Hello to everyone
by Eddie Yasi · in General Discussion · 08/29/2006 (3:41 pm) · 14 replies
Hi everyone,
I've had great fun with lots of games over the years, but more and more have been feeling the urge to not just consume other people's games but maybe get creative on my own. I don't have any grandiose plans to make the next great FPS, MMORPG, or whatever, I just want to actually try *making* something of my own, even if I'm the only one who ever sees it. (Sure I'd love to make something tons of people have fun with, but, first things first, let's see if I can just walk before running...)
I'm a developer at work (boring financial apps for the most part), and one reason I don't have any preconceived notions over what I will or won't be able to do is because I can really appreciate the immense effort that goes into even the simplest of modern games. I'm constantly amazed at the effort lots of you are putting into this ON TOP of your current day job.
I've been hunting for the right tool or suite of tools to help make things a little more do-able, and had narrowed it down to Torque, TV3D, Beyond Virtual, and C4. It was a tough decision, because I think each of these products has a lot going for it, but in the end I chose Torque.
One significant factor in choosing it was the large, dynamic, and very helpful community I saw on these forums. So, this is my long winded way of saying 'thanks' to you all for helping me come to that decision, even though I was just a lurker in the background.
I have TONS of newbie-like stuff to do (I "pigged out" and got TGE, TSE, Showtool Pro and the TGE Lighting Kit, so there's waaaay too much fun to be had...), and I'm sure I'll be popping up with questions before long.
Anyways, thanks again, and I look forward to diving in!
-Eddie
I've had great fun with lots of games over the years, but more and more have been feeling the urge to not just consume other people's games but maybe get creative on my own. I don't have any grandiose plans to make the next great FPS, MMORPG, or whatever, I just want to actually try *making* something of my own, even if I'm the only one who ever sees it. (Sure I'd love to make something tons of people have fun with, but, first things first, let's see if I can just walk before running...)
I'm a developer at work (boring financial apps for the most part), and one reason I don't have any preconceived notions over what I will or won't be able to do is because I can really appreciate the immense effort that goes into even the simplest of modern games. I'm constantly amazed at the effort lots of you are putting into this ON TOP of your current day job.
I've been hunting for the right tool or suite of tools to help make things a little more do-able, and had narrowed it down to Torque, TV3D, Beyond Virtual, and C4. It was a tough decision, because I think each of these products has a lot going for it, but in the end I chose Torque.
One significant factor in choosing it was the large, dynamic, and very helpful community I saw on these forums. So, this is my long winded way of saying 'thanks' to you all for helping me come to that decision, even though I was just a lurker in the background.
I have TONS of newbie-like stuff to do (I "pigged out" and got TGE, TSE, Showtool Pro and the TGE Lighting Kit, so there's waaaay too much fun to be had...), and I'm sure I'll be popping up with questions before long.
Anyways, thanks again, and I look forward to diving in!
-Eddie
#2
The Trusted One
08/30/2006 (3:08 pm)
Dont get too daunted by the learning curve, were here for you!The Trusted One
#3
One quick question: In going through some various beginner tutorials, I've already hit 3 separate recommendations for how to edit Torquescript: Kenneth Finney's book uses UltraEdit, another tutorial recommended JEdit with the TIDE plugin, and I saw another tutorial that mentioned Tribal IDE.
What is the most commonly used method for authoring Torquescript, one of these, or something else?
Thanks again for the great community! I'm definitely having fun wading through it all....
08/30/2006 (3:15 pm)
It's amazing some of the reviews for Torque over at devmaster complained about lack of documentation. There's an almost OVER abundance of it! :-)One quick question: In going through some various beginner tutorials, I've already hit 3 separate recommendations for how to edit Torquescript: Kenneth Finney's book uses UltraEdit, another tutorial recommended JEdit with the TIDE plugin, and I saw another tutorial that mentioned Tribal IDE.
What is the most commonly used method for authoring Torquescript, one of these, or something else?
Thanks again for the great community! I'm definitely having fun wading through it all....
#4
08/30/2006 (3:27 pm)
I would use either Torsion or Codeweaver. Both are based around torque and are excellent. The book, and i suspect the tutorials, were writen before these tools where availiable.
#5
08/30/2006 (3:41 pm)
Codeweaver and Torion are sweet, and already configured. go with one of these or both.
#6
I just searched 'Torsion' on Google and the first entry was for 'Testicular Torsion'. Suddenly I feel a little queasy.....
