Game dev parallel universe
by Erik Deschamps · in General Discussion · 10/22/2006 (3:42 pm) · 33 replies
I'm not trying to dis programmers because I know they work hard, but what if....
it WAS possible to buy things like Renderware, Unreal, Maya.... for the cost of Torque Indie.
What would the game industry be like? (Use your imaginations.)
My theory is: for one, there would be more games made a year due to more people involved in the industry. And two, because of more, maybe "causual" developers the games would look like mods of existing games [like companies don't do that already =( ] , except for more power at their fingertips to redo GUI's and core concepts, and more risk taking because there wouldn't be some executive breathing down their necks.
P.S.
What do you all think of the dev team that did the newer Legacy of Kain games being fired from their contract work with Blizzard Entertainment? (It was Starcraft Ghost.)
I personally laughed for like two days, because you have to remember they don't just get fired, there ARE warnings before hand. I'm glad to see one of those bloated companies finnaly eat their own BS: "Don't worry, we're all trained professionals, here. Just you wait, we'll have that dang'ole Starcraft Ghost look'in real perdy for ya!"
*rolls eyes*
it WAS possible to buy things like Renderware, Unreal, Maya.... for the cost of Torque Indie.
What would the game industry be like? (Use your imaginations.)
My theory is: for one, there would be more games made a year due to more people involved in the industry. And two, because of more, maybe "causual" developers the games would look like mods of existing games [like companies don't do that already =( ] , except for more power at their fingertips to redo GUI's and core concepts, and more risk taking because there wouldn't be some executive breathing down their necks.
P.S.
What do you all think of the dev team that did the newer Legacy of Kain games being fired from their contract work with Blizzard Entertainment? (It was Starcraft Ghost.)
I personally laughed for like two days, because you have to remember they don't just get fired, there ARE warnings before hand. I'm glad to see one of those bloated companies finnaly eat their own BS: "Don't worry, we're all trained professionals, here. Just you wait, we'll have that dang'ole Starcraft Ghost look'in real perdy for ya!"
*rolls eyes*
#2
10/22/2006 (9:52 pm)
Ya I agree 
#3
I don't understand that. If you are talking Nihilistic, that's ancient history. and I have a friend (though I have since lost contact with him) who was one of the founders. I don't understand why you'd laugh at them. If you are talking Swinging Ape, they were later acquired by Blizzard by my understanding, so they didn't lose a contract with them at all. And I didn't realize the latest Legacy of Kain was done by an external studio.
So I'm very confused about who you are laughing at and why. But I find that attitude very disturbing.
10/23/2006 (12:42 pm)
Pretty much what JW said. No - EXACTLY what JW said.Quote:I personally laughed for like two days, because you have to remember they don't just get fired...
I don't understand that. If you are talking Nihilistic, that's ancient history. and I have a friend (though I have since lost contact with him) who was one of the founders. I don't understand why you'd laugh at them. If you are talking Swinging Ape, they were later acquired by Blizzard by my understanding, so they didn't lose a contract with them at all. And I didn't realize the latest Legacy of Kain was done by an external studio.
So I'm very confused about who you are laughing at and why. But I find that attitude very disturbing.
#4
10/23/2006 (3:10 pm)
The one and only reason I'm even interested in game development is because I have ideas I want to see made real, and I can't convince anyone else to do it for me ;)
#5
Short answer, the game industry would be a thing of the past.
Longer answer.
Something in game, that you fly past in what less than 30 seconds, maybe even un noticed, took time to develop. As a proffesional developer, I for one would not spend time developing games, if it didnt pay. Yes I enjoy my Job, but I could fined less taxing things to do with my time. Just because you have a copy of Torque Game engine, or a crack copy of Max or Maya dosnt make you a game developer. This takes years of contiunued personal development, and even if you reach the holy grail of becomeng a profesional, the lerarning dosnt stop. At the end of the day making these tools available to everyone, would water down the industry.
EDIT : spelling
10/23/2006 (3:21 pm)
You poised the question, I shall answer it.Short answer, the game industry would be a thing of the past.
