A few questions
by Chris Helms · in Torque Game Engine · 04/22/2001 (3:27 pm) · 10 replies
I am thinking about buying the engine...
I first have to know if I can program in it well, and the type of engine system, is there anywhere I can get this information?
I am worried about the 50/50 profit issue.
I spend months developing a game with my team, sell 2000 copies, split in half to $25,000, then divided between my team, leaves me with $5000 if I am lucky.
And that is if you even sell that many!
For 50% of my game, how much does garagegames do to sell it?
Does it advertise it in any way or do I have to pay more of my own money to do that?
Also, there is a problem with, if it isn't good enough, you don't make any money because garagegames gives it away or something like that.
I would want selling rights to it if garagegames didn't want to sell it. I would have to spend months programming games and have to pay my team still and not get any money.
What options do you have at that point?
Also, my team will need a 3DS MAX 3.1 and especially a MAX 4 plug-in before we even think about buying it.
I first have to know if I can program in it well, and the type of engine system, is there anywhere I can get this information?
I am worried about the 50/50 profit issue.
I spend months developing a game with my team, sell 2000 copies, split in half to $25,000, then divided between my team, leaves me with $5000 if I am lucky.
And that is if you even sell that many!
For 50% of my game, how much does garagegames do to sell it?
Does it advertise it in any way or do I have to pay more of my own money to do that?
Also, there is a problem with, if it isn't good enough, you don't make any money because garagegames gives it away or something like that.
I would want selling rights to it if garagegames didn't want to sell it. I would have to spend months programming games and have to pay my team still and not get any money.
What options do you have at that point?
Also, my team will need a 3DS MAX 3.1 and especially a MAX 4 plug-in before we even think about buying it.
About the author
#2
If you were in MacDonald's, and you didn't like the price of their happy meal, would you start complaining that you didn't have enough money, and they should charge less? GarageGames is a business too, and they have decided on this price. Deal with it.
To me, it's worth a 50% split to use a professionally developed engine that has literally thousands of hours of development in it. To write that on my own simply isn't feasible.
I agree with you on one thing. I am a little concerned about how exactly the price will be determined, and who makes the call whether a game becomes a free product. Anyone from GarageGames care to discuss this process?
04/22/2001 (5:20 pm)
These are your own business problems you're talking about. You need to be the one to make the decisions. If you feel you can't make money on this engine, go use a different one. There's plenty of shareware ones out there to use. Or write your own.If you were in MacDonald's, and you didn't like the price of their happy meal, would you start complaining that you didn't have enough money, and they should charge less? GarageGames is a business too, and they have decided on this price. Deal with it.
To me, it's worth a 50% split to use a professionally developed engine that has literally thousands of hours of development in it. To write that on my own simply isn't feasible.
I agree with you on one thing. I am a little concerned about how exactly the price will be determined, and who makes the call whether a game becomes a free product. Anyone from GarageGames care to discuss this process?
#3
As for GarageGames, think about how they make their money? If they put your game out for free, and it is saleable, they are shooting themselves in the foot as much as you. If you look at all the projects that get started out there and never finished, I am sure they will be pumped as all hell to have something finished and worth selling.
The profit path here is not making a game that they sell on GarageGames alone. If money is the goal, and it is not for everyone here, then you need to be shooting for the retail publishing deal on the far side.
Is this the best contract in the world? Hell no. But this place is an incubator and a proving ground. Make a good game here, and the next deal will probably be better.
04/22/2001 (5:29 pm)
If you are only looking to sell 2000 copies and have that support a company, you have a serious delusion going on. There is NO publisher who would back a project with such low expectations and I am sure that there is no way a business could be run like that. Even if it's a 100% profit and it's 10k instead of 5, big deal.As for GarageGames, think about how they make their money? If they put your game out for free, and it is saleable, they are shooting themselves in the foot as much as you. If you look at all the projects that get started out there and never finished, I am sure they will be pumped as all hell to have something finished and worth selling.
The profit path here is not making a game that they sell on GarageGames alone. If money is the goal, and it is not for everyone here, then you need to be shooting for the retail publishing deal on the far side.
