RW Main Theme Idea
by Nick Palmer · in General Discussion · 04/25/2002 (10:23 am) · 11 replies
Phil has asked for some sort of theme to use for a demo for Realm Wars. Here's a first sketch/attempt:
My comments:
1) I don't seem to have adequate percussion to make a theme seem violent enough. I'll have that corrected soon with GigaStudio. I hope! That sampler will also give me better horns, strings, etc...
2) I originally wrote this in major, and I think it is more interesting in major, but it doesn't sound like Realm Wars to me-- more like a new Star Trek theme. I suppose I'll post that, too, just so that it is available.
Nick
My comments:
1) I don't seem to have adequate percussion to make a theme seem violent enough. I'll have that corrected soon with GigaStudio. I hope! That sampler will also give me better horns, strings, etc...
2) I originally wrote this in major, and I think it is more interesting in major, but it doesn't sound like Realm Wars to me-- more like a new Star Trek theme. I suppose I'll post that, too, just so that it is available.
Nick
About the author
#2
____________
You can grab the .ogg files of the themes I did for RW at this address. Since they're in Ogg Vorbis format, you'll need to drop by Vorbis.com's download area (thats the Windows section, if you're on another OS, just browse around and you'll find what you're looking for) and grab an appropriate plugin for your media player of choice.
If you'd rather just grab a couple quick mp3's of em, they're also available at my Zebox site, though the mp3 versions up there now are slightly older than the .ogg ones. Theres not much of a diference between the two sets, I just tweaked the reverb and a few notes here and there. The song titles to grab are 'Orcs Will Beat You Up' and 'The Orcs March Again'.
__________
Gigastudio recommendations:
You're in for a lot of spending, getting into the Giga market, but you'll love the sound quality. Gigastudio itself doesn't come with sounds built in (though you do get a small demo CD with some instruments and also Gigapiano), so expect to be dropping some cash on other libraries right off the bat. If you have the money to spend, I recommend buying specialized libraries for various types of instrumentation rather than sticking to an all-in-one orchestra set (like Advanced Orchestra). I posted a bunch of recommendations on an old thread in one of the other forums here, so alow me to cut & paste:
------------
I started out by buying the library "Peter Siedlaczek's Advanced Orchestra", which is a 5 CD set covering the whole range of orchestral instruments. At the time it was a drastic improvement over soundfonts or other low end sounds I had at my disposal. However, many of the instruments presented in the library have been covered more recently and in greater depth with newer libraries by other developers.
The advantage to AO is that its a complete set for around $1000 or less. You'll have the full range of woodwinds, brass, strings, and other odds'n'ends available to compose with. However, I find it hard to recommend if you're really serious about composing and you have ample money to spend. I only find myself using perhaps 10% of the material in the library anymore, and that number will drop once I get the money for London Orchestral Percussion and a new woodwinds library. At that point, about all I'll really want to use from AO are some nice run-up's from the string samples, and some of the effects patches for the flutes/ piccolo (maybe).
AO is pretty much the only noteworthy 'all-in-one' set you can get (at least, the only one thats not insanely expensive like Miroslav Vitous's orchestra library, which is way overpriced by current standards if you ask me), so if you elect not to get it, you'll need to buy some more specialized instrument libraries. This will cost more- but in the long run you'll be better off and the sounds you're working with will be of higher quality. You should take a listen to the demos of libraries like Garritan Orchestral Strings (www.garritan.com), Quantum Leap Brass (available at Sounds Online), London Orchestral Percussion (from Big Fish Audio), and the Dan Dean line of products (www.dandeanpro.com). You'll end up spending a pretty fair chunk of money, but the sounds are first class. You'll need Gigastudio and a sequencer too, like Cakewalk or Cubase...
I guess I can sum this all up by saying 'Quality doesn't come cheap'. I think I would recommend either going all out and spending a bundle to go top end, or just sticking with what free soundfonts and other MIDI sounds you can find on the web... and save until you can buy the good stuff. Middle of the road libraries like AO will probably just use up money that could have gone towards more worthy purchases.
Of course that's all just my opinion :) But orchestral emulation is one arena where the old adage 'you get what you pay for' holds true in most cases.
