Engine Capabilities (details)
by Chris Helms · in Torque Game Engine · 04/26/2001 (12:37 am) · 28 replies
I am just wondering if there is a detailed list of the engine's capabilities and features, such as bitmap loading(does it support TGA loading and transparency?), available mapping techniques, and that sort of thing.
I am very interested in the specifications so I know if it will support some of our models and scenes with transparency, and other details...
I'd also like to know what exactly will be supported in 3D Studio MAX exporting (lights, texturing coordinates and poly-coloring, cameras, particle systems, that sort of thing).
I am very interested in the specifications so I know if it will support some of our models and scenes with transparency, and other details...
I'd also like to know what exactly will be supported in 3D Studio MAX exporting (lights, texturing coordinates and poly-coloring, cameras, particle systems, that sort of thing).
About the author
#2
Supports MS BMP, JPG, and PNG.
The exporter is shape based not scene based, so basically mesh + materials + animation. Transparency is just a material attribute.
--Rick
04/26/2001 (9:15 am)
Thanks for posting the links Brian.Supports MS BMP, JPG, and PNG.
The exporter is shape based not scene based, so basically mesh + materials + animation. Transparency is just a material attribute.
--Rick
#3
I need to know what types, if it does.
Most engines, even old ones, at least support transparency to the level of 100% transparent or 100% opaque(no transparency maps).
That isn't exactly state of the art...
Object based? So that means you export each object individually? If so, that really is a big problem with big scenes, especially with multiple dynamic objects that need to be put together right....
None of those links helped(already had read them).
I'd like to know what I am buying in a little more detail than this.
The transparency maps *WILL* be needed majorly for multiple types of games.
I'd like to know if it supports them and what type of format they should be in.
If it doesn't support TGA files then I have to convert everything.
If it doesn't support transparency maps, then you can either say hello to mopre polygons or forget certain special effects that most games have completely...
04/26/2001 (5:51 pm)
So it doesn't support transpareny maps?I need to know what types, if it does.
Most engines, even old ones, at least support transparency to the level of 100% transparent or 100% opaque(no transparency maps).
That isn't exactly state of the art...
Object based? So that means you export each object individually? If so, that really is a big problem with big scenes, especially with multiple dynamic objects that need to be put together right....
None of those links helped(already had read them).
I'd like to know what I am buying in a little more detail than this.
The transparency maps *WILL* be needed majorly for multiple types of games.
I'd like to know if it supports them and what type of format they should be in.
If it doesn't support TGA files then I have to convert everything.
If it doesn't support transparency maps, then you can either say hello to mopre polygons or forget certain special effects that most games have completely...
#5
- Tribes supports transparency maps (it's standard OpenGL).
- TGA is extremely easy to read. You would have no problem writing a TGA loader for V12.
- Scenes must be exported as separate objects. This is true for every 3D game enine I'm aware of. Just part of the biz.
- As for putting together dynamic objects, could you give an example of a complex dynamic object(s)? I'm pretty sure that once they are imported into V12, it would be fairly easy to script them in the manner you desire.
--Bryan
04/26/2001 (7:50 pm)
Chris,- Tribes supports transparency maps (it's standard OpenGL).
- TGA is extremely easy to read. You would have no problem writing a TGA loader for V12.
- Scenes must be exported as separate objects. This is true for every 3D game enine I'm aware of. Just part of the biz.
- As for putting together dynamic objects, could you give an example of a complex dynamic object(s)? I'm pretty sure that once they are imported into V12, it would be fairly easy to script them in the manner you desire.
--Bryan
#6
I know it is standard, but my point isn't just the maps, its more things, details, in general, compatiblities with programming, modeling, everything.
>- Scenes must be exported as separate objects. This is true for every 3D game enine I'm aware of. Just part of the biz.
I have seen easy to use engines, many are too easy to use for their own good, not giving enough power, and aren't state of the art, but, still...
It isn't hard to make dynamic objects accesable from one scene file.... If they don't spend the time adding this feature it will cost hundreds of hours in game development times, costing GG more money than it does for them not creating the feature in the first place.
I have to get going.
What if you were making a really complex racing game that was extremely large, you'd have to re-arrange everything, it'd be a pain and take forever. It'd be much easier to just be able to model everything in a modeler like max, and then export it and acess the objects through their names.
There could be an extreme number of these objects that need to be dynamic in these types of scenes, as well as most scenes in many game genres.
I'd buy Tribes2, but I am trying to save for a new computer, and other things, and probably wouldn't enjoy it very much if I got it.
If I buy a game any time soon it probably wouldn't be like that...
