Question about architecture
by Jason · in General Discussion · 11/04/2006 (7:29 pm) · 9 replies
I've been programming in c++ for a few years now, and have finally called it quits to my own engines. Basically they take too long and for what? I'd rather buy one.
So, I am here. What I want to know is a few things:
1) Is Torque source code you receive that you have to build and program yourself through a compiler (such as MS visual studio), or is it through a graphical interface with scripting via in-engine?
2) How many players does torque support at a single time? I'm basically looking for the mmo type of effect. Although, besides this, I want to have high quality graphics, so if I could get 1000 people on a server it wouldn't matter if I had 5 polygon figures running around.
3) How is the documentation/ease of use with torque? Can I get a program up and running or do I have to sit for 3 months and learn the language?
4) Graphics/terrain quality. How is it? Is it generic like the screenshots you see on the main page or can you customize your own graphics (easily) to fit your needs? I don't want to have my game look like everyone elses, but I want to use the torque modelling utilities if possible.
That's it for now, I"ll think of more.
(oh, and how does seamless worlds work. Can I have multiple servers going to have a noloading effect during gameplay?)
So, I am here. What I want to know is a few things:
1) Is Torque source code you receive that you have to build and program yourself through a compiler (such as MS visual studio), or is it through a graphical interface with scripting via in-engine?
2) How many players does torque support at a single time? I'm basically looking for the mmo type of effect. Although, besides this, I want to have high quality graphics, so if I could get 1000 people on a server it wouldn't matter if I had 5 polygon figures running around.
3) How is the documentation/ease of use with torque? Can I get a program up and running or do I have to sit for 3 months and learn the language?
4) Graphics/terrain quality. How is it? Is it generic like the screenshots you see on the main page or can you customize your own graphics (easily) to fit your needs? I don't want to have my game look like everyone elses, but I want to use the torque modelling utilities if possible.
That's it for now, I"ll think of more.
(oh, and how does seamless worlds work. Can I have multiple servers going to have a noloading effect during gameplay?)
#2
#2. Don't know, but the mmo kit is optimised to handle a lot more than you state.
#3. There is a lot of documentation, plus a wiki, 3 books with 2 more on the way, and this forum. An experienced programmer won't have any problems.
#4. Depends on which engine you buy. tge is what's shown. TSE is the shader engine and has a newer terrain engine that is supposed to be better.
#5. I don't know the answer.
#6. (Does anyhoneanswer) Have patience. It's Sunday. Not a lot of people online.
Hope this helps.
11/05/2006 (10:47 am)
#1. Both. You get the full source for the engine and 2 demo games that you can mod.#2. Don't know, but the mmo kit is optimised to handle a lot more than you state.
#3. There is a lot of documentation, plus a wiki, 3 books with 2 more on the way, and this forum. An experienced programmer won't have any problems.
#4. Depends on which engine you buy. tge is what's shown. TSE is the shader engine and has a newer terrain engine that is supposed to be better.
#5. I don't know the answer.
#6. (Does anyhoneanswer) Have patience. It's Sunday. Not a lot of people online.
Hope this helps.
#3
2. It depends more on how complex the actions that need to be ghosted are than the polygons since that takes place on the client-side (unless you are replicating content from the server, which will be dependent on the size of the content and the latency between connections. There is no max cap for "number of players", though.
3.You will have to spend a significant amount of time learning how the engine is put together to get the most out of it and figure out where to extend it for your gametype. This is unavoidable in any engine, and often a sticking point for people who cannot expand engine capabilities either through their own facilities or because the engine developers do not allow them to do so. I would recommend the books that are out as a strong starting point, though. Once you have that, it will be easier to navigate the documentation to find what you need. Otherwise it can be overwhelming. The more you use the engine, the more you will discover how things are put together.
4. This is highly dependent on your artist. Terrain blocks were a rather big sticking point for people pre-1.5, but much of that concern has been alleviated. Of course, Atlas allows much greater sizes and levels of detail for terrains, but also requires shader-enabled target hardware.
5. You would have to code this. Currently, seamless terrain is not supported. You would have to find a way to manage paths, interior rendering, terrains, etc across the seams. I am not sure if the MMOKit has addressed this as I am not an owner, but you might want to see if they have (mydreamrpg.com).
4.
11/05/2006 (11:59 am)
1. You receive the full source-code to the engine. If you download the demo, you will see what the source code creates when you compile (gcc, XCode, Visual Studio) out of the box. There is also a scripting language incorporated into the engine called TorqueScript. If you have a c-styled background, then picking up Torquescript should be simple. With a programming background, it won't be much harder. This is where you create your main game logic so that you do not have to recompile each time you make changes to it.2. It depends more on how complex the actions that need to be ghosted are than the polygons since that takes place on the client-side (unless you are replicating content from the server, which will be dependent on the size of the content and the latency between connections. There is no max cap for "number of players", though.
