UT2004 or Torque Game Engine?
by Grant Fowler · in Torque Game Engine · 11/22/2006 (7:38 pm) · 65 replies
Unreal Tournament 2004 Vs Torque Game Engine.
I havn't stopped thinking about my Torque games
project. Basically I have got a team together of just under 10 students with skills in
programming and art creation but I'm having second thoughts about Torque as our choice of
Engine.
You see, the 'experienced' ones like a guy who runs our Unreal Tournament 2004 modding
class recommends that game engine over Torque for us, not yet experienced game
developers.
I know Torque is also primarily, a fps oriented engine and the game my team and I will be
implementing is an RPG / (Action Adventure) (a micro version of Oblivion is one way I
would describe it). I look at Torque and I believe if my team and I think through the
best way to design our game we will come up against fewer brick walls and tall buildings
to scale during the development process. [I'm adopting a prototype based approach, where
by we will have a working game at the end of each cycle. Each cycle we will design and
implement a new feature until we have our "FUN" game.]
My UT2004 modding teacher says that it would be a lot quicker to create a game in UT2004
and that Torque has more of a linear and steeper learning curve. Not to mention I've
received some comments from other students about how annoying or hard to use the Torque
script was. (one team of students spent 2 years on a project like battlefield and finding
it to fall apart - possibly due to the team but maybe due to the complexity of the engine)
Would using UT2004 with just its script, level editor (no source code) be more suited to
us making an RPG. Or can you give me reasons why combating an engine like Torque (prob
more suited to 'experienced' developers) might give us a better outcome.
The one good point I have received about Torque is that you can (more easily) have a
commercial product at the end unlike UT2004.
Please share your reasons for choosing Torque over Unreal Tournament
I havn't stopped thinking about my Torque games
project. Basically I have got a team together of just under 10 students with skills in
programming and art creation but I'm having second thoughts about Torque as our choice of
Engine.
You see, the 'experienced' ones like a guy who runs our Unreal Tournament 2004 modding
class recommends that game engine over Torque for us, not yet experienced game
developers.
I know Torque is also primarily, a fps oriented engine and the game my team and I will be
implementing is an RPG / (Action Adventure) (a micro version of Oblivion is one way I
would describe it). I look at Torque and I believe if my team and I think through the
best way to design our game we will come up against fewer brick walls and tall buildings
to scale during the development process. [I'm adopting a prototype based approach, where
by we will have a working game at the end of each cycle. Each cycle we will design and
implement a new feature until we have our "FUN" game.]
My UT2004 modding teacher says that it would be a lot quicker to create a game in UT2004
and that Torque has more of a linear and steeper learning curve. Not to mention I've
received some comments from other students about how annoying or hard to use the Torque
script was. (one team of students spent 2 years on a project like battlefield and finding
it to fall apart - possibly due to the team but maybe due to the complexity of the engine)
Would using UT2004 with just its script, level editor (no source code) be more suited to
us making an RPG. Or can you give me reasons why combating an engine like Torque (prob
more suited to 'experienced' developers) might give us a better outcome.
The one good point I have received about Torque is that you can (more easily) have a
commercial product at the end unlike UT2004.
Please share your reasons for choosing Torque over Unreal Tournament
Thread is locked
#23
Yes they did succeed; though one in a million chances isn't exactly what I'd boast about and recommend to others seeking advice.
The reality you fail to accept is that "C++, math and graphics programming" is required to make a game in any engine. If you make a mod you won't need to know a whole lot (which has been pointed out), but making a mod is not making a game. You need to accept the differences. If by chance you make an awesome mod and do manage to get the hundreds of thousands of dollars of funding (which is highly unlikely, not impossible just very unlikely) and purchase Unreal licensing then you will still need to modify the "C++, math and graphics programming."
You really should research this up. Commercial games done in Unreal still have to modify the source code quite a bit. Either way if you make a game you need to learn these things. Making a mod will not score you a game. It's a reality not something meant to rub in your face. I'd recommend stop giving people false advice since you're not going to help them.
Now David on the other hand has made some great points why you could consider other engines than Torque. Though in the end if you want to make a game (especially if you want to retain the IP and rights to that game) then your best off working with an engine like Torque.
btw you mentioned about publishing to console platforms with Torque would cost an extra license. Well have you even read the Unreal license? You have to pay more per platform you publish to. Wake up to the reality of the industry and please do research before posting such things. Also it would be appreciated if you format your posts better, it is extremely hard to read them the way they're posted, no offense just don't expect me (or others) to spend time responding if it is a huge pain to even read.
11/24/2006 (1:38 pm)
Quote:And as you say, counterstrike. Counterstrike has being sold for years, and was started as a mod...
Yes they did succeed; though one in a million chances isn't exactly what I'd boast about and recommend to others seeking advice.
Quote:Torque is not totally bad, but you need to know a whole bunch about C++, math and graphics programming.
