Feeling upset over the state of the Linux version of TGB
by Christopher \"Pacula\" Corkum · in Torque Game Builder · 10/10/2006 (5:10 am) · 29 replies
I feel that I must register a complaint regarding the lack of public information about the Linux version of TGB. While I did realize that the Linux version of TGB wasn't "officially" supported, the publicly-available information I was able to find seemed indicate that, at worst, the Linux version wasn't kept as up-to-date as the official Windows and OS X builds. So, thinking that I wouldn't have to deal with anything more serious than working around issues whose fixes hadn't trickled down to the Linux version yet, I went and purchased a license.
The word "shocked" does not even begin to describe my feelings as the true state of the Linux version became clear.
Simply put, there doesn't seem to be any way to obtain a usable Linux version of TGB at ALL at the moment. As I said before, I did realize before purchasing a licence that the Linux version wasn't "officially supported", but I had -no- idea how far the lack of support went, and I don't think it's unfair for me to feel upset over the matter.
The problems I am having with the 'current' Linux release are as follows, and occur in the included pre-built binary, as well as the versions I've compiled myself with gcc version 3.3.6 and 4.1.1.
- The framerate of both the TGB interface as well as any games running under it is abysmal - three-to-five frames a second at the most. Note that this is NOT due to lack of properly set up video drivers - I have no problems at all with any other hardware-accelerated programs, including TGE. I've also confirmed that TGB -is- reporting to the console that it's using the accelerated nvidia drivers, rather than accidently using mesa or some other software-based openGL layer.
- In addition to the painful framerate, the % of CPU time that TGB uses is consistently in the 95%-99% range, both while in the development interface and when trying to run a game.
- The 'open project' dialog is a non-functional blank window. with only the 'cancel' and 'OK' buttons being displayed.
- The 'create new project' dialog seems to display properly, but is missing a lot of the options that should be showing up in the pulldowns, and doesn't actually DO anything when the 'create' button is pressed.
In addition to the 1.1.1 Linux download, I have also tried compiling the 1.1.2 source code included with the OSX version. The only real difference from 1.1.1 that I could tell was the framerate - rather than a consistently slow rate, it would 'surge' - running at a still-slow-but-better-than-1.1.1 rate much of the time, but 'freezing' for a split second every few moments. The other issues (broken dialogs and maxed-out CPU usage) remain.
In addition to the problems in TGB itself, there are a number of problems with the website that make finding information on these issues virtually impossible. The biggest problems are the lack of a Linux-specific forum for TGB, and the lack of a means to search the forums. short of scanning through the thread subjects manually. What little information I've been able to find relates to patching older 'pre-release' versions of the TGB codebase that are no longer available. I am also aware of the t2d-linux mailing list, but like the forums posts, the information there is also now out of date, and the mailing list seems to have been dormant for months.
I'm not really sure of the best way to resolve this matter, but I can think of a few things that would help:
- Provide -some- working version of TGB for Linux - at the very least, give access to the older versions of the source code that the community DID create fixes and patches for.
- Add a Linux-specific forum for TGB on the site.
- Provide a better means of searching the forums, so it's actually possible to find the Linux-related posts without having to manually scan through the list of thread subjects.
- Be more clear about the state of the Linux version in the public information on TGB. At the very least, explain that the Linux version might not be functional at ALL.
- Christopher Corkum - SweetLeaf Studios
The word "shocked" does not even begin to describe my feelings as the true state of the Linux version became clear.
Simply put, there doesn't seem to be any way to obtain a usable Linux version of TGB at ALL at the moment. As I said before, I did realize before purchasing a licence that the Linux version wasn't "officially supported", but I had -no- idea how far the lack of support went, and I don't think it's unfair for me to feel upset over the matter.
The problems I am having with the 'current' Linux release are as follows, and occur in the included pre-built binary, as well as the versions I've compiled myself with gcc version 3.3.6 and 4.1.1.
- The framerate of both the TGB interface as well as any games running under it is abysmal - three-to-five frames a second at the most. Note that this is NOT due to lack of properly set up video drivers - I have no problems at all with any other hardware-accelerated programs, including TGE. I've also confirmed that TGB -is- reporting to the console that it's using the accelerated nvidia drivers, rather than accidently using mesa or some other software-based openGL layer.
- In addition to the painful framerate, the % of CPU time that TGB uses is consistently in the 95%-99% range, both while in the development interface and when trying to run a game.
- The 'open project' dialog is a non-functional blank window. with only the 'cancel' and 'OK' buttons being displayed.
- The 'create new project' dialog seems to display properly, but is missing a lot of the options that should be showing up in the pulldowns, and doesn't actually DO anything when the 'create' button is pressed.
In addition to the 1.1.1 Linux download, I have also tried compiling the 1.1.2 source code included with the OSX version. The only real difference from 1.1.1 that I could tell was the framerate - rather than a consistently slow rate, it would 'surge' - running at a still-slow-but-better-than-1.1.1 rate much of the time, but 'freezing' for a split second every few moments. The other issues (broken dialogs and maxed-out CPU usage) remain.