Is this the best contract in the world? Hell no. But this place is an incubator and a proving ground. Make a good game here, and the next deal will probably be better.
#4
Except Matthew, you are a bit harsh, I'm not complaining, just worried about it. Sorry if I caught you in a bad mood.
This is what I was looking for now that I think of it.
Low up front cost, and they make their money marketing it for you and taking a percentage.
They decide how much your game sells for huh?
I just used 2000 as a lower example, I'd expect much more from anything we made.
I think I will buy it if I think I can program with it well.
GarageGames would be loosing too much money to make decisions that are against our goals...
They couldn't screw up your plans too much.
Hmmm.
I hate to have to make a game and worry about pirating issues, but I'd prefer the game to be on CD, as would most people...
04/22/2001 (9:39 pm)
You guys made some good points.Except Matthew, you are a bit harsh, I'm not complaining, just worried about it. Sorry if I caught you in a bad mood.
This is what I was looking for now that I think of it.
Low up front cost, and they make their money marketing it for you and taking a percentage.
They decide how much your game sells for huh?
I just used 2000 as a lower example, I'd expect much more from anything we made.
I think I will buy it if I think I can program with it well.
GarageGames would be loosing too much money to make decisions that are against our goals...
They couldn't screw up your plans too much.
Hmmm.
I hate to have to make a game and worry about pirating issues, but I'd prefer the game to be on CD, as would most people...
#5
The V12 engine won't be some kind of tutorial for script kiddies and wannabe game programmers. There's going to be some hard core technology in it: tough algorithms and code that is going to be difficult to understand let alone amend.
Game engines are non-trivial to develop, the V12 engine has taken years to reach this stage -- years of work from highly skilled and experience developers -- and you are being given the opportunity to purchase it in it's entirety for $100, yet you keep complaining about how much money you're going to make.
I think you would be better served by taking a different perspective on the situation. When you ask the question (on several forums) "I need to know whether I can program with it" it says to me that you're just starting out. If this really is the case, you should consider that you have no skills, no experience and no reputation in the game industry. No game publisher in their right mind is going to offer you a better deal than this one.
Think of it this way: You get a commercial game engine with a proven track record for $100. You get the opportunity to try to put your ideas together and produce a game. If it's any good, GarageGames will publish it and you'll make a little money. Better yet, you'll have begun the process of establishing your reputation in the gaming industry. Forget pirating, think experience and reputation.
04/22/2001 (10:45 pm)
Chris, I don't think Matthews comments are harsh at all.The V12 engine won't be some kind of tutorial for script kiddies and wannabe game programmers. There's going to be some hard core technology in it: tough algorithms and code that is going to be difficult to understand let alone amend.
Game engines are non-trivial to develop, the V12 engine has taken years to reach this stage -- years of work from highly skilled and experience developers -- and you are being given the opportunity to purchase it in it's entirety for $100, yet you keep complaining about how much money you're going to make.
I think you would be better served by taking a different perspective on the situation. When you ask the question (on several forums) "I need to know whether I can program with it" it says to me that you're just starting out. If this really is the case, you should consider that you have no skills, no experience and no reputation in the game industry. No game publisher in their right mind is going to offer you a better deal than this one.
Think of it this way: You get a commercial game engine with a proven track record for $100. You get the opportunity to try to put your ideas together and produce a game. If it's any good, GarageGames will publish it and you'll make a little money. Better yet, you'll have begun the process of establishing your reputation in the gaming industry. Forget pirating, think experience and reputation.
#6
Sorry.
I know engines are hard to develop, I have a friend who was trying to make one, it would take years....
>When you ask the question (on several forums) "I need to know whether I can program with it" it says to me that you're just starting out.
I know I can program with it, just not easily is the point.
I have experience in OOP and AI and that sort of thing, and have multiple talents when it comes to game developing.
You should see some AI I've coded, nothing *special*, but not for beginners for sure.
Not many people understand complex code that they didn't write unless they really have a look at it and it is well documented.