-----------
I'll add that as far as all-in-one sets go, I've heard reasonably good things about the Prosonus Orchestral Collection, which would seem to cover about the same ground as Advanced Orchestra (but still falls well short of an arsenal of sounds from specialized libraries). Its also a good bit cheaper than AO, so you may be able to afford it and some specialized libraries to give you a more well rounded collection.
___________
I hope that helps somewhat. I look forward to hearing more cool music from you and the other composers making RW music!
04/25/2002 (12:42 pm)
Hey Nick, its great to see that you're so interested in working on the music for RW. I hope there are more enthusiastic composers like you (and a few others that popped up in the underscore thread) that will contribute to the soundtrack... a few things to address:____________
You can grab the .ogg files of the themes I did for RW at this address. Since they're in Ogg Vorbis format, you'll need to drop by Vorbis.com's download area (thats the Windows section, if you're on another OS, just browse around and you'll find what you're looking for) and grab an appropriate plugin for your media player of choice.
If you'd rather just grab a couple quick mp3's of em, they're also available at my Zebox site, though the mp3 versions up there now are slightly older than the .ogg ones. Theres not much of a diference between the two sets, I just tweaked the reverb and a few notes here and there. The song titles to grab are 'Orcs Will Beat You Up' and 'The Orcs March Again'.
__________
Gigastudio recommendations:
You're in for a lot of spending, getting into the Giga market, but you'll love the sound quality. Gigastudio itself doesn't come with sounds built in (though you do get a small demo CD with some instruments and also Gigapiano), so expect to be dropping some cash on other libraries right off the bat. If you have the money to spend, I recommend buying specialized libraries for various types of instrumentation rather than sticking to an all-in-one orchestra set (like Advanced Orchestra). I posted a bunch of recommendations on an old thread in one of the other forums here, so alow me to cut & paste:
------------
I started out by buying the library "Peter Siedlaczek's Advanced Orchestra", which is a 5 CD set covering the whole range of orchestral instruments. At the time it was a drastic improvement over soundfonts or other low end sounds I had at my disposal. However, many of the instruments presented in the library have been covered more recently and in greater depth with newer libraries by other developers.
The advantage to AO is that its a complete set for around $1000 or less. You'll have the full range of woodwinds, brass, strings, and other odds'n'ends available to compose with. However, I find it hard to recommend if you're really serious about composing and you have ample money to spend. I only find myself using perhaps 10% of the material in the library anymore, and that number will drop once I get the money for London Orchestral Percussion and a new woodwinds library. At that point, about all I'll really want to use from AO are some nice run-up's from the string samples, and some of the effects patches for the flutes/ piccolo (maybe).
AO is pretty much the only noteworthy 'all-in-one' set you can get (at least, the only one thats not insanely expensive like Miroslav Vitous's orchestra library, which is way overpriced by current standards if you ask me), so if you elect not to get it, you'll need to buy some more specialized instrument libraries. This will cost more- but in the long run you'll be better off and the sounds you're working with will be of higher quality. You should take a listen to the demos of libraries like Garritan Orchestral Strings (www.garritan.com), Quantum Leap Brass (available at Sounds Online), London Orchestral Percussion (from Big Fish Audio), and the Dan Dean line of products (www.dandeanpro.com). You'll end up spending a pretty fair chunk of money, but the sounds are first class. You'll need Gigastudio and a sequencer too, like Cakewalk or Cubase...
I guess I can sum this all up by saying 'Quality doesn't come cheap'. I think I would recommend either going all out and spending a bundle to go top end, or just sticking with what free soundfonts and other MIDI sounds you can find on the web... and save until you can buy the good stuff. Middle of the road libraries like AO will probably just use up money that could have gone towards more worthy purchases.
Of course that's all just my opinion :) But orchestral emulation is one arena where the old adage 'you get what you pay for' holds true in most cases.
-----------
I'll add that as far as all-in-one sets go, I've heard reasonably good things about the Prosonus Orchestral Collection, which would seem to cover about the same ground as Advanced Orchestra (but still falls well short of an arsenal of sounds from specialized libraries). Its also a good bit cheaper than AO, so you may be able to afford it and some specialized libraries to give you a more well rounded collection.