In addition to the problems in TGB itself, there are a number of problems with the website that make finding information on these issues virtually impossible. The biggest problems are the lack of a Linux-specific forum for TGB, and the lack of a means to search the forums. short of scanning through the thread subjects manually. What little information I've been able to find relates to patching older 'pre-release' versions of the TGB codebase that are no longer available. I am also aware of the t2d-linux mailing list, but like the forums posts, the information there is also now out of date, and the mailing list seems to have been dormant for months.
I'm not really sure of the best way to resolve this matter, but I can think of a few things that would help:
- Provide -some- working version of TGB for Linux - at the very least, give access to the older versions of the source code that the community DID create fixes and patches for.
- Add a Linux-specific forum for TGB on the site.
- Provide a better means of searching the forums, so it's actually possible to find the Linux-related posts without having to manually scan through the list of thread subjects.
- Be more clear about the state of the Linux version in the public information on TGB. At the very least, explain that the Linux version might not be functional at ALL.
- Christopher Corkum - SweetLeaf Studios
Thread is locked
#22
10/12/2006 (2:02 pm)
Thanks for the link. Gave me a good chuckle!. Make sure you link it to the front page. Maybe right under how to setup the Microsoft Compiler. :)
#23
That list just got really, really active.
And I can verify the download in TGB Linux download area on this site does work.
I'm trying to get an active group together to port the current windows version to linux.
So yeah your going to get help Dennis.
Regards,
Dreamer
10/12/2006 (2:08 pm)
I think he's being serious.That list just got really, really active.
And I can verify the download in TGB Linux download area on this site does work.
I'm trying to get an active group together to port the current windows version to linux.
So yeah your going to get help Dennis.
Regards,
Dreamer
#24
There is a gg linux community..
No, we don't always post on the boards, nor make tdn articles as we usually have better things to do.
T2D is working fine for me, so does tge.
There is a mailing list and now there's a message board section here - take your pick.
Either you're part of the solution or part of the problem. Bitching about it isn't going to help anyone.
You claim to be a linux guy, well get your hands dirty a little and actually try some of this stuff yourself.
10/12/2006 (2:18 pm)
Wow, a linux pissing contest! Woot... This just verifies there's enough of a linux community around to do that. Let's see, you've been around here 6 months, I've been around here going on 4 years. There is a gg linux community..
No, we don't always post on the boards, nor make tdn articles as we usually have better things to do.
T2D is working fine for me, so does tge.
There is a mailing list and now there's a message board section here - take your pick.
Either you're part of the solution or part of the problem. Bitching about it isn't going to help anyone.
You claim to be a linux guy, well get your hands dirty a little and actually try some of this stuff yourself.
#25
I clicked on that link and actually expected compiling instructions too ya know.
It's attitudes like that from both of you guys thats going to kill the GG Linux efforts, and tends to polarize the Linux community as a whole.
@Dennis, you didn't understand that the link was actually meant to send you to a unified Linux community and was not meant as a joke. Sarcasm isn't going to help there to actually be real honest to god compiling instructions there.
@David, your bitching about someone else's bitching isn't going to help anyone either. Don't be so confrontational. Someones "Linux" experience here, might be limited to just a desire to port their game or product to Linux. An attitude like "You're using linux you should know already", just isn't going to get folks to bring their stuff to our platform.
Having been here 4 years, or 4 days means nothing, what matters is how often you try to help, and how well you actually do help, which would be the purpose of the "community" section at garage games, so when the heck did the mental age around here drop to 12? It's inexcusable.
Now lets rally round one another and get this done.
Regards,
Dreamer
10/12/2006 (2:34 pm)
Wow David, that was a little terse don't you think?I clicked on that link and actually expected compiling instructions too ya know.
It's attitudes like that from both of you guys thats going to kill the GG Linux efforts, and tends to polarize the Linux community as a whole.
@Dennis, you didn't understand that the link was actually meant to send you to a unified Linux community and was not meant as a joke. Sarcasm isn't going to help there to actually be real honest to god compiling instructions there.
@David, your bitching about someone else's bitching isn't going to help anyone either. Don't be so confrontational. Someones "Linux" experience here, might be limited to just a desire to port their game or product to Linux. An attitude like "You're using linux you should know already", just isn't going to get folks to bring their stuff to our platform.
Having been here 4 years, or 4 days means nothing, what matters is how often you try to help, and how well you actually do help, which would be the purpose of the "community" section at garage games, so when the heck did the mental age around here drop to 12? It's inexcusable.
Now lets rally round one another and get this done.
Regards,
Dreamer
#26
10/12/2006 (2:44 pm)
Just a heads up, I added compiling instructions to the link.
#27
I'm a bit of a purest when it comes to Linux and if you don't:
a> at least know how to get around in a command line environment
b> know how to compile something
c> be able to track and fix simple compiling errors
Then you really don't need to be trying to compile something as huge as torque.
If you have the time and energy to hand hold everyone that stops by, complains about it not working and how they're upset and wants their money back and pops in just to say - hey the non-existant community won't help me make my game - more power to you.