The reality you fail to accept is that "C++, math and graphics programming" is required to make a game in any engine. If you make a mod you won't need to know a whole lot (which has been pointed out), but making a mod is not making a game. You need to accept the differences. If by chance you make an awesome mod and do manage to get the hundreds of thousands of dollars of funding (which is highly unlikely, not impossible just very unlikely) and purchase Unreal licensing then you will still need to modify the "C++, math and graphics programming."
You really should research this up. Commercial games done in Unreal still have to modify the source code quite a bit. Either way if you make a game you need to learn these things. Making a mod will not score you a game. It's a reality not something meant to rub in your face. I'd recommend stop giving people false advice since you're not going to help them.
Now David on the other hand has made some great points why you could consider other engines than Torque. Though in the end if you want to make a game (especially if you want to retain the IP and rights to that game) then your best off working with an engine like Torque.
btw you mentioned about publishing to console platforms with Torque would cost an extra license. Well have you even read the Unreal license? You have to pay more per platform you publish to. Wake up to the reality of the industry and please do research before posting such things. Also it would be appreciated if you format your posts better, it is extremely hard to read them the way they're posted, no offense just don't expect me (or others) to spend time responding if it is a huge pain to even read.
#24
@berserk
"whole bunch about C++, math and graphics programming"
I've had experience in c++. I wouldn't be attempting this unless I did. I have implemented a 3d engine but not a game engine. This wasn't overly sophisticated and was programmed in vb. I have been reading up on vector maths, matricies and mathematics/logic. I may not be up to industry standard but im constantly learning, and would learn what it takes to create a game in torque or any other engine for that matter.
@matt
yes i agree with the question. You do have to ask yourself, do I really want a mod or a game? The answer for me is that I do want a game, but I want to learn something at the same time thus a mod could be a better option. I think my game concept would only work as a game. I'll prototype my game in torque, see how it goes then decide.
11/24/2006 (1:53 pm)
Lol @berserk
"whole bunch about C++, math and graphics programming"
I've had experience in c++. I wouldn't be attempting this unless I did. I have implemented a 3d engine but not a game engine. This wasn't overly sophisticated and was programmed in vb. I have been reading up on vector maths, matricies and mathematics/logic. I may not be up to industry standard but im constantly learning, and would learn what it takes to create a game in torque or any other engine for that matter.
@matt
yes i agree with the question. You do have to ask yourself, do I really want a mod or a game? The answer for me is that I do want a game, but I want to learn something at the same time thus a mod could be a better option. I think my game concept would only work as a game. I'll prototype my game in torque, see how it goes then decide.
#25
However, if you fully intend to produce something that you want to use later - I always recommend one of the many commercial lowprice game engines out there.
11/24/2006 (2:17 pm)
I agree if you are looking to learn fast, a mod might be a good option.However, if you fully intend to produce something that you want to use later - I always recommend one of the many commercial lowprice game engines out there.
#26
It's very similar to quite common way of thinking "Ok, I am one person team, I need engine with glow, per pixel lighting, super duper physics and all bells and whistles latest games on market do not yet have but I am wiling to pay no more then 100$". C'mon... to make super graphic you need not only killer engine and great programmers- you need also brilliant artists and huge amount of time/ money. Cost of third party software (engine and tools) is in case of such a project by no means largest part of dev costs.
If you can't afford first league team that can really use all modern features in effective way why to bother with the best engine in first place ? Spend money on team- it will give much better results then pumping it all into soft
That's my personal opinion... and that's why I prefer to work with TSE as a prototyping tool.
11/24/2006 (2:23 pm)
@ Berserk- you're probably right although my friends with similar twist (old style games) are making big $ on such a games moved on small platforms- mobiles etc. That's another deal- finding a niche. Quite a separate topic in itself and not a small one considering number of people here, on forum that start with their first game ever, no funds, no experience, not much time and know how and what will it be ? Yep, you are right- most complicated type of gaming project one can possibly think of, involving everything between coding and sociology- MMORPG. Now- how realistic is that ? It's very similar to quite common way of thinking "Ok, I am one person team, I need engine with glow, per pixel lighting, super duper physics and all bells and whistles latest games on market do not yet have but I am wiling to pay no more then 100$". C'mon... to make super graphic you need not only killer engine and great programmers- you need also brilliant artists and huge amount of time/ money. Cost of third party software (engine and tools) is in case of such a project by no means largest part of dev costs.
If you can't afford first league team that can really use all modern features in effective way why to bother with the best engine in first place ? Spend money on team- it will give much better results then pumping it all into soft
That's my personal opinion... and that's why I prefer to work with TSE as a prototyping tool.
#27
I don't understand what you are asking? I am suggesting getting TGEA for a 2 year commitment to making a single player RPG game. I suggest using ArcaneFX for spell casting effects. I'm not sure how that amounts to 3 engines for one game?
