Ideas for games...by artists

#21 @ Sam - I have mixed feelings regarding your comment:

Quote:The simple fact is, between the GG content packs and excellent sites like turbosquid, you will almost get away without custom-created artwork. But there's no way you'll get away without bespoke programming work, unless you want to make a basic FPS.

You know what, you're absolutely right. But what you forget is that where Programmers have Content Packs, Artists have resources and "Kits", which allows them to take their game idea to a point. Like you, when the time arrives that they need specific code snippets or mods, we can contract or contact a programmer to develop those areas.

So in a way, we're back to square one. You, like the artists here, can use placeholder art the way I use placeholder code (or just basic code) and develop a game to the point of hiring someone to help finish it.

Partnerships? I'm with you. Unless the project starts out with a solid relationship to begin with and each member of that team understands the expectations (this is where contracts are useful) of the others, it's doomed to failure (in some cases).

For me, I'll accept help as it's offered and hopefully be able to give back in some small way in return.

Do indie artists have the same options as programmers? Damn straight we do - it just depends on how you tackle it :)

edit: punctuation :P

#22 @ Mare - I read your DD although I stopped at character descriptions :)

First of all - Nice Job!

I like the basic idea behind it very much and I think there is enough there that you can get started with development. I think given the scope though, you may want to revisit the Document and focus the game a bit.

Do you have a TGE or TGB license?

Drop me a line if you'd like to discuss further :)

#23 James: sure. I was only really pitching things from my own perspective and how they have worked out for me; there are many ways to do things right, and probably a lot more ways to do them wrong... the main thing is, a lot of us have similar dreams and motivations, which is why a community like GG is so great, putting so many likeminded people together.

edit: any game I've worked on has involved massive amounts of code changes, and wouldn't have been possible for an artist to get to a nearly complete stage using 'kits'. But then I guess you choose your battles wisely if you're wise: an artist trying to do something similar would tend to make a game with less original coding required and more original art required.

#24 @ James - thank you. Development actually was started and then the project died, not being a programmer I don't own any programming licenses or anything, and I emailed you a more detailed response.

#25 @ Sam - Absolutely, I understood that you were speaking from your perspective and I appreciate that. I hope my post didn't come across as aggressive or anything. I must say I've been enjoying the sharing of thoughts around this :)

As you say, you have to choose your battles wisely (hopefully) - ;)

Cheers!

#26 James- no worries, I didn't see any aggression in your post..

#27 @Mare Kuntz

Honestly? How does a programmer or an artist or a designer put together a whole team to make a game? That's why games need producers. Everyone wonders what the hell producers actually do and that right there is one of the biggest pieces of the job. Putting together a team.

How does an indie producer put together a team? Boy. That's another chicken and egg question. I think it depends on if team members are working for pay or free. Pay makes it a lot easier to get people together even at lower than standard professional rates.

I put together a tight group of people to do work for a game for pay in 2-3 days. Granted, that's because I've been cultivating relationships with people in the community over the years here. Could I put together a team without pay? I doubt it. If I had a lot of professional game credits I could probably do it because people would be willing to take a risk with their time and efforts to work with me knowing that I have a successful track record. Otherwise, I doubt I could put together a team for free.

My opinion is that everyone should build a portfolio and get a job and do games for other people first before ever trying to make their own game. Unless you are a kid and then you should join mod communities and build a reputation as a modder. This is assuming you want to actually make a sellable indie game... not just play around for a hobby.

#28 @ Anton Bursch

Maybe I misunderstood something, but isn't a producer:
"pro-du-cer n. Someone from a game publisher who will be the liaison between the publisher and the game development team." (quote: Marc Mencher)
So if they are working with publishers how do they fit in the concept of an Indie-game design team?
Beside this, where does a "Indie-producer" get the money to pay the team? If it's a publisher than how can he be Indie?
And if it's his money isn't he then also the publisher (so the Indie-team becomes again a "normal" team)?

PS: sorry for the bad english

#29 @Kristian Ljubek

Quote:A game producer is the person in charge of overseeing development of a video or computer game.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_producer

Wikipedia has a great description of producers in games. All I have to say is this... if there's is no producer and a game gets done and done well it's because there was and nobody called them a producer.

I wish that everyone could just work together to make a game without anyone in charge of overseeing the development but it is not a reality. Games are complex productions and someone has to be keeping track of everything going on while everyone else is busy doing their piece of the job. I actually think that the biggest reason that there are so few indie games is that their are so few indie producers. Look at Andy who did Venture Africa and Arctic. Perfect example of an indie producer.

I think that if more people who have producer like jobs in other fields would learn to produce games and pull together teams that there would be more indie games and less ghosts of IOTD and GID. I know I sure needed one these last couple years. I had a decent game idea, some money and dedication and I emailed Jeff Tunnell about help finding a producer. He suggested Josh Dallman who was too busy (or too kind to say he just wasn't interested). Now of course Jeff has snatched up Josh forever.

