A Few Questions About Torque
by Erick J. Colletti · in Torque Game Engine · 08/12/2006 (11:18 pm) · 23 replies
I discovered Torque last night while conducting a search, and it peaked my interest. However, I have a few questions which need answers, and want to know if Torque is right for me before I download it.
1) Is Torque capable of developing an EA NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game?
2) If Torque is incapable of developing an EA NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game, does such a commerical game engine exist? And if so, where can I attain it?
As always, any good info is most appreciated.
1) Is Torque capable of developing an EA NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game?
2) If Torque is incapable of developing an EA NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game, does such a commerical game engine exist? And if so, where can I attain it?
As always, any good info is most appreciated.
About the author
#2
With the right talent--absolutely!
I acknowledge that EA NHL requires an extravagant budget and dev team.
It's an honest question.
I'm not most indies.
EA NHL 07 Xbox 360, is the most realistic looking and playing hockey game to date. However, that's not saying much as it's competition-less. And, no, NHL 2K Xbox 360 is not competition.
I've inquired about TSE. But please tell me, is TSE an expansion pack for TGE? Or, the latest full Torgue game engine?
I'm familiar with the numerous 3D graphics and game engines. I must know what tools are needed to complete the aforementioned project.
08/13/2006 (12:22 am)
Is Torque capable... Period? That is the question. Be it used by a solo indie developer possessing the know-how, or 50-person, plus professional dev team.With the right talent--absolutely!
I acknowledge that EA NHL requires an extravagant budget and dev team.
It's an honest question.
I'm not most indies.
EA NHL 07 Xbox 360, is the most realistic looking and playing hockey game to date. However, that's not saying much as it's competition-less. And, no, NHL 2K Xbox 360 is not competition.
I've inquired about TSE. But please tell me, is TSE an expansion pack for TGE? Or, the latest full Torgue game engine?
I'm familiar with the numerous 3D graphics and game engines. I must know what tools are needed to complete the aforementioned project.
#3
08/13/2006 (12:34 am)
Quote:I would say no. If you were to make a more concise list of exactly what you wanted to get out of Torque, rather than just one example of a game, your question could be answered more thoroughly.
Is Torque capable... Period?
Quote:No. TSE is a separate product that runs independently of TGE. It is derived from TGE, was built on top of it if you like, but is not an expansion pack.
I've inquired about TSE. But please tell me, is TSE an expansion pack for TGE?
Quote:From a graphical / rendering stand point, once again TGE is not going to be up to the task. TSE might be, download a demo and find out if it fits your needs.
I'm familiar with the numerous 3D graphics and game engines. I must know what tools are needed to complete the aforementioned project.
#4
I can't share my precise needs of Torque--because I don't know.
I can't divulge more than I have.
Thanks for the intel.
Will do.
08/13/2006 (12:58 am)
I can't get more concise than mentioning a lone game. I can't share my precise needs of Torque--because I don't know.
I can't divulge more than I have.
Thanks for the intel.
Will do.
#5
The answer to your question is simple. Go look at what game have been made with Torque:
www.garagegames.com/pg/
08/13/2006 (1:08 am)
@Erick J. CollettiThe answer to your question is simple. Go look at what game have been made with Torque:
www.garagegames.com/pg/
#6
There's too many variables to this equation.
i.e., There's not a hockey game made with Torque to assess.
Perhaps it's possible that Torque is capable of developing an EA NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game. It's just that nobody has, yet. Or customized TSE's source code, but used a first-rate 3D graphics engine etc.
08/13/2006 (1:35 am)
The answer to my question is not simple. If it was simple--I wouldn't ask.There's too many variables to this equation.
i.e., There's not a hockey game made with Torque to assess.
Perhaps it's possible that Torque is capable of developing an EA NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game. It's just that nobody has, yet. Or customized TSE's source code, but used a first-rate 3D graphics engine etc.
#7
Yeah and you need to get this very part: No one has because it requires a big and experienced team to pull off.
Also looking at your team recruitment posts, I'd have to say - no. Torque will not be enough for you. A 5-star producer, who works closely to the EA teams, and he's looking for volounteers?
Right..
08/13/2006 (1:39 am)
Quote:
Perhaps it's possible that Torque is capable of developing an EA NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game. It's just that nobody has, yet. Or customized TSE's source code, but used a first-rate 3D graphics engine etc.