I have my own company as well, so there is more than just programming involved in my part.
I just want to know what style it is, and if I don't think I can handle it easily, I can have someone else program the project.
I get your points, my company currently has very little reputation, we are working on a project right now, working with companies involved with Hasbro and MCA, and developing their own engine, and we hope that we may use that engine.
The engine is extremely simple to use but it of course is no where nearly as complete as this one.
After looking at this engine deal harder, I do see it is the best deal if you have little money or little reputation, but have talent.
Reputation isn't too much of a deal if your game is good.
I am totally confident in my capabilities as a programmer, and I can learn something new extremely fast.
My company is just starting out, but I have proven how quickly I accelerate in the gaming industry.
I don't mean to brag, just to defend my self as established and able.
Sorry again for that...
I was hoping for a slightly warmer welcome, hehe.
I think many people who first see this are wondering how it works and if it will work for them, which is what I was wondering, but I think I might have rushed into it by asking questions like that maybe.
My friend told me to talk to the forum and get details from you all.
Thanks, this has been very educational.
I just want to know one or two more things before I decide what to do.
These things are the style of programming (function based, class based, or high level OOP with multiple threads and everything independent) and the ease of getting the meshes and scenes into the engine and rendering it.
I am also wondering what the options are once you have them in, the rage of editing, BSP tree info if it has one, dynamic BSP info(so you can move objects and still use the BSP) and the sort of feel of the engine itself.
If any one of you could post a little source I'd greatly appreciate it.
04/22/2001 (11:29 pm)
I think you guys are taking it too seriously.Sorry.
I know engines are hard to develop, I have a friend who was trying to make one, it would take years....
>When you ask the question (on several forums) "I need to know whether I can program with it" it says to me that you're just starting out.
I know I can program with it, just not easily is the point.
I have experience in OOP and AI and that sort of thing, and have multiple talents when it comes to game developing.
You should see some AI I've coded, nothing *special*, but not for beginners for sure.
Not many people understand complex code that they didn't write unless they really have a look at it and it is well documented.
I have my own company as well, so there is more than just programming involved in my part.
I just want to know what style it is, and if I don't think I can handle it easily, I can have someone else program the project.
I get your points, my company currently has very little reputation, we are working on a project right now, working with companies involved with Hasbro and MCA, and developing their own engine, and we hope that we may use that engine.
The engine is extremely simple to use but it of course is no where nearly as complete as this one.
After looking at this engine deal harder, I do see it is the best deal if you have little money or little reputation, but have talent.
Reputation isn't too much of a deal if your game is good.
I am totally confident in my capabilities as a programmer, and I can learn something new extremely fast.
My company is just starting out, but I have proven how quickly I accelerate in the gaming industry.
I don't mean to brag, just to defend my self as established and able.
Sorry again for that...
I was hoping for a slightly warmer welcome, hehe.
I think many people who first see this are wondering how it works and if it will work for them, which is what I was wondering, but I think I might have rushed into it by asking questions like that maybe.
My friend told me to talk to the forum and get details from you all.
Thanks, this has been very educational.
I just want to know one or two more things before I decide what to do.
These things are the style of programming (function based, class based, or high level OOP with multiple threads and everything independent) and the ease of getting the meshes and scenes into the engine and rendering it.
I am also wondering what the options are once you have them in, the rage of editing, BSP tree info if it has one, dynamic BSP info(so you can move objects and still use the BSP) and the sort of feel of the engine itself.
If any one of you could post a little source I'd greatly appreciate it.
#7
Sorry if I came off as overly harsh. There have been a number of people complaining about one part of the license or another...I think by now, every line in the agreement has been objected to. ;) Guess I was getting a little testy about it, and you just happened to catch it. ;)
The problem is that more people on this board (well, at least the complaining ones) need to think long term. If you work for 12 months to make a game that sells 100 copies, you end up with $2000 for the year. Yeah, that sucks
But think about this...you now have $2000 to put back into your company, and do a better job on the next game. Not only that, the game is still out there, selling copies, and bringing in more money. If you can make 3-4 of these games, all of a sudden, you have a revenue stream for your company.