In any case, thanks for the tip! I think I'll give Torsion (the editor, not the other one) a try....
08/30/2006 (3:41 pm)
Lol, I'm already amused that I saw 3 separate recommendations, and now it turns out that the answer is 'none of the above'.... I just searched 'Torsion' on Google and the first entry was for 'Testicular Torsion'. Suddenly I feel a little queasy.....
In any case, thanks for the tip! I think I'll give Torsion (the editor, not the other one) a try....
#7
However, for a beginner, you may find both of these tools frustrating. They are both currently under heavy developer, from what I know, and both have there "issues" -- Torsion, for example has "ScriptSense" (IntelliSense ...) that does not always work and Codeweaver has the same, but oddly, they both have different items listed for the same script -- this could be confusing and both irritating.
I would suggest learning TorqueScript with something such as Notepad, or perhaps a simple text editor that supports syntax highlighting (and is perhaps free?) such as UltraEdit or another -- any syntax highlighting editor that has a way highlight C++ or PHP should work just fine.
Just my personal opinion ... from a guy whose been there before :)
08/30/2006 (4:25 pm)
@Eddie, as is with most langauges, you can edit in whatever you feel most comfortable in. For a beginner, it may be easier for you to start with something that helps you out a bit more then not, such as Torsion (www.sickheadgames.com) or Codeweaver. However, for a beginner, you may find both of these tools frustrating. They are both currently under heavy developer, from what I know, and both have there "issues" -- Torsion, for example has "ScriptSense" (IntelliSense ...) that does not always work and Codeweaver has the same, but oddly, they both have different items listed for the same script -- this could be confusing and both irritating.
I would suggest learning TorqueScript with something such as Notepad, or perhaps a simple text editor that supports syntax highlighting (and is perhaps free?) such as UltraEdit or another -- any syntax highlighting editor that has a way highlight C++ or PHP should work just fine.
Just my personal opinion ... from a guy whose been there before :)
#9
08/30/2006 (5:13 pm)
Welcome the land of Torqueing. I use Tribal as do Mike Rowely, it alot easier for me.
#10
but since there's already a thread like this right here, I thought I'd just ask:
If I have creative skills, but no real programming background (unless basic and pascal from like 2o years ago counts) then does it sound like A6 is better for me than torque?
I would be working alone as a hobbyist. I'm guessing a multiplayer project might be too insanely difficult, but all my designs keep drifting that way. Torque projects look great, but I don't have the head for intense mathematics or learning a new language in depth.
I have a professional background in the games industry though. I have left it behind for good. My talents are mostly geared toward writing and art (animation with some modeling skills as well), and I did enjoy getting into level and game design in general. I have contributed to projects in a positive way along those lines.
Is there a game engine that offers a professional look, and allows complex design with an interface that is intuitive to the non-programmer, maybe even not too more advanced beyond point-an-click?
Again, sorry to intrude. Any insight would be appreciated.
09/03/2006 (6:03 pm)
Hi all, I KNOW that this is annoying and I do apologize profusely in advance...but since there's already a thread like this right here, I thought I'd just ask:
If I have creative skills, but no real programming background (unless basic and pascal from like 2o years ago counts) then does it sound like A6 is better for me than torque?
I would be working alone as a hobbyist. I'm guessing a multiplayer project might be too insanely difficult, but all my designs keep drifting that way. Torque projects look great, but I don't have the head for intense mathematics or learning a new language in depth.
I have a professional background in the games industry though. I have left it behind for good. My talents are mostly geared toward writing and art (animation with some modeling skills as well), and I did enjoy getting into level and game design in general. I have contributed to projects in a positive way along those lines.
Is there a game engine that offers a professional look, and allows complex design with an interface that is intuitive to the non-programmer, maybe even not too more advanced beyond point-an-click?
Again, sorry to intrude. Any insight would be appreciated.
#11
Take for example, the tutorial, it shows you how to build a Break Out game using pre-made graphics that come bundled with the demo -- the tutorial says it's an hour long read, I finished it in 20 minutes and had a completely working Break Out game. I then attempted the next day to re-create the demo from the ground up, without the docs in front of me and accomplished my goal in 5 minutes -- now, keep in mind, I'm an IT professional and can whip through Windows applications like a hot knife through butter ... "I'm faster then the average Bear" ...