Most of the time... I'd say that if you are coming off of a mod and want to make a full game that you should forget about it. Modding is a million times easier than making a whole game. But the exception to that for me is a single player RPG with Torque. Or Torque Advanced since they want to make a top quality graphics game. I am saying this coming from the perspective of having prototyped a single player RPG with Torque and Archane FX. It's works. It's great. It wasn't even as hard as modding Unreal. Torque with ArcaneFX is a natural fit for a single player RPG. That's what I think.
11/24/2006 (5:10 pm)
@BerserkI don't understand what you are asking? I am suggesting getting TGEA for a 2 year commitment to making a single player RPG game. I suggest using ArcaneFX for spell casting effects. I'm not sure how that amounts to 3 engines for one game?
Most of the time... I'd say that if you are coming off of a mod and want to make a full game that you should forget about it. Modding is a million times easier than making a whole game. But the exception to that for me is a single player RPG with Torque. Or Torque Advanced since they want to make a top quality graphics game. I am saying this coming from the perspective of having prototyped a single player RPG with Torque and Archane FX. It's works. It's great. It wasn't even as hard as modding Unreal. Torque with ArcaneFX is a natural fit for a single player RPG. That's what I think.
#29
Stop generalizing by your own shortcomings. Torque is not suitable for everyone, but saying it is not suitable to make something from scratch is silly.
11/25/2006 (3:06 am)
Quote:
A game is something you play with. Torque is not suitable to make something from scratch, because lacks of instructions on how to do and however a mod is playable.
Stop generalizing by your own shortcomings. Torque is not suitable for everyone, but saying it is not suitable to make something from scratch is silly.
#30
Ok. I understand better what you mean. I couldn't understand what you were trying to say before.
Torque has short comings... compared to the big license solutions such as Unreal that cost 1/4 to 1/3 of a million. But the savings are more than worth the short comings if you are actually trying to make a commercial game as an indie. I think that a serious developer expects to need to find out what the short comings are before they begin development so they can plan to develop what ever extra features they find are missing from Torque.
I am the first to say that I've been disappointed by a missing feature in Torque. I can spend $55 and buy Unreal Tournament 2004 and fully mod the game with the tools provided. Then I spend $100 - $300 to license Torque and I don't get all the same tools. What's up with that? Oh. Yeah. UT2004 mods have to be given out for free. I can make and sell games with Torque. To get to do that with UT2004... I have to pay $250,000. Ahhhhhhhhh.
I think it's the modder mindset that everything is free after you spend that $55 to buy the game whether it be for Half Life 2 or Oblivion or UT2004. But it's not the same ballgame once you start talking about making and selling a game. Then you get to start dealing with paying for everything you use. Making a game for only $55 that you can sell is rediculous. You are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars at least to make a game that will sell.
11/25/2006 (3:33 am)
@BerserkOk. I understand better what you mean. I couldn't understand what you were trying to say before.
Torque has short comings... compared to the big license solutions such as Unreal that cost 1/4 to 1/3 of a million. But the savings are more than worth the short comings if you are actually trying to make a commercial game as an indie. I think that a serious developer expects to need to find out what the short comings are before they begin development so they can plan to develop what ever extra features they find are missing from Torque.
I am the first to say that I've been disappointed by a missing feature in Torque. I can spend $55 and buy Unreal Tournament 2004 and fully mod the game with the tools provided. Then I spend $100 - $300 to license Torque and I don't get all the same tools. What's up with that? Oh. Yeah. UT2004 mods have to be given out for free. I can make and sell games with Torque. To get to do that with UT2004... I have to pay $250,000. Ahhhhhhhhh.
I think it's the modder mindset that everything is free after you spend that $55 to buy the game whether it be for Half Life 2 or Oblivion or UT2004. But it's not the same ballgame once you start talking about making and selling a game. Then you get to start dealing with paying for everything you use. Making a game for only $55 that you can sell is rediculous. You are going to spend tens of thousands of dollars at least to make a game that will sell.
#31
To start with, I didn't feel very compelling to do so, but now that I do need new rendering techniques and make optimizations for MY game (not UT2004 or Tribes II) then it's worth gold!
There are a few features I am missing, especially in TGEA - but I still value it far higher than some mod IF I'm going to eventually ship it.
11/25/2006 (3:37 am)
Exactly. And you can not head into the source, which is a big point (at least for me).To start with, I didn't feel very compelling to do so, but now that I do need new rendering techniques and make optimizations for MY game (not UT2004 or Tribes II) then it's worth gold!
There are a few features I am missing, especially in TGEA - but I still value it far higher than some mod IF I'm going to eventually ship it.
#32
Exactly. It's a rediculous idea to think that while making a commercial game for the first time that you are going to get a publisher to put up 1/4 million to license Unreal for you. It's a fantasy. That's why the Torque engine is about getting to make your dream come true because until it came out... engine's like Unreal were impossible to get you hands on for making commercial games. The truth is... you can in fact add what ever feature you want to Torque and in the end it will still cost you less than 1/4 million to license Unreal. It's not even a contest.
