A few questions
by Chris Helms · in General Discussion · 04/22/2001 (3:37 pm) · 12 replies
Other than issues with licensing and fees(working so hard and having to pay your team and they don't sell the game, or they decide to take 50% of it and you have to divide the other half between your entire team), I am trying to get my questions down to just a few...
First of all I'd like to know the coding style of the engine to see if I can program with it.
Anywhere I can get this info?
There are three distinct styles I have seen.
Easy, Moderate, and hard, I expect this to be moderate or moderately hard at worst, on the scale of engines..
My team will need a 3DS MAX 3.1 and more importantly a MAX 4 plug in.
The engine can handle multiple types of games right? How about...
Racing, RPG, and other mixtures of vehicle based games? How about a game live Wave Race with the engines wave system?
Hope you guys can help, thanks in advance.
First of all I'd like to know the coding style of the engine to see if I can program with it.
Anywhere I can get this info?
There are three distinct styles I have seen.
Easy, Moderate, and hard, I expect this to be moderate or moderately hard at worst, on the scale of engines..
My team will need a 3DS MAX 3.1 and more importantly a MAX 4 plug in.
The engine can handle multiple types of games right? How about...
Racing, RPG, and other mixtures of vehicle based games? How about a game live Wave Race with the engines wave system?
Hope you guys can help, thanks in advance.
About the author
#2
That said however, it is a very object oriented engine so removing and replacing parts of the engine should be fairly painless. Also, you have the full source code so you can literally create anything and just use the pieces of the engine that are useful to you.
You should be able to create any type of game you want using the V12 engine but some types are going to take LOT of work to bend the engine into what you want. But, I foresee various "genres" of the V12 engine being built up over time (you download a RPG version of the V12 and you have to do a lot less work programming it to meet your needs than if you download a Space Sim version).
04/23/2001 (8:53 am)
Something to keep in mind is that the V12 was built with specific game types in mind (large terrains, lot of objects, some structures). There are likley to be certain parts of the engine that are optimized with this in mind since I'm sure they wanted to do this type of game extremely well rather than any type of game sorta well. One reason it is taking so long for the source code to get into our hands is b/c the Tribes 2 code is integrated into the engine code in places. They weren't trying to build a general game engine that they could plunk any type of game down on top of.That said however, it is a very object oriented engine so removing and replacing parts of the engine should be fairly painless. Also, you have the full source code so you can literally create anything and just use the pieces of the engine that are useful to you.
You should be able to create any type of game you want using the V12 engine but some types are going to take LOT of work to bend the engine into what you want. But, I foresee various "genres" of the V12 engine being built up over time (you download a RPG version of the V12 and you have to do a lot less work programming it to meet your needs than if you download a Space Sim version).
#3
04/23/2001 (9:21 am)
There is already a 3DS MAX 3.1 plugin and the 4.x plugin is a high priority (maybe not ready on release but should be soon afterwards).
#4
You give me physics and I give you AI.
Then its not just smart, but it looks good....
Hehe.
How much physics and AI comes with the engine?
This really effects the speed of game development, I'd rather not have to code much advanced physics and other stuff in myself.
If the engine is totally open source then I guess if you understood it you could probably create your own version of it pretty easily...
Is there any worry about someone using it and them not knowing it is their engine or their source? You could copy at least some source out of it and use it and who would know?
This is all very interesting...
04/23/2001 (5:12 pm)
I guess that means there will be a lot of code sharing...You give me physics and I give you AI.
Then its not just smart, but it looks good....
Hehe.
How much physics and AI comes with the engine?
This really effects the speed of game development, I'd rather not have to code much advanced physics and other stuff in myself.
If the engine is totally open source then I guess if you understood it you could probably create your own version of it pretty easily...
Is there any worry about someone using it and them not knowing it is their engine or their source? You could copy at least some source out of it and use it and who would know?
This is all very interesting...
#5
But the physics -- that's an integral part of a game engine. And as for the AI, I'd think that would be VERY important -- the bots in Tribes 2 can navigate in 3D space, not just on a flat plane, very well. They put a ton of work into the bot navigation (although not necessarily into the 'smarts' of the bot, such as responses to stimuli). That, at least, will probably be included.