___________
I hope that helps somewhat. I look forward to hearing more cool music from you and the other composers making RW music!
#3
Just wodnering... What library did you use for the Brass in the two orc themes? That's one area that I've been hard pressed to find some decent materials for.
I take it the strings are Garritan?
I've also had a hard time finding decent fast attack strings. Is Garritan basically the best string set available right now?
I have Dan Dean and they're excellent. It's the violin in my little demo thing I threw together. As you probably recognized if you listened to it.
Nick:
I liked what you did although it definitely made me think of humans and castles and stuff. I also liked that melody you had with the horns at that one point (:30 - :37)I thought it was an interesting melody you threw int here.
Keep at it man! It's coming along really well.
04/25/2002 (6:01 pm)
Hi Joel, Just wodnering... What library did you use for the Brass in the two orc themes? That's one area that I've been hard pressed to find some decent materials for.
I take it the strings are Garritan?
I've also had a hard time finding decent fast attack strings. Is Garritan basically the best string set available right now?
I have Dan Dean and they're excellent. It's the violin in my little demo thing I threw together. As you probably recognized if you listened to it.
Nick:
I liked what you did although it definitely made me think of humans and castles and stuff. I also liked that melody you had with the horns at that one point (:30 - :37)I thought it was an interesting melody you threw int here.
Keep at it man! It's coming along really well.
#4
The orc theme brass is a combination of Dan Dean Solo Brass and Quantum Leap. I also used a free trumpet ensemble set which is excellent and can be found here.
For French Horns, I created two multilayered instruments with intensity controlled by the mod wheel. In each, I used the fff layers of the Dan Dean horn to get the punchy high end and the QLB ensemble to add fullness to the body. One instrument is a more staccato sound, the other is legato. Fooling around in GigaEdit can really yield some interetsing results when you aren't happy with what a library sounds like 'out of the box'!
DDSB has an awesomely loud and intense instrument in the tuba patch called 'Tuba Czar' which featured prominently in both pieces. The short tuba fp preset is also very punchy and loud.
For trumpets, I use both that SAM patch linked to above and a layered instrument similar to the French horns using QLB & DDSB.
For Trombones, I like the QLB ensemble straight up as-is. I occasinally also use the bass trombone portato from DDSB and the crescendos from QLB.
___________
For strings, its all Garritan except I still use the major/minor run-up patches from Advanced Orchestra (GOS could do that sound as well, but I generally find the AO patches more convenient since they sound nice and blend in well). The consensus seems to be that GOS is about as good as it gets. I only have experience with GOS and AO, personally. GOS of course blows AO away.
Most people will find a patch or two out of other string sets that they still like to use (alot of people like some of the Kirk Hunter library's patches) but GOS has more variety and in many cases a better sound than anything else out there. Kick in all the cool perks that the Maestro Tools program that comes with it allows (like alternating bow-strokes and true legato lines) and you have a winner.
That said, Sonic Implants is doing a large scale string library similar in scope to GOS, and its supposed to come out soon, so keep your eye out on that one. Im not sure how they'll have it priced. If its in the same ballpark as GOS, it will be pretty hard to get all the pros to switch over to it (unless its amazingly better in quality)
____________
And yeah, I did guess that it was the DD violin in your piece :) . I need to pick up that set. For around $100 its a heck of a bargain. I had a demo version of the viola, and layered over GOS it added just the right touch of expression and sharpness when I needed it.
Dan Dean is actually just finishing up a brass ensemble library, so you might want to consider waiting till he puts that out before you decide to buy one or the other. Of course, if you can afford it, buy em all and you'll have much more versatility!
04/26/2002 (12:56 pm)
Raison, The orc theme brass is a combination of Dan Dean Solo Brass and Quantum Leap. I also used a free trumpet ensemble set which is excellent and can be found here.
For French Horns, I created two multilayered instruments with intensity controlled by the mod wheel. In each, I used the fff layers of the Dan Dean horn to get the punchy high end and the QLB ensemble to add fullness to the body. One instrument is a more staccato sound, the other is legato. Fooling around in GigaEdit can really yield some interetsing results when you aren't happy with what a library sounds like 'out of the box'!