Longer answer.
Something in game, that you fly past in what less than 30 seconds, maybe even un noticed, took time to develop. As a proffesional developer, I for one would not spend time developing games, if it didnt pay. Yes I enjoy my Job, but I could fined less taxing things to do with my time. Just because you have a copy of Torque Game engine, or a crack copy of Max or Maya dosnt make you a game developer. This takes years of contiunued personal development, and even if you reach the holy grail of becomeng a profesional, the lerarning dosnt stop. At the end of the day making these tools available to everyone, would water down the industry.
EDIT : spelling
#6
So exactly what companies use these tools? ....afraid of hard work? What does "a lot of people try to avoid doing hard work for little to no pay" even mean? That is an impossiblity on sooo many levels. I'll name two: 1.) For almost every industry out there the more you pay for a tool, the easier the job goes because time=money, you pay the tool maker money for less time. Its called 'Professional grade'. 2.) If they are avoiding hard work all the time then they deserve little to no pay or maybe a pink slip....
Rotf. Doesn't even read the whole post, no wonder he doesn't understand. "Hmm, don't understand...better play it safe and say its disturbing." I believe the story I speak of is on the offical Blizzard website.
That is one of the divine concepts of artists. Just keep on trucking and ignore people who disagree, its the only way to fly.
Another rotf... a thing of the past. Yes, raising game design to the level of the classical arts would just kill it, I know.... Like how making affordable cameras in the early 20th century just KILLED the photagraphy industry.... oh---my---god.
Yea everything takes time to develop...so? If you develop games then you're not developing Maya, now are you? I hear 'professional' thrown around alot by musicians and various other types throughout my day. Short answer: its nothing but a word, and if you read between the lines its an insulting word BECAUSE you never hear a lawyer or farmer say "I'm a professional" because we all know you probably have a bucket load of customers. Professional is tacked onto a job where people say: "Wow, you actually managed to live off of doing that?" and in all actuality refers to someone who has made an artform out of doing the least amount of work for the most amount of pay, while an amature is a perfectionist. Example: paleontology. It may not be all over the media these days but back in the 90's when it was, almost all major discoveries were made by: you guessed it, amateurs! THEN the big stupid 'professional' paleontologists came in and said: "Don't worry, we'll take it from here you stupid little man."
Of COURSE a CRACK copy of Maya doesn't make you a developer because people who make production software are always sniffing around the net looking for people who use crack copies in comercial works. Looks like you missed that one in your years of personal development...
Oh, water down the industry. I think someone is watering their panties at the thought of some virtual unknown from a village in south america or something (yes giving digital technology for free to people like that is starting to happen) passing you on the ladder because he had the resources to do so.
10/23/2006 (10:25 pm)
Dang it. I thought I could have a subliminal way of getting candid responses from people on game theory. It worked just fine when I talked to people face to face. But I guess on a forum you can't see the empty beer cans beside the person who's typing....Quote:The problem is not the cost of the tools. You can use tools like Milkshape, or Blender, or DeleD, or Wings, or any of a host of other low-cost tools. The problem is that making games is hard, and a lot of people try to avoid doing hard work for little to no pay.
So exactly what companies use these tools? ....afraid of hard work? What does "a lot of people try to avoid doing hard work for little to no pay" even mean? That is an impossiblity on sooo many levels. I'll name two: 1.) For almost every industry out there the more you pay for a tool, the easier the job goes because time=money, you pay the tool maker money for less time. Its called 'Professional grade'. 2.) If they are avoiding hard work all the time then they deserve little to no pay or maybe a pink slip....
Quote: Quote:
I personally laughed for like two days, because you have to remember they don't just get fired...
I don't understand that....And I didn't realize the latest Legacy of Kain was done by an external studio.So I'm very confused about who you are laughing at and why. But I find that attitude very disturbing.
Rotf. Doesn't even read the whole post, no wonder he doesn't understand. "Hmm, don't understand...better play it safe and say its disturbing." I believe the story I speak of is on the offical Blizzard website.
