, what skills you need and how long the project will take. Oh and here's a piece of info that I've found to be almost 100% true in 10 years of project management. When you doing a timeline or manhours calculation, estimate the time it will take to do something without incident then multiply that number by 4. That's how long it will really take. You experienced developers know the incidents: program bugs (that's in the apps you're using as well as making), system crashes, learning curves, illness, miscommunication, "I needed to help A with B", and the dreaded "It SHOULD be working damnit!!!!"
As for what style or genre of projects attract me? Anything as long as I respect the people involved. And I don't even mind coming in for just the design phase and then leaving, though I prefer to stay on as writer and project manager. I think that even the most inane sounding ideas, with the right people guiding and building them, can turn into amazing ventures.
@James, yeah, I'm loving this thread too!
01/05/2007 (1:12 pm)
@Mare, Ok, you asked one question but answered another and that dynamic is exactly what I want to address. The question was "what attracts each of us to work on a particular game design project or repels us from working on one?" Note: game DESIGN project.Now, what attracts me to a project? First of all if they have this design stage. Too many people out there get an idea and just launch into it. Games really need to be designed; gameplay, characters, art, programming, lighting, quest, etc (when each applies). Yes there will be occasions while creating the game when you say "this could be cool" or "what if we", but that shouldn't be happening through the whole project. That should have really happened BEFORE the project. Concept art; give me lots as well as proof of concept coding for various elements to make sure you're not insane. Map it out using project management software and REALLY figure out how big a job this is and if you have the time and/or budget. But you don't put together a team and just dive into it. First of all, you'll end up with team members that have nothing to do or elements being produced out of sync or with different ideas in mind.
The design stage should be a few key people, say, designer, writer, concept artist, lead 3D artist, lead programmer to hash things out, point out flaws, give insight and inspire ideas. I've seen things done in a committee with large teams and it does NOT work. And even within this small group there has to be a leader who is respected and will make the final call, even just chair the meetings.
Get the design doc done and now you can pull in the rest of your team. In fact now you should know just how big the team should be, what skills you need and how long the project will take. Oh and here's a piece of info that I've found to be almost 100% true in 10 years of project management. When you doing a timeline or manhours calculation, estimate the time it will take to do something without incident then multiply that number by 4. That's how long it will really take. You experienced developers know the incidents: program bugs (that's in the apps you're using as well as making), system crashes, learning curves, illness, miscommunication, "I needed to help A with B", and the dreaded "It SHOULD be working damnit!!!!"
As for what style or genre of projects attract me? Anything as long as I respect the people involved. And I don't even mind coming in for just the design phase and then leaving, though I prefer to stay on as writer and project manager. I think that even the most inane sounding ideas, with the right people guiding and building them, can turn into amazing ventures.
@James, yeah, I'm loving this thread too!
#55
this is a great conversation, and I love reading it. My own two cents to add is that it would be unwise for anyone to speak in absolutes about what should or should not be the right way to approach something, or the 'who' should be approaching it and at what stage.
I personally not a big fan of game stories. This is not to say I am not a fan of stories, as I enjoy reading and movies. In terms of games, I like golf and chess.. neither of which have a story, both of which can have great drama.
this does not mean story in games is irrelevant or not important.. it does mean that my own personal leanings are away from story in games.. and to some extent, I think that pure interaction is more interesting, and more challenging from a design standpoint, than story is.
as a creator of 'things'.. I don't like to start from a point of where one 'should' start, or define how one should proceed. Different projects need different approaches. An RPG is not like a MP combat game in terms of the 'right' way to go about it.
My own leanings about crafting games takes a lot more from theatre and architechture in terms of learning the 'craft' of creating an interactive experience.. a lot more so than it does from writing or film making.
01/05/2007 (3:00 pm)
Wow, this is a great conversation, and I love reading it. My own two cents to add is that it would be unwise for anyone to speak in absolutes about what should or should not be the right way to approach something, or the 'who' should be approaching it and at what stage.