DDSB has an awesomely loud and intense instrument in the tuba patch called 'Tuba Czar' which featured prominently in both pieces. The short tuba fp preset is also very punchy and loud.
For trumpets, I use both that SAM patch linked to above and a layered instrument similar to the French horns using QLB & DDSB.
For Trombones, I like the QLB ensemble straight up as-is. I occasinally also use the bass trombone portato from DDSB and the crescendos from QLB.
___________
For strings, its all Garritan except I still use the major/minor run-up patches from Advanced Orchestra (GOS could do that sound as well, but I generally find the AO patches more convenient since they sound nice and blend in well). The consensus seems to be that GOS is about as good as it gets. I only have experience with GOS and AO, personally. GOS of course blows AO away.
Most people will find a patch or two out of other string sets that they still like to use (alot of people like some of the Kirk Hunter library's patches) but GOS has more variety and in many cases a better sound than anything else out there. Kick in all the cool perks that the Maestro Tools program that comes with it allows (like alternating bow-strokes and true legato lines) and you have a winner.
That said, Sonic Implants is doing a large scale string library similar in scope to GOS, and its supposed to come out soon, so keep your eye out on that one. Im not sure how they'll have it priced. If its in the same ballpark as GOS, it will be pretty hard to get all the pros to switch over to it (unless its amazingly better in quality)
____________
And yeah, I did guess that it was the DD violin in your piece :) . I need to pick up that set. For around $100 its a heck of a bargain. I had a demo version of the viola, and layered over GOS it added just the right touch of expression and sharpness when I needed it.
Dan Dean is actually just finishing up a brass ensemble library, so you might want to consider waiting till he puts that out before you decide to buy one or the other. Of course, if you can afford it, buy em all and you'll have much more versatility!
#5
04/26/2002 (2:19 pm)
NoT(Not on Topic): When you brought up space(having the music with the game would make a too big download) I wondered why you need a +20gb hd for RealmWars? It works fine with my 14gb...
#6
I've been really happy with the Dan Dean solo strings so I'll definitely keep an eye for the Brass library.
I know what you mean about the AO strings... they're just a little weak and I've heard samples of Garritan and they sound a lot better.
04/26/2002 (7:53 pm)
Thanks for the info JoelI've been really happy with the Dan Dean solo strings so I'll definitely keep an eye for the Brass library.
I know what you mean about the AO strings... they're just a little weak and I've heard samples of Garritan and they sound a lot better.
#7
I was trying to illustrate the point that one can't achieve the quality a musician can get using large instrument libraries if they are using DirectMusic and DLS sound sets to provide music for a game.
DLS sets have to ship with the game that has the music they will be used in, therefore they need to be relatively small. The instrument libraries I use are higher quality than DLS sets, and are much larger. If you wanted to have a DLS set that approached their quality, it would need to be rediculously large - too large to ship with a game, using present technology.
My comment was: until the day comes that its feasible to ship 20GB of sound data with a game, DirectMusic / DLS sounds will be inferior in quality to the sounds I can get using large instrument libraries and recording the music to a fixed format like .mp3 or .ogg .
Hope that clears things up.
04/26/2002 (11:19 pm)
Rasmus, if you're referring to the comments I made in the underscore thread concerning dynamic music and DLS libraries, you're misinterpreting what I wrote. I was trying to illustrate the point that one can't achieve the quality a musician can get using large instrument libraries if they are using DirectMusic and DLS sound sets to provide music for a game.
DLS sets have to ship with the game that has the music they will be used in, therefore they need to be relatively small. The instrument libraries I use are higher quality than DLS sets, and are much larger. If you wanted to have a DLS set that approached their quality, it would need to be rediculously large - too large to ship with a game, using present technology.
My comment was: until the day comes that its feasible to ship 20GB of sound data with a game, DirectMusic / DLS sounds will be inferior in quality to the sounds I can get using large instrument libraries and recording the music to a fixed format like .mp3 or .ogg .
Hope that clears things up.
#8
Ensure it is up-beat and very fast, with primitive drum-instruments and perhaps some voice/wind chorus, as well as a lot of powerful, quick string interjections. Basically, fast yet organized, primitive yet complex.
