Torque/1.5/WhatsNew
by Rex · in Torque Game Engine · 08/23/2006 (8:51 am) · 187 replies
-Fix for orbit camera jitter.:
-thanks, that was very jerky. I also noticed a bit of jerkiness with the flyCam in Editor Mode[F11], is this connected??
-#0001132: Fix for footstep sounds on different materials on Interiors:
-is this fixed for regular terrain too? I could never get multiple sounds to work across the terrain, only the texture in the first Slot position.
...and many more. Thanks from someone who can't just recompile, especially with support for the VS Express05; perhaps I now can! I see a lot of voodoo with the SimObject and saving/writing/finding....and console functions...! These seem like major changes from the way things were accomplished, am I right in thinking this?
Thanks,
Rex
-thanks, that was very jerky. I also noticed a bit of jerkiness with the flyCam in Editor Mode[F11], is this connected??
-#0001132: Fix for footstep sounds on different materials on Interiors:
-is this fixed for regular terrain too? I could never get multiple sounds to work across the terrain, only the texture in the first Slot position.
...and many more. Thanks from someone who can't just recompile, especially with support for the VS Express05; perhaps I now can! I see a lot of voodoo with the SimObject and saving/writing/finding....and console functions...! These seem like major changes from the way things were accomplished, am I right in thinking this?
Thanks,
Rex
About the author
Rex does all his 3D graphics through BrokeAssGames and is currently working on DSQTweaker, Ecstasy Motion, and other interesting projects yet to be revealed. Just ask him about anything DTS/DSQ related, he's happy to help.
#142
And quite honestly, how much do you value your own time? Or how much does your company pay you per hour? Because if you would name just one major feature that TSE already provides, and compare it to what you've payed for it, I'm reasonably confident you wouldn't look back.
In general, as Matt as so elequently said, various factions within the GG community/customer base have painted us very tightly into a corner. There isn't a single thing we can do within the context of upgrades (announce, don't announce, meet deadlines/push off deadlines for quality where required, etc) that will satisfy, so it doesn't leave us much of an option than to ignore the community in this aspect--and that is a very bad thing.
08/29/2006 (6:45 pm)
@Anton: You don't even know why TGE 1.5 will be a pay upgrade, and when you do I think you'll understand. In fact, you'll say "oh my god, that's cool!" And no, I can't say what the major functionality is, so please don't even ask until it's released.And quite honestly, how much do you value your own time? Or how much does your company pay you per hour? Because if you would name just one major feature that TSE already provides, and compare it to what you've payed for it, I'm reasonably confident you wouldn't look back.
In general, as Matt as so elequently said, various factions within the GG community/customer base have painted us very tightly into a corner. There isn't a single thing we can do within the context of upgrades (announce, don't announce, meet deadlines/push off deadlines for quality where required, etc) that will satisfy, so it doesn't leave us much of an option than to ignore the community in this aspect--and that is a very bad thing.
#143
Oh, how I hope they don't follow that advice.
08/29/2006 (6:57 pm)
Quote:Please don't sell stuff that isn't finished ever again.
Oh, how I hope they don't follow that advice.
#144
Stop referring to us. I would have to say that most people around here are pretty greatful to GG. Do I always agree with the decisions that are made, of course not. We all have our own opinions about how things should be done.
As far as paying for future TGE updates, I think nothing could be better for us. Let me explain, if GG has the potention to make more money off of an engine, they will continue to develop for it. I HIGHLY doubt that they are going to charge us an addition $100 for the upgrade. If that was the case, you would have a very reasonable excuse to piss and moan.
On behalf of the people in the community who are greatful to GG, a many big THANKS!!! :) Keep up the good work!
08/29/2006 (7:31 pm)
@AntonStop referring to us. I would have to say that most people around here are pretty greatful to GG. Do I always agree with the decisions that are made, of course not. We all have our own opinions about how things should be done.
As far as paying for future TGE updates, I think nothing could be better for us. Let me explain, if GG has the potention to make more money off of an engine, they will continue to develop for it. I HIGHLY doubt that they are going to charge us an addition $100 for the upgrade. If that was the case, you would have a very reasonable excuse to piss and moan.
On behalf of the people in the community who are greatful to GG, a many big THANKS!!! :) Keep up the good work!
#145
08/29/2006 (7:50 pm)
Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch
#146
08/29/2006 (7:51 pm)
Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch
#148
And for TSE, I don't remember GG ever saying it was going to be released 2 years ago, where are people getting that from?
