XBox 360 and you
by Ken Paulson · in General Discussion · 08/14/2006 (12:33 am) · 61 replies
I didn't think this was supposed to be public yet, but they made the press releases available, so I'm allowed to post it.
www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/aug06/08-13XNAGameStudioPR.mspx
www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/aug06/08-13XNAGameStudioPR.mspx
#22
msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/
I'm excited, but hesitant to jump up and down. If MS is commited enough to add a menu option to the 360's dashboard and make it very easy for people to get games from garage developers, then this could be huge. However, I don't think this is going to be like PC development at all. MS will do certification on everything that goes near the 360. Testing a game on my 360 is cool enough for now, but that doesn't open up the door for complete democratic, creative, and instant garage-to-console development.
A step in the right direction, to be sure!
And congrats to GG for getting mentioned in a lot of press!
08/14/2006 (9:39 am)
Quote:Is there a source for this quote?
msdn.microsoft.com/directx/xna/faq/
I'm excited, but hesitant to jump up and down. If MS is commited enough to add a menu option to the 360's dashboard and make it very easy for people to get games from garage developers, then this could be huge. However, I don't think this is going to be like PC development at all. MS will do certification on everything that goes near the 360. Testing a game on my 360 is cool enough for now, but that doesn't open up the door for complete democratic, creative, and instant garage-to-console development.
A step in the right direction, to be sure!
And congrats to GG for getting mentioned in a lot of press!
#23
08/14/2006 (1:33 pm)
Alot of people are thinking this is a good thing, I'm not so shure; I was watching G4tv. the show Game Makers. In the session where they talk about the industry. A bunch of crapy games were put on the shelves, you'de think after all these mistakes this isn't such a good idea. Don't get me wrong I wan't my game on the Xbox 360 too, but if everyone can make a game on the 360 the game industry could possibly crash again. Atari and game companies made this mistake once, what makes it different this time?
#24
-Ajari-
08/14/2006 (1:46 pm)
Quote:Not at all, Ajari. This is way bigger than a Linux add-on kit.Cool that's good to hear Pat. I'll take your word for it and wait for more information.
Quote:if everyone can make a game on the 360 the game industry could possibly crash again. Atari and game companies made this mistake once, what makes it different this time?One difference is that there is actually a market now. This industry actually has roots and is no longer looked at as a glorified Simon Says. I do have minor worries about the market getting flooded with crap and half finished games but all you have to do is come out with a solid product every time and make a name for yourself and I think people will start to associate your name with quality. You'll stand out that way. We'll see. And most of these games are gonna be too small to have an effect on the market as a whole anyway. I don't think 100 crappy Geometry Wars and Bejeweled clones will effect Halo 3 and Gears of War 2 sales. Only us.
-Ajari-
#25
08/14/2006 (1:55 pm)
But this is the reason Atari only makes games now. They allowed so much crap to be put on they're console and then it killed the systems name and quality of the system. Honestly if I was the owner of Xbox 360 I would have a game preview before the game was allowed on the system.
#26
And even if you have a great game, you can't sell it using this method.
Personally I reckon it would be a great way of collaborating on a game. It also has great potential for allowing customisable content in games. Put your game out there and let other developers stick in their own content and mods.
If it's done right, and if enough people sign up, there could be a whole sub-culture of Live games!
08/14/2006 (1:57 pm)
But you aren't making a half finished, bug-ridden game and then selling it to the world. The only people who will be able to access it will be other members of the XNA Creators Club, and I'm guessing you can choose who you share your game with using your Live Friends list.And even if you have a great game, you can't sell it using this method.
Personally I reckon it would be a great way of collaborating on a game. It also has great potential for allowing customisable content in games. Put your game out there and let other developers stick in their own content and mods.
If it's done right, and if enough people sign up, there could be a whole sub-culture of Live games!
#27
08/14/2006 (2:03 pm)
That sounds pretty cool. That way it won't tamper with companies in the indie game scene who actually sell their products or harm XBLA. 