Yeah and you need to get this very part: No one has because it requires a big and experienced team to pull off.
Also looking at your team recruitment posts, I'd have to say - no. Torque will not be enough for you. A 5-star producer, who works closely to the EA teams, and he's looking for volounteers?
Right..
#8
08/13/2006 (1:51 am)
I know. Anybody interested? If so, refer to my 'Programmers and Artists Wanted' ad in the Team Building forum for more details.
#9
08/13/2006 (1:54 am)
Let's just say, I'm an invaluable external source of hockey game knowledge.
#10
Is TSE capable of developing an NHL 06 Xbox caliber quality game?
08/13/2006 (2:11 am)
Does a freeware 3D graphics and game engine capable of developing an NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game exist? If so, what's it called?Is TSE capable of developing an NHL 06 Xbox caliber quality game?
#11
sorry if my post sounded cryptic. it's actually a very hard question to answer, but a lot of the answer does lie in what games have been made with Torque. since the tech isn't really a matter of what it can do, but what can you do with it. and to be honest, yeah, my first thoughts about Torque is that, yes, you would do well to use Torque for a game like that. BUT only TSE and only when it's done.... and when is it going to be done??? Nobody has a clue. So that leaves TGE to evaluate and, clearly, the answer becomes, no. If you are able to wait for the release of TSE, then I say TSE of perfect for a game like that. Ideal even. But if you need to think with a time budget in mind... go license Unreal or some other finished engine. Don't waste your time with the tech demo 'indie' engines out there. They push graphics out but they don't scale for a real game in my experience.
or do what I am doing and jump on the Managed Direct X bandwagon and code the game yourself. hire me to code it from scratch. I'll do it happily. after I'm done with the game I'm working on until November. Hell, I'll code you a game engine for an sport game no problem in Managed Direct X. But it's not working on anything but PC or XBOX 360 without someone else porting it to another system.
That's my long answer. :)
08/13/2006 (2:21 am)
@Erick J. Collettisorry if my post sounded cryptic. it's actually a very hard question to answer, but a lot of the answer does lie in what games have been made with Torque. since the tech isn't really a matter of what it can do, but what can you do with it. and to be honest, yeah, my first thoughts about Torque is that, yes, you would do well to use Torque for a game like that. BUT only TSE and only when it's done.... and when is it going to be done??? Nobody has a clue. So that leaves TGE to evaluate and, clearly, the answer becomes, no. If you are able to wait for the release of TSE, then I say TSE of perfect for a game like that. Ideal even. But if you need to think with a time budget in mind... go license Unreal or some other finished engine. Don't waste your time with the tech demo 'indie' engines out there. They push graphics out but they don't scale for a real game in my experience.
or do what I am doing and jump on the Managed Direct X bandwagon and code the game yourself. hire me to code it from scratch. I'll do it happily. after I'm done with the game I'm working on until November. Hell, I'll code you a game engine for an sport game no problem in Managed Direct X. But it's not working on anything but PC or XBOX 360 without someone else porting it to another system.
That's my long answer. :)
#12
Yes TSE is capable of it, the question is: Are you? I don't think so. You keep referring to the NHL game and Torque, well - the guys who made NHL 06 didn't just drop some assets into a tool and press the red magic button, they had to code to get somewhere. If they used a licensed engine, you can bet your ass that it wasn't 'capable' of doing it until they got their hands dirty and changed it to fit their type of game. So the answer will always be YES, considering you know how to manipulate the tools you are given.
Though, no one will team up with an individual that has nothing to bring to the table, except some fictional I'm an invaluable external source of hockey game knowledge which strikes me as quite funny.
08/13/2006 (3:14 am)
Quote:
Is TSE capable of developing an NHL 06 Xbox caliber quality game?
Yes TSE is capable of it, the question is: Are you? I don't think so. You keep referring to the NHL game and Torque, well - the guys who made NHL 06 didn't just drop some assets into a tool and press the red magic button, they had to code to get somewhere. If they used a licensed engine, you can bet your ass that it wasn't 'capable' of doing it until they got their hands dirty and changed it to fit their type of game. So the answer will always be YES, considering you know how to manipulate the tools you are given.