04/27/2001 (6:16 am)
>Tribes supports transparency maps (it's standard OpenGL).I know it is standard, but my point isn't just the maps, its more things, details, in general, compatiblities with programming, modeling, everything.
>- Scenes must be exported as separate objects. This is true for every 3D game enine I'm aware of. Just part of the biz.
I have seen easy to use engines, many are too easy to use for their own good, not giving enough power, and aren't state of the art, but, still...
It isn't hard to make dynamic objects accesable from one scene file.... If they don't spend the time adding this feature it will cost hundreds of hours in game development times, costing GG more money than it does for them not creating the feature in the first place.
I have to get going.
What if you were making a really complex racing game that was extremely large, you'd have to re-arrange everything, it'd be a pain and take forever. It'd be much easier to just be able to model everything in a modeler like max, and then export it and acess the objects through their names.
There could be an extreme number of these objects that need to be dynamic in these types of scenes, as well as most scenes in many game genres.
I'd buy Tribes2, but I am trying to save for a new computer, and other things, and probably wouldn't enjoy it very much if I got it.
If I buy a game any time soon it probably wouldn't be like that...
#7
You, sir, are an enigma...........
If you can't shell out $50.00 for the game, I seriously question your credibility.
04/27/2001 (6:24 am)
?????You, sir, are an enigma...........
If you can't shell out $50.00 for the game, I seriously question your credibility.
#8
04/27/2001 (8:12 am)
Remember, not all indie developers have funding ;)
#9
And to stay on topic, the best way to determine the engine's capability would be to buy the game, play the game, and play with the editor. If the above info and faq links aren't good enough then having the game in hand certainly should be.
Even indie's should show some initiative........
04/27/2001 (8:23 am)
But $50.00? Even students can afford this. And to stay on topic, the best way to determine the engine's capability would be to buy the game, play the game, and play with the editor. If the above info and faq links aren't good enough then having the game in hand certainly should be.
Even indie's should show some initiative........
#10
$50 is food for a month.
It's not about initiative, the fact that he's here shows initiative. It's about resources.
PS: Yes this is off topic, sorry...
04/27/2001 (8:58 am)
Not true... Some of us are living on Top Ramen and Macaroni & Cheese. :-)$50 is food for a month.
It's not about initiative, the fact that he's here shows initiative. It's about resources.
PS: Yes this is off topic, sorry...
#11
I guess I'm just dense, but why would you want to use Max to setup some complex scene anyway? V12 has a built in scene editor. You model each different object using Max (several different car models, some signposts, some bushes, road debris, etc..) export each as a model file. Load them into V12, duplicate where necessary, place into scene. Done.
What does Max give you? (ok to be fair, I don't own Max and have never used it) I see it as a modeler vs designer issue. The modelers should use a modeling package with modeling features, the designers should use the game engine.
*shrugs*
Why not just write a Max loader for your project? There's several free projects with source which do this already.
Transparency: What specific feature are you attempting to use? If transparency maps aren't the issue, what is?
--Bryan
04/27/2001 (12:12 pm)
Chris,I guess I'm just dense, but why would you want to use Max to setup some complex scene anyway? V12 has a built in scene editor. You model each different object using Max (several different car models, some signposts, some bushes, road debris, etc..) export each as a model file. Load them into V12, duplicate where necessary, place into scene. Done.
What does Max give you? (ok to be fair, I don't own Max and have never used it) I see it as a modeler vs designer issue. The modelers should use a modeling package with modeling features, the designers should use the game engine.
*shrugs*
Why not just write a Max loader for your project? There's several free projects with source which do this already.
Transparency: What specific feature are you attempting to use? If transparency maps aren't the issue, what is?
--Bryan
#12
04/27/2001 (1:57 pm)
Is the engine OpenGL only ? Also would MS take an Xbox game that was OGL only, or do we need a Dx8 port to pass muster ? 
#13
04/27/2001 (2:22 pm)
It has OGL and DX8 rendering...do none of you read the engine specifications or keep up on Tribes 2?
#14
Thanks !
04/27/2001 (2:44 pm)
Nope, I missed the DX8 part but I see it in the Tech info now. I am glad you were bored enough to respond though. Thanks !
#15
if you want to see what the engine is capable of, stop spamming the forums with pointless questions and check out any of the HUNDREDS of tribes 2 editing sites on the net.
(hint, hint::use google)
If you can't afford 50$ for the game, then how can you be so picky regarding features? I can understand being a starving indie developer, but research is research. ;}
but whatever, back on topic.
--------------
To answer the questions regarding building your scenes...