I would love to see more people who are producers waiting to emerge give it a try. You know who you are. People who can do it all, but really know that they are better at coordinating it all and keeping a focused vision for the development and keeping a unity and energy in the team. You know the difference between challenge and banging your head against the wall and you protect your team making sure they will be able to successfull navigate the development utilizing both their expertise and your understanding of the big picture. You are invaluable. You are also, as of now, mostly a myth. :(

#30 Well Anton, I am the producer of my game. From what I've heard from Mare, she was the producer of her game. The job we did or are doing for our projects fits your definition of a Producer. I am also the artist and game designer. The problem is, I don't have a fulltime coder on board to handle all the niggly bits I need done for the game.

An Indie game is by definition (almost) a small group affair where people have to wear many hats. I agree the success of a game depends on the person who is filling this role but I don't think it necessarily has to do with money. I know people who are being paid but are not highly motivated (it's a mistake to make the assumption pay = motivation I think).

In the end, there is one person on the team that has to keep that team motivated. How you do that will depend on the make up your team, their personal agendas and your own motivation. And perhaps there is a clue: the people you approach have their own agendas and are looking to fulfill them. Paying someone only works if their agenda is to simply get paid for doing work.

For some of us, it's an opportunity to learn, to be challenged and perhaps to get foot or even a toe into this industry. If a project offers that opportunity, we're enthusiastic and willingly join and pitch in. But the moment that project no longer fulfills that agenda, we move on.

To your point, if the driving force behind that project (the Artist/Producer or Programmer/Producer) does not provide timely motivation, people's agendas are being neglected and they'll look else where.

At the end of the day, I as an indie game developer can not afford (monetarily or time wise) to manage a team bigger than 2 to 4 people. And I'm trying to also manage my own expectations.

If this doesn't succeed, it has not been a waste of time. Each team I've seen come together and eventually fall apart (and to be fair, it's not been many), there has still been lots learned. Trying is never a waste of time. Not trying, just dreaming of game design, is.

Got a little off topic there Anton but I like a lot of your thinking here regardless of my ramblings :)

In the end, whether they are called Producer, Game designer, Artist or Programmer, someone has to hold the vision, have the passion to motivate his/her team.

It's all a learning process and this is the hardest to get right.

Cheers :)

*edit: spelling

#31 There is a great feature about Game producers on Gamasutra
http://gamasutra.com/features/20060705/mencher_01.shtml

If more people,, who have producer like jobs in other fields, would learn to produce games and pull teams together, there would be more Indie-games? I can't agree .
If this is going to work people have to love games and love creating new one.
But classical producers will never go Indie, they will go to publishers.
Also, I don't think that the classical game producer does fit into the whole concept of an Indie Game.
The reason is that a classical producer will never fund a fresh and maybe risky idea.
Why should he/she? The most producers philosophy is "Never change a winning team",
that's the reason we see so many Grand Theft Auto, Halo and World of Warcraft clones
and if you look at the market all those young Gamers "want" (a hooray to the PR guys)
a new "Grand Halo Craft" game (and young "Game designers" want to make one ;)).

I totally agree with James.
I doesn't matter what you are doing Design, Art or Programming.
There are many Game Designers out there that have started in various fields.
But if you want to be an Indie you've got to be a "Jack of all Trades".
You have to motivate yourself and try to transfer this enthusiasm to your team.
Specialization is the death of everything (especially creativity).
Look at the dinosaurs they didn't make it ;)

best regards

#32 @Kristian Ljubek

Come on, dinos may not have been around for the last few million years, but they made it for what? 250 million? that's not a bad run. :P

#33 @ Anton Bursch

Touche :)

#34 Here's a random thought - do artists usually prefer 2D games while programmers usually prefer 3D games? It's unquestionable that there are a lot more 2D artists than 3D artists around, yet the 3D torque engine seems to be a lot more popular in game development projects than the 2D version...

#35 @Mare: I would say that this is, at least in part, due to the fact that TGE has been around a bit longer. TGB is a much more 'finished' product now and I think we'll see a lot more TGB production in the coming months/years.

I've been working on a TGE title for a while now, but now that TGB is looking like a great system I'd love to try a 2D graphics-and-text-parser-style adventure game at some point. As long as I can convince a good artist to come along for the ride...;)

#36 @Mare

Yes, I prefer more 2D art! From my viewpoint it's easier to produce good 2D art than good 3D art.
For good 2D art you need skills and Photoshop, but for good 3D art you will need skills, a modelling software
(Maya, Max or XSI optionally Z-Brush for the normal Maps), and Photoshop, for concept art and textures
(Z-Brush is also very good in adding textures). So when looking at costs 2D art is much cheaper.
Also not every artist out there covers both, 2D (Painter) and 3D (Scupltor) skills.
As a 3D artist you can get very easy into the "uncanny valley" when going for "realistic" graphics.
A good example would be Everquest 2! Great from the technical viewpoint but artistically it's soulless.
There is also a time and team-size factor to consider.