I personally not a big fan of game stories. This is not to say I am not a fan of stories, as I enjoy reading and movies. In terms of games, I like golf and chess.. neither of which have a story, both of which can have great drama.
this does not mean story in games is irrelevant or not important.. it does mean that my own personal leanings are away from story in games.. and to some extent, I think that pure interaction is more interesting, and more challenging from a design standpoint, than story is.
as a creator of 'things'.. I don't like to start from a point of where one 'should' start, or define how one should proceed. Different projects need different approaches. An RPG is not like a MP combat game in terms of the 'right' way to go about it.
My own leanings about crafting games takes a lot more from theatre and architechture in terms of learning the 'craft' of creating an interactive experience.. a lot more so than it does from writing or film making.
#56
You make a great point about some games though. We were talking more in the realm of adventures with regards to story. But imagine golf and chess with a story behind them??? ;-)
And please, don't just tell us there are other ways. Explain them. I want to learn as much as talk!
01/05/2007 (4:21 pm)
@Joe, I think we were going by the assumption "The ideas and opinion expressed in my post are entirely mine. Believe them at your own peril." So the absolutes are our own and sometimes not absolutely absolute. We're stubborn but flexible. :-) My comments come from experiences not only in gaming but business application development -less art importance there but good user interface design is highly important- and from successful and failed projects. You learn the most on the failed ones!You make a great point about some games though. We were talking more in the realm of adventures with regards to story. But imagine golf and chess with a story behind them??? ;-)
And please, don't just tell us there are other ways. Explain them. I want to learn as much as talk!
#57
And so we come to my deep, dark secret: I know very little about game design and production. Heck. I'm not even a hardcore gamer. I only assume that 'MP' stands for multi player. Most of the people posting on this thread seem to have a lot of experience with game creation. I don't.
It just seems like a lot of the talk I hear about games is about how sweet the graphics are or how someone has beat it 4 times in a row on Legendary. Only very, very rarely does someone say anything about a game's story, and those are usually games like the Myst series that are not particularly about gameplay or excitement very much, if at all.
I think it would be excellent... but you already know what I think. I seem to get off topic every time I post.
01/05/2007 (4:44 pm)
James-I was speaking in sweeping generalizations. But it seems that you kind of agree with me about that. You say to your programmers "can we do this?" and their initial response is "no". I don't have much experience with stuff like this, but if I'm the one with the original idea and I'll be doing the work in those areas, I'm gonna go with what I know before I try to push the envelope. That's all that I meant by those comments.And so we come to my deep, dark secret: I know very little about game design and production. Heck. I'm not even a hardcore gamer. I only assume that 'MP' stands for multi player. Most of the people posting on this thread seem to have a lot of experience with game creation. I don't.
It just seems like a lot of the talk I hear about games is about how sweet the graphics are or how someone has beat it 4 times in a row on Legendary. Only very, very rarely does someone say anything about a game's story, and those are usually games like the Myst series that are not particularly about gameplay or excitement very much, if at all.
I think it would be excellent... but you already know what I think. I seem to get off topic every time I post.
#58
And so we come to my deep, dark secret: I know very little about game design and production. Heck. I'm not even a hardcore gamer. I only assume that 'MP' stands for multi player. Most of the people posting on this thread seem to have a lot of experience with game creation. I don't.
It just seems like a lot of the talk I hear about games is about how sweet the graphics are or how someone has beat it 4 times in a row on Legendary. Only very, very rarely does someone say anything about a game's story, and those are usually games like the Myst series that are not particularly about gameplay or excitement very much, if at all.
I think it would be excellent... but you already know what I think. I seem to get off topic every time I post.
01/05/2007 (4:50 pm)
James-I was speaking in sweeping generalizations. But it seems that you kind of agree with me about that. You say to your programmers "can we do this?" and their initial response is "no". I don't have much experience with stuff like this, but if I'm the one with the original idea and I'll be doing the work in those areas, I'm gonna go with what I know before I try to push the envelope. That's all that I meant by those comments.And so we come to my deep, dark secret: I know very little about game design and production. Heck. I'm not even a hardcore gamer. I only assume that 'MP' stands for multi player. Most of the people posting on this thread seem to have a lot of experience with game creation. I don't.