#28
Everyone making a game on the 360 is the future. There will be a lot of crap games, however that's really the idea. Look at the internet right now. Everyone on the planet can make a web site, and there's a lot of crap websites. You usually never see them, hear about them, or care about them. The good stuff, however, always floats to the top, and you do hear about it.
What you are proposing is quality control by having gatekeepers deciding who can and can-not get into the exclusive club. This centralizes power, and is, in fact, exactly what does cause industries to crash. People who hold power control who gets power, and invariably gain more power and control. Then what you have is the requirement that, for a successful game, you need a budget in the millions, 3 years of development minimum, and a marketing team that will go out and pimp the game to hell and back (and requires more millions of dollars). You need a publisher who has the influance in retail stores to get you prime shelf space, and since your studio doesn't have any millions, the publisher will hold all the cards, and pull all the strings.
You now, no longer, have to pitch a game to some asshole in a suit and have him tell you the game is too risky. If a game needs to cost $3 million to make, why would anyone want to take the risk that it won't work? Since you no longer need a development kit (which you'd have to get from a publisher, since otherwise you'd have to fund it) to develop games, and the tools are free to download (Visual Studio Express), anyone can make a game. This will result in a lot of crap games. The good ones you will hear about, and play.
So basically, it will be no different than it currently is now. Right now there are a ton of crap games. The difference is that these crap games were sometimes forced into being crap due to all-too-aggressive timelines (that the publisher set, since they hold all the money and such) or they are stupid clones of games already done (because the publisher doesn't want to take a risk on some game that nobody has ever played before). It also opens the door for indy games which are fresh and innovative to get to play on the console.
The idea that there should be a sign that says, "You must be this tall to ride," in the games industry is just plain wrong. Taking the sign down does mean that a lot of snot-nosed kits will take a ride and puke their cotten-candy out, but isn't that better than the bar gradually growing higher, and higher until only the very tall can ride?
08/14/2006 (2:09 pm)
Quote:This is 100% wrong. I am not sure how you figured this out.
...but if everyone can make a game on the 360 the game industry could possibly crash again.
Everyone making a game on the 360 is the future. There will be a lot of crap games, however that's really the idea. Look at the internet right now. Everyone on the planet can make a web site, and there's a lot of crap websites. You usually never see them, hear about them, or care about them. The good stuff, however, always floats to the top, and you do hear about it.
What you are proposing is quality control by having gatekeepers deciding who can and can-not get into the exclusive club. This centralizes power, and is, in fact, exactly what does cause industries to crash. People who hold power control who gets power, and invariably gain more power and control. Then what you have is the requirement that, for a successful game, you need a budget in the millions, 3 years of development minimum, and a marketing team that will go out and pimp the game to hell and back (and requires more millions of dollars). You need a publisher who has the influance in retail stores to get you prime shelf space, and since your studio doesn't have any millions, the publisher will hold all the cards, and pull all the strings.
You now, no longer, have to pitch a game to some asshole in a suit and have him tell you the game is too risky. If a game needs to cost $3 million to make, why would anyone want to take the risk that it won't work? Since you no longer need a development kit (which you'd have to get from a publisher, since otherwise you'd have to fund it) to develop games, and the tools are free to download (Visual Studio Express), anyone can make a game. This will result in a lot of crap games. The good ones you will hear about, and play.
So basically, it will be no different than it currently is now. Right now there are a ton of crap games. The difference is that these crap games were sometimes forced into being crap due to all-too-aggressive timelines (that the publisher set, since they hold all the money and such) or they are stupid clones of games already done (because the publisher doesn't want to take a risk on some game that nobody has ever played before). It also opens the door for indy games which are fresh and innovative to get to play on the console.
The idea that there should be a sign that says, "You must be this tall to ride," in the games industry is just plain wrong. Taking the sign down does mean that a lot of snot-nosed kits will take a ride and puke their cotten-candy out, but isn't that better than the bar gradually growing higher, and higher until only the very tall can ride?