08/29/2006 (8:17 pm)
I don't see whats so bad about letting a few bucks flow to GG for an engine upgrade. Autodesk charge $2000 per upgrade, and theres one every year. It seems like yesterday Max 7 was just announced...And for TSE, I don't remember GG ever saying it was going to be released 2 years ago, where are people getting that from?
#150
[quote="Matt Fairfax"]We accomplished this in under nine months with less than a half dozen fulltime coders (an indie sized team). [/quote]
I've worked on a number of indie projects, and to say that less than a half a dozen full time coders is an indie sized team... that's a bit detached. In most projects I've worked on it is 1-2 part time programmers. In fact normally I'm the only programmer. Projects like Illumina have had a lot of programmers over the years, but rarely have they had several at once. More likely, they have one full time programmer, one full time artists and some interns... or a band of volunteers altogether working on the hopes of a commission one day.
08/29/2006 (10:56 pm)
Only one thing I did want to comment on here was this bit by Matt...[quote="Matt Fairfax"]We accomplished this in under nine months with less than a half dozen fulltime coders (an indie sized team). [/quote]
I've worked on a number of indie projects, and to say that less than a half a dozen full time coders is an indie sized team... that's a bit detached. In most projects I've worked on it is 1-2 part time programmers. In fact normally I'm the only programmer. Projects like Illumina have had a lot of programmers over the years, but rarely have they had several at once. More likely, they have one full time programmer, one full time artists and some interns... or a band of volunteers altogether working on the hopes of a commission one day.
#151
08/29/2006 (11:10 pm)
Well, it is indie compared to larger studios, who usually have in excess of 20 9-5 programmers.
#152
08/29/2006 (11:13 pm)
Yes 6 programmers would be "indie" but that doesnt mean thats the average indie. 6 programmers would be a large indie team and I would say the vast majority of projects being developed here on GG have 1-3 programmers. 
#153
Have you ever wondered why in a community of thousands of developers most of the teams here are 1-3 people?
Everyone wants to make *their* game and only manages to get one or two other people to buy into their "vision".
When TGE launched, I had no problem pulling together a team of 5 coders and 3 artists. How did I accomplish this seemingly impossible task (by current communities standards)?
I went out and spent time getting to know as many of the community members as I could. I started abstract discussions in game design on the forums and in IRC. I let experienced developers teach me the things they knew. I talked about the games I enjoyed playing and engaged in lively discussions about the strengths and weaknesses of them. And after a time I found myself surrounded by a group of likeminded game developers who shared common goals and interests. Sure, each of us had our own games we wanted to make but we shared a common interest in just plain making games and we willing to help each other make our own games in turn. We were also willing to figure out game ideas that *all* of us could buy in on.
We concentrated on leveraging the strangths of TGE (sprawling terrain and water, networking, simplistic hover physics, easily scripted triggers/checkpoints, and scattered buildings and static meshes) and were able to bring a very fun prototype for a hoverbike racing game to life in a matter of weeks. None of us had bought Torque with the intention of making a hoverbike game. Over the course of our discussions about what interested us and "you know what could be cool", we cooked up a couple dozen ideas and that was the one most of us were interested in doing first.
Somewhere along the way this community lost the concept of building up teams of likeminded developers who would *then* figure out what games they want to make based on their common interests and skills. Instead most people seem to buy Torque with the intention of making *their* game and only *their* game and it is a lucky break if they manage to find anyone else willing to help.
If you look back at the most successful games/projects/teams in this community you will see that they took the first approach (21-6, BraveTree, Maxgaming, StarCave).
Why, in a community of thousands, is the idea of six to ten people sharing a common interest in making games together such a foreign concept?
08/29/2006 (11:41 pm)
Quote:
I would say the vast majority of projects being developed here on GG have 1-3 programmers
Have you ever wondered why in a community of thousands of developers most of the teams here are 1-3 people?
Everyone wants to make *their* game and only manages to get one or two other people to buy into their "vision".
When TGE launched, I had no problem pulling together a team of 5 coders and 3 artists. How did I accomplish this seemingly impossible task (by current communities standards)?
I went out and spent time getting to know as many of the community members as I could. I started abstract discussions in game design on the forums and in IRC. I let experienced developers teach me the things they knew. I talked about the games I enjoyed playing and engaged in lively discussions about the strengths and weaknesses of them. And after a time I found myself surrounded by a group of likeminded game developers who shared common goals and interests. Sure, each of us had our own games we wanted to make but we shared a common interest in just plain making games and we willing to help each other make our own games in turn. We were also willing to figure out game ideas that *all* of us could buy in on.