The biggest thing to know about making games is that it's not going to be free. It's going to cost you. A lot. A hell of a lot. But that's what it takes. Those companies who pay 1/4 of a million to license Unreal are sweating it a hell of a lot more than indies who in the end have paid $25,000-$75,000 to develop a small indie game. I'll take not having my first game have to make 1/4 million just to pay back the cost of the Unreal License over having to add features to Torque anyday.
11/25/2006 (3:49 am)
@Stefan LundmarkExactly. It's a rediculous idea to think that while making a commercial game for the first time that you are going to get a publisher to put up 1/4 million to license Unreal for you. It's a fantasy. That's why the Torque engine is about getting to make your dream come true because until it came out... engine's like Unreal were impossible to get you hands on for making commercial games. The truth is... you can in fact add what ever feature you want to Torque and in the end it will still cost you less than 1/4 million to license Unreal. It's not even a contest.
The biggest thing to know about making games is that it's not going to be free. It's going to cost you. A lot. A hell of a lot. But that's what it takes. Those companies who pay 1/4 of a million to license Unreal are sweating it a hell of a lot more than indies who in the end have paid $25,000-$75,000 to develop a small indie game. I'll take not having my first game have to make 1/4 million just to pay back the cost of the Unreal License over having to add features to Torque anyday.
#34
I can't understand most of what you just wrote. It's kind of hard to read. Not that I mind that. I am terrible at writing comments that make little sense to readers. :P
I am the last person who needs to be asked if I religiously support Torque. Ask GG if I do. I got an email a while back asking me to leave the community because I was not supportive enough in some comments I made. Believe me when I say that I am only writing my honest opinion. I get nothing out of promoting Torque other than the knowledge that I might be assisting someone who is trying to make a decision about what tech to use to make a game.
Is Torque the best choice for making a single player RPG with a first time development team on an indie budget? In my opinion, YES! In my experience with prototyping a single player RPG with Torque I found it to be perfect suited for the game. I won't say that about just any game type. But a single player RPG is a perfect match for Torque. As is a mutliplayer turnbased RPG like Final Fantasy 10 or LOTR The Third Age. Also a Battlefield type outdoor online multiplayer FPS. And a snowboarding game.
I am saying my opinion from working on games like these using Torque. I am also pretty tight with my money and time. I want the most bang for my buck and efforts.
I agree that the argument about getting financed for 1/4 million for the Unreal Engine is not Black and White. It's just rediculous to begin with. There is not argument. Anyone who hasn't made a game before that tries to get the Unreal engine for their first for 1/4 million is an total idiot. TOTAL IDIOT. There is not question of bravery or dreaming a dream. I called it fantasy because it's not a dream... it's a delusion. And who is the world would pay 1/4 million for Unreal Tech unless they have millions more to take advantage of it. Unreal games don't cost 1/4 million to make. They cost millions to make. You don't just need to get the engine, you have to make a game worth having the engine. It's just plain stupid all around to even consider. Only someone who has no clue at all would think it makes any sense. It's like thinking you'll get married and have sex 3 times a day for the rest of your life.
That's why... for single player FPS games I suggest licensing the Jupiter engine. It's about $50,000 for a team license. It has all the tools just like Unreal. It has documentation. It's more suited for FPS games than Torque in my opinion because Torque is more for outdoor only FPS games. If you can't afford $50,000 for a team license, I believe it's $15,000 per seat. If you can't afford that... you can't afford to make a single player FPS game.
11/25/2006 (7:07 am)
@BerserkI can't understand most of what you just wrote. It's kind of hard to read. Not that I mind that. I am terrible at writing comments that make little sense to readers. :P
I am the last person who needs to be asked if I religiously support Torque. Ask GG if I do. I got an email a while back asking me to leave the community because I was not supportive enough in some comments I made. Believe me when I say that I am only writing my honest opinion. I get nothing out of promoting Torque other than the knowledge that I might be assisting someone who is trying to make a decision about what tech to use to make a game.
Is Torque the best choice for making a single player RPG with a first time development team on an indie budget? In my opinion, YES! In my experience with prototyping a single player RPG with Torque I found it to be perfect suited for the game. I won't say that about just any game type. But a single player RPG is a perfect match for Torque. As is a mutliplayer turnbased RPG like Final Fantasy 10 or LOTR The Third Age. Also a Battlefield type outdoor online multiplayer FPS. And a snowboarding game.
I am saying my opinion from working on games like these using Torque. I am also pretty tight with my money and time. I want the most bang for my buck and efforts.