I think the big popularity of the 3D torque engine is the, as already mentioned above...
hmmm let me call it: "The Grand-Halo-Craft Factor" ;)

At the moment I am working on an 2D arcade platformer. I's nothing big, and the possibility to finish it is good. I think that's a quite realistic approach.

@ Rubes: like good old Spellcasting 101? :)

#37 Thought I would add that BraveTree's first game, ThinkTanks, was thought up and led by an artist (sort of, it was really a full team effort).

Rack'em up Road Trip was also lead by an artist.

I no longer think of myself as an artist.. I am now more an artist/game designer/project manager. I think that being indie blurs the lines a lot more than at the bigger shops in the larger industry. With what we do, the roles cross over quite a bit in terms of where the coding begins and the art ends, and who can be a successful designer/producer/project manager/director.

I started calling everyone a 'developer', recognizing that each person may (or may not) have certain skills that they bring to the table.

I have been really lucky in that I have been able to work with some great programmers who have respected my ideas and direction and worked with me to help get the things that I want to become 'real'.

I have a ton more ideas I want to do, and these ideas are going to take some convincing, inspiring, planning, and arm twisting to get from idea stage to completed products.

#38 It's been a rediculously long time since I've posted on this site and every time I look back over old posts I realize that I sound like an idiot when I post. That said, I'll try to make my comments at least seemingly intelligent.

I've witnessed MANY projects (mostly indie-films, which are in many ways similar to indie games) start fresh and strong. I've seen crews put together, knowing full well that they wouldn't be doing it for money. I've seen projects go into pre-production with everyone excited and thick with new ideas and a willingness to work. And I've seen nearly every project die brutally long before they're finished.

The only time they've worked is if you have a firm deadline and, as has already been mentioned on this thread, strong direction from a singular person. A producer, a director. Someone has to be the leader. Everyone wants something different out of the project. You have those who are only in it so they can say "check it out. I made this," and you have those who want to help because it's in their nature. Then you have those who feel they can give the project artistic flair or some such selfish visionary blather. This tends to create different paths of direction, with the original writer or director scratching their head wondering why it isn't their project anymore. The entertainment field is a difficult one to balance.

All of that said, it can be a struggle for artists (definition in this case: someone with a personal artistic vision. Someone trying to tell a story or an emotion through their work) to realize that this is the ENTERTAINMENT industry. People must be entertained, not just impressed with your artistic vision. When people want a game, they're not looking for a painting. They want something that will draw them in and hold them there for a long time.

Still, that's one of the saddest things in the gaming world, and it's part of the reason that indie gaming is such a wonderful thing. Are you sick of seeing the same gameplay over and over and over again? Games with a total lack of story, or at the most, a generic plot? I believe strongly that games should have story and purpose. I believe that games can be more than mindless fun (like the old NES games. You only ever had a very basic understanding of who Mario was or why he needed coins), that they can be a more effective carrier for rich story than books or movies simply because they are the only form of entertainment in which those entertained actually TAKE PART in the experience.

I am not an artist. I have ideas for games and I try and I try to draw out characters and places, but I have fumbling hands. I don't know code and frankly don't have the time or enough interest to learn. I can only model very basic things. Maybe it's only because I can't do these things that I ask this:

Doesn't it make sense that a writer, a story person, someone with the knowledge and experience to come up with original storyline and characters, would create the story for a game?

Games should be more than gameplay, in my personal opinion. And while artists and programmers are the lifeblood of game creation, it makes more sense to me that there be a writer to take care of story and plot, or at least to flesh out ideas.

There. I wrote quite a bit more than I planned to. I hope it's not entirely rubbish...

#39 Not entirely. ;-)

Actually it was quite well written, inciteful and, dare I say it, accurate.

There. I wrote quite a bit less than I planned to. ;-)

#40 Well being a writer myself, of course I agree writers should create good deep game stories. ;) But, that only really works if the writer is the designer, because the story is inextricably part of the game concept along with the genre, basic gameplay, and art style of the game. Just today someone asked me, "Hey you're a writer, can you help our story?" And I looked at what they had, a shallow thing involving a hero, undead, and an evil overlord with 9 generic minions. I explained that I write about relationships, create cultures, explore character psychology and theme. The designer said "Oh we just want something simple, a reason for the monsters to be attacking. We don't want relationships." So I said no, I couldn't help them. It's a disturbingly common problem - most people who aren't writers don't understand what makes a good story and ask for a bad one just because that's what they're used to seeing in games. I could handle it if somebody asked me to emulate a _good_ game story or anime series or movie, but what can you do when people want cliche crap?