RPG Magic System Design
by Bryan Helmkamp · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 12/09/2000 (4:52 pm) · 59 replies
I'm working on developing an RPG and was wondering if you could describe some magic systems you have seen used in games. We have all seen the standard "mana & spell" scenario but I want to do something much better. Please post some magic systems you have seen or have thought up. Thanks.
#22
I don't see how the system I describes limits the abilities of mages at all.
Fighter levels up: Arbitrarily gets 5 points to to whatever he wants with. He can increase his sword skill, his axe skill, his bow skill, whatever (I never play fighters, not enough depth to them).
Mage levels up: Gets the same 5 points. The mage can increase his meager weaponry skills, but more likely will spend his points boosting a favorite spell. On a tangent, the FPS Red Faction has very well balanced weapons. The handgun is not quite as useful as the assault rifle, but the game can still be played through with that as the players primary weapon. Spells under my system are balanced similarly. The basic magic missile spell (you know every RPG has something like this) is weak at lower levels, but if the player is attached to it, he can decide to upgrade it. There are two paths the player could take, the increased speed path, or the increased power path. By the time a new spell comes along, magic missile is nearly comperable, and looks much cooler.
The idea is to add non-linearity to the spell system. I think it also plays into the profile of the typical mage player.
Now that I look back at it I really don't like the idea of a spell boosting item. I used all generic names because many games have similar classes, but different names.
10/29/2001 (10:37 am)
The idea is to have something unique about every mage. A player can hand craft his spells, the idea being that the player would become attached to his individuality of spell powers, speeds, effects, whatever.I don't see how the system I describes limits the abilities of mages at all.
Fighter levels up: Arbitrarily gets 5 points to to whatever he wants with. He can increase his sword skill, his axe skill, his bow skill, whatever (I never play fighters, not enough depth to them).
Mage levels up: Gets the same 5 points. The mage can increase his meager weaponry skills, but more likely will spend his points boosting a favorite spell. On a tangent, the FPS Red Faction has very well balanced weapons. The handgun is not quite as useful as the assault rifle, but the game can still be played through with that as the players primary weapon. Spells under my system are balanced similarly. The basic magic missile spell (you know every RPG has something like this) is weak at lower levels, but if the player is attached to it, he can decide to upgrade it. There are two paths the player could take, the increased speed path, or the increased power path. By the time a new spell comes along, magic missile is nearly comperable, and looks much cooler.
The idea is to add non-linearity to the spell system. I think it also plays into the profile of the typical mage player.
Now that I look back at it I really don't like the idea of a spell boosting item. I used all generic names because many games have similar classes, but different names.
#23
10/29/2001 (12:08 pm)
Ah!, I thought you meant the mage could either a. learn 1 new spell, or b. increase a single spell when he leveled.
#24
To complete or compliment Nicks idea then requires that spell be individually modifiable with other components. There would be base categories of spells, along with some pre-made modifications of those spells (probably the ones that seem the most obvious) as a start. Then you would have classes of modifications to the categories. Some of the modifications could be opposites and cancel each other out, allowing you to make specialized counter-spells to specialized attack spells. Of course, you could add modifications on top of modifications until you were no longer modifying the base spell buy modifying a modification, but there would be restrictions based upon some sort of metaphysical rules or something like that. It could get out of control, so some kinds of limits might be placed, or it could be left wide open. Let things fall as they may and let some crazed magic users spend weeks upon weeks coming up with some crazy mod spell that actually works. Of course, it could just as well fail and make the user look like an idiot when cast. It would add a level of depth that is rarely seen in RPG's that would be lots of fun to manipulate. Just a thought.
10/29/2001 (12:53 pm)
I really like Nick's idea, and the more customizable the better. If you could add your own options to the spells it would be great. Take a fireball spell for example. After a few level-ups it becomes a decently powerful fireball (nothing to write home about, but pretty powerful). Then you could add your own modifications instead of just making it more powerful. You could add more splash damage, when the spell explodes, it leave more fire behind and sets more things on fire. Or you could add a distance option, that keeps the ball focused over longer distances. Then you could add vision and control options. Imagine casting a fireball and then controlling it at it chases after fleeing bad guys, up and over hills and around corners. The more options you added, the more unique your spell would become. Add some kind of invisiblity and you could cast your fireball on unsuspecting opponents on the other side of the mountain range. A little wild, but with time and patience you could develop some really great spells.To complete or compliment Nicks idea then requires that spell be individually modifiable with other components. There would be base categories of spells, along with some pre-made modifications of those spells (probably the ones that seem the most obvious) as a start. Then you would have classes of modifications to the categories. Some of the modifications could be opposites and cancel each other out, allowing you to make specialized counter-spells to specialized attack spells. Of course, you could add modifications on top of modifications until you were no longer modifying the base spell buy modifying a modification, but there would be restrictions based upon some sort of metaphysical rules or something like that. It could get out of control, so some kinds of limits might be placed, or it could be left wide open. Let things fall as they may and let some crazed magic users spend weeks upon weeks coming up with some crazy mod spell that actually works. Of course, it could just as well fail and make the user look like an idiot when cast. It would add a level of depth that is rarely seen in RPG's that would be lots of fun to manipulate. Just a thought.