It just seems like a lot of the talk I hear about games is about how sweet the graphics are or how someone has beat it 4 times in a row on Legendary. Only very, very rarely does someone say anything about a game's story, and those are usually games like the Myst series that are not particularly about gameplay or excitement very much, if at all.
I think it would be excellent... but you already know what I think. I seem to get off topic every time I post.
#59
The last game I played that had what I thought were interesting attempts at furthering in-game storytelling was Halflife 2. For the first time in my gaming experience, I did not lose control of the game for a cut scene. If I walked away, the character commented on it. The last time I was caught up in a game and it's story like that was Halo and Syberia. In fact, I just purchased Benoit's latest game "Paradise". That and Mike (Rubes) has got me hooked on IF games again - I'll be playing Vespers this weekend I suspect :)
P.S. - I'm a big fan of the original Myst too :)
01/05/2007 (7:49 pm)
@Vitreous - It wasn't my intent to belittle what you said but felt I had to respond if for nothing else clarity from my perspective. And that's all it is in the end - one man's opinion. Your contributions to this thread have been excellent and have stimulated further discussion regardless of your experience. Please continue posting :)The last game I played that had what I thought were interesting attempts at furthering in-game storytelling was Halflife 2. For the first time in my gaming experience, I did not lose control of the game for a cut scene. If I walked away, the character commented on it. The last time I was caught up in a game and it's story like that was Halo and Syberia. In fact, I just purchased Benoit's latest game "Paradise". That and Mike (Rubes) has got me hooked on IF games again - I'll be playing Vespers this weekend I suspect :)
P.S. - I'm a big fan of the original Myst too :)
#60
yes, I understand that it is opinion mostly, but I jump in sometimes as sometimes the younger and less experienced take the word as law, and that can be dangerous.
My own opinion is that the game, the team's experience, and the size of the team are all variables in the approach the team takes to making a game.
For an RPG, lots of paper planning and discussion (a paper prototype) are necessary. Also necessary, in my opinion, is great writing on the micro level.. as in, the character to character interactions need to be engaging (and possibly amusing).. this takes someone with a good sense of humor as much as it does good writing skills.. I see this as a writing skill.. but quite separate from the ability to craft a story. Animators in fact are pretty good at making these interactions cool (note that animation study usually encompases study of story, film, theatre, body langauge, acting, etc..).
In these cases, I personally would favor acting skills over writing skills, as the design of micro interactions can what gives the game 'life', even if the story is trite. Experiencing a trite story with great interactions (like the movie Oceans Eleven) can be really fun.
In terms of map design, I give the nod to architechtural training. In architechture school, time is giving to the understanding of how people interact with space, and how to design space that people interact with on an emotional level.. the conceptual side of it is interesting, and I feel it is more on point than story. If you can convey emotion by design of a space.. or create a space for interaction that 'tells a story' or conveys information by it's design.. well, that is huge when the interactions rarely follow a script.
in terms of project management, I far prefer an agile style of interative development cycles, sometimes with no design doc at all except a high level goal description.
On art production, I often like to go in a 'grey block' the whole thing, and let the play of the game inform how it should look.. sometimes for practical reasons (gotta see the enemy's agaisnt the sky) or for presentation reasons ( I want this to feel scary, so choose the colors to convey the emotion)..
in an interactive environment, I prefer to design in the environment that is being interacted with.
this is not to say I am anit planning.. the more the better, but depending on the project, the point of diminishing returns can be unclear. with an RPG, the point of dimishing returns done by paper planning (design docs) is actually way out there.. lots of docs and reworking before implementation can be very helpful.
for a MP sandbox game.. or a shooter.. not so much, it is often more effective to just get in there and see what it feels like and tweak until you get something fun. messy, yes.. but effective in terms of developer time spent.
from a project management perspective, size of the project matters.. the more there is, the more it matters to be methodical in tracking tasks.. the smaller it is, the more one can get away with a 'good feel' of how things are going.