We concentrated on leveraging the strangths of TGE (sprawling terrain and water, networking, simplistic hover physics, easily scripted triggers/checkpoints, and scattered buildings and static meshes) and were able to bring a very fun prototype for a hoverbike racing game to life in a matter of weeks. None of us had bought Torque with the intention of making a hoverbike game. Over the course of our discussions about what interested us and "you know what could be cool", we cooked up a couple dozen ideas and that was the one most of us were interested in doing first.
Somewhere along the way this community lost the concept of building up teams of likeminded developers who would *then* figure out what games they want to make based on their common interests and skills. Instead most people seem to buy Torque with the intention of making *their* game and only *their* game and it is a lucky break if they manage to find anyone else willing to help.
If you look back at the most successful games/projects/teams in this community you will see that they took the first approach (21-6, BraveTree, Maxgaming, StarCave).
Why, in a community of thousands, is the idea of six to ten people sharing a common interest in making games together such a foreign concept?
#154
I do think some of the things you said needed to be said, I agree with some of your lighter points (GG is late on a lot of things) but despite that I always hope for their next release to be when they say it will. Constructor would be awesome to have, and the "soon" responses are quite annoying by now. TSE will be awesome when finished, its royally obnoxious that it has taken this long, but its also cool that it actually has come so far from the little engine that could.
Every TGE update has been worth money in my opinion (I'm talking major updates here) and the fact that we've gotten to many for free is quite astounding. I've owned TGE since 03 and BOY has it changed since then. The engine is leaps and bounds better in so many ways, and the TLK really is a big plus. GarageGames has always been good to me, I don't really have a complaint here.
I do feel dissapointed that I'll have to pay for an update of TGE. BUT! I don't have to update at all, it can probably wait. Quit buying extra snacks for a month, don't get that pizza you get every friday for a couple days, I can always cut out things if I _absolutely_ need to have the next update _now_ - or I could just save up. What bothers me here is now will i have to pay for code updates from 1.5 to say 1.6? Or will it depend on the extremeness of the updates? (/crosses fingers for the second one)
I do think Anton took it a bit ofer the top with the comment on GG expecting a lot of indie games to be published through them by now. Twas out of line to assume what they would be thinking and put words in their mouth.
Now I see anton's point, GG half promised that TSE would be done long before it will be (and MS4 was promised out like a week ago, although i'm still crossing my fingers that the next morning i'll wake up and see that shiny new download) And if you had a deadline and were relying on GG to have stuff out by then, you'd be pretty screwed by now. I'd be pissed as hell, but I have to take the opposite standpoint.
If you had a deadline, is it intelligent to rely on someone outside your studio? It may be inconvieniant to write it all, but it could be possible.
Someone here compared GG to MS (in reference to the directx update thingy) and I honestly think that it should be noted that you have to actually compare the two companies.
How many people work for Microsoft? A WHOLE lot.
How much would it hurt them to help a handfull of people who went with some code you canceled?
A month at most of programmers writing guides on how to fix the problems MS created (and quite directly created, they announced a product and then cancelled it. No matter what you do thats bad PR. And not helping people would be even worse)
What would the gains be?
Most likely Microsoft is going to get quite a pretty penny from what these companies/users will buy as they keep using Microsoft's software when compared to the prices of making the guides.
Now,
How many people work for GG? Yeah, the numbers pale in comparison to MS.
How much would it hurt them to get it done faster?
[GG Fanboy]
Being a game dev is hard enough, long hours, long nights, being away from your family while you code away at your desk, the 140 bottles of coke you've ingested to keep you awake the past 3 days being your only friends. Coding the engine takes more programming skill and it takes TIME. Programmers know things take more time than expected, your estimates are almost NEVER right. Ever. You need a large amount to make up for time lost to bugs and bug fixes, etc etc. If it has taken GG this long, so be it. They're making an engine that compares to the Unreal3 engine with an absolute fraction of the staff. Yes its inconvieniant, and yes some things took FAR too long to come out (the rendering optimizations were >terribly< late) but I forgive them, I hope others will too.