Quote:The one and only reason I'm even interested in game development is because I have ideas I want to see made real, and I can't convince anyone else to do it for me ;)
That is one of the divine concepts of artists. Just keep on trucking and ignore people who disagree, its the only way to fly.
Quote:You poised the question, I shall answer it.
Short answer, the game industry would be a thing of the past.
Longer answer.
Something in game, that you fly past in what less than 30 seconds, maybe even un noticed, took time to develop. As a proffesional developer, I for one would not spend time developing games, if it didnt pay. Yes I enjoy my Job, but I could fined less taxing things to do with my time. Just because you have a copy of Torque Game engine, or a crack copy of Max or Maya dosnt make you a game developer. This takes years of contiunued personal development, and even if you reach the holy grail of becomeng a profesional, the lerarning dosnt stop. At the end of the day making these tools available to everyone, would water down the industry.
Another rotf... a thing of the past. Yes, raising game design to the level of the classical arts would just kill it, I know.... Like how making affordable cameras in the early 20th century just KILLED the photagraphy industry.... oh---my---god.
Yea everything takes time to develop...so? If you develop games then you're not developing Maya, now are you? I hear 'professional' thrown around alot by musicians and various other types throughout my day. Short answer: its nothing but a word, and if you read between the lines its an insulting word BECAUSE you never hear a lawyer or farmer say "I'm a professional" because we all know you probably have a bucket load of customers. Professional is tacked onto a job where people say: "Wow, you actually managed to live off of doing that?" and in all actuality refers to someone who has made an artform out of doing the least amount of work for the most amount of pay, while an amature is a perfectionist. Example: paleontology. It may not be all over the media these days but back in the 90's when it was, almost all major discoveries were made by: you guessed it, amateurs! THEN the big stupid 'professional' paleontologists came in and said: "Don't worry, we'll take it from here you stupid little man."
Of COURSE a CRACK copy of Maya doesn't make you a developer because people who make production software are always sniffing around the net looking for people who use crack copies in comercial works. Looks like you missed that one in your years of personal development...
Oh, water down the industry. I think someone is watering their panties at the thought of some virtual unknown from a village in south america or something (yes giving digital technology for free to people like that is starting to happen) passing you on the ladder because he had the resources to do so.
#7
Go, make games, people. Shoo!
10/24/2006 (1:18 am)
I have no idea what exactly is this discussion about. Sometimes I think I catch some meaning and then again I think that original poster just loves to talk. A lot. About nothing special.Go, make games, people. Shoo!
#8
Well, that answers your question: Lowering the price of software will make it available to a lot of people who do not have the skills to otherwise justify buying professional software. And if the standards of the industy matched, then yes, the industry would be watered down with sub-standard skills. It has nothing to do with someone in the Andes mountains who is really talented getting a copy for free, and everything to do with people who are untalented wanting a "make art" button and thinking that Max or Maya does that over other apps like Silo or trueSpace.
The fact is, as the quality of professional software goes up, so does the price because of the time spent developing it. The fact that it saves the developer time to have the software does not necessarily translate into shorter dev times, because then the games become more complex and intricate, with the developers freed up to bring the game closer to the vision they have in their head- which is usually limited by technology.
10/24/2006 (5:55 am)
Quote:Another rotf... a thing of the past. Yes, raising game design to the level of the classical arts would just kill it, I know.... Like how making affordable cameras in the early 20th century just KILLED the photagraphy industry.... oh---my---god.
Well, that answers your question: Lowering the price of software will make it available to a lot of people who do not have the skills to otherwise justify buying professional software. And if the standards of the industy matched, then yes, the industry would be watered down with sub-standard skills. It has nothing to do with someone in the Andes mountains who is really talented getting a copy for free, and everything to do with people who are untalented wanting a "make art" button and thinking that Max or Maya does that over other apps like Silo or trueSpace.
The fact is, as the quality of professional software goes up, so does the price because of the time spent developing it. The fact that it saves the developer time to have the software does not necessarily translate into shorter dev times, because then the games become more complex and intricate, with the developers freed up to bring the game closer to the vision they have in their head- which is usually limited by technology.