I agree that the argument about getting financed for 1/4 million for the Unreal Engine is not Black and White. It's just rediculous to begin with. There is not argument. Anyone who hasn't made a game before that tries to get the Unreal engine for their first for 1/4 million is an total idiot. TOTAL IDIOT. There is not question of bravery or dreaming a dream. I called it fantasy because it's not a dream... it's a delusion. And who is the world would pay 1/4 million for Unreal Tech unless they have millions more to take advantage of it. Unreal games don't cost 1/4 million to make. They cost millions to make. You don't just need to get the engine, you have to make a game worth having the engine. It's just plain stupid all around to even consider. Only someone who has no clue at all would think it makes any sense. It's like thinking you'll get married and have sex 3 times a day for the rest of your life.
That's why... for single player FPS games I suggest licensing the Jupiter engine. It's about $50,000 for a team license. It has all the tools just like Unreal. It has documentation. It's more suited for FPS games than Torque in my opinion because Torque is more for outdoor only FPS games. If you can't afford $50,000 for a team license, I believe it's $15,000 per seat. If you can't afford that... you can't afford to make a single player FPS game.
#36
I hear ya. Took me 2 years, as well.
You always end up yelling about this, which pretty much confirms that you are out of arguments. Would you had taken some time to study the people you troll, you would not had made these statements. I'm not a fanboy nor do I 'love' Torque (I concentrate on loving people instead) and I'm pretty sure Anton is objective too. I just happen to disagree with you on this one, and as soon as someone does ( :D ) you start throwing the fanboy crap around and putting words into others mouthes.
I'm done here.
Have fun.
11/25/2006 (8:14 am)
Quote:
Torque is actually suitable for something start from scratch, but after at least a year studying the engine.
I hear ya. Took me 2 years, as well.
Quote:
*bla bla bla* religious fanatiscm. *bla bla* do you love Torque?
You always end up yelling about this, which pretty much confirms that you are out of arguments. Would you had taken some time to study the people you troll, you would not had made these statements. I'm not a fanboy nor do I 'love' Torque (I concentrate on loving people instead) and I'm pretty sure Anton is objective too. I just happen to disagree with you on this one, and as soon as someone does ( :D ) you start throwing the fanboy crap around and putting words into others mouthes.
I'm done here.
Have fun.
#37
Is it the best engine ever ? Hell, surely it is not. Is it easiest to use ? No, it is not as well. It's mid range with all advantages and disadvantages that come with that. If that suits your needs- it's fine. If it does not- that's also fine- we are talking about 100$ worth game engine , not life and death matter. Single seat 3d studio MAX license alone costs about 40 or 60 times that and it's just a tool to work with.
What I honestly do not understand is entering software' forum just to try to convince everybody working with it that it sucks. You do not like it ? Man, drop it then already, throw it away, get rid of it, format your hard drive and the sooner you will do it the better to you- apparently you've grown up beyond limits set by this software and you need something else. Sooner you will make that move the better your progress will be. Working with something you hate rarely leads to good results.
You will not go to hell, you will not burn on stake or get decapitated for rejecting Torque and choosing something else. What's the point in announcing to people that most probably have different skills, goals and preferences that this or that piece of soft is useless piece of crap to you and does not suit your needs ? They are not you and their requirements are not yours.
11/25/2006 (8:26 am)
Well- if you start discussion with "I know the truth and I can't be convinced to change my mind" attitude then how can you be surprised when others take similar approach ? Torque (both TSE and TGE) is what it is- not expensive and quite easy to start with engine. You can quite easily make a simple shooter or racing game on it without messing with source code too much (most certainly not rewriting "half of the graphics and physics code"). Is it the best engine ever ? Hell, surely it is not. Is it easiest to use ? No, it is not as well. It's mid range with all advantages and disadvantages that come with that. If that suits your needs- it's fine. If it does not- that's also fine- we are talking about 100$ worth game engine , not life and death matter. Single seat 3d studio MAX license alone costs about 40 or 60 times that and it's just a tool to work with.
What I honestly do not understand is entering software' forum just to try to convince everybody working with it that it sucks. You do not like it ? Man, drop it then already, throw it away, get rid of it, format your hard drive and the sooner you will do it the better to you- apparently you've grown up beyond limits set by this software and you need something else. Sooner you will make that move the better your progress will be. Working with something you hate rarely leads to good results.
You will not go to hell, you will not burn on stake or get decapitated for rejecting Torque and choosing something else. What's the point in announcing to people that most probably have different skills, goals and preferences that this or that piece of soft is useless piece of crap to you and does not suit your needs ? They are not you and their requirements are not yours.
#38
I'm not quite sure what this is in reference to. IT seemed pretty straight-forward. If you are miserable with Torque's documentation and workflow, use an engine that you are comfortable with and can get funding to use. I'm not saying that you think "Torque sucks" or something. Just that if you find other engines easier and more facilitating to getting your game done, then why not use them? It doesn't make sense not to unless you are being forced to use something you find incompatible with your workflow. If you are a contract employee for a company using Torque, then that would be the boat you are in. If you're an independent developer, then I'm not sure why you couldn't move to an engine which suits you and your game. That's what does not make sense to me.