On concept art.. sometimes lots up front is good.. sometimes it is good to get in there and play the prototype.. allowing that to inform the conceptual art.
these are all aspects of how I approach things.. and my background is an artist, with some game design and project management experience, along with some coding and scripting experience. I also have a lot of things I have read.. history, physcology, science.. lots of things that make me who I am, and with similar experiences of everyone on my teams.. well, all of these add up to make a unique team that is able to approach things in a unique way.
in terms of our teams.. no one at GG is pure 'artist'.. none of the artists here are slackers when it comes to scripting and coding.. most are somewhere inbetween.
so when classifications are thrown out about 'artist' or 'coder', I personally don't see the distinction.. nor do I generalize as 'artist' created games or 'coder' created games. depending on the game, and the particular skills and knowledge of the person, it may or may not be an appropriate fit for that person and/or skillset..
01/05/2007 (7:52 pm)
@Shiraz, yes, I understand that it is opinion mostly, but I jump in sometimes as sometimes the younger and less experienced take the word as law, and that can be dangerous.
My own opinion is that the game, the team's experience, and the size of the team are all variables in the approach the team takes to making a game.
For an RPG, lots of paper planning and discussion (a paper prototype) are necessary. Also necessary, in my opinion, is great writing on the micro level.. as in, the character to character interactions need to be engaging (and possibly amusing).. this takes someone with a good sense of humor as much as it does good writing skills.. I see this as a writing skill.. but quite separate from the ability to craft a story. Animators in fact are pretty good at making these interactions cool (note that animation study usually encompases study of story, film, theatre, body langauge, acting, etc..).
In these cases, I personally would favor acting skills over writing skills, as the design of micro interactions can what gives the game 'life', even if the story is trite. Experiencing a trite story with great interactions (like the movie Oceans Eleven) can be really fun.
In terms of map design, I give the nod to architechtural training. In architechture school, time is giving to the understanding of how people interact with space, and how to design space that people interact with on an emotional level.. the conceptual side of it is interesting, and I feel it is more on point than story. If you can convey emotion by design of a space.. or create a space for interaction that 'tells a story' or conveys information by it's design.. well, that is huge when the interactions rarely follow a script.
in terms of project management, I far prefer an agile style of interative development cycles, sometimes with no design doc at all except a high level goal description.
On art production, I often like to go in a 'grey block' the whole thing, and let the play of the game inform how it should look.. sometimes for practical reasons (gotta see the enemy's agaisnt the sky) or for presentation reasons ( I want this to feel scary, so choose the colors to convey the emotion)..
in an interactive environment, I prefer to design in the environment that is being interacted with.
this is not to say I am anit planning.. the more the better, but depending on the project, the point of diminishing returns can be unclear. with an RPG, the point of dimishing returns done by paper planning (design docs) is actually way out there.. lots of docs and reworking before implementation can be very helpful.
for a MP sandbox game.. or a shooter.. not so much, it is often more effective to just get in there and see what it feels like and tweak until you get something fun. messy, yes.. but effective in terms of developer time spent.
from a project management perspective, size of the project matters.. the more there is, the more it matters to be methodical in tracking tasks.. the smaller it is, the more one can get away with a 'good feel' of how things are going.
On concept art.. sometimes lots up front is good.. sometimes it is good to get in there and play the prototype.. allowing that to inform the conceptual art.
these are all aspects of how I approach things.. and my background is an artist, with some game design and project management experience, along with some coding and scripting experience. I also have a lot of things I have read.. history, physcology, science.. lots of things that make me who I am, and with similar experiences of everyone on my teams.. well, all of these add up to make a unique team that is able to approach things in a unique way.
in terms of our teams.. no one at GG is pure 'artist'.. none of the artists here are slackers when it comes to scripting and coding.. most are somewhere inbetween.
so when classifications are thrown out about 'artist' or 'coder', I personally don't see the distinction.. nor do I generalize as 'artist' created games or 'coder' created games. depending on the game, and the particular skills and knowledge of the person, it may or may not be an appropriate fit for that person and/or skillset..
Torque Owner KrisL
When adding too much story you will end up with a cutscene presentation or a interactive movie.
On the other hand when giving the gamer more freedom you will degenerate the story.