Ideas for games...by artists
by Rubes · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 12/07/2006 (10:49 am) · 98 replies
Here's something I always wanted to see addressed directly, as it has been touched on in some previous threads. Then again, maybe it has already been discussed directly before, and I'm a lazy slob for not catching it.
It seems the typical process for super-low-budget (ie, no budget) indie game development is: Single programmer, has what he thinks is a killer idea for the Next Big Game; struggles to get far because of the dreaded Art Bottleneck (for now I'll leave out the "struggles because he bites off far more than he can chew" pathway). The idea might work, but development stalls when he can't attract a good artist to participate in the project in exchange for only "a promise of future earnings." Understandable, although there are potentially ways to work through that.
On the other hand, I've heard of a few instances where games were initiated by the indie game artist, who then recruited programmers to help implement the idea. Not many, but then again I haven't paid close attention to that. But it would seem to be the more effective way to go, since that essentially removes one of the big economic hurdles to completing projects like these.
To me, as a programmer, this would also seem to be a potential way to advance a project of my own, if an artist with his or her own game idea would be willing to exchange work on both projects. That's actually how I got going on Vespers, although our arrangement has since morphed into something a bit different. Nevertheless...
I'm just really interested to see/hear what projects out there were really initiated and led by the artist, and which of these have followed through to completion.
And also, what artists out there have their own game ideas and are looking for programmers to help implement them?
It's also a good idea for artists wanting to learn a little programming with Torque, especially if they get involved with programmers who are willing to take the time to teach what they are doing. Not to mention programmers who are interested in mastering Torque, since it gives them a chance to learn by doing in a setting where they needn't worry about other game assets.
It seems the typical process for super-low-budget (ie, no budget) indie game development is: Single programmer, has what he thinks is a killer idea for the Next Big Game; struggles to get far because of the dreaded Art Bottleneck (for now I'll leave out the "struggles because he bites off far more than he can chew" pathway). The idea might work, but development stalls when he can't attract a good artist to participate in the project in exchange for only "a promise of future earnings." Understandable, although there are potentially ways to work through that.
On the other hand, I've heard of a few instances where games were initiated by the indie game artist, who then recruited programmers to help implement the idea. Not many, but then again I haven't paid close attention to that. But it would seem to be the more effective way to go, since that essentially removes one of the big economic hurdles to completing projects like these.
To me, as a programmer, this would also seem to be a potential way to advance a project of my own, if an artist with his or her own game idea would be willing to exchange work on both projects. That's actually how I got going on Vespers, although our arrangement has since morphed into something a bit different. Nevertheless...
I'm just really interested to see/hear what projects out there were really initiated and led by the artist, and which of these have followed through to completion.
And also, what artists out there have their own game ideas and are looking for programmers to help implement them?
It's also a good idea for artists wanting to learn a little programming with Torque, especially if they get involved with programmers who are willing to take the time to teach what they are doing. Not to mention programmers who are interested in mastering Torque, since it gives them a chance to learn by doing in a setting where they needn't worry about other game assets.
#2
12/07/2006 (11:27 am)
@James: Yeah, I've been following your blogs for a while now. Really good stuff. Love your artistic style. I was intrigued by your blog about C.O.R.E., given that I'm working on a 3D adaptation of a text adventure game. I've been toying around with the idea of applying the same approach to a 2D game with TGB. 
#3
Probably I am getting carried away... :) Anyway- my 3 C.
12/07/2006 (11:46 am)
I am thinking about something that fits your description- game made as a showoff ("Look, that's what we can do with engine you all claim to know so well") . One advantage of such approach is that you got to start with very best designs/models etc. you can do- otherwise there is no point in even starting. It means: no temporary art, no "it's good enough"- in any case it's a graphic card processor glow- causing project. It also means: you have art that works in engine first, then (and only then) you can let your imagination fly with ideas like story. In worst case scenario you will have good looking average gameplay shooter (or rts), or assets for sale and- being 100% honest- more people will buy game that looks sweet even if it plays just average then one that plays good but looks like made in 80's.Probably I am getting carried away... :) Anyway- my 3 C.
#4
Great games start with great ideas.