1) Irregardless of what kind of game you are building, you will build the individual objects with max or whatever modeler that you are planning on using, and then import the objects into the tribes scene editor. This allows you to scale, move and otherwise setup your 'scenes' right from IN the game engine.
2) To say that you 'HAVE' to use max to layout your scenes is naive. Sure, some game engines use high-end modeling programs to layout their levels, but I can guarantee that it takes them ALOT longer to design their levels than the average game development team.
Another thing with Max (or any other program that costs such a ridiculous amount of money), is that you will be Hard-pressed to find developers/co-conspirators that a) have access to such a high-end program, b) are experienced enough in the program to be able to do anything useful with it, and c) are willing to work for free/cheap. People that know Max well usually get paid well to use it ;}
3) by being able to SEE what the map looks like in the engine AS YOU PIECE IT TOGETHER is the most useful tool that you could ever have as a game developer. To spend years working in a program like Max to layout the designs, only to import the maps into the game engine and see what they REALLY look like is pointless.
no matter what engine you are using, there are limitations to it. To expect that the engine will be able to do anything and everything is naive and setting yourself up for failure. ANY successful game on the market today (including tribes 2) is as good as they are because the designers realize what they can and can't do with the engine and design the gameplay and environments to suit.
If you are shopping for a new engine to build a game with, it only makes sense to try out ANY demo/sample/games that were built with the engine to see what/how/if your game ideas are feasible in the engine.
Either way, the V12 engine is miles above ANYTHING that you will be able to program/develop/purchase for the equivalent price. I feel confident saying that without even having played tribes 2 myself...
cheers,
Hiro
Reality Factory hacker
http://www.genesis3d.com/~rfactory
04/27/2001 (2:50 pm)
seriously people.if you want to see what the engine is capable of, stop spamming the forums with pointless questions and check out any of the HUNDREDS of tribes 2 editing sites on the net.
(hint, hint::use google)
If you can't afford 50$ for the game, then how can you be so picky regarding features? I can understand being a starving indie developer, but research is research. ;}
but whatever, back on topic.
--------------
To answer the questions regarding building your scenes...
1) Irregardless of what kind of game you are building, you will build the individual objects with max or whatever modeler that you are planning on using, and then import the objects into the tribes scene editor. This allows you to scale, move and otherwise setup your 'scenes' right from IN the game engine.
2) To say that you 'HAVE' to use max to layout your scenes is naive. Sure, some game engines use high-end modeling programs to layout their levels, but I can guarantee that it takes them ALOT longer to design their levels than the average game development team.
Another thing with Max (or any other program that costs such a ridiculous amount of money), is that you will be Hard-pressed to find developers/co-conspirators that a) have access to such a high-end program, b) are experienced enough in the program to be able to do anything useful with it, and c) are willing to work for free/cheap. People that know Max well usually get paid well to use it ;}
3) by being able to SEE what the map looks like in the engine AS YOU PIECE IT TOGETHER is the most useful tool that you could ever have as a game developer. To spend years working in a program like Max to layout the designs, only to import the maps into the game engine and see what they REALLY look like is pointless.
no matter what engine you are using, there are limitations to it. To expect that the engine will be able to do anything and everything is naive and setting yourself up for failure. ANY successful game on the market today (including tribes 2) is as good as they are because the designers realize what they can and can't do with the engine and design the gameplay and environments to suit.
If you are shopping for a new engine to build a game with, it only makes sense to try out ANY demo/sample/games that were built with the engine to see what/how/if your game ideas are feasible in the engine.
Either way, the V12 engine is miles above ANYTHING that you will be able to program/develop/purchase for the equivalent price. I feel confident saying that without even having played tribes 2 myself...
cheers,
Hiro
Reality Factory hacker
http://www.genesis3d.com/~rfactory
#16
*sigh* I'm actually VERY irritated that everybody uses 3DMax for everything. WTF is wrong with Lightwave??? But noooo . . .
However, the future is in high-end programs like LW and 3DMax, or at least level editors that have the charicteristics of 3D modelling programs. I remember the first time -- about 2 years ago -- that I started in on level editing with Worldcraft and then the much-maligned Dark Engine of Thief 2. My jaw dropped when I realized that no matter the program, the truth of the matter was that all level editing programs to date use boolean modelling for everything! I just couldn't believe it.
In as little as a year, level creation is going to be drastically changed for the better in terms of ease of use. No more fiddling with individual brushes . . .
04/27/2001 (6:25 pm)
Another problem is that many of us who know Max pretty well do not have what you might call a 'legal' copy of the program.*sigh* I'm actually VERY irritated that everybody uses 3DMax for everything. WTF is wrong with Lightwave??? But noooo . . .