[/GG Fanboy]
That ended up longer than expected O.o
[Ishbuu]
08/29/2006 (11:50 pm)
@ AntonI do think some of the things you said needed to be said, I agree with some of your lighter points (GG is late on a lot of things) but despite that I always hope for their next release to be when they say it will. Constructor would be awesome to have, and the "soon" responses are quite annoying by now. TSE will be awesome when finished, its royally obnoxious that it has taken this long, but its also cool that it actually has come so far from the little engine that could.
Every TGE update has been worth money in my opinion (I'm talking major updates here) and the fact that we've gotten to many for free is quite astounding. I've owned TGE since 03 and BOY has it changed since then. The engine is leaps and bounds better in so many ways, and the TLK really is a big plus. GarageGames has always been good to me, I don't really have a complaint here.
I do feel dissapointed that I'll have to pay for an update of TGE. BUT! I don't have to update at all, it can probably wait. Quit buying extra snacks for a month, don't get that pizza you get every friday for a couple days, I can always cut out things if I _absolutely_ need to have the next update _now_ - or I could just save up. What bothers me here is now will i have to pay for code updates from 1.5 to say 1.6? Or will it depend on the extremeness of the updates? (/crosses fingers for the second one)
I do think Anton took it a bit ofer the top with the comment on GG expecting a lot of indie games to be published through them by now. Twas out of line to assume what they would be thinking and put words in their mouth.
Now I see anton's point, GG half promised that TSE would be done long before it will be (and MS4 was promised out like a week ago, although i'm still crossing my fingers that the next morning i'll wake up and see that shiny new download) And if you had a deadline and were relying on GG to have stuff out by then, you'd be pretty screwed by now. I'd be pissed as hell, but I have to take the opposite standpoint.
If you had a deadline, is it intelligent to rely on someone outside your studio? It may be inconvieniant to write it all, but it could be possible.
Someone here compared GG to MS (in reference to the directx update thingy) and I honestly think that it should be noted that you have to actually compare the two companies.
How many people work for Microsoft? A WHOLE lot.
How much would it hurt them to help a handfull of people who went with some code you canceled?
A month at most of programmers writing guides on how to fix the problems MS created (and quite directly created, they announced a product and then cancelled it. No matter what you do thats bad PR. And not helping people would be even worse)
What would the gains be?
Most likely Microsoft is going to get quite a pretty penny from what these companies/users will buy as they keep using Microsoft's software when compared to the prices of making the guides.
Now,
How many people work for GG? Yeah, the numbers pale in comparison to MS.
How much would it hurt them to get it done faster?
[GG Fanboy]
Being a game dev is hard enough, long hours, long nights, being away from your family while you code away at your desk, the 140 bottles of coke you've ingested to keep you awake the past 3 days being your only friends. Coding the engine takes more programming skill and it takes TIME. Programmers know things take more time than expected, your estimates are almost NEVER right. Ever. You need a large amount to make up for time lost to bugs and bug fixes, etc etc. If it has taken GG this long, so be it. They're making an engine that compares to the Unreal3 engine with an absolute fraction of the staff. Yes its inconvieniant, and yes some things took FAR too long to come out (the rendering optimizations were >terribly< late) but I forgive them, I hope others will too.
[/GG Fanboy]
That ended up longer than expected O.o
[Ishbuu]
#155
08/29/2006 (11:57 pm)
Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch
#156
08/30/2006 (12:01 am)
Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch
#157
I am not one of the 'US' or 'Community' he refers to when mentioning the issues that seem to be happening.
Keep up the good work GG - I'm sure your reasons are valid for the way you are progressing with everything.
If paying for upgrades is what is required - so be it. Its not exactly the most expensive engine in the world.... $100 lol...
08/30/2006 (12:29 am)
Just so everyone knows I in no way agree with Anton's overall feelings on this matter.I am not one of the 'US' or 'Community' he refers to when mentioning the issues that seem to be happening.
Keep up the good work GG - I'm sure your reasons are valid for the way you are progressing with everything.
If paying for upgrades is what is required - so be it. Its not exactly the most expensive engine in the world.... $100 lol...
#158
08/30/2006 (12:37 am)
Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch
#159
Too many people are taking others POV personally and defending their tools, I know I've been guilty of that before, alot of people have.
08/30/2006 (12:44 am)
I do agree with some of Antons posts, the community has become more hostile recently.Too many people are taking others POV personally and defending their tools, I know I've been guilty of that before, alot of people have.
#160
08/30/2006 (12:46 am)
Jackass comments removed by Anton Bursch 
Torque Owner Anton Bursch