12/07/2006 (2:10 pm)
@RMK: I can't really say I advocate that kind of approach, though. Starting with artwork and then create a game around it? Perhaps if you're just looking at a tool for showing off your artwork, but it won't be much more than that. And I'm not so sure I agree with your last statement...in fact, I would argue that's one of the main reasons the game industry is caught in a rut.Great games start with great ideas.
#5
Having said that- of course great ideas are not bound to any profession :). But their implementation in most of the cases requires certain knowledge that either artists and programmers might be lacking.
You disagree with me- that's by all means ok, such a disagreement might be very constructive in team but just for a while take a look at GG and starting projects- what you will see ?
About 80 % of new game ideas appearing here are "let's make yet another MMORPG" and most of them never get to beta- not to mention publishing. My approach is different- let's start with making something that looks good (good looks are something I can talk about because I know how to achieve that kind of goal) and has BASIC but complete functionality. This way we (in hypothetical team created for sake of discussion) will get to know out strengths and weaknesses without getting too high on dreams and promises that can never get real. Why am I putting so much emphasis on good look ? Because there is no point in going back in terms of graphic and making something that is obsolete when you can do something that is not.
Hope you'll not take our little chat too serious- after all it's just theorizing.
12/07/2006 (2:38 pm)
Most probably you are right- I might be seeking a platform to show off but then tell me- what's other goal of being an (sorry for big word) artist ? To humbly sit in a corner ? My function in team is to do everything to make project LOOK good and that's what I am trying to do, as much as my modest skills allow me. Function of programmer is to make it run smoothly and role of designer is to have a complete vision of gameplay, USP's and other things that require totally different set of skills then mine (or programmers).Having said that- of course great ideas are not bound to any profession :). But their implementation in most of the cases requires certain knowledge that either artists and programmers might be lacking.
You disagree with me- that's by all means ok, such a disagreement might be very constructive in team but just for a while take a look at GG and starting projects- what you will see ?
About 80 % of new game ideas appearing here are "let's make yet another MMORPG" and most of them never get to beta- not to mention publishing. My approach is different- let's start with making something that looks good (good looks are something I can talk about because I know how to achieve that kind of goal) and has BASIC but complete functionality. This way we (in hypothetical team created for sake of discussion) will get to know out strengths and weaknesses without getting too high on dreams and promises that can never get real. Why am I putting so much emphasis on good look ? Because there is no point in going back in terms of graphic and making something that is obsolete when you can do something that is not.
Hope you'll not take our little chat too serious- after all it's just theorizing.
#6
I think it's certainly a good idea for an artist to have their work on display in an actual game, as opposed to, say, a website portfolio, although both are effective. So if you're an artist and you're looking for more than just some digital stills for your portfolio, working on a game is a great idea.
To me, though, that's not much more than what we get with the Stronghold mission that comes with TGE. There are some really nice models in the Stronghold mission, and it serves the artist well as a way of showing off his skill. But it's not much of a game. Putting more functionality into the Stronghold mission to make it more of a complete game would help, but it's doubtful it would do well, and if showing off your skill is the ultimate goal, I would think you would want to develop a game that will have widespread appeal and attraction. Just having really pretty graphics, at least to me, won't necessarily accomplish that.
In any case, that gets a little bit away from the original question(s), but it's an interesting discussion itself.
12/08/2006 (4:03 pm)
@RMK: Not at all, these are good discussions to have.I think it's certainly a good idea for an artist to have their work on display in an actual game, as opposed to, say, a website portfolio, although both are effective. So if you're an artist and you're looking for more than just some digital stills for your portfolio, working on a game is a great idea.
To me, though, that's not much more than what we get with the Stronghold mission that comes with TGE. There are some really nice models in the Stronghold mission, and it serves the artist well as a way of showing off his skill. But it's not much of a game. Putting more functionality into the Stronghold mission to make it more of a complete game would help, but it's doubtful it would do well, and if showing off your skill is the ultimate goal, I would think you would want to develop a game that will have widespread appeal and attraction. Just having really pretty graphics, at least to me, won't necessarily accomplish that.
In any case, that gets a little bit away from the original question(s), but it's an interesting discussion itself.
