Convoluted Art pipeline?
by Stabbing Pixies · in Technical Issues · 11/26/2006 (3:07 am) · 11 replies
Hi there,
I am looking at Torque to build a proof-of-concept around a game design doc.
When I see reviews of Torque, a lot of debate seems to go on about how importing art assets into Torque is a bit of a pain for artists, and can be a frustrating process (The gamedev forums in particular have lots to say, though very little in actual specifics).
I take this to mean that it is not a simple process to bring in homemade 3d assets to the engine?
I have 3 artists that I dont want to scare off with complex import issues : I just want them to make great art.
Before we commit to torque, can someone please tell me what is so difficult? We have not yet purchased TGE, have limited scripting skills, and would like to start building 3d models in Gamespace for terrain maps made in Torque.
Is there a better tool? Is there a better way?
What has YOUR team done to overcome this challenge?
I'm not asking to troll, but am sincerely interested.
Finally: Will "Constructor" fix this problem? (If there is indeed a problem).
Regards,
Mike in Norway.
I am looking at Torque to build a proof-of-concept around a game design doc.
When I see reviews of Torque, a lot of debate seems to go on about how importing art assets into Torque is a bit of a pain for artists, and can be a frustrating process (The gamedev forums in particular have lots to say, though very little in actual specifics).
I take this to mean that it is not a simple process to bring in homemade 3d assets to the engine?
I have 3 artists that I dont want to scare off with complex import issues : I just want them to make great art.
Before we commit to torque, can someone please tell me what is so difficult? We have not yet purchased TGE, have limited scripting skills, and would like to start building 3d models in Gamespace for terrain maps made in Torque.
Is there a better tool? Is there a better way?
What has YOUR team done to overcome this challenge?
I'm not asking to troll, but am sincerely interested.
Finally: Will "Constructor" fix this problem? (If there is indeed a problem).
Regards,
Mike in Norway.
About the author
#2
EDIT:
Note that while the level editing tools are nice, I would still recommend a brush-based editor like Quark or 3D Game Studio for your brush editing. It will force you into better habits for creating correct CSG geometry rather than forcing you to change your GameSpace workflow.
11/26/2006 (8:13 am)
The pipeline from GameSpace is rather straight-forward. In fact, the level editor stuff works rather well, too. I really do not like the GS interface, but I do like the tools. Do a search for GameSpace and you should find a number of topics. There are a lot of topics on the DTS exporter on the GameSpace forums as well (or there used to be; I haven't been there in a while).EDIT:
Note that while the level editing tools are nice, I would still recommend a brush-based editor like Quark or 3D Game Studio for your brush editing. It will force you into better habits for creating correct CSG geometry rather than forcing you to change your GameSpace workflow.
#3
While Constructor promises to become the premier CSG editor for interiors it isn't ready and given the track record of GG products you're better off not waiting for it to be released. So that leaves you with only a few alternatives; Quark, WorldCraft, 3D World and DeleD. I can't speak for WorldCraft, 3D World or DeleD as I use Quark myself though I've heard 3D World has its own share of problems to contend with. Quark is a difficult program to use only because its interface is a bit arcane plus Quark demands you build in a very particular way otherwise you are likely to end up with the dreaded lightleaks from hell. Quark is not the kind of program that a naive artist can just jump into and produce a great model with. Given that DeleD or WorldCraft may be your best bets but be warned... Constructor is the only editor that supports smoothing groups for curved surfaces. Which means your artists will need to think about how their models will be assembled with regard to columns, arches, hemispheres, etc. That is to say these will end up being faceted and ugly.
The flip side of CSG structures (DIF interiors) is DTS shapes. Torque supports a number of different types of DTS shapes, namely player models, several types of vehicles and static shapes (which can alternately have ambient animations). Each type requires its own node structure for export which will require some reading through TDN to get information on. The problem here though is not ALL of the export requirements nor ALL of the building requirements for DTS shapes are documented. Which means when you suddenly hit a blank wall expect to be posting questions on the forums.
