Will TSE/TAT/TGEA ever be completed?
by Dark Tengu · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 11/29/2006 (6:01 pm) · 60 replies
I don't want to sound negative about TSE/TAT/TGEA...but honestly how long is it going to take? Anyone know if there are rumors in the wind about this coming out soon? It seems like the name changes a lot and that is about it.
I have recently moved on to the Lawmaker engine which is probably the most amazing indie engine I have happened to come across. Both TGEA and Lawmaker have features that I like and aspects that I dislike. I don't think it would be fair for me to rule out TGEA because it isn't finished yet. On the other hand, if it isn't going to be finished within the next 2-3 months, it is time to move on. For all I know GG will anounce another engine they are starting, yet TGEA goes on being in MS4, MS4.1, .... MS4.963.
I just don't understand what GG is doing. The Unreal team is smaller than the GG team (according to the Unreal 2004 collector's edition DVD), but yet has such a better rendering engine and an incomparably better asset/art pipeline. I will probably get hanged for that last comment.
I don't mean to grind on Torque too much, to be honest I think it has one of the best rendering engines available (probably the worst asset pipeline). I have brought many people to the engine and want to support the indie movement. I would just like to know what to expect with TSE/TAT/TGEA.
I have recently moved on to the Lawmaker engine which is probably the most amazing indie engine I have happened to come across. Both TGEA and Lawmaker have features that I like and aspects that I dislike. I don't think it would be fair for me to rule out TGEA because it isn't finished yet. On the other hand, if it isn't going to be finished within the next 2-3 months, it is time to move on. For all I know GG will anounce another engine they are starting, yet TGEA goes on being in MS4, MS4.1, .... MS4.963.
I just don't understand what GG is doing. The Unreal team is smaller than the GG team (according to the Unreal 2004 collector's edition DVD), but yet has such a better rendering engine and an incomparably better asset/art pipeline. I will probably get hanged for that last comment.
I don't mean to grind on Torque too much, to be honest I think it has one of the best rendering engines available (probably the worst asset pipeline). I have brought many people to the engine and want to support the indie movement. I would just like to know what to expect with TSE/TAT/TGEA.
Thread is locked
#2
11/29/2006 (6:19 pm)
This thread is stupid. I hope GG locks it.
#3
11/29/2006 (6:22 pm)
They will.
#4
11/29/2006 (6:37 pm)
It does not matter if it is stupid or how others may feel. Everyone has right to there views.
#6
11/29/2006 (6:59 pm)
You should always be polite and professional no matter what side of the fence you are on. 
#7
The Epic team is larger than the gamedev team. They need to have engine developers that are working on next-gen technology well after a freeze has gone into the engine for the game release deadline.
I like Lawmaker a lot, and it comes from a small team. There are a number of things I do not like about the engine, but most of them are not important to "teh bling!" engine buyers out there. I must say that they have, hands down, the best support team that I've met for a product, though. Well, Oracle has great on-site experts as long as you pay their way.
I can understand people being unhappy with TGEA's long and winding timeline. There are a lot of reasons for the different delays such as XBox and 360 versions of the engine. I cannot imagine any indie who has a console being unhappy with the thoughts of their next-gen game (and those who dream of TGEA's final release are most likely thinking about some semblance of next-gen game) without a complete rewrite. Of course, there would be portability problems (you can't avoid them). But it is better than rewriting the game. Working with NASA and the serious games element may seem a bit out of scope, but the idea of some of the best engineers getting their hands dirty and making recommendations (and paying GG which trickles down to continued development for the peons like me). Concentrating on a variety of markets such as the 2D casual game market targeted by TGB, contracting Synapse Gaming for lighting to jump up the lighting milestone significantly, developing Constructor as a consistent artflow product for level editing (and hopefully plug-in development for exporters like Dave Wyand's Lightwave export for other applications), contracting an aftflow extension for Max, and such. I can understand why people are unhappy. Mainly because most of the GG projects aren't integral to their project.
But, like Irrlicht, C4, or other source engines in-flux, the decision of developing with TGEA should have been taken into account for the devteam. A series of artists who have never installed a compiler should not use TGEA in its current state. It doesn't mean that TGEA can't use nice art. It simply means that the artists will be eternally frustrated. And they will be with a number of other indie engines. Unity, BeyondVirtual, and Lawmaker (to and extent) eases that. But there are also a lot of concessions that they must make. In BV, for example, the artist is given free reign to create artwork on their own terms, even if it drops the framerate to a zombie-crawl. Somewhere engine developers need to find a common ground, and regardless of that ground, an education campaign needs to be implemented to get programmers and artists on the same page. Right now, very few engines do that on an indie level.
TGEA has taken a long time. And it has been trying to hit a moving target. In 6 months, just where will the indie developer expectations be for a "next-gen" engine?
11/29/2006 (7:21 pm)
The Epic team is larger than the gamedev team. They need to have engine developers that are working on next-gen technology well after a freeze has gone into the engine for the game release deadline.
I like Lawmaker a lot, and it comes from a small team. There are a number of things I do not like about the engine, but most of them are not important to "teh bling!" engine buyers out there. I must say that they have, hands down, the best support team that I've met for a product, though. Well, Oracle has great on-site experts as long as you pay their way.