#7
Thing I am proposing- or difference in approach is not first building a backbone of the game and then dress it -as it happens in normal situation we all know too well but: because we already do have a TGE as our backbone- engine with all basic functionality that is required for prototype game, be it racing game, flight sim, FPS or RTS (sorry if I've forgotten about something, TGE grows quite fast with all this packs), because it is there, we do not have to spend manhours on writing engine from scrap, we can jump into development of graphic without bothering about- say- animation format, if it will change or not because it is already in place, we are starting almost at technical proof level- in place where most of the teams get after 5-6 months of constant work. Because of that fact I am saying- let graphic guys loose. They do have engine and scripts, if they will invent something that is not working- it's their fault so you do not even need a stick to hit them- either something will work or not. If it will- great. If not- they are supposed to make it work because it is not fault of software (can't be because they all have compiled demo to work with and it works).
This phase will take at least month for single level mod with 2 characters and 4 weapons. During that time designer- together with programmers- are free to work on functionality. If after this month you do not have good graphic it means your team is not working as it should and investing more into it without making changes is dangerous and leads straight into deep... ekhm. Did it, been there, still can't get rid of this smell.
If on the other case it works - you are on safe side. In our sample case of Torque you have a basic shooter with own gui, one level, two skins and four weapons. Not bad, not bad at all. If you will add sound you do have a nice minigame.
What's more important: you know all parts are working, have same basic functionality your TGE or TSE demo app has. Now- if you want to make changes in gameplay- your call (you really should) but you already have WORKING prototype of game. Your own, working, shooting and dying. If you will have a chance to show it- you can do it and start promotion with tangible materials. You can talk to publishers, you can show it to media- it simply IS there.
Of course entire gameplay thing will make it remembered or forgotten in the end- no matter if game will be designed by proggie, pixel monkey or sound guy, but what can- and in most cases will- help you to get your foot in the door will not be a demo with box moving around but cute screens, animations and nice looks. A bit... misleading ? Sure, it is but in the end you are not showing a product but demo at this point and this demo is there to show your teams potential, to make same little hokus- pokus with your would-be-publisher' brain they are doing to all of us by reviews, screens, posters, in game gameplay movies (rendered neatly in Maya)
Simply speaking it's there to get on hook somebody who will help you to make it right. The sooner you are capable of doing it- the less dev cost (and risk) rests on your head. In my opinion in case of TGE/TSE it should start with more emphasis on art dev and bit less- on code.
12/08/2006 (4:44 pm)
Oh sure, I agree- it would make no sense to make a game just to show off personal skill. People do not buy games to admire graphics (at least most of them). I am working in this industry long enough to know that. Thing I am proposing- or difference in approach is not first building a backbone of the game and then dress it -as it happens in normal situation we all know too well but: because we already do have a TGE as our backbone- engine with all basic functionality that is required for prototype game, be it racing game, flight sim, FPS or RTS (sorry if I've forgotten about something, TGE grows quite fast with all this packs), because it is there, we do not have to spend manhours on writing engine from scrap, we can jump into development of graphic without bothering about- say- animation format, if it will change or not because it is already in place, we are starting almost at technical proof level- in place where most of the teams get after 5-6 months of constant work. Because of that fact I am saying- let graphic guys loose. They do have engine and scripts, if they will invent something that is not working- it's their fault so you do not even need a stick to hit them- either something will work or not. If it will- great. If not- they are supposed to make it work because it is not fault of software (can't be because they all have compiled demo to work with and it works).
This phase will take at least month for single level mod with 2 characters and 4 weapons. During that time designer- together with programmers- are free to work on functionality. If after this month you do not have good graphic it means your team is not working as it should and investing more into it without making changes is dangerous and leads straight into deep... ekhm. Did it, been there, still can't get rid of this smell.
If on the other case it works - you are on safe side. In our sample case of Torque you have a basic shooter with own gui, one level, two skins and four weapons. Not bad, not bad at all. If you will add sound you do have a nice minigame.
What's more important: you know all parts are working, have same basic functionality your TGE or TSE demo app has. Now- if you want to make changes in gameplay- your call (you really should) but you already have WORKING prototype of game. Your own, working, shooting and dying. If you will have a chance to show it- you can do it and start promotion with tangible materials. You can talk to publishers, you can show it to media- it simply IS there.