In particular DTS shapes have problems with sorting transparent geometry. There are certain specific ways to build the geometry, not only within the model but also its place within the node structure, that are required to resolve these problems. There are other anomalies associated with transparent textures that aren't covered in the documentation. Such as white borders that appear around the alpha masks if the texture isn't setup properly.
In short there are problems with the Torque art pipeline, as there are bound to be with other engines. So don't make the mistake thinking you'll be able to purchase Torque then dive right in to start making your great game. You should continue looking and asking about these problems before you make your decision to buy. I would do the same also for the other engines you're considering. Make a list of pros and cons for each engine and then make an informed decision on which engine to buy.
11/26/2006 (10:56 am)
In all fairness Thak isn't being completely accurate. There ARE problems with the pipeline that glossing over here in the forums is a big disservice to new users. Here's my list;While Constructor promises to become the premier CSG editor for interiors it isn't ready and given the track record of GG products you're better off not waiting for it to be released. So that leaves you with only a few alternatives; Quark, WorldCraft, 3D World and DeleD. I can't speak for WorldCraft, 3D World or DeleD as I use Quark myself though I've heard 3D World has its own share of problems to contend with. Quark is a difficult program to use only because its interface is a bit arcane plus Quark demands you build in a very particular way otherwise you are likely to end up with the dreaded lightleaks from hell. Quark is not the kind of program that a naive artist can just jump into and produce a great model with. Given that DeleD or WorldCraft may be your best bets but be warned... Constructor is the only editor that supports smoothing groups for curved surfaces. Which means your artists will need to think about how their models will be assembled with regard to columns, arches, hemispheres, etc. That is to say these will end up being faceted and ugly.
The flip side of CSG structures (DIF interiors) is DTS shapes. Torque supports a number of different types of DTS shapes, namely player models, several types of vehicles and static shapes (which can alternately have ambient animations). Each type requires its own node structure for export which will require some reading through TDN to get information on. The problem here though is not ALL of the export requirements nor ALL of the building requirements for DTS shapes are documented. Which means when you suddenly hit a blank wall expect to be posting questions on the forums.
In particular DTS shapes have problems with sorting transparent geometry. There are certain specific ways to build the geometry, not only within the model but also its place within the node structure, that are required to resolve these problems. There are other anomalies associated with transparent textures that aren't covered in the documentation. Such as white borders that appear around the alpha masks if the texture isn't setup properly.
In short there are problems with the Torque art pipeline, as there are bound to be with other engines. So don't make the mistake thinking you'll be able to purchase Torque then dive right in to start making your great game. You should continue looking and asking about these problems before you make your decision to buy. I would do the same also for the other engines you're considering. Make a list of pros and cons for each engine and then make an informed decision on which engine to buy.
#4
11/26/2006 (6:07 pm)
Great write-up, N R Bharathae. Especially on the transparency issues with DTS models. The most obvious place that this occurs is in the creation of trees. Especially if you use plug-ins or conversion tools to craft your trees. Great clarification.
#5
True: the Documentation could use improvement and as far as transparent textures go you are right.
But modelling, rigging and animating goes Max->TGE and thats solid. (again there are starting difficulties on nodesetup etc. but after the initial weirdness its good to go.)
If I have any qualms its the bloody 256px terrain texture resolution. *pokes the terrain with a sharp stick* grow already!
11/27/2006 (8:38 am)
Hehe N R Bharathae, yeah I admit I am a TGE fanboy, 0:) but because of the way how easy it was to get art ingame from 3ds Max. True: the Documentation could use improvement and as far as transparent textures go you are right.
But modelling, rigging and animating goes Max->TGE and thats solid. (again there are starting difficulties on nodesetup etc. but after the initial weirdness its good to go.)
If I have any qualms its the bloody 256px terrain texture resolution. *pokes the terrain with a sharp stick* grow already!