However, the future is in high-end programs like LW and 3DMax, or at least level editors that have the charicteristics of 3D modelling programs. I remember the first time -- about 2 years ago -- that I started in on level editing with Worldcraft and then the much-maligned Dark Engine of Thief 2. My jaw dropped when I realized that no matter the program, the truth of the matter was that all level editing programs to date use boolean modelling for everything! I just couldn't believe it.
In as little as a year, level creation is going to be drastically changed for the better in terms of ease of use. No more fiddling with individual brushes . . .
#17
And you wonder why these tools are so expensive.....
04/27/2001 (7:04 pm)
Quote:Another problem is that many of us who know Max pretty well do not have what you might call a 'legal' copy of the program.
And you wonder why these tools are so expensive.....
#18
04/27/2001 (9:07 pm)
My copy of MAX3.1 is legal so far as it goes. Its a student version and can't be used for commercial projects. It was cheap though :)
#19
V12's editor is probably nothing compared to MAX.
Nothing I have seen ever has been. It would take years of programming to get the general interface and controls to the point of it.
MAX is made for handling any type of scene, especially complex scenes.
I have modeled them before, I know, trust me, MAX is better.
>You model each different object using Max (several different car models, some signposts, some bushes, road debris, etc..) export each as a model file. Load them into V12, duplicate where necessary, place into scene. Done.
Or you can create it in MAX and spend about twice as less time creating the levels! You can use instances of the meshes too, so if you find a problem and need to replace a mesh you don't have to re-export, and go through the entire thing in the V12 editor and replace each one, trying to get the positons right again.
Exporting one by one is time consuming and is not practical when you could easily design everything inside a more capable editor.
Since you don't know MAX, I should be easier on you.
MAX is a level designer in itself, it can go from low level editor of a mesh to an editor of an entire world with extreme ease.
>1) Irregardless of what kind of game you are building, you will build the individual objects with max or whatever modeler that you are planning on using, and then import the objects into the tribes scene editor. This allows you to scale, move and otherwise setup your 'scenes' right from IN the game engine.
In the game engine? So that means, in a slower environment as well.
That really sucks.
Don't argue with speed issues, especially if you haven't used MAX.
If you are making a world with so many models, I doubt there editor could handle it as well as MAX could.
>2) To say that you 'HAVE' to use max to layout your scenes is naive. Sure, some game engines use high-end modeling programs to layout their levels, but I can guarantee that it takes them ALOT longer to design their levels than the average game development team.
You don't 'HAVE' to.
But it saves tons of time doing it.
I enjoy the ability of creating the world, then just exporting and previewing when I need to, it is much simpler than exporting one by one.
>3) by being able to SEE what the map looks like in the engine AS YOU PIECE IT TOGETHER is the most useful tool that you could ever have as a game developer. To spend years working in a program like Max to layout the designs, only to import the maps into the game engine and see what they REALLY look like is pointless.
Previewing would be as simple as exporting and running an application or loading it into the editor, extremely simple, and you could do it often, or even side by side with MAX, so this point is moot.
>Either way, the V12 engine is miles above ANYTHING that you will be able to program/develop/purchase for the equivalent price. I feel confident saying that without even having played tribes 2 myself...
Don't talk about prices, it is only a good deal for certain people who don't have the money, and for many, they will end up paying far more than more capable engines with ulimited games being made for that price.
>Another problem is that many of us who know Max pretty well do not have what you might call a 'legal' copy of the program.
I am bothered with this as well.
You can find it at online auctions and many other legal places to buy it legally, but in my company, where we do much online work with our artists, there is no way of prooving if a copy is legal, and I can't tell them I can't accept their work just like that. =(
There is no way of prooving if someone has or doesn't have a legal copy of it, I have looked into each and every way, even the most brilliant ways of trickery, but there are holes inside each one.
Even then, they can tell you that they use something else, less expensive, or any number of shortcuts around it.
There isn't a way to proove it, and acussing someone won't help either. =(
Someone could so easily be or not be using a legal version. They could lie and say it isn't legal just to make you think they aren't that rich, and even say they bought it later on, any number of confusing things that all lead no where. =(
P.S.
As far as knowing MAX, it is pretty easy to learn level editing functions.
The advanced fuctions like Splines, lofting, boolean modeling, and other things are a bit harder, but still relatively easy.
04/28/2001 (2:26 am)
>I guess I'm just dense, but why would you want to use Max to setup some complex scene anyway?V12's editor is probably nothing compared to MAX.