Of course entire gameplay thing will make it remembered or forgotten in the end- no matter if game will be designed by proggie, pixel monkey or sound guy, but what can- and in most cases will- help you to get your foot in the door will not be a demo with box moving around but cute screens, animations and nice looks. A bit... misleading ? Sure, it is but in the end you are not showing a product but demo at this point and this demo is there to show your teams potential, to make same little hokus- pokus with your would-be-publisher' brain they are doing to all of us by reviews, screens, posters, in game gameplay movies (rendered neatly in Maya)
Simply speaking it's there to get on hook somebody who will help you to make it right. The sooner you are capable of doing it- the less dev cost (and risk) rests on your head. In my opinion in case of TGE/TSE it should start with more emphasis on art dev and bit less- on code.
#8
Love what you've been up to. Very atmosphere... as only the best adventures can be :)
12/09/2006 (9:04 am)
@ Rube: I must admit, I've been hankering for a nice adventure game. Love to talk to you about it.Love what you've been up to. Very atmosphere... as only the best adventures can be :)
#9
12/12/2006 (3:51 pm)
@James: Thanks...I sent you an e-mail if you're interested in discussing it... 
#10
Me, I'm a game designer/writer/2D artist and have been wishing for quite a while to team up with a motivated and persistent programmer/designer. But the problem there is I'm a woman interested in making games about romance and puzzle-solving and most programmers seem to be men interested in making games about war. *shrug*
12/27/2006 (4:35 pm)
I think it would make the most sense for the programmer and the artist to sit down together and come up with a project they are both enthusiastic about rather than each have a pet project and swap work on them. But that said, it has been my experience that artists who have their own ideas make webcomics or short animated movies, they don't seem to be that interested in games. Many artists don't seem to care too much what they do art of, only whether they are getting paid for it.Me, I'm a game designer/writer/2D artist and have been wishing for quite a while to team up with a motivated and persistent programmer/designer. But the problem there is I'm a woman interested in making games about romance and puzzle-solving and most programmers seem to be men interested in making games about war. *shrug*
#11
It's interesting that you say that artists "don't seem to be that interested in games"...I think there are some artists here that would disagree, although I don't know how many. I think you're right in that a lot of artists, perhaps the majority, prefer to work on games for pay, as opposed to a lot of developers who are programmers working on their own projects for nothing.
But that's often prohibitive for the indie programmer/developer, since the artwork is often more than can be afforded. That's also why I'm interested in hearing if there is much of the opposite; artists with their own ideas willing to create their own games with the help of a programmer.
12/27/2006 (6:03 pm)
@Mare: I agree, if an artist and a programmer are already teamed together, then sitting down an coming up with a project they are both interested in is the best idea. I think the main problem I see is that many indie game developers start out on their own with their own idea for the Next Great Game, and it's all about trying to get others to join in on the project.It's interesting that you say that artists "don't seem to be that interested in games"...I think there are some artists here that would disagree, although I don't know how many. I think you're right in that a lot of artists, perhaps the majority, prefer to work on games for pay, as opposed to a lot of developers who are programmers working on their own projects for nothing.
But that's often prohibitive for the indie programmer/developer, since the artwork is often more than can be afforded. That's also why I'm interested in hearing if there is much of the opposite; artists with their own ideas willing to create their own games with the help of a programmer.
#12
12/27/2006 (6:57 pm)
Since I don't see a lot of artists replying here, you might try asking at deviantart.com in the projects forum or conceptart.org in the lounge, lots of artists hang out there.
#13
That's why when someone offers to pay an artist, it lets the the artist know that what his art is worth something. All a programmer has to do is "make it work." Not that that is easy by any stretch of the imagination, and obviously that is a very simplified statement. But the artist can't just make his artwork... work. It has to live up to someone else's standard, which is really hard. So yes, I actually believe it would be much easier, from that standpoint, for an artist to make a game. Because all of the inspiration and visions are in his own head. Once he takes all his creative ideas and turns them into reality, all he has to do is get a programmer to "make everything work."
Dream on. :P
I know I over simplified the job of the programmer, but I am just trying to make a point. In reality, art and programming can be all one job. An example being water. A lot of times it's the programmers who create that kind of "art." But projects that attempt things like that are usually well off the ground and on their way to success (hopefully). From what I understand, we're talking about trying to start projects.