But, for game logic, you don't have to write any code what so ever -- it's all point and click design ... for the ball'
s motion, you just simply enabled a "motion" property and told it to "bounce" ... for collisions, you create a new "event condition" and tell it "when the ball collides with the wall, then bounce" and ... "when the ball collides with a brick, add points to score object and destroy brick object and bounce" ... it's literally that simple, and everything is "point and click", and it also has the ability to do much more advanced things -- Multimedia Fusion would be an upgrade to "The Games Factory 2" allowing for more control and advanced options, as well as extensions that allow you to do even more dramatic things like pathfinding and object seeking, distance and rotation calculations, etc, etc ...
I am not advertising this, just simply answering Walt's question.
I personally found the system to be quite amusing and very quick to pick up, a tad confusing for me, as I'm a coder ... but I was able to throw together a real quick game for my 4 year old in a little under 2 hours -- I've not yet been able to do that with TGB (6 hours is as little time as I've pulled off with TGB).
So, if your looking for an even simpler solution, perhaps that may be one of them -- performance wise though, TGB would kick "The Games Factory" butt, no questions asked ... TGF2 has a very "shockwave" feel to it, where TGB has more of a "traditional" feel to it ...
09/03/2006 (6:17 pm)
@Walt, odd you asked -- I just tried out "The Games Factory 2" from ClickTeam and it's exactly just that, "point and click" game design. It is somewhat similiar to TGB in that you can drag/drop your graphics and 'objects' onto a 'scene', but it differs greatly in that it's got a very "Macromedia Flash" feel to it (Storylines, Events, etc).Take for example, the tutorial, it shows you how to build a Break Out game using pre-made graphics that come bundled with the demo -- the tutorial says it's an hour long read, I finished it in 20 minutes and had a completely working Break Out game. I then attempted the next day to re-create the demo from the ground up, without the docs in front of me and accomplished my goal in 5 minutes -- now, keep in mind, I'm an IT professional and can whip through Windows applications like a hot knife through butter ... "I'm faster then the average Bear" ...
But, for game logic, you don't have to write any code what so ever -- it's all point and click design ... for the ball'
s motion, you just simply enabled a "motion" property and told it to "bounce" ... for collisions, you create a new "event condition" and tell it "when the ball collides with the wall, then bounce" and ... "when the ball collides with a brick, add points to score object and destroy brick object and bounce" ... it's literally that simple, and everything is "point and click", and it also has the ability to do much more advanced things -- Multimedia Fusion would be an upgrade to "The Games Factory 2" allowing for more control and advanced options, as well as extensions that allow you to do even more dramatic things like pathfinding and object seeking, distance and rotation calculations, etc, etc ...
I am not advertising this, just simply answering Walt's question.
I personally found the system to be quite amusing and very quick to pick up, a tad confusing for me, as I'm a coder ... but I was able to throw together a real quick game for my 4 year old in a little under 2 hours -- I've not yet been able to do that with TGB (6 hours is as little time as I've pulled off with TGB).
So, if your looking for an even simpler solution, perhaps that may be one of them -- performance wise though, TGB would kick "The Games Factory" butt, no questions asked ... TGF2 has a very "shockwave" feel to it, where TGB has more of a "traditional" feel to it ...
#12
Pure point-and-click game development is going to be very limited, at least from what I've seen. Unless you want to build very simple games, you'll need to dive into some form of scripting at the very least.
If I had to pick the easier to use yet still powerful tools I ran across while doing my research, I'd say that Unity (http://www.unity3d.com) was the easiest to use while still offering a ton of features. BUT, it has a couple major gotchas: it runs on a Mac, and it's expensive.
You can target your game for either PC or Mac, but Unity itself only runs on the Mac. For $250 you can develop games that will work either standalone or in a browser on the Mac, and only in a browser-based client on the PC (although they can switch to full screen once loaded). You need to buy the $1500 version to build standalone executables for the PC as well as the Mac. Having said that, Unity is quite amazing in its combination of ease of use with a very powerful set of features. It also has *excellent* documentation. You have a choice of scripting in Javascript, C# (yes, even though they're on the Mac! They use Mono...), or 'Boo', whatever the heck that is. They have a sizeable community that is quite active.
While I do have a Mac as well as my PC, I decided against Unity for now because my Mac is not as powerful as my PC, and I'm not sure I want to spend that much money at this time. (Perhaps bonus time next year....)