As to users supporting Torque, it could be that many of the people who are looking at this are also looking to make games commercially that they can make money from rather than having their tonsils removed through their rectum by a publisher, having their studio absorbed or closed, and having to start a new one with a bit of resume fodder and hard feelings towards the large-scale game publishing industry. It is not hard to find industry profesionals who have had their teams disbanded, their projects cancelled after being picked up by a publisher, and who ended up with cherry resume pieces that NDA's would not let them discuss as they looked for new jobs (if a non-competition clause allowed them to try to get another job in the same industry in the next two years).
The outlook for indies using and engine like Unreal is bleak if they want to release a game commercially. Especially since there is not a game licensed for Unreal/2/3 which has not made some major source changes for the specific games gameplay. Read a couple of post-mortems and you will see some of the challenges that Unreal developers face on the source side. Plus, since the engine has been around for a while and licensed to a number of studios, there are a lot of developers out there who will share their experiences. They probably won't tell you any nitty-gritty details since they are under NDA's, but they can give a lot of engine development advice and generalities about features that they added, workflow additions, tool creation for their art and programming team, etc. The Thief developers and Splinter Cell developers had some great comments on adding shadows that affected gameplay, cloth dynamics, etc. All of which required some rather hefty source-code changes. Sure, you could fake it in scripting. You can do that now with triggers in Torque. You can do it with UnrealScript. But to do it at the level they needed it, they had to change the C++ codebase. Of course, they had a rather large budget and a source license to Unreal anyway (as well as crack programming teams).
If the original question had been "what engine, feature-per-feature, has the fastest workflow?" I would say Unreal. If the original question had been "what engine, feature-per-feature, has the most bling featureset?" I would say Unreal. And I already answered the question of using it for a time-limited academic project with an emphatic "USE UNREAL". But when it shifted to for an eventual commercial title, which engine should I use? I, and others, had to answer with a realistic answer. Sure, he could use Unreal and prototype his game and hopefully get a publisher to pick it up and pay for his license and team, but he would have absolutely no leverage in the deal-making process which means that 99.9% of the time he would get screwed--and that is if it got picked up at all or, more likely, the project missed its commercial window of bargain bin fodder among price-dropped high-budget software with more bling for the end-consumer dollar. Or he could use a free engine (or and inexpensive one like Torque or C4 or WhateverEngine) to prototype it and get it to a state where it could be picked up. For example, Narbacular Drop, which was a team project for Fullsail, I believe, which was picked up by Valve and will be released as Portal using the Source engine. So, yes, it can happen as long as you make sure you know the consequences.
But there is a difference between knowing the consequences and blind hope. One team (or a handful among tens or hundreds of thousands) being successful is a great success story. I love success stories. Carmack's garage, Robert Rodriguez shooting solo, the CounterStrike Team, NinjaBee on the 360, kids stuck in wells being found in barns safe and sound, etc. But you also have to have a realistic outlook. Most games will not make it to the 360. Most people shooting Rodriguez style will never be shown at Sundance. Even picking up Carmack's old house and working out of the garage probably won't net you a residual Ferrari. Sometimes children do fall in wells, and sometimes they do not end up safe and sound. Making a mod in the stew of a million other mod projects probably won't net you a Counterstrike.
But on some points, you're right. There's not just Torque and Unreal. But this topic began as a comparison of two engines, and I cannot in good faith recommend any indie developer who wants to make a game from scratch for commercial gain to use Unreal. I can easily refer them to a number of other engines depending on their experience and target audience. Looking for targeting the Mac market specifically? Unity rocks. Artist looking for a great art workflow from Lightwave and are interested only in Windows distribution? Check out BeyondVirtual. Want an all-in-one Windows-centric inexpensive suite with a lot of tutorial documentation and an active community? Look at A6. Want an emerging engine with some nice tools and one of the best support staff's I've run into? Check out Lawmaker. Want next-gen bling with a clean code API for fastidious programmers? Check into C4. Are you a 3D studio Max artist with some programming prowess? Look at Blitz3D. It's Max pipeline is extraordinary. DarkBasic may require you to write your engine from scratch, but they have made adding PhysX and AI support very easy, even if you have to search for optimization techniques for the rendering pipeline. I can recommend people to go to Irrlicht, Quake/2/3 (especially Quake 3, even if they can't figure out how to start a blank template and follow all of the various directions for setting up the demo version to get the compiled engine to work).
I'm not talking about the mod/game issue which seems to have arisen, which is not really an issue since most mod teams are extremely aware of the near impossibility (or massive improbability if you prefer) of it ever becoming a commercial success. They aren't modding to make money any more than the guy who wrote Irrlicht expects to be paid for the fruits of his labor.