#6
Torque does have some annoying problems and really I posted to this thread because I believe in truth in advertising. Some of the issues discussed here have been a real pain in my ass since I've been using Torque (a few are still unresolved for me). But to be honest I continue to use Torque because I know its the best of what's out there that indies can afford... and yeah the whole 256 terrain tile is a real thorn.
I don't want to be all doom and gloom though. There have been fantastic strides this past year that have smoothed out the pipeline. Dark Industries' exporter is the most impressive effort IMHO.
I have a concern though. I see these other engines that are coming out competing with Torque's price range. Feature-wise they're better and more complete. I can't say anything about stability as I haven't used any of them. But my point is GG really needs to get on the ball and resolve these lingering, petty problems before newer engines overtake them.
Garage Games seems to have finally hit a marketing stride with TGB and the upcoming TorqueX. I think its great and I'm happy for them but they should use that new success to hire more help to complete TSE, Constructor and get TGE up to speed so it can compete with a fast growing market for indie game engines.
11/27/2006 (10:10 am)
I don't know why everyone uses my full name, you guys can just call me N.R. Torque does have some annoying problems and really I posted to this thread because I believe in truth in advertising. Some of the issues discussed here have been a real pain in my ass since I've been using Torque (a few are still unresolved for me). But to be honest I continue to use Torque because I know its the best of what's out there that indies can afford... and yeah the whole 256 terrain tile is a real thorn.
I don't want to be all doom and gloom though. There have been fantastic strides this past year that have smoothed out the pipeline. Dark Industries' exporter is the most impressive effort IMHO.
I have a concern though. I see these other engines that are coming out competing with Torque's price range. Feature-wise they're better and more complete. I can't say anything about stability as I haven't used any of them. But my point is GG really needs to get on the ball and resolve these lingering, petty problems before newer engines overtake them.
Garage Games seems to have finally hit a marketing stride with TGB and the upcoming TorqueX. I think its great and I'm happy for them but they should use that new success to hire more help to complete TSE, Constructor and get TGE up to speed so it can compete with a fast growing market for indie game engines.
#7
11/27/2006 (11:00 am)
Quote:I don't know why everyone uses my full name, you guys can just call me N.R.Because I can cut and paste it. But I'll keep it in mind for when I'm not c-&-p'ing.
#8
Can I ask: Is the documentation that is subscriber only a great deal better than what we find here? I mean: When we buy the product we have to take the chance that a lot of our questions and challenges are answered in the "sealed off" part of the GG forum: Readmes and wizards and walkthrus etc.
Or will we still be stuck figuring a lot of stuff out ourselves? Is the documentaion still wanting?
As I said we are weak on programming/scripting skills and really just want to be able to import our cheap and cheerful 3d assets into a little demo world without anything crashing. Do we need a programmer before we continue? Are programming skills needed even for the art pipeline?
Thanks again for your time.
M.
11/28/2006 (12:47 pm)
Thanks for the responses - I guess it sounds no better or worse than a lot of other solutions we have been looking at: There is no substitute for experience with the tool itself - which is why its very handy to hear from you guys.Can I ask: Is the documentation that is subscriber only a great deal better than what we find here? I mean: When we buy the product we have to take the chance that a lot of our questions and challenges are answered in the "sealed off" part of the GG forum: Readmes and wizards and walkthrus etc.
Or will we still be stuck figuring a lot of stuff out ourselves? Is the documentaion still wanting?
As I said we are weak on programming/scripting skills and really just want to be able to import our cheap and cheerful 3d assets into a little demo world without anything crashing. Do we need a programmer before we continue? Are programming skills needed even for the art pipeline?
Thanks again for your time.
M.
#9
Im a lightwave user, and the exporter is about as straight froward as it can get, the max one is slightly complicated, thoe i haven't used it.
11/28/2006 (2:14 pm)
Speaking as an artiest, its the best pipeline i have used. And i have used allot of engines.Im a lightwave user, and the exporter is about as straight froward as it can get, the max one is slightly complicated, thoe i haven't used it.