Yeah, I'm an artist with ideas... How many programmers want to follow my inspirations? Someone? Anybody...?
Just kidding.
12/27/2006 (7:52 pm)
The problem with art vs. programming is that art isn't cut and dry. I consider myself an artist, but I don't know if I can produce game worthy art. I know I can produce art... But good is it? I don't know... That's only decided by those who look at it.That's why when someone offers to pay an artist, it lets the the artist know that what his art is worth something. All a programmer has to do is "make it work." Not that that is easy by any stretch of the imagination, and obviously that is a very simplified statement. But the artist can't just make his artwork... work. It has to live up to someone else's standard, which is really hard. So yes, I actually believe it would be much easier, from that standpoint, for an artist to make a game. Because all of the inspiration and visions are in his own head. Once he takes all his creative ideas and turns them into reality, all he has to do is get a programmer to "make everything work."
Dream on. :P
I know I over simplified the job of the programmer, but I am just trying to make a point. In reality, art and programming can be all one job. An example being water. A lot of times it's the programmers who create that kind of "art." But projects that attempt things like that are usually well off the ground and on their way to success (hopefully). From what I understand, we're talking about trying to start projects.
Yeah, I'm an artist with ideas... How many programmers want to follow my inspirations? Someone? Anybody...?
Just kidding.
#14
@Mare - Romance game? That sounds intriguing. I've wanted to do a game based on the illustration style of '50s romance comic books. Something standard fair that would be more an animated "choose your own adventure" style 2D game. What are you working on Mare? Care to share? You've piqued my curiosity :)
@All - I think the real issue from my perspective is hours in the day. Unless you're working on the same project or both your projects have same requirements, it's hard for a programmer or artist to share what time they have on more than their own project (did that make sense?).
I have my own project I'm working on right now and know a number of programmers who have offered to help me with some of the coding challenges. The problem is that they, like myself, have only so many hours a week they can put to their project. It's hard to split your limited time between two projects.
This is where I find myself now. I want to contribute what art I'm capable of to others but that means taking time away from my own project. And that's stalling here and there as it is :P
So for me it's not so much about being paid as it is finding time to contribute. Perhaps I'm just not very well organized... and there in lies a truth I suppose :)
Happy and Safe Holidays all :)
12/28/2006 (4:06 am)
Some interesting thoughts expressed here...@Mare - Romance game? That sounds intriguing. I've wanted to do a game based on the illustration style of '50s romance comic books. Something standard fair that would be more an animated "choose your own adventure" style 2D game. What are you working on Mare? Care to share? You've piqued my curiosity :)
@All - I think the real issue from my perspective is hours in the day. Unless you're working on the same project or both your projects have same requirements, it's hard for a programmer or artist to share what time they have on more than their own project (did that make sense?).
I have my own project I'm working on right now and know a number of programmers who have offered to help me with some of the coding challenges. The problem is that they, like myself, have only so many hours a week they can put to their project. It's hard to split your limited time between two projects.
This is where I find myself now. I want to contribute what art I'm capable of to others but that means taking time away from my own project. And that's stalling here and there as it is :P
So for me it's not so much about being paid as it is finding time to contribute. Perhaps I'm just not very well organized... and there in lies a truth I suppose :)
Happy and Safe Holidays all :)
#15
12/28/2006 (5:02 am)
@James - I like the manga/anime illustration style myself, but yes I am interested in interactive stories like choose your own adventures. I'm not currently working on anything, having given up on the possibility of creating a large RPG without a budget and without being a programmer myself. But I'm happy to show you the design document of the project I was working on for the last two years, Xenallure: A Tapestry of Hearts. www.gamedev.net/hosted/xenallure/documents/XenallureDesignDocV2.doc
#16
Funny, as part of my research, I was looking looking at Japanese AnimePlay interactive DVDs. I looked specifically at things like Amusement Park (man, these things are expensive!).
I'm disappointed to hear you've "...given up on the possibility of creating a large RPG...".