Though, no one will team up with an individual that has nothing to bring to the table, except some fictional I'm an invaluable external source of hockey game knowledge which strikes me as quite funny.
#13
Had I the financial means to purchase an advanced game engine, such as Unreal--I would.
If what you say is true, we'll use TSE to make the game.
This project is still in the womb. I am in the process of attempting to assemble a voluntary dev team, as we speak. Please consult my Programmers and Artists Wanted ad in the Team Building forum to learn more, and send your resume to: ErickJColletti@AOL.com for consideration. I appreciate your interest.
This could be a terrific opportunity for us to establish and expand our portfolios, if we make it a reality.
08/13/2006 (3:37 am)
Anton Bursch:Had I the financial means to purchase an advanced game engine, such as Unreal--I would.
If what you say is true, we'll use TSE to make the game.
This project is still in the womb. I am in the process of attempting to assemble a voluntary dev team, as we speak. Please consult my Programmers and Artists Wanted ad in the Team Building forum to learn more, and send your resume to: ErickJColletti@AOL.com for consideration. I appreciate your interest.
This could be a terrific opportunity for us to establish and expand our portfolios, if we make it a reality.
#14
Below is a list of my credentials:
Allow me this opportunity to introduce myself. The name is Erick J. Colletti, and I am a 22-year-old:
- Five-star hockey producer and game designer.
- 15-year EA NHL expert, since the original EA Hockey for Sega Genesis to NHL 06.
- Knower of all things EA NHL and hockey. And I do mean everything--bugs, rules, teams, players, stats, equipment, who won the 1970 Stanley Cup... You name it.
- 20-year game expert who's extensively played every hockey game in history, from Atari 2600's Video Olympics to EA Sports' NHL 06.
- Holder of an astronomical, 50,000, plus ideas, suggestions; and always counting. Which cover every facet of a hockey game. Including, but not limited to; gameplay, motion-capture animation, graphics, AI, game modes, controls, presentation, UI, sound, settings, online, and so much more.
- Keeper of a popular, yearly NHL Q&A thread on the official EA Forums, which answers all of the fan's questions about every EA NHL game.
- Identified EA NHL community leader and voice-of-reason.
- Former high-school, superstar 12-year roller and 6-year ice hockey goalie.
- Facilitator for the hundreds of goalie motion-capture animations by Dallas Stars' goalie, Marty Turco, Hit the Ice' practice mode, and improved shooting / skating engine in NHL 2K6. And, also first hockey game in history to include Stanley Cup patches via NHL 2K5.
- And hockey guru, diehard New Jersey Devils / Martin Brodeur fan.
Stefan Lundmark says:
Though, no one will team up with an individual that has nothing to bring to the table, except some fictional I'm an invaluable external source of hockey game knowledge which strikes me as quite funny.
"Nothing to bring to the table?" More like a smorgasbord. You don't know me from Adam.
"Fictional?" It's factual.
08/13/2006 (4:05 am)
@Stefan LundmarkBelow is a list of my credentials:
Allow me this opportunity to introduce myself. The name is Erick J. Colletti, and I am a 22-year-old:
- Five-star hockey producer and game designer.
- 15-year EA NHL expert, since the original EA Hockey for Sega Genesis to NHL 06.
- Knower of all things EA NHL and hockey. And I do mean everything--bugs, rules, teams, players, stats, equipment, who won the 1970 Stanley Cup... You name it.
- 20-year game expert who's extensively played every hockey game in history, from Atari 2600's Video Olympics to EA Sports' NHL 06.
- Holder of an astronomical, 50,000, plus ideas, suggestions; and always counting. Which cover every facet of a hockey game. Including, but not limited to; gameplay, motion-capture animation, graphics, AI, game modes, controls, presentation, UI, sound, settings, online, and so much more.
- Keeper of a popular, yearly NHL Q&A thread on the official EA Forums, which answers all of the fan's questions about every EA NHL game.
- Identified EA NHL community leader and voice-of-reason.
- Former high-school, superstar 12-year roller and 6-year ice hockey goalie.
- Facilitator for the hundreds of goalie motion-capture animations by Dallas Stars' goalie, Marty Turco, Hit the Ice' practice mode, and improved shooting / skating engine in NHL 2K6. And, also first hockey game in history to include Stanley Cup patches via NHL 2K5.