I really look forward to a version of the engine with advanced AI -- I really want to be able to sneak like I could in Thief, hiding in hte shadows. :)
04/27/2001 (9:06 pm)
Well, I think they're keeping most of the vehicle code and all of the physics -- they're just removing anything that is Tribes 2 specific, ie skins, buildings, weapons, etc.But the physics -- that's an integral part of a game engine. And as for the AI, I'd think that would be VERY important -- the bots in Tribes 2 can navigate in 3D space, not just on a flat plane, very well. They put a ton of work into the bot navigation (although not necessarily into the 'smarts' of the bot, such as responses to stimuli). That, at least, will probably be included.
I really look forward to a version of the engine with advanced AI -- I really want to be able to sneak like I could in Thief, hiding in hte shadows. :)
#6
04/27/2001 (9:09 pm)
Hmm. Judging from the 'features' of the engine that are listed, I think that they're just going to remove content from the game -- anything that is GAME-SPECIFIC -- along with stuff like packet structure, which would make Tribes 2 easier to hack cheats for.
#7
Hopefully it won't be engine "versions" as such in some cases, but maybe add-ons to the engine, hopefully no modifications that change other parts would be made to any necessary part of the engine...
I'd like to be able to combine them to see what you can make with them.
04/28/2001 (1:31 am)
I hope they have some complex AI too.Hopefully it won't be engine "versions" as such in some cases, but maybe add-ons to the engine, hopefully no modifications that change other parts would be made to any necessary part of the engine...
I'd like to be able to combine them to see what you can make with them.
#8
Basically, the engine contains all of the resources you would use to create a smart bot -- you access those resources using scripts. I'm not sure what things are handled by the engine -- for instance, I would expect that things like prediction (used by turrets and AI) is a hardcoded function which is available from the script.
In fact, I'm sure it is. I remember that in Tribes it was -- although practically no AI navigation was included; basically bots were just homing turrets. :) That is why Spoonbot ran so slow -- it defined and processed advanced and basic AI functions in the script, whereas those basic functions are now included in the engine, and are accessible by script.
Things like bot navigation -- jet to position functions and so forth -- the capabilities are all engine stuff, but I think the interesting thing is that since the scripts are actually what run it, you could easily create a custom AI that doesn't know it has a jetpack, and doesn't try to use it, because you haven't told it to in the script.
So we probably won't have to write any low-level stuff -- and the high-level stuff, like goals, motivations, coordinating with teammates etc -- that stuff can be done in a script without slowing things down, since mostly it involves calling functions built into the engine.
Some things -- like hiding in shadows -- may not be supported by the engine. Now here's where it could get tricky. If there is not a way to determine or measure how 'lit' a player model is, you would probably have to write your own functions in script that continuously check the character's position relative to light sources -- or to do what Thief 2 did, and check the lightmap directly underneath the player's feet. Neither of those are great solutions, because they involve a large amount of processing being continuously handled by the script itself instead of calling hardcoded functions.
Whew. That went a bit longer than I thought it would, and looking back over it, it really isn't as useful as it might be. :) Oh, well, I drank too much coffee.
04/29/2001 (11:23 am)
Actually, I totally forgot something -- all of the V12 AI is handled with scripts.Basically, the engine contains all of the resources you would use to create a smart bot -- you access those resources using scripts. I'm not sure what things are handled by the engine -- for instance, I would expect that things like prediction (used by turrets and AI) is a hardcoded function which is available from the script.
In fact, I'm sure it is. I remember that in Tribes it was -- although practically no AI navigation was included; basically bots were just homing turrets. :) That is why Spoonbot ran so slow -- it defined and processed advanced and basic AI functions in the script, whereas those basic functions are now included in the engine, and are accessible by script.
Things like bot navigation -- jet to position functions and so forth -- the capabilities are all engine stuff, but I think the interesting thing is that since the scripts are actually what run it, you could easily create a custom AI that doesn't know it has a jetpack, and doesn't try to use it, because you haven't told it to in the script.
So we probably won't have to write any low-level stuff -- and the high-level stuff, like goals, motivations, coordinating with teammates etc -- that stuff can be done in a script without slowing things down, since mostly it involves calling functions built into the engine.