#9
Seriously, are you people real indivduals or are all of you just one person payed to spread propaganda over the net like so many other industries. And why do you worship teachers? Don't you know it's an insult to humanity to say they are nessesary for our exisitence? And quit trying to use the old "I'm a professional" guilt complex on me, and anyone else who thinks its wrong to wrap themselves around their job title. Not cool. Not cool.
The industry as a whole has no real standards. None do. Its all about raising stock share prices. Countless threads on this very site attest do this.
Jeez, you really are a made up alias, aren't you? Either that you like to follow the leader off the cliff... Seeing as you completely ignore my posts taunting people for dodging hard work I would have to say its option A.
Again, another ignored post I did. You're on a roll today. It's not about that anyway, its about technology reaching an inevitable plateau, if not a temporary one, where most people are satisfied with older technology and the price goes down. Sort of like the non-digital world.
If it doesn't then there's a little production issue called time mismanagement, which I would say happens quite often when teams trying to reach a creative goal consisting of hundred-plus people and no concrete leader try to do something...
Oh, and if art was about plugging a wire into your head to siphon out the pictures in your mind....it would have been invented by now.
10/24/2006 (12:51 pm)
Quote:Well, that answers your question: Lowering the price of software will make it available to a lot of people who do not have the skills to otherwise justify buying professional software. And if the standards of the industy matched, then yes, the industry would be watered down with sub-standard skills. It has nothing to do with someone in the Andes mountains who is really talented getting a copy for free, and everything to do with people who are untalented wanting a "make art" button and thinking that Max or Maya does that over other apps like Silo or trueSpace.
The fact is, as the quality of professional software goes up, so does the price because of the time spent developing it. The fact that it saves the developer time to have the software does not necessarily translate into shorter dev times, because then the games become more complex and intricate, with the developers freed up to bring the game closer to the vision they have in their head- which is usually limited by technology.
Seriously, are you people real indivduals or are all of you just one person payed to spread propaganda over the net like so many other industries. And why do you worship teachers? Don't you know it's an insult to humanity to say they are nessesary for our exisitence? And quit trying to use the old "I'm a professional" guilt complex on me, and anyone else who thinks its wrong to wrap themselves around their job title. Not cool. Not cool.
The industry as a whole has no real standards. None do. Its all about raising stock share prices. Countless threads on this very site attest do this.
Quote:It has nothing to do with someone in the Andes mountains who is really talented getting a copy for free, and everything to do with people who are untalented wanting a "make art" button and thinking that Max or Maya does that over other apps like Silo or trueSpace.
Jeez, you really are a made up alias, aren't you? Either that you like to follow the leader off the cliff... Seeing as you completely ignore my posts taunting people for dodging hard work I would have to say its option A.
Quote:The fact is, as the quality of professional software goes up, so does the price because of the time spent developing it.
Again, another ignored post I did. You're on a roll today. It's not about that anyway, its about technology reaching an inevitable plateau, if not a temporary one, where most people are satisfied with older technology and the price goes down. Sort of like the non-digital world.
Quote:The fact that it saves the developer time to have the software does not necessarily translate into shorter dev times, because then the games become more complex and intricate, with the developers freed up to bring the game closer to the vision they have in their head- which is usually limited by technology.
If it doesn't then there's a little production issue called time mismanagement, which I would say happens quite often when teams trying to reach a creative goal consisting of hundred-plus people and no concrete leader try to do something...
Oh, and if art was about plugging a wire into your head to siphon out the pictures in your mind....it would have been invented by now.
#10
10/24/2006 (12:55 pm)
I can tell someone is new to the concept of forums. (: 
#11
A Professional knows when to say "When"!
:)
10/24/2006 (1:02 pm)
What is the difference between a Professional and an Amatuer?A Professional knows when to say "When"!