Nothing I have seen ever has been. It would take years of programming to get the general interface and controls to the point of it.
MAX is made for handling any type of scene, especially complex scenes.
I have modeled them before, I know, trust me, MAX is better.
>You model each different object using Max (several different car models, some signposts, some bushes, road debris, etc..) export each as a model file. Load them into V12, duplicate where necessary, place into scene. Done.
Or you can create it in MAX and spend about twice as less time creating the levels! You can use instances of the meshes too, so if you find a problem and need to replace a mesh you don't have to re-export, and go through the entire thing in the V12 editor and replace each one, trying to get the positons right again.
Exporting one by one is time consuming and is not practical when you could easily design everything inside a more capable editor.
Since you don't know MAX, I should be easier on you.
MAX is a level designer in itself, it can go from low level editor of a mesh to an editor of an entire world with extreme ease.
>1) Irregardless of what kind of game you are building, you will build the individual objects with max or whatever modeler that you are planning on using, and then import the objects into the tribes scene editor. This allows you to scale, move and otherwise setup your 'scenes' right from IN the game engine.
In the game engine? So that means, in a slower environment as well.
That really sucks.
Don't argue with speed issues, especially if you haven't used MAX.
If you are making a world with so many models, I doubt there editor could handle it as well as MAX could.
>2) To say that you 'HAVE' to use max to layout your scenes is naive. Sure, some game engines use high-end modeling programs to layout their levels, but I can guarantee that it takes them ALOT longer to design their levels than the average game development team.
You don't 'HAVE' to.
But it saves tons of time doing it.
I enjoy the ability of creating the world, then just exporting and previewing when I need to, it is much simpler than exporting one by one.
>3) by being able to SEE what the map looks like in the engine AS YOU PIECE IT TOGETHER is the most useful tool that you could ever have as a game developer. To spend years working in a program like Max to layout the designs, only to import the maps into the game engine and see what they REALLY look like is pointless.
Previewing would be as simple as exporting and running an application or loading it into the editor, extremely simple, and you could do it often, or even side by side with MAX, so this point is moot.
>Either way, the V12 engine is miles above ANYTHING that you will be able to program/develop/purchase for the equivalent price. I feel confident saying that without even having played tribes 2 myself...
Don't talk about prices, it is only a good deal for certain people who don't have the money, and for many, they will end up paying far more than more capable engines with ulimited games being made for that price.
>Another problem is that many of us who know Max pretty well do not have what you might call a 'legal' copy of the program.
I am bothered with this as well.
You can find it at online auctions and many other legal places to buy it legally, but in my company, where we do much online work with our artists, there is no way of prooving if a copy is legal, and I can't tell them I can't accept their work just like that. =(
There is no way of prooving if someone has or doesn't have a legal copy of it, I have looked into each and every way, even the most brilliant ways of trickery, but there are holes inside each one.
Even then, they can tell you that they use something else, less expensive, or any number of shortcuts around it.
There isn't a way to proove it, and acussing someone won't help either. =(
Someone could so easily be or not be using a legal version. They could lie and say it isn't legal just to make you think they aren't that rich, and even say they bought it later on, any number of confusing things that all lead no where. =(
P.S.
As far as knowing MAX, it is pretty easy to learn level editing functions.
The advanced fuctions like Splines, lofting, boolean modeling, and other things are a bit harder, but still relatively easy.
#20
$100 bucks is damn cheap for current technology 3D game engine...sure...it's not going to be as easy as MAX is to make a game from it...no game EVER is!
And you want to licence an engine that you can make many games with?...you could always buy several V-12 licenses...it STILL beats paying upwords of $250,000 for an "unlimited number of games" engine that will be outdated in 2 years (Don't even think that all the license holders for the Q2 engine got a "free upgrade" when Q3 was released!)
04/29/2001 (12:19 am)
You obviously have a thing for MAX...I don't think GG will provide you with an 100% across the board MAX compatable version of V-12 for the same price...so it would prolly be in your best intrest to look elsewere for your game engine needs...$100 bucks is damn cheap for current technology 3D game engine...sure...it's not going to be as easy as MAX is to make a game from it...no game EVER is!
And you want to licence an engine that you can make many games with?...you could always buy several V-12 licenses...it STILL beats paying upwords of $250,000 for an "unlimited number of games" engine that will be outdated in 2 years (Don't even think that all the license holders for the Q2 engine got a "free upgrade" when Q3 was released!)
Torque 3D Owner Brian Smith
Here's a few links of interest:
V12 Engine Features
V12 FAQ
V12 FAQ Forum