No, you can't quit your day job, and pay an entire team's salaries for a year. But you can work on games on the side, and slowly build up your company, your reputation, and your skills.
04/23/2001 (1:53 pm)
Chris,Sorry if I came off as overly harsh. There have been a number of people complaining about one part of the license or another...I think by now, every line in the agreement has been objected to. ;) Guess I was getting a little testy about it, and you just happened to catch it. ;)
The problem is that more people on this board (well, at least the complaining ones) need to think long term. If you work for 12 months to make a game that sells 100 copies, you end up with $2000 for the year. Yeah, that sucks
But think about this...you now have $2000 to put back into your company, and do a better job on the next game. Not only that, the game is still out there, selling copies, and bringing in more money. If you can make 3-4 of these games, all of a sudden, you have a revenue stream for your company.
No, you can't quit your day job, and pay an entire team's salaries for a year. But you can work on games on the side, and slowly build up your company, your reputation, and your skills.
#8
In another topic we said how you get only 5% of your games profit on the shelves and sell too few off the shelves with online sales, you make too little money with this deal, the only reason to really go through with it is to get a little money, not enough, and then have a reputation, and maybe get a loan or a publisher to invest for a new engine, a new deal, or maybe renegotiate with garage games, or maybe then Sierra would want to hire you or something.
Either way, GG makes their money.
Sierra is bound to take out a large portion of profit, at least 60% is my guess.
If I made enough money, I'd offer to buy the engine for use for infinite games for around $25,000, and if they turned me down, bye bye GG, hello another engine, and they made all the money they would be getting from me...
04/23/2001 (4:24 pm)
But if you have no job on the side...In another topic we said how you get only 5% of your games profit on the shelves and sell too few off the shelves with online sales, you make too little money with this deal, the only reason to really go through with it is to get a little money, not enough, and then have a reputation, and maybe get a loan or a publisher to invest for a new engine, a new deal, or maybe renegotiate with garage games, or maybe then Sierra would want to hire you or something.
Either way, GG makes their money.
Sierra is bound to take out a large portion of profit, at least 60% is my guess.
If I made enough money, I'd offer to buy the engine for use for infinite games for around $25,000, and if they turned me down, bye bye GG, hello another engine, and they made all the money they would be getting from me...
#9
Im in a simular situation as you[startup company].The main deal for this GG network is not to make money..They want to build up the gsming industry by contirbuting talented to the community.In return for this tremendous engine,they just get little profit,and whats wrong with that?hey they got to pay off their fined too.They dont just hire people to make a great engine for nothing.Also as point out already,this is a first step process to gain reputation.I dont do this for money..I do this for the reputation.think about it.If you made your first project,and its a great title,sure you get little money at first but then you also earn your trust,meaning your next title will definitely get paid off.I understand that you have issues with your company,however you just got to tell them that its a risk.If they dont accept it then too bad,i guess you have a immature team.
05/20/2001 (11:00 am)
Ok chris,I dont understand how you can even complain..Im in a simular situation as you[startup company].The main deal for this GG network is not to make money..They want to build up the gsming industry by contirbuting talented to the community.In return for this tremendous engine,they just get little profit,and whats wrong with that?hey they got to pay off their fined too.They dont just hire people to make a great engine for nothing.Also as point out already,this is a first step process to gain reputation.I dont do this for money..I do this for the reputation.think about it.If you made your first project,and its a great title,sure you get little money at first but then you also earn your trust,meaning your next title will definitely get paid off.I understand that you have issues with your company,however you just got to tell them that its a risk.If they dont accept it then too bad,i guess you have a immature team.
#10
I'm going to be nice and not respond to much of this...
I could really get mad or argue a lot, but that wouldn't accomplish anything....
I get your point, I guess some people need the money more than others.
05/22/2001 (2:14 pm)
*yawn*I'm going to be nice and not respond to much of this...
I could really get mad or argue a lot, but that wouldn't accomplish anything....
I get your point, I guess some people need the money more than others.
Robert