Some things -- like hiding in shadows -- may not be supported by the engine. Now here's where it could get tricky. If there is not a way to determine or measure how 'lit' a player model is, you would probably have to write your own functions in script that continuously check the character's position relative to light sources -- or to do what Thief 2 did, and check the lightmap directly underneath the player's feet. Neither of those are great solutions, because they involve a large amount of processing being continuously handled by the script itself instead of calling hardcoded functions.
Whew. That went a bit longer than I thought it would, and looking back over it, it really isn't as useful as it might be. :) Oh, well, I drank too much coffee.
#9
04/30/2001 (4:05 am)
So it has its own scripting language? I don't totally understand, but I think I might.
#10
Yes, like UT, Tribes 2 has an extensive scripting language. For instance, those great UT mods people play weren't made by hacking the UT source code -- they run off of scripts that control the actual program, change gameplay, sometimes (when supported) change gravity.
If you don't know scripting yet, you'd better start learning. Buy Tribes 2 and open up some of the included scripts. They are a pretty good demonstration of the power of V12 scripting.
04/30/2001 (9:18 pm)
Hehe -- sorry, I keep thinking everyone here is familiar with the Tribes family.Yes, like UT, Tribes 2 has an extensive scripting language. For instance, those great UT mods people play weren't made by hacking the UT source code -- they run off of scripts that control the actual program, change gameplay, sometimes (when supported) change gravity.
If you don't know scripting yet, you'd better start learning. Buy Tribes 2 and open up some of the included scripts. They are a pretty good demonstration of the power of V12 scripting.
#11
I'd rather buy a PC or PS2 game that will help me get ideas for modeling....
Can you post a demo of simple/complex scripting? I might be able to do it easily, but if it is hard or something I just might buy the game...
05/01/2001 (4:59 am)
I don't want to buy a game I probably won't enjoy... =(I'd rather buy a PC or PS2 game that will help me get ideas for modeling....
Can you post a demo of simple/complex scripting? I might be able to do it easily, but if it is hard or something I just might buy the game...
#12
Frankly, if you have any OO C++/Java programming experience at all and understand how scripting languages work in general, you'll be able to pick it up fairly quickly.
Even if you don't like Tribes 2 as a game -- which, without overgeneralizing, would mean that you are a stupid person -- it is a WORKING EXAMPLE of a finished game using the V12 engine. Everything is handled in the script. In fact, if you do an FPS, you will find everything you need to know in the Tribes 2 scripts. AI, weapons, vehicles, GUI creation -- it's all there.
It is entirely possible to create a game without ever recompiling the source code; just using scripting.
Definitely, buy the game. If not for the gameplay, which is better than any FPS ever (except for the original Tribes), buy it because it is a living, breathing example of what you can do with the V12 engine -- and one that you can really pick apart and examine the guts of, script-wise.
05/01/2001 (12:31 pm)
The scripting is very intuitive for a programmer. It's structured like C++, actually -- and if you've done Tribes 1 scripting, it's very easy, just more powerful.Frankly, if you have any OO C++/Java programming experience at all and understand how scripting languages work in general, you'll be able to pick it up fairly quickly.
Even if you don't like Tribes 2 as a game -- which, without overgeneralizing, would mean that you are a stupid person -- it is a WORKING EXAMPLE of a finished game using the V12 engine. Everything is handled in the script. In fact, if you do an FPS, you will find everything you need to know in the Tribes 2 scripts. AI, weapons, vehicles, GUI creation -- it's all there.
It is entirely possible to create a game without ever recompiling the source code; just using scripting.
Definitely, buy the game. If not for the gameplay, which is better than any FPS ever (except for the original Tribes), buy it because it is a living, breathing example of what you can do with the V12 engine -- and one that you can really pick apart and examine the guts of, script-wise.
Chris Helms
We have been writing a story for a massive RPG since january 2000, it still needs work, but it is one of the best stories I've seen already, if we had the resources, I'd like to make it, and this seems to be the engine to handle it.
We'd need lots of models.
Literally, hundreds, if not more, of animated characters and enemies in multiple settings.
We also have some great game ideas for a Space Sim, if the engine can handle it, and multiple other types of games.