:)
#12
Indeed, I wasn't aware disagreeing with this forum's "fearless leaders" of uber high post count lead to stale rhetoric being thrown around like confetti. I don't see other forums doing this. It must be the cathode ray tan.
I think I'll follow this dudes heavy accented advice, seeing as the confetti rhetoric storm burried the thread's original post...
10/24/2006 (1:12 pm)
Quote:I can tell someone is new to the concept of forums. (:
Indeed, I wasn't aware disagreeing with this forum's "fearless leaders" of uber high post count lead to stale rhetoric being thrown around like confetti. I don't see other forums doing this. It must be the cathode ray tan.
Quote:I have no idea what exactly is this discussion about. Sometimes I think I catch some meaning and then again I think that original poster just loves to talk. A lot. About nothing special.
Go, make games, people. Shoo!
I think I'll follow this dudes heavy accented advice, seeing as the confetti rhetoric storm burried the thread's original post...
Quote:I'm off to the production Bat Cave, where Robin is a girl.
#13
Lose the tin-foil hat. Aliens only abduct smart people.
10/24/2006 (1:19 pm)
Quote:Indeed, I wasn't aware disagreeing with this forum's "fearless leaders" of uber high post count lead to stale rhetoric being thrown around like confetti.
Lose the tin-foil hat. Aliens only abduct smart people.
#14
My bottleneck is time... and eyesight. I can only get in maybe 12 hours of computer a day before my eyes shrivel up into dry, blurry chunks of useless meat in my sockets. So if I'm at work for 9 hours, I can get 3 hours of decent programming in max at home before I'm totally burned out.
10/24/2006 (4:57 pm)
Ya, I don't think software cost per se is the indie games development bottle neck. I bought TGB and what a total steal that has been. It's a huge time saver... and ONLY $100? It amazes me. I've also got Lightwave and Photoshop. Both were good deals as well.My bottleneck is time... and eyesight. I can only get in maybe 12 hours of computer a day before my eyes shrivel up into dry, blurry chunks of useless meat in my sockets. So if I'm at work for 9 hours, I can get 3 hours of decent programming in max at home before I'm totally burned out.
#15
Well, Supreme Overlord of the youthNet liberation front, I bow my hat you to, as these posters are infact PROPGANDA BOTS! From this I learn you're obviously a mature, well-educated person. I pass you the "uber high post count lead to stale rhetoric again rotfl... m@d sL1LLz" crown so you're opinion is always right about people you don't know and will never meet, and derailing your own topic for petty insults is game, as well as contributing flames to another unrelated, flameless topic.
Seriously, we don't appreciate that sort of crap here. You will get shit for it if you don't stop, nobody here ever wants to help an ass make his game, I hope only now the admins will mark this topic closed.
Now on topic, The cost of the tools isn't important, It's the quality of your artiast and programmers. If they need, a $300 piece of software it's an investment. If they can do it on something cheap it's a bonus.
10/24/2006 (5:03 pm)
I'm probably becoming Trollbait for this post, so don't expect a reply from me ;)Quote:...Seriously, are you people real indivduals or are all of you just one person payed to spread propaganda over the net like so many other industries....
...Indeed, I wasn't aware disagreeing with this forum's "fearless leaders" of uber high post count lead to stale rhetoric being thrown around like confetti. I don't see other forums doing this...
...Rotf. Doesn't even read the whole post, no wonder he doesn't understand. "Hmm, don't understand...better play it safe and say its disturbing." I believe the story I speak of is on the offical Blizzard website.
Well, Supreme Overlord of the youthNet liberation front, I bow my hat you to, as these posters are infact PROPGANDA BOTS! From this I learn you're obviously a mature, well-educated person. I pass you the "uber high post count lead to stale rhetoric again rotfl... m@d sL1LLz" crown so you're opinion is always right about people you don't know and will never meet, and derailing your own topic for petty insults is game, as well as contributing flames to another unrelated, flameless topic.
Seriously, we don't appreciate that sort of crap here. You will get shit for it if you don't stop, nobody here ever wants to help an ass make his game, I hope only now the admins will mark this topic closed.