@Grant Fowler
I haven't played with 2k4 mods for a while, so it took me a bit of searching through the various RPG weapon mods out there to find one. UTRPG. I haven't seen anything with a click-and-pick type interface, though. It probably would not be that difficult (one of my favorite GUI mods was Tetris), but I don't know. It's been a while since I even looked at UnrealScript. Mostly when I realized that for commercial indie ventures it was futile. There were a couple of mods which were closer to Daggerfall. There was also one which used the third-person camera, but it ended up looking more like most third-person adventure games than a RPG. But the fun of it was that they tried and largely succeeded. Just like the Starcraft RPG crew (though the pages and pages of save point data triggers was annoying to work with!).
EDIT: Spelling
11/25/2006 (9:08 am)
@BezerkQuote:About your last statement, I already answered in my preceeding post. Sometimes people is so predictable...
I'm not quite sure what this is in reference to. IT seemed pretty straight-forward. If you are miserable with Torque's documentation and workflow, use an engine that you are comfortable with and can get funding to use. I'm not saying that you think "Torque sucks" or something. Just that if you find other engines easier and more facilitating to getting your game done, then why not use them? It doesn't make sense not to unless you are being forced to use something you find incompatible with your workflow. If you are a contract employee for a company using Torque, then that would be the boat you are in. If you're an independent developer, then I'm not sure why you couldn't move to an engine which suits you and your game. That's what does not make sense to me.
Quote:LawMaker offers free fully functional trial with lua documentation.Neither one of us, as per the NDA, are at liberty to discuss the documentation layer available for Lawmaker.
As to users supporting Torque, it could be that many of the people who are looking at this are also looking to make games commercially that they can make money from rather than having their tonsils removed through their rectum by a publisher, having their studio absorbed or closed, and having to start a new one with a bit of resume fodder and hard feelings towards the large-scale game publishing industry. It is not hard to find industry profesionals who have had their teams disbanded, their projects cancelled after being picked up by a publisher, and who ended up with cherry resume pieces that NDA's would not let them discuss as they looked for new jobs (if a non-competition clause allowed them to try to get another job in the same industry in the next two years).
The outlook for indies using and engine like Unreal is bleak if they want to release a game commercially. Especially since there is not a game licensed for Unreal/2/3 which has not made some major source changes for the specific games gameplay. Read a couple of post-mortems and you will see some of the challenges that Unreal developers face on the source side. Plus, since the engine has been around for a while and licensed to a number of studios, there are a lot of developers out there who will share their experiences. They probably won't tell you any nitty-gritty details since they are under NDA's, but they can give a lot of engine development advice and generalities about features that they added, workflow additions, tool creation for their art and programming team, etc. The Thief developers and Splinter Cell developers had some great comments on adding shadows that affected gameplay, cloth dynamics, etc. All of which required some rather hefty source-code changes. Sure, you could fake it in scripting. You can do that now with triggers in Torque. You can do it with UnrealScript. But to do it at the level they needed it, they had to change the C++ codebase. Of course, they had a rather large budget and a source license to Unreal anyway (as well as crack programming teams).
If the original question had been "what engine, feature-per-feature, has the fastest workflow?" I would say Unreal. If the original question had been "what engine, feature-per-feature, has the most bling featureset?" I would say Unreal. And I already answered the question of using it for a time-limited academic project with an emphatic "USE UNREAL". But when it shifted to for an eventual commercial title, which engine should I use? I, and others, had to answer with a realistic answer. Sure, he could use Unreal and prototype his game and hopefully get a publisher to pick it up and pay for his license and team, but he would have absolutely no leverage in the deal-making process which means that 99.9% of the time he would get screwed--and that is if it got picked up at all or, more likely, the project missed its commercial window of bargain bin fodder among price-dropped high-budget software with more bling for the end-consumer dollar. Or he could use a free engine (or and inexpensive one like Torque or C4 or WhateverEngine) to prototype it and get it to a state where it could be picked up. For example, Narbacular Drop, which was a team project for Fullsail, I believe, which was picked up by Valve and will be released as Portal using the Source engine. So, yes, it can happen as long as you make sure you know the consequences.
But there is a difference between knowing the consequences and blind hope. One team (or a handful among tens or hundreds of thousands) being successful is a great success story. I love success stories. Carmack's garage, Robert Rodriguez shooting solo, the CounterStrike Team, NinjaBee on the 360, kids stuck in wells being found in barns safe and sound, etc. But you also have to have a realistic outlook. Most games will not make it to the 360. Most people shooting Rodriguez style will never be shown at Sundance. Even picking up Carmack's old house and working out of the garage probably won't net you a residual Ferrari. Sometimes children do fall in wells, and sometimes they do not end up safe and sound. Making a mod in the stew of a million other mod projects probably won't net you a Counterstrike.