I'll have a look at your DD later today/tomorrow and get back to you - I have inlaws coming over and the Wife is going frantic getting the lunch ready. I have my "Honey Do" list and will have to start the cleaning process :D
Cheers
12/28/2006 (5:36 am)
@ Mare - just my "retro" mentality I suspect :)Funny, as part of my research, I was looking looking at Japanese AnimePlay interactive DVDs. I looked specifically at things like Amusement Park (man, these things are expensive!).
I'm disappointed to hear you've "...given up on the possibility of creating a large RPG...".
I'll have a look at your DD later today/tomorrow and get back to you - I have inlaws coming over and the Wife is going frantic getting the lunch ready. I have my "Honey Do" list and will have to start the cleaning process :D
Cheers
#17
I started in art with games and found my way to programming... honestly, because it's cheaper to program than to make art. Both time and money.
I have to side with... dum dum dum... neither artist nor programmer. I think that what indie games need is 1. game designers (game designers not game idea guy) 2. project manager. I think that both of those people shouldn't be doing anything else on the game.
After being around here for years and then getting into the industry professionally (if small time) and finally getting my own studio together and getting our first full game contract... I've realised that games need whole teams of people who can focus on just one job at a time... especially when it's work being done in your spare time.
I know one guy who is an amazing designer. Gifted. But he can't manage a project for shit. But I'd like to see a project manager design a game. Yeah right. How about a programmer design a game level. Nope. Or an artist code networking. Not gonna happen. But each can do their job and if they get the chance to focus on only their job... you can make an indie game.
So, I say, find a complete team to work on a game. This artist/programmer thing hasn't really worked.
12/28/2006 (6:01 am)
Which came first? The game programmer or the game artist? I think that we may have another chicken and egg with this one.I started in art with games and found my way to programming... honestly, because it's cheaper to program than to make art. Both time and money.
I have to side with... dum dum dum... neither artist nor programmer. I think that what indie games need is 1. game designers (game designers not game idea guy) 2. project manager. I think that both of those people shouldn't be doing anything else on the game.
After being around here for years and then getting into the industry professionally (if small time) and finally getting my own studio together and getting our first full game contract... I've realised that games need whole teams of people who can focus on just one job at a time... especially when it's work being done in your spare time.
I know one guy who is an amazing designer. Gifted. But he can't manage a project for shit. But I'd like to see a project manager design a game. Yeah right. How about a programmer design a game level. Nope. Or an artist code networking. Not gonna happen. But each can do their job and if they get the chance to focus on only their job... you can make an indie game.
So, I say, find a complete team to work on a game. This artist/programmer thing hasn't really worked.
#18
It does take a large team. I work and have worked in such structures for the last decade or more. Developing online games sometimes requires only one person to perform both art and code but a management team to help keep them on track. For larger more complex projects, the team must of course get bigger and the team becomes more specialized.
Here we are as Artists not necessarily attempting to do both jobs simply because of time. The learning curve to produce good art or good code requires that (depending on your ability) you focus on one thing to begin with. For myself, it's the art side of things... well, and game design too :)
Hmmm, I could go on but the Wife is wondering what I'm doing typing and not vacuuming :D
12/28/2006 (7:15 am)
Anton, I think the game designer came first to be honest :)It does take a large team. I work and have worked in such structures for the last decade or more. Developing online games sometimes requires only one person to perform both art and code but a management team to help keep them on track. For larger more complex projects, the team must of course get bigger and the team becomes more specialized.
Here we are as Artists not necessarily attempting to do both jobs simply because of time. The learning curve to produce good art or good code requires that (depending on your ability) you focus on one thing to begin with. For myself, it's the art side of things... well, and game design too :)
Hmmm, I could go on but the Wife is wondering what I'm doing typing and not vacuuming :D
#19
@ Anton - it's effectively impossible to recruit a full game production team of people with professional-level skills with no budget. Exactly how do you expect indie game designers to get a team like you describe?