Now on topic, The cost of the tools isn't important, It's the quality of your artiast and programmers. If they need, a $300 piece of software it's an investment. If they can do it on something cheap it's a bonus.
#16
If I needed help I would have filled out my profile... thought you had something over me, huh?
Chew on this
P.S.
you all sunk to my level or lower, so what's that make you?
10/25/2006 (12:15 am)
A short post and last one due to my writer's block lifting.Quote:Seriously, we don't appreciate that sort of crap here. You will get shit for it if you don't stop, nobody here ever wants to help an ass make his game, I hope only now the admins will mark this topic closed.
If I needed help I would have filled out my profile... thought you had something over me, huh?
Chew on this
P.S.
you all sunk to my level or lower, so what's that make you?
#17
10/25/2006 (1:10 am)
I see you're just making great use of that crown. Fantastic work. Keep it up ;)
#18
Not quite- we still use proper grammar when we rant. That puts us at least one level up ;)
10/25/2006 (12:24 pm)
Quote:you all sunk to my level or lower, so what's that make you?
Not quite- we still use proper grammar when we rant. That puts us at least one level up ;)
#19
You are all quite pathetic, in that you ignore every other sentence I type and make up the rest: the very definition of ignorance, to ignore.
Although I said I would be done with this post, its just too entertaining to pass up. A wise man never misses out on free entertainment.
If or when this thread gets locked I will print it out and frame it on my wall. That I guarantee.
You all claim to be so great and, *laugh snorts* , mature. But to the outside world you simply look like a pre-school during nap time. All it takes is someone yelling 'there is no tooth fairy' for all of you to wig out and revert back to animals....
10/25/2006 (2:34 pm)
You also yell at actual employees of Garage Games for voicing similar views, according to an employee blog I once saw. You are all quite pathetic, in that you ignore every other sentence I type and make up the rest: the very definition of ignorance, to ignore.
Although I said I would be done with this post, its just too entertaining to pass up. A wise man never misses out on free entertainment.
Quote:[insert lame, hilarious responce here]
If or when this thread gets locked I will print it out and frame it on my wall. That I guarantee.
You all claim to be so great and, *laugh snorts* , mature. But to the outside world you simply look like a pre-school during nap time. All it takes is someone yelling 'there is no tooth fairy' for all of you to wig out and revert back to animals....
#20
You posted a large amount of fragmentary comments that many people did not get and then, when challenged or prompted to clarify, you chose to personally insult people. Add to that the fact that noone on this planet is obligated to agree with anything that you say despite the fact that you feel that you are entitled to be right, and we come to this point where you are somehow declaring that you have won some vaporous point about something that none of us- including yourself- is clear about.
The fact is that you could have stated your case in a much better way. And if you did that and actually engaged in true debate with people without becoming insulting to them, then you might find that people do not disagree with you as much as you think. That all, of course, depends on you clarifying what you're trying to say (and no, I'm not reading your manifesto just so I can reply to your rantings. If you want a response here, then be clear here).
My two cents, and then some. Keep the change...
10/25/2006 (2:55 pm)
Actually, Erik, the real problem is that, after you wrote your "manifesto", you started looking to prove your point in the worst way possible, so you came here to start arguments. And as with everyone who looks to start something, they suceed, but then fall short when it comes time to finish.You posted a large amount of fragmentary comments that many people did not get and then, when challenged or prompted to clarify, you chose to personally insult people. Add to that the fact that noone on this planet is obligated to agree with anything that you say despite the fact that you feel that you are entitled to be right, and we come to this point where you are somehow declaring that you have won some vaporous point about something that none of us- including yourself- is clear about.
The fact is that you could have stated your case in a much better way. And if you did that and actually engaged in true debate with people without becoming insulting to them, then you might find that people do not disagree with you as much as you think. That all, of course, depends on you clarifying what you're trying to say (and no, I'm not reading your manifesto just so I can reply to your rantings. If you want a response here, then be clear here).
My two cents, and then some. Keep the change...
Torque Owner J "hplus" W