#10
I try not to 'sugar-coat' anything...it's a fairly common practice around some parts; to lightly gloss over exactly what needs to be done and in what manner...
Oh, btw, I'm an 'Artist'...;). And I think you'll begin to hate actionThreads and playThreads very quickly...blends are pretty cool.
The more I think of it, yes; almost immediately you will have to begin scripting a new TSSConstructor script for any shape you wish to load animation sequences into. And just about any animation you want to see running at runtime will need to be scripted to the object. Get ready...grab ahold of some sort of IDE or text editor! Good luck and have fun!
11/28/2006 (2:35 pm)
@Mike: Quote:Or will we still be stuck figuring a lot of stuff out ourselves? Is the documentaion still wanting?= Yes, if you want your shapes and entities doing anything more than what you get in the Demo, and I mean anything other than the Demo. If you want new weapons, how to switch them, get different sounds/graphixs, new pickups, new anything... I enjoy the Torque engine; as it's 'fairly' easy to use. One thing I discovered though, was that if you do not have a dedicated scripter/coder, things will barely crawl along and frustration will set in quickly unless you've MODed a few engines or enjoy engine 'poking' and 'searchin' the site for information pertinent feature. I feel the bottom line is that you will indeed HAVE to start rummaging around with scripting/code at some point.
I try not to 'sugar-coat' anything...it's a fairly common practice around some parts; to lightly gloss over exactly what needs to be done and in what manner...
Oh, btw, I'm an 'Artist'...;). And I think you'll begin to hate actionThreads and playThreads very quickly...blends are pretty cool.
The more I think of it, yes; almost immediately you will have to begin scripting a new TSSConstructor script for any shape you wish to load animation sequences into. And just about any animation you want to see running at runtime will need to be scripted to the object. Get ready...grab ahold of some sort of IDE or text editor! Good luck and have fun!
#11
When I first started using Torque I did have to learn alot of common practice stuff on my own. But since then GG has setup TDN as a repository for such things. So yes, documentation has greatly improved and continues to get better. Ultimately your fallback is to post a question which usually gets a quick response. Some developers will often offer to look at your source file and make the correction for you if you can't get it the first around.
As far as gaining treasured tool secrets as part of your cost for the engine... I wish that were the case but its not. Developing with Torque is pretty much a blend of reading TDN articles, experimenting and posting questions on the forums. But like you said that's really standard fare for using all game engines.
11/28/2006 (2:35 pm)
You shouldn't need a programmer except in cases where you want to tweek scripts. Even then scripting is pretty easy to understand so you can do it yourself. When I first started using Torque I did have to learn alot of common practice stuff on my own. But since then GG has setup TDN as a repository for such things. So yes, documentation has greatly improved and continues to get better. Ultimately your fallback is to post a question which usually gets a quick response. Some developers will often offer to look at your source file and make the correction for you if you can't get it the first around.
As far as gaining treasured tool secrets as part of your cost for the engine... I wish that were the case but its not. Developing with Torque is pretty much a blend of reading TDN articles, experimenting and posting questions on the forums. But like you said that's really standard fare for using all game engines.
Torque Owner Thak
The Artpipeline is straight forward and no trouble at all. Theres a few important aspects you need to be aware of when modelling to make it smooth as silk. (Size, Nodes, Facing) But once you understand that theres no trouble at all. Cant speak for any other exporters but the MAX version is doing a great job. Frankly I have no experience with Gamespace but I reckon the exporter works nearly the same.
A feature comparison chart here, but maybe only viewable with a TGE License: tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/DTS/FeatureChart
Constructor is a Brushbased modeller for interiors (.dif files).
Quark and DeleD do a good Job on interior modelling and exporting as well so again not much of a problem even with Constructor not yet ready.
Max/Blender/Maya/Gamespace etc are used to model everything except large buildings and interiors, stuff that needs collision, to walk on etc. Thats done with Quark/DeleD and finally Constructor.
Cheers
Marc