I on the other hand wait till someone has actually spent a little time with the issue, tried to resolve it themselves, and then maybe - if I see their post in this sea of messages - I might take some time to type something back.
To each their own and I'll leave it at that.
10/12/2006 (3:13 pm)
Dreamer, seriously... I didn't ask for a mediator and I don't need one. I'm a bit of a purest when it comes to Linux and if you don't:
a> at least know how to get around in a command line environment
b> know how to compile something
c> be able to track and fix simple compiling errors
Then you really don't need to be trying to compile something as huge as torque.
If you have the time and energy to hand hold everyone that stops by, complains about it not working and how they're upset and wants their money back and pops in just to say - hey the non-existant community won't help me make my game - more power to you.
I on the other hand wait till someone has actually spent a little time with the issue, tried to resolve it themselves, and then maybe - if I see their post in this sea of messages - I might take some time to type something back.
To each their own and I'll leave it at that.
#28
But that's not the point, here. The point about the refund is that the most honorable thing for GG to do was to offer me a refund, I shouldn't even have to ask. And the second thing to do would be to *immediately* change the Linux product page and make it very clear that people may not even get TGB to work or compile on Linux, so that no one else would be tricked into thinking they were getting the same *usable* product as Windows and Mac users.
GG did neither of them.
The only thing that got changed was taht a phrase was added, stating that "The Linux version is community-supported". It's not enough and everyone here knows that, so let's not waste any more of our time with this.
It's not really about the money; it's the principle of it all. You guys have a great product but you need to straighten up your act and let your (future-)users know *exactly* what they're getting into.
I totally agree that's much more constructive to try and fix the errors than just whining about them and I usually do that. But to be honest, all this unnecessary confusion and feeling of frustration made my desire to work with TGB and TGE drop to such a low level that I don't even have them installed anymore.
Perhaps when/if a new project comes to my hands I'll give them another go but until then, I don't think I'll lose the feeling of frustration and the sensation of having been led into buying something that wasn't what I was promised.
Raul
EDIT:
PS - I did read Jeff's post about dropping the official Linux support. Also, about the refund, as I said, it's not about the money. I already stated several times that TGB and TGE are both great products and I agree that they're probably worth the effort. But the disappointment and frustration are still with me. Perhaps if I install them again and make the effort to give them a go, I'll be able to overcome it...
10/12/2006 (4:27 pm)
@Thomas: I can't really remember if I did or did not ask for a refund. I do know I mentioned it somewhere, along with the I-already-downloaded-the-code-so-I-can't-get-a-refund story and I *think* someone confirmed it.But that's not the point, here. The point about the refund is that the most honorable thing for GG to do was to offer me a refund, I shouldn't even have to ask. And the second thing to do would be to *immediately* change the Linux product page and make it very clear that people may not even get TGB to work or compile on Linux, so that no one else would be tricked into thinking they were getting the same *usable* product as Windows and Mac users.
GG did neither of them.
The only thing that got changed was taht a phrase was added, stating that "The Linux version is community-supported". It's not enough and everyone here knows that, so let's not waste any more of our time with this.
It's not really about the money; it's the principle of it all. You guys have a great product but you need to straighten up your act and let your (future-)users know *exactly* what they're getting into.
I totally agree that's much more constructive to try and fix the errors than just whining about them and I usually do that. But to be honest, all this unnecessary confusion and feeling of frustration made my desire to work with TGB and TGE drop to such a low level that I don't even have them installed anymore.
Perhaps when/if a new project comes to my hands I'll give them another go but until then, I don't think I'll lose the feeling of frustration and the sensation of having been led into buying something that wasn't what I was promised.
Raul
EDIT:
PS - I did read Jeff's post about dropping the official Linux support. Also, about the refund, as I said, it's not about the money. I already stated several times that TGB and TGE are both great products and I agree that they're probably worth the effort. But the disappointment and frustration are still with me. Perhaps if I install them again and make the effort to give them a go, I'll be able to overcome it...
#29
Your points have already been made, but a post like yours demands a response. Take a look at the earlier note where Jeff said that references to Linux support for TGB have been removed and that "We are the good guys and we do not want to have people like yourself feel ripped off. If you feel wronged, we will give you your money back." As this thread is repeating itself, I am closing it. Please feel free to call or email us if you have further concerns.
10/12/2006 (7:23 pm)
Raul,Your points have already been made, but a post like yours demands a response. Take a look at the earlier note where Jeff said that references to Linux support for TGB have been removed and that "We are the good guys and we do not want to have people like yourself feel ripped off. If you feel wronged, we will give you your money back." As this thread is repeating itself, I am closing it. Please feel free to call or email us if you have further concerns.
Torque Owner Christopher \"Pacula\" Corkum
Wow, just wow.
Thanks to everybody for all the responses and support. I'm -very- glad to see that I'm far from the only person who really cares about seeing TGB running on Linux (and games based on it) as well as the 'official' platforms.
- Christopher Corkum, SweetLeaf Studios