I can understand people being unhappy with TGEA's long and winding timeline. There are a lot of reasons for the different delays such as XBox and 360 versions of the engine. I cannot imagine any indie who has a console being unhappy with the thoughts of their next-gen game (and those who dream of TGEA's final release are most likely thinking about some semblance of next-gen game) without a complete rewrite. Of course, there would be portability problems (you can't avoid them). But it is better than rewriting the game. Working with NASA and the serious games element may seem a bit out of scope, but the idea of some of the best engineers getting their hands dirty and making recommendations (and paying GG which trickles down to continued development for the peons like me). Concentrating on a variety of markets such as the 2D casual game market targeted by TGB, contracting Synapse Gaming for lighting to jump up the lighting milestone significantly, developing Constructor as a consistent artflow product for level editing (and hopefully plug-in development for exporters like Dave Wyand's Lightwave export for other applications), contracting an aftflow extension for Max, and such. I can understand why people are unhappy. Mainly because most of the GG projects aren't integral to their project.
But, like Irrlicht, C4, or other source engines in-flux, the decision of developing with TGEA should have been taken into account for the devteam. A series of artists who have never installed a compiler should not use TGEA in its current state. It doesn't mean that TGEA can't use nice art. It simply means that the artists will be eternally frustrated. And they will be with a number of other indie engines. Unity, BeyondVirtual, and Lawmaker (to and extent) eases that. But there are also a lot of concessions that they must make. In BV, for example, the artist is given free reign to create artwork on their own terms, even if it drops the framerate to a zombie-crawl. Somewhere engine developers need to find a common ground, and regardless of that ground, an education campaign needs to be implemented to get programmers and artists on the same page. Right now, very few engines do that on an indie level.
TGEA has taken a long time. And it has been trying to hit a moving target. In 6 months, just where will the indie developer expectations be for a "next-gen" engine?
#8
11/29/2006 (7:26 pm)
I like that picture. I find it funny that Tim Sweeney is in the very back. lol!
#9
11/29/2006 (7:30 pm)
How many Unreal Engine 3 titles have shipped?
#10
1, I believe. Gears of War. I'm not sure what Fall of Man's engine is.
11/29/2006 (7:37 pm)
@Alan1, I believe. Gears of War. I'm not sure what Fall of Man's engine is.
#12
11/29/2006 (7:48 pm)
That's right. I didn't realize it was out. Damn. Another game I need to buy. Grrrr! 
#13
11/29/2006 (11:32 pm)
Honestly, I don't see all that much that is missing from TGEA right now from when it's going to be released, aside from Atlas, which needs work. The pipeline in particular is painful to work with. Other than that though, what's missing? 
#14
I guess it's due to the fact that Milkshape3D just has better support from indies than Max and Maya.
I know that GG doesn't officially support the art pipeline to Torque. Man. I wonder if it would be worth it to create an art pipeline to Torque from Max and Maya that works as easy as Milkshape3D and then sell it.
11/30/2006 (12:21 am)
You know what I don't get about the Max and Maya art pipeline? Milkshape3D has a PERFECT art pipeline.I guess it's due to the fact that Milkshape3D just has better support from indies than Max and Maya.
I know that GG doesn't officially support the art pipeline to Torque. Man. I wonder if it would be worth it to create an art pipeline to Torque from Max and Maya that works as easy as Milkshape3D and then sell it.
#15
11/30/2006 (9:36 am)
Why is this a stupid post? I think these are important issues and that they are worth discussing.
#16
I am sure that GG will get it done and it will be a top-notch product when it is done.
11/30/2006 (11:39 am)
He is an associate, he has to say that. I would agree that I could have certainly been more clear and to the point. On the other hand, I also wanted GG to know the frustrations some of us have. Yes, I know that is what I get for getting in on an EA. I just don't feel that it is ridiculous for someone who has paid money in good faith, for a release date.I am sure that GG will get it done and it will be a top-notch product when it is done.
#17
It's a valid question Marcus, though I think what you aren't doing is looking at things objectively. MS4 didn't come out all that long ago. Obviously that means progress is happening. Keep in my too that Tribes came out the same year Unreal did... and still Unreal engine is evolving (not all that differently than Torque)... except they have much more people on a per engine basis and much more income/resources.
11/30/2006 (12:04 pm)
I've never understood peoples complaints about the Max and Maya pipeline. I've found the Max pipeline (not even including the New Pro exporter) to be better than Unreal, in fact back in college the entire class I was in found the same thing. It's a valid question Marcus, though I think what you aren't doing is looking at things objectively. MS4 didn't come out all that long ago. Obviously that means progress is happening. Keep in my too that Tribes came out the same year Unreal did... and still Unreal engine is evolving (not all that differently than Torque)... except they have much more people on a per engine basis and much more income/resources.
#18
the art pipeline isn't bad it's confusing. and i've not heard of one single person who didn't say that they were pulling their hair out trying to figure it out. certainly, once you figure it out it's easy enough to do. it's just a pain to figure out.
11/30/2006 (12:43 pm)
@Matthew Langley,the art pipeline isn't bad it's confusing. and i've not heard of one single person who didn't say that they were pulling their hair out trying to figure it out. certainly, once you figure it out it's easy enough to do. it's just a pain to figure out.
#19
It's designed specifically for a company that has to produce content for a game to be published, and gives that company maximum flexibility for filling the roles of art asset production in any configuration they wish.
11/30/2006 (12:48 pm)
Joe M. has discussed this many times, but the art pipeline is optimized for production work, not "learning an art pipeline".It's designed specifically for a company that has to produce content for a game to be published, and gives that company maximum flexibility for filling the roles of art asset production in any configuration they wish.
Torque Owner UrbanLegendGames
However, comparing Unreal or even Lawmaker to Torque is a tad ridiculous. Torque is dirt cheap.
I would still take the lower cost, better community, and raw potential of Torque over Lawmaker any day. Retail games HAVE actually been released using this engine.
That being said... I would actually appreciate some reliable release schedule for TSE. That would be nice.
Anyone have any good info on that front?