But on some points, you're right. There's not just Torque and Unreal. But this topic began as a comparison of two engines, and I cannot in good faith recommend any indie developer who wants to make a game from scratch for commercial gain to use Unreal. I can easily refer them to a number of other engines depending on their experience and target audience. Looking for targeting the Mac market specifically? Unity rocks. Artist looking for a great art workflow from Lightwave and are interested only in Windows distribution? Check out BeyondVirtual. Want an all-in-one Windows-centric inexpensive suite with a lot of tutorial documentation and an active community? Look at A6. Want an emerging engine with some nice tools and one of the best support staff's I've run into? Check out Lawmaker. Want next-gen bling with a clean code API for fastidious programmers? Check into C4. Are you a 3D studio Max artist with some programming prowess? Look at Blitz3D. It's Max pipeline is extraordinary. DarkBasic may require you to write your engine from scratch, but they have made adding PhysX and AI support very easy, even if you have to search for optimization techniques for the rendering pipeline. I can recommend people to go to Irrlicht, Quake/2/3 (especially Quake 3, even if they can't figure out how to start a blank template and follow all of the various directions for setting up the demo version to get the compiled engine to work).
I'm not talking about the mod/game issue which seems to have arisen, which is not really an issue since most mod teams are extremely aware of the near impossibility (or massive improbability if you prefer) of it ever becoming a commercial success. They aren't modding to make money any more than the guy who wrote Irrlicht expects to be paid for the fruits of his labor.
@Grant Fowler
I haven't played with 2k4 mods for a while, so it took me a bit of searching through the various RPG weapon mods out there to find one. UTRPG. I haven't seen anything with a click-and-pick type interface, though. It probably would not be that difficult (one of my favorite GUI mods was Tetris), but I don't know. It's been a while since I even looked at UnrealScript. Mostly when I realized that for commercial indie ventures it was futile. There were a couple of mods which were closer to Daggerfall. There was also one which used the third-person camera, but it ended up looking more like most third-person adventure games than a RPG. But the fun of it was that they tried and largely succeeded. Just like the Starcraft RPG crew (though the pages and pages of save point data triggers was annoying to work with!).
EDIT: Spelling
#39
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous statement I've seen in a while. First off, TSE (TGEA) supports HLSL. Adding various shaders to your project is a very simple task. Supporting an actual shader language and material system is far superior to doing something like adding CG support to every class. Relying on the resources of others is not going to help you in the long run. I've seen and built tons of look alike games using the resources at hand.
In any engine you will be required to program. In any game you will be required to program. Most of the math I've faced has been pretty basic. (Algebra and Geometry level math)
Great graphics? Please enlighten me. However, I agree it's a shame that no new AI has been added. While the work to get decent AI in is fairly minimal, I think there should be some default system with basic features.
I'm sorry that this has come across as rude, I just found these posts very entertaining.
Thanks,
Matt Vitelli
11/25/2006 (11:05 am)
Berserk, I'd seriously recommend previewing your posts before posting. They're impossible to read and very hard on the eyes. Quote:So are you, Anton, suggesting to buy not just TGE, not only TSE Early Adopter later on, but even a plug-in?
Why should anybody do triple the expense? I would have expected a suggestion like "buy TGE, then put in DRL + Water + Bumps + Lighting Kit + PhysX in TGE + Hand to hand combat and you're on" rather than "buy actually 3 engines for making maybe one game"
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous statement I've seen in a while. First off, TSE (TGEA) supports HLSL. Adding various shaders to your project is a very simple task. Supporting an actual shader language and material system is far superior to doing something like adding CG support to every class. Relying on the resources of others is not going to help you in the long run. I've seen and built tons of look alike games using the resources at hand.
Quote:Torque is not totally bad, but you need to know a whole bunch about C++, math and graphics programming.
In any engine you will be required to program. In any game you will be required to program. Most of the math I've faced has been pretty basic. (Algebra and Geometry level math)
Quote:Plus, Unreal is certainly more appetible because it has great graphics, better tools, better physics and better AI right out of the box.
Great graphics? Please enlighten me. However, I agree it's a shame that no new AI has been added. While the work to get decent AI in is fairly minimal, I think there should be some default system with basic features.
I'm sorry that this has come across as rude, I just found these posts very entertaining.
Thanks,
Matt Vitelli
Torque Owner Anton Bursch
You should ABSOLUTELY license TGEA for your single player RPG. Forget about anything else you've heard about Torque vs Unreal vs FarCry. I've been using Torque for a while now and I've prototyped a single player RPG and it was EASY EASY EASY. Far easier than in Unreal, in my opinion. I've been modding Unreal from the begining.
I suggest checking out Arcane FX. Get in on their beta. Email and let them know what you are trying to do and I'm sure they'll send you a demo to evaluate and you can see for yourself. I honestly cannot think of a better game to make with TGEA than a single player RPG. Your biggest hurdles are not the coding, but the art pipeline. But that's going to be remedied in the very very very near future.
For an FPS game... I'd use the Jupiter Engine from NOLF and FEAR. Very inexpensive to license if you landed a full game publishing deal and very inexpensive considering what you get from it compared to what you would have to code for an FPS game from scratch. BUT, for single player RPG, TGEA is a natural choice for startup studios. In my opinion.