Another engine with some potential is Beyond Virtual (http://www.beyondvirtual.com). It's only $150, but is still in beta. It seems to be shaping up to be similar to Unity, but it is PC-based, definitely far less polished and still has its quirks. It does have a nicely streamlined workflow for getting art assets into the game. (For example you can directly load things created in Lightwave (or other popular 3d apps) in their native formats, no converting needed.) I also like the general layout and feel of their tools. The documentation is still sparse, but they seem to be working hard at whipping it into shape, and it's improving steadily. They use a c-style language called 'AngelScript'. They have a very small but very devoted community.
I did end up getting a BV license, but decided to concentrate on Torque in the meantime because it's a far more mature product, and for the other reasons I mentioned in my initial post.
If you are leaning towards a networked multiplayer game, that would lead me to definitely recommend Torque, even though it is going to be a steeper learning curve, because making networked games is one of its strengths in comparison to almost any other inexpensive tools out there.
You just have to bite the bullet and start learning. (I'm just getting going too....working through '3d game programming all in one' right now, and then have 'game programmer's guide to torque' next.)
Whatever you decide, good luck and I hope you have fun!
09/03/2006 (7:22 pm)
Walt,Pure point-and-click game development is going to be very limited, at least from what I've seen. Unless you want to build very simple games, you'll need to dive into some form of scripting at the very least.
If I had to pick the easier to use yet still powerful tools I ran across while doing my research, I'd say that Unity (http://www.unity3d.com) was the easiest to use while still offering a ton of features. BUT, it has a couple major gotchas: it runs on a Mac, and it's expensive.
You can target your game for either PC or Mac, but Unity itself only runs on the Mac. For $250 you can develop games that will work either standalone or in a browser on the Mac, and only in a browser-based client on the PC (although they can switch to full screen once loaded). You need to buy the $1500 version to build standalone executables for the PC as well as the Mac. Having said that, Unity is quite amazing in its combination of ease of use with a very powerful set of features. It also has *excellent* documentation. You have a choice of scripting in Javascript, C# (yes, even though they're on the Mac! They use Mono...), or 'Boo', whatever the heck that is. They have a sizeable community that is quite active.
While I do have a Mac as well as my PC, I decided against Unity for now because my Mac is not as powerful as my PC, and I'm not sure I want to spend that much money at this time. (Perhaps bonus time next year....)
Another engine with some potential is Beyond Virtual (http://www.beyondvirtual.com). It's only $150, but is still in beta. It seems to be shaping up to be similar to Unity, but it is PC-based, definitely far less polished and still has its quirks. It does have a nicely streamlined workflow for getting art assets into the game. (For example you can directly load things created in Lightwave (or other popular 3d apps) in their native formats, no converting needed.) I also like the general layout and feel of their tools. The documentation is still sparse, but they seem to be working hard at whipping it into shape, and it's improving steadily. They use a c-style language called 'AngelScript'. They have a very small but very devoted community.
I did end up getting a BV license, but decided to concentrate on Torque in the meantime because it's a far more mature product, and for the other reasons I mentioned in my initial post.
If you are leaning towards a networked multiplayer game, that would lead me to definitely recommend Torque, even though it is going to be a steeper learning curve, because making networked games is one of its strengths in comparison to almost any other inexpensive tools out there.
You just have to bite the bullet and start learning. (I'm just getting going too....working through '3d game programming all in one' right now, and then have 'game programmer's guide to torque' next.)
Whatever you decide, good luck and I hope you have fun!
#13
Thank you both for your time and insight! I have a lot to think about.
I'm actually split now between either Multimedia Fusion, Torque, or Torque Game Builder...
I really wanted to go 3D and multiplayer...and that would mean torque. And learning to code right off the bat...
But perhaps I should cut my teeth on something simple in 2d on a point and click interface...
I'm wobbling on the fence. So I'll just go back to lurking and gleaning info for awhile.
Your shared knowledge and opinions were GREATLY appreciated.
_Walt
09/07/2006 (7:35 pm)
David, and Eddie,Thank you both for your time and insight! I have a lot to think about.
I'm actually split now between either Multimedia Fusion, Torque, or Torque Game Builder...
I really wanted to go 3D and multiplayer...and that would mean torque. And learning to code right off the bat...
But perhaps I should cut my teeth on something simple in 2d on a point and click interface...
I'm wobbling on the fence. So I'll just go back to lurking and gleaning info for awhile.
Your shared knowledge and opinions were GREATLY appreciated.
_Walt
#14
09/07/2006 (7:57 pm)
Throw yourself in the deep end, if you want to go 3d and multiplayer then go for it. Rememer their are many many resources out there to help you along the way 
Torque 3D Owner James Spellman
You know where to find us...