04/27/2002 (3:40 am)
I'm no music expert by leaps and bounds, but I'd make a few suggestions about the theme association being incorporated into the music:Ensure it is up-beat and very fast, with primitive drum-instruments and perhaps some voice/wind chorus, as well as a lot of powerful, quick string interjections. Basically, fast yet organized, primitive yet complex.
#9
So I did some trawling through some orchestral scores for films, came across one that kind of fits what I'm seeing in my head.
If you do a search for Jerry Goldsmith, a track of First Night called Never Surrender.
Its heavily choral, which I'm guessing isnt that easy todo with sample sets. But the theme sounds so battle like to me. Very bloody. Almost like its got the rythm of swordplay.
I'm getting the ogg files now, will have a quick listen.
Nice to see people getting interested.
Phil.
04/27/2002 (4:22 am)
Ive got this certain sound in mind, for an intro peice to the main RW game/s, basically an EFMV part, and the sound is very very specific.So I did some trawling through some orchestral scores for films, came across one that kind of fits what I'm seeing in my head.
If you do a search for Jerry Goldsmith, a track of First Night called Never Surrender.
Its heavily choral, which I'm guessing isnt that easy todo with sample sets. But the theme sounds so battle like to me. Very bloody. Almost like its got the rythm of swordplay.
I'm getting the ogg files now, will have a quick listen.
Nice to see people getting interested.
Phil.
#10
Phil, I think that gives us composers a very clear idea of what you'd like. Now, where do we find a chorus? Did any chorus members join up on this forum? heh. Actually, I work with the local symphony chorus here in town and have actually recorded them for part of an underscore to a WWI short. However, this is a little more involved-- the chorus would have a just a bit of practicing to do.
[added later:] I just ordered my gigastudio this morning and a better sound card that I've been putting off, and lo and behold, Peter Seidloczek (spell that three times fast) has a very good choral package out. Maybe I'll be able to come up with a decent attempt at what you want! Anybody have a good choral sample library?
Nick
04/27/2002 (6:39 am)
I posted a few days ago suggesting that you probably wanted "Orc music" like that from the Lord of the Rings, but that I can't do choral music, at least with a synth-- it is a very difficult sound to synthesize, apparently. I had a listen to a small portion Jerry Goldsmith's "Never Surrender" (aka "Arthur's Farewell) (very interesting to hear the Latin words meaning "The Lord God is holy! The Lord God is Holy!"-- crusader music, I guess) and it has the same sort of purpose and impact as JW's Jedi/Sith battle, and Howard Shore's Orc music. Phil, I think that gives us composers a very clear idea of what you'd like. Now, where do we find a chorus? Did any chorus members join up on this forum? heh. Actually, I work with the local symphony chorus here in town and have actually recorded them for part of an underscore to a WWI short. However, this is a little more involved-- the chorus would have a just a bit of practicing to do.
[added later:] I just ordered my gigastudio this morning and a better sound card that I've been putting off, and lo and behold, Peter Seidloczek (spell that three times fast) has a very good choral package out. Maybe I'll be able to come up with a decent attempt at what you want! Anybody have a good choral sample library?
Nick
#11
Symphony of Voices is a nice set with a lot of variations, but it doesn't have much in the way of really aggressive choral sounds. If I were making a choir purchase today, though, I would go for VoTA.
04/27/2002 (10:05 pm)
Actually as far as choral libraries go, I recommend you check out details on Voices of the Apocalypse from Quantum Leap. If I had the funds I'd have bought it already... It has multisampled consonants and vowels, lots of variety, and is definitely more suited to making big action choral sound than either the Siedlaczek set or Symphony of Voices (which I currently use). Its a bit pricey, and I've heard it takes a good deal of work to get the results you may want (since stringing together sampled letter sounds to make words is pretty time comsuming), but the results that can be achieved are very impressive.Symphony of Voices is a nice set with a lot of variations, but it doesn't have much in the way of really aggressive choral sounds. If I were making a choir purchase today, though, I would go for VoTA.
Torque Owner Jeff Tunnell
Nick, your music is very nice, but I think it is too sedate for a fantasy, action, shooter. The Orcs are primitive, monsterous, and mean. The music should refelct that. This is war!!
Jeff Tunnell GG