- And hockey guru, diehard New Jersey Devils / Martin Brodeur fan.
Stefan Lundmark says:
Though, no one will team up with an individual that has nothing to bring to the table, except some fictional I'm an invaluable external source of hockey game knowledge which strikes me as quite funny.
"Nothing to bring to the table?" More like a smorgasbord. You don't know me from Adam.
"Fictional?" It's factual.
#15
Why do you have to make fun of the people asking about whether or not to license Torque? Are you trying to keep Torque from selling licenses? What is it with people around here being jerks to people who are inquiring about Torque? I thought you were a nice guy, you ussually are. What's up with the mocking of potential customers and possible future community members?
08/13/2006 (4:11 am)
@StephenWhy do you have to make fun of the people asking about whether or not to license Torque? Are you trying to keep Torque from selling licenses? What is it with people around here being jerks to people who are inquiring about Torque? I thought you were a nice guy, you ussually are. What's up with the mocking of potential customers and possible future community members?
#16
That was the point that you failed to grasp. No one knows you until you present yourself. To get volounteers to join your cause, you need to show them you got something to offer. Until now, all we had was that you were a invaluable external source of hockey game knowledge which quite honestly doesnt say shit. Being vague in your recruitment posts are the death to volounteer projects, unlike paying ones.
If I were you, I would edit your recruitment posts and complement with the part you put in above, which is alot better.
@Anton
I'm not making fun of him. I am saying the question Erick is asking has only one answer, and it depends on himself and his developers.
There is NO engine which can do NHL 06 out of the box. Just like the engine they used to make that game is not a generic solution that works for everything.
If a guy who wants to make something based on a recent commercial AAA game made by 20+ people, that's fine. But if he has nothing to show, he won't be getting any volounteers that can produce the quality of said game.
Now, you can fish for flamebait, consider it as good advice or totally dismiss it. I'm just being brutally honest.
08/13/2006 (5:12 am)
@ErickThat was the point that you failed to grasp. No one knows you until you present yourself. To get volounteers to join your cause, you need to show them you got something to offer. Until now, all we had was that you were a invaluable external source of hockey game knowledge which quite honestly doesnt say shit. Being vague in your recruitment posts are the death to volounteer projects, unlike paying ones.
If I were you, I would edit your recruitment posts and complement with the part you put in above, which is alot better.
@Anton
I'm not making fun of him. I am saying the question Erick is asking has only one answer, and it depends on himself and his developers.
There is NO engine which can do NHL 06 out of the box. Just like the engine they used to make that game is not a generic solution that works for everything.
If a guy who wants to make something based on a recent commercial AAA game made by 20+ people, that's fine. But if he has nothing to show, he won't be getting any volounteers that can produce the quality of said game.
Now, you can fish for flamebait, consider it as good advice or totally dismiss it. I'm just being brutally honest.
#17
The reason I created a brief ad, is to learn if there's an interest. If so, I elaborate and we proceed.
I've added my credentials to both help wanted ads to calm the storm.
08/13/2006 (5:30 am)
@Stefan The reason I created a brief ad, is to learn if there's an interest. If so, I elaborate and we proceed.
I've added my credentials to both help wanted ads to calm the storm.
#18
No-one involved in this thread wants to scare away potential Torque licensees; we're just trying to provide honest factual answers.
Stefan may have come across a little abrasive as Erick really hasn't provided us with as much information as he possibly could have.
Trust me. It would be far worse if a bunch of fanboys jumped in here and stated that TSE could make a commercial grade hockey game with ease, minimal effort required. Go buy it... NOW! Sure, Garage Games wins another license however we all end up with a dissatisfied customer who made a purchase due to following poorly given advice. Where do you think this unhappy customer is going to complain? Right here. What do you think he will say to other colleagues regarding Garage Games and their products?
So Erick, I have not made a hockey game before. I haven't even made a game that comes close to an Xbox 360 title in terms of quality and content. With that said, here's my take on your situation.
Let's look at some basic requirements for your game:
- A next generation engine that supports modern rendering and shading techniques
- An engine with support for highly detailed large indoor environments
- An engine that supports high poly detailed models
- Possibly an engine with ability to port to Xbox & or Playstation
- Support for complex AI
- Advanced camera management
- Physics to effectively simulate skating on ice as well as simulating puck movement
I'll stop there; you can fill in the blanks.