12/28/2006 (7:18 am)
@ James - I like different historical periods, just not the 50s. :P ;) I'm a big fan of the 80s, and also of regency England and other periods known for elaborate showy clothes and a fondness for parties. (Randomly made me think of art nouveau, now there's a gorgeous art style...) Anyway yes, ren'ai aka dating sims are exactly the kind of thing I researched too. I'll look forward to hearing what you think of Xenallure, but no hurry. :) I was disappointed to give up on the idea myself, but when you have nothing playable after two years of hard work it's hard to deny the obvious any longer. Capitalism rules the world and people don't work reliably or at any useful speed unless you can pay them, and I can't afford to spend all my time working on something I love but which will never earn me any income because nobody wants to hire an unproven game designer/writer with an English degree. I'm truly sick of being a penniless artist and not even having the satisfaction of seeing my art get published and enjoyed by an audience. I'm not saying I'll never do game design again, but my current goal is to get a teaching certificate and a job as an english teacher that might actually allow me to afford my own apartment and car.@ Anton - it's effectively impossible to recruit a full game production team of people with professional-level skills with no budget. Exactly how do you expect indie game designers to get a team like you describe?
#20
It does depend on the game type of course. My game involves mostly cars and trucks, so I have not needed character models yet, and have bought in all I need from turbosquid and similar sites. Getting characters done when they're needed will be a matter of paying for a piece of work from an artist, not a matter of offering 50% ownership. Apart from that, the only custom 3D content are some accessories such as bumpers and ramplates which spice up the way the cars look.
This actually brings me to my main point.. be very careful about lightly taking on shared ownership. Unless you really know the other person's skills, personality, and committment, you're setting yourself up for disaster. Sure, all projects start off with great hopes and enthusiasm, but what happens 3 months down the line when it turns out one of the equal-share owners isn't pulling their weight, due to lack of skills or reduced enthusiasm and committment? Yet they still cling to their equal share? ... I'm speaking from experience here,having been in the IT game for a long time and having learned some hard lessons, particularly during the dotcom mania.
Whenever I see the job adverts on this site offering equal ownership of future earnings on a game whose development hasn't seriously started, the alarm bells ring real loud. I wonder what chance any game started off on this basis has of ever earning anything?
I just recently accepted someone as a part-owner of my game, a full 15 months after the serious work started (it's an MMO car combat game, somewhere between 50%-75% complete at this stage). This wasn't on the basis of cheap promises or specific skills, but on the basis of proven committment and the fact that his personality and drive were a perfect match for what I needed.
My advice to indie programmers serious about their project is to go it alone for as long as possible. I'm not sure that indie artists have this option however.
12/28/2006 (7:26 am)
There is a fundamental difference between the art content and the programming content of an indie game. The simple fact is, between the GG content packs and excellent sites like turbosquid, you will almost get away without custom-created artwork. But there's no way you'll get away without bespoke programming work, unless you want to make a basic FPS.It does depend on the game type of course. My game involves mostly cars and trucks, so I have not needed character models yet, and have bought in all I need from turbosquid and similar sites. Getting characters done when they're needed will be a matter of paying for a piece of work from an artist, not a matter of offering 50% ownership. Apart from that, the only custom 3D content are some accessories such as bumpers and ramplates which spice up the way the cars look.
This actually brings me to my main point.. be very careful about lightly taking on shared ownership. Unless you really know the other person's skills, personality, and committment, you're setting yourself up for disaster. Sure, all projects start off with great hopes and enthusiasm, but what happens 3 months down the line when it turns out one of the equal-share owners isn't pulling their weight, due to lack of skills or reduced enthusiasm and committment? Yet they still cling to their equal share? ... I'm speaking from experience here,having been in the IT game for a long time and having learned some hard lessons, particularly during the dotcom mania.
Whenever I see the job adverts on this site offering equal ownership of future earnings on a game whose development hasn't seriously started, the alarm bells ring real loud. I wonder what chance any game started off on this basis has of ever earning anything?
I just recently accepted someone as a part-owner of my game, a full 15 months after the serious work started (it's an MMO car combat game, somewhere between 50%-75% complete at this stage). This wasn't on the basis of cheap promises or specific skills, but on the basis of proven committment and the fact that his personality and drive were a perfect match for what I needed.
My advice to indie programmers serious about their project is to go it alone for as long as possible. I'm not sure that indie artists have this option however.
Torque 3D Owner James
None complete but one in the design stage and a few others in the "that might be a good game to develop" :)
I've been lucky in that as I've progressed, folks have step forward offering to help with coding and advice. In return I hope I can give something back to them as programmers looking for art assets.
Cheers!