#29
08/14/2006 (2:16 pm)
Wow good point. Makes a lot of sense. 
#30
You are my new hero. Well said.
Anyone can make games for the PC right now and there is not an over abundance of crap games, there's actual still a void of games for the PC. This is what will happen with the XBOX 360. People who are going to make games are going to make games, but now they can make them for an outlet that has a set tech spec and is really, right now, able to be used to make anything you can dish out at it.
This news is just good news. And we need it with all the crap happening in the world right now. Thanks Microsoft and thank GarageGames.
08/14/2006 (2:22 pm)
@Pat WilsonYou are my new hero. Well said.
Anyone can make games for the PC right now and there is not an over abundance of crap games, there's actual still a void of games for the PC. This is what will happen with the XBOX 360. People who are going to make games are going to make games, but now they can make them for an outlet that has a set tech spec and is really, right now, able to be used to make anything you can dish out at it.
This news is just good news. And we need it with all the crap happening in the world right now. Thanks Microsoft and thank GarageGames.
#31
Not to go off topic, but don't you think that will change with Linux being included on every PS3 hard disk?
Do you see an opportunity there for Torque? You might be able to take linux code and build it on PS3 yourself, but a specifically optimised port would be great
08/14/2006 (2:35 pm)
I've one question, not sure if it's been answered, but has anyone given a percentage estimate as to how much performance you lose with C# versus C++?Quote:Not at all, Ajari. Still don't know what is announced and what is un-announced, but the PS2 Linux kit didn't even move the needle for Sony. This is way bigger than a Linux add-on kit.
Not to go off topic, but don't you think that will change with Linux being included on every PS3 hard disk?
Do you see an opportunity there for Torque? You might be able to take linux code and build it on PS3 yourself, but a specifically optimised port would be great
#32
08/14/2006 (2:42 pm)
Mostly, your speed differential will depend on what you are doing with Torque X. If you are doing something horrifically speed-critical, then you will want to optimize that part of your devpipe with C++. I like C# a lot, but I have been a C++ programmer for years and have a very good workflow with the language, but RAD tools and languages are great. Especially if you can still leverage off of the old standby's for optimization.
#33
Gamefest Keynote Address
I don't think Linux on every PS3 hard drive will change a damn thing. Sony can't provide development tools to their licenced developers that touch the tools Microsoft is giving away free to everyone.
There is no direct TorqueX vs Torque comparison, because it is a different codebase entirely. It's not a direct port. Sure a TS shape works the same in TorqueX as it does in TGE, but I can't really say how much of a speed hit you take with C#. How fast it runs on the 360 is also going to be totally different. My opinion is that it is "fast enough".
08/14/2006 (2:50 pm)
I highly recomend you all listen to this keynote:Gamefest Keynote Address
I don't think Linux on every PS3 hard drive will change a damn thing. Sony can't provide development tools to their licenced developers that touch the tools Microsoft is giving away free to everyone.
There is no direct TorqueX vs Torque comparison, because it is a different codebase entirely. It's not a direct port. Sure a TS shape works the same in TorqueX as it does in TGE, but I can't really say how much of a speed hit you take with C#. How fast it runs on the 360 is also going to be totally different. My opinion is that it is "fast enough".
#34
On PS3, Linux etc. lots of people on PS2 Linux actually used MS tools on windows to do their coding, and then sent their code over to PS2 to build ;) I'm sure it'll be the same with PS3. It would be very nice to have optimised libraries, like Torque, there.
08/14/2006 (3:03 pm)
Ah, thank you for the link, I didn't know there was a cast available!On PS3, Linux etc. lots of people on PS2 Linux actually used MS tools on windows to do their coding, and then sent their code over to PS2 to build ;) I'm sure it'll be the same with PS3. It would be very nice to have optimised libraries, like Torque, there.