3.You will have to spend a significant amount of time learning how the engine is put together to get the most out of it and figure out where to extend it for your gametype. This is unavoidable in any engine, and often a sticking point for people who cannot expand engine capabilities either through their own facilities or because the engine developers do not allow them to do so. I would recommend the books that are out as a strong starting point, though. Once you have that, it will be easier to navigate the documentation to find what you need. Otherwise it can be overwhelming. The more you use the engine, the more you will discover how things are put together.
4. This is highly dependent on your artist. Terrain blocks were a rather big sticking point for people pre-1.5, but much of that concern has been alleviated. Of course, Atlas allows much greater sizes and levels of detail for terrains, but also requires shader-enabled target hardware.
5. You would have to code this. Currently, seamless terrain is not supported. You would have to find a way to manage paths, interior rendering, terrains, etc across the seams. I am not sure if the MMOKit has addressed this as I am not an owner, but you might want to see if they have (mydreamrpg.com).
4.
#4
11/05/2006 (11:59 am)
What about trials? I'm not ready to dump 150 on something I can't try before hand. Do they allow trial packages?
#5
EDIT
DTS (model) exporters
DIF (interiors/building/etc) for use with .map editors (Hammer, Radiant, 3D World Studio, Quark, Constructor).
11/05/2006 (12:03 pm)
You can download the demo and head to the artist pages to get content into the engine. Download the 1.5 version and modify the FPS mission to your heart's content. Add models, change lighting, redo the terrain, etc.EDIT
DTS (model) exporters
DIF (interiors/building/etc) for use with .map editors (Hammer, Radiant, 3D World Studio, Quark, Constructor).
#6
I want an engine that will allow me to do something online, so a MMO. If this can't handle that, then I'll just have to code my own engine.
I guess my problem is that I have to make a decision, which is either to invest a ton of time learning this engine which if I change at some later point in time will be a complete waste, or make my own engine and actually learn how to do it.
ahg
11/05/2006 (12:09 pm)
Yes, but this doesn't deal with gameplay. I'm talking networking.I want an engine that will allow me to do something online, so a MMO. If this can't handle that, then I'll just have to code my own engine.
I guess my problem is that I have to make a decision, which is either to invest a ton of time learning this engine which if I change at some later point in time will be a complete waste, or make my own engine and actually learn how to do it.
ahg
#7
Out of the box, Torque is not set up for MMO style networking. It is designed around highly accurate, fast action networking. This is a VASTLY different model than MMO's. The Minions of Mirth team have put together a great MMO, so it is definitely possible as long as you have an extremely gifted programmer (or team of them) that know how MMO network architectures work. Or you can also leverage off of the MMOKit and the knowledge there to see how to move forward.
Or you could go with something like Kineva or RealmCrafter.
One thing that you will need to do with the stock engine, aside from a network metrics overhaul, is to hook into a database (which there are resources for). The MMOKit implements this functionality. It is not in the engine as stock since it is not necessary for a huge amount of gametypes.
11/05/2006 (12:18 pm)
You can see if the MMOKit has their demo ready and see if it features the changes you need. Oh, and it should allso be noted that "something online" does not mean MMO.Out of the box, Torque is not set up for MMO style networking. It is designed around highly accurate, fast action networking. This is a VASTLY different model than MMO's. The Minions of Mirth team have put together a great MMO, so it is definitely possible as long as you have an extremely gifted programmer (or team of them) that know how MMO network architectures work. Or you can also leverage off of the MMOKit and the knowledge there to see how to move forward.
Or you could go with something like Kineva or RealmCrafter.
One thing that you will need to do with the stock engine, aside from a network metrics overhaul, is to hook into a database (which there are resources for). The MMOKit implements this functionality. It is not in the engine as stock since it is not necessary for a huge amount of gametypes.
#8
However, with some hard work and dedication, Torque can be coded to work as an MMO as well.
Check out some of Josh Ritter's excellent blogs on the subject. He has been the most ambitious and successful Torque MMO guru around these parts. Here's one link to get you started . . .
www.garagegames.com/blogs/4280/11470
I should probably mention that you will need the source code to make something as robust as Josh's Minion of Mirth with the Torque Game Engine.
11/05/2006 (12:18 pm)
Torque is networked and depending on what's involved, can support up to 128 players without much difficulty. The typical player count is around 64, though. However, with some hard work and dedication, Torque can be coded to work as an MMO as well.
Check out some of Josh Ritter's excellent blogs on the subject. He has been the most ambitious and successful Torque MMO guru around these parts. Here's one link to get you started . . .
www.garagegames.com/blogs/4280/11470
I should probably mention that you will need the source code to make something as robust as Josh's Minion of Mirth with the Torque Game Engine.
#9
11/05/2006 (12:19 pm)
Oops. David beat me to it. ;) 
Jason