Now let's take into consideration that most available game engines are not written to produce a specific type of game. They are generic by nature, though most engines favour an fps styled game. So what's my point? No game engine will have everything you're looking for. No game engine will have all the required features that you need for your game out of the box. It's up to you to find a balance. Determine what's really important, what you can do yourself, what you can and cannot do without.
If you're on a small budget, I would recommend looking into the following engines:
Torque Shader Engine
C4 Engine
TV3D
Unity
All of these engines are very good and easily affordable. They all possess different strengths and weaknesses. With determination and a quality team behind you, they could all produce a game of your required caliber. It's up to you to find an engine that will suit you. I cannot give you a definitive answer.
I wish you luck in your endeavors.
- Tim
08/13/2006 (5:56 am)
Stefan is a nice guy. He was just being objective. No-one involved in this thread wants to scare away potential Torque licensees; we're just trying to provide honest factual answers.
Stefan may have come across a little abrasive as Erick really hasn't provided us with as much information as he possibly could have.
Trust me. It would be far worse if a bunch of fanboys jumped in here and stated that TSE could make a commercial grade hockey game with ease, minimal effort required. Go buy it... NOW! Sure, Garage Games wins another license however we all end up with a dissatisfied customer who made a purchase due to following poorly given advice. Where do you think this unhappy customer is going to complain? Right here. What do you think he will say to other colleagues regarding Garage Games and their products?
So Erick, I have not made a hockey game before. I haven't even made a game that comes close to an Xbox 360 title in terms of quality and content. With that said, here's my take on your situation.
Let's look at some basic requirements for your game:
- A next generation engine that supports modern rendering and shading techniques
- An engine with support for highly detailed large indoor environments
- An engine that supports high poly detailed models
- Possibly an engine with ability to port to Xbox & or Playstation
- Support for complex AI
- Advanced camera management
- Physics to effectively simulate skating on ice as well as simulating puck movement
I'll stop there; you can fill in the blanks.
Now let's take into consideration that most available game engines are not written to produce a specific type of game. They are generic by nature, though most engines favour an fps styled game. So what's my point? No game engine will have everything you're looking for. No game engine will have all the required features that you need for your game out of the box. It's up to you to find a balance. Determine what's really important, what you can do yourself, what you can and cannot do without.
If you're on a small budget, I would recommend looking into the following engines:
Torque Shader Engine
C4 Engine
TV3D
Unity
All of these engines are very good and easily affordable. They all possess different strengths and weaknesses. With determination and a quality team behind you, they could all produce a game of your required caliber. It's up to you to find an engine that will suit you. I cannot give you a definitive answer.
I wish you luck in your endeavors.
- Tim
#19
08/13/2006 (6:05 am)
That puts things into a clearer perspective. Thanks for the info, Tim.
#20
Problem is, these ad's are very common. Perhaps not as common as on www.gamedev.net but still pretty common. If there are no screenshots, lack of formatting and useful information to the volounteer, then they will 9 times out of 10 skip the post and you won't even get a reply. Everyone has ideas and they are plenty.
Calm the storm? :) Good luck with your team building, you'll need it.
08/13/2006 (6:18 am)
Quote:
The reason I created a brief ad, is to learn if there's an interest. If so, I elaborate and we proceed.
Problem is, these ad's are very common. Perhaps not as common as on www.gamedev.net but still pretty common. If there are no screenshots, lack of formatting and useful information to the volounteer, then they will 9 times out of 10 skip the post and you won't even get a reply. Everyone has ideas and they are plenty.
Quote:
I've added my credentials to both help wanted ads to calm the storm.
Calm the storm? :) Good luck with your team building, you'll need it.
Torque Owner Tim Heldna
The question should be:
Are you capable of developing an EA NHL 07 Xbox 360 caliber quality game?
A game like that has high funding & a huge development staff. It's naive to assume a one man independent game developer can produce games of that caliber, regardless of which engine you use. Most successful indies don't aim that high. They make smaller, simpler more realistic games that are fun to play. Just as challenging but a far more realistic goal.
Put simply, if you want eye candy look into the Torque Shader Engine.
A good listing of engines can be found on www.devmaster.net