#36
08/14/2006 (3:13 pm)
Most people I know who used PS2 Linux used gcc.
#37
Anyway, I didn't mean things would change in terms of development tools, by having it on every hard disk. I meant the size of the audience and scale of the whole thing would change. With PS2 Linux, only limited numbers got their hands on the kit, and they could only code for others with the kit, which wasn't highly motivating. With PS3, everyone will have access, and your potential audience will be everyone. Or so it seems. Torque supports Linux x86 and MacOS PPC, and I reckon PS3 PPC (Cell) will be at least as big a market if not a lot lot bigger, and it would be great to have it there too.
I should probably put this in a different thread, though! But I am excited for console homebrew generally, and this announcement got me thinking if we'd see Torque supported on more platforms still!
08/14/2006 (3:20 pm)
Ultimately you had to, to compile and build, but I know people who actually wrote their code in windows before sending it over. In fact, lots of professional devs do this too (chances are you'll see PS3 devs using VC++).Anyway, I didn't mean things would change in terms of development tools, by having it on every hard disk. I meant the size of the audience and scale of the whole thing would change. With PS2 Linux, only limited numbers got their hands on the kit, and they could only code for others with the kit, which wasn't highly motivating. With PS3, everyone will have access, and your potential audience will be everyone. Or so it seems. Torque supports Linux x86 and MacOS PPC, and I reckon PS3 PPC (Cell) will be at least as big a market if not a lot lot bigger, and it would be great to have it there too.
I should probably put this in a different thread, though! But I am excited for console homebrew generally, and this announcement got me thinking if we'd see Torque supported on more platforms still!
#38
One that jumps out at me is this:
I am curious what type of secirity and protection will be offered to the members for theirr work. It is my gut feeling that this community will contain more then a few "less then honest" members. I wonder how easy or accessable it will be for code to be stolen by the end user? For instance, could they copy your whole game and re-release it under their name? I have seen this done frequently on Xbox games containing map makers and also in the Timesplitters 3 in game, game engine.
I am interested to know more details on the service and how it works.
08/14/2006 (3:34 pm)
Well its a great step for sure. Like others though I do feel the reservations of the system as I currently understand it. One that jumps out at me is this:
I am curious what type of secirity and protection will be offered to the members for theirr work. It is my gut feeling that this community will contain more then a few "less then honest" members. I wonder how easy or accessable it will be for code to be stolen by the end user? For instance, could they copy your whole game and re-release it under their name? I have seen this done frequently on Xbox games containing map makers and also in the Timesplitters 3 in game, game engine.
I am interested to know more details on the service and how it works.
#39
08/15/2006 (1:44 am)
Some more great info about XNA etc. over on the XNA Team Blog, especially this:Quote:Because this is a blog and not the actual press announcement, I can talk about the big obvious hole in the plan. When we ship XNA Game Studio Express this fall, you will be able to share your final product with anyone on your windows machine that you want, but there is no support for sharing Xbox binaries other than sending your source around. We fully intend to fix this in the future, and if I have anything to do about it, it will be sooner than later. The more people that sign up for the subscription and start showing cool innovative content that everyone wants, the easier it will be to get this done.
#40
I'm wondering how long it will take for people to start meging "complex" code (such as the Q3A GPL & ODE physics) to this system. And don't say it can't be done. People enjoy Doom & Quake on their PDA OS PDA's. :)
08/15/2006 (6:31 am)
As cool as this sounds, I'd prefer a one time liscence offer (like TGE or TGB) then a yearly fee for this & x-box live. Yeah, I know $150 a year isn't much but I prefer to buy liscences then lease them. :) But to get on this bandwagon I'd need to drop $300-500 to just get a 360. Well, technically not cuz I could download it for Windows but I'd still have to pay. I'm wondering how long it will take for people to start meging "complex" code (such as the Q3A GPL & ODE physics) to this system. And don't say it can't be done. People enjoy Doom & Quake on their PDA OS PDA's. :)
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