#25
I hadn't thought about it that hard, so props to you Peter.
Imagine the possibilities! Similarly to Black and White's creature that changes based on your alignment to good or evil, spell effects would be immensely variable.
It would be cool if you could name your own spells too. Let's say that a player came up with a spell based upon another spell called Ray. Ray is pretty weak, but has the feature of being instant strike (unlike fireball which would take time to get to its target). Let's say the player held on to it, and nurtured the spell up to greatness. Now his ray will reflect off flat surfaces, bend around large objects, light things on fire (like an ant under a magnifying glass), and generally look like the wrath of god. He could decide to call his version of ray something like "The Beam of Eternal Ownage".
That would be really cool.
10/30/2001 (8:09 pm)
YES! That is exactly the kind of thing I had in mind!I hadn't thought about it that hard, so props to you Peter.
Imagine the possibilities! Similarly to Black and White's creature that changes based on your alignment to good or evil, spell effects would be immensely variable.
It would be cool if you could name your own spells too. Let's say that a player came up with a spell based upon another spell called Ray. Ray is pretty weak, but has the feature of being instant strike (unlike fireball which would take time to get to its target). Let's say the player held on to it, and nurtured the spell up to greatness. Now his ray will reflect off flat surfaces, bend around large objects, light things on fire (like an ant under a magnifying glass), and generally look like the wrath of god. He could decide to call his version of ray something like "The Beam of Eternal Ownage".
That would be really cool.
#26
1. Spell Testing or the ability to fine tune the operation of spells. I'm not quite sure how this would work, but the concept allows the magic user to have some sort of detailed control over how a spell acts. Of course, if you knew exactly what would happen when you made changes to a spell, you could simply look up the effects in some sort of table. It would be better if the effects were controlled in the background by some sort of algorithms or set of equations (that the end users would not be able to see), that would require you to test a spell to see what the effects of modifying it would be. This would require magic users to spend time figuring out how spells react when modified. In a game like this, you would probably end up with two different classes of magic users, those who went with known spells and those who made these detailed modifications. Another thing that goes along with this concept is:
2. Spell Research This would act more like a skill than anything else. Instead of spending your time out in the world questing or whatever, you would be in a lab or wizards tower doing research, testing out spell combos and modifications. During this time, some of your other skills/attributes would suffer and probably slightly decrease from non-use (unless your praticing summoning and you keep having to fight the things you summon incorrectly). This would give you the chance to have spectacular failures without hurting or killing those around you. Of course, when you came up with some amazing spell that made you the coolest wizard in the universe you would want to be able to benefit from it. Especially if everyone else wanted it. Which leads into the next idea:
3. The magical economy So, you just spent the last two years (game time) creating a party teleportation spell that can either cloak you when you arrive, or set off a huge explosion as you arrive or turn every monster into jello right after you arrive (you'll be hungry from casting the spell and beside, you really like jello). Of course, everybody else spent the last two years questing and making money and getting tougher, what are you going to do. SELL the spell(for the right price of course)! Your wouldn't be selling the ability to cast the spell, just the components, modifications and anything else special that you need to know in order to be able to cast the spell. Maybe you want to keep a few tricks up your sleeve, so you could sell a version with a few of the better modifications missing. Totally up to you. The better the spell, the more you have to gain from it. In some cases you could double your money if you sell a new attack spell and it's counter-spell (both of which could have weaknesses you already know how to exploit). Just think of the possiblities.
Well, that's all. Enjoy
11/01/2001 (4:13 pm)
I thought of more detail that I would like to add to what I posted earlier. There are a couple of ways that you can expand upon the spell modification idea. Here are a couple:1. Spell Testing or the ability to fine tune the operation of spells. I'm not quite sure how this would work, but the concept allows the magic user to have some sort of detailed control over how a spell acts. Of course, if you knew exactly what would happen when you made changes to a spell, you could simply look up the effects in some sort of table. It would be better if the effects were controlled in the background by some sort of algorithms or set of equations (that the end users would not be able to see), that would require you to test a spell to see what the effects of modifying it would be. This would require magic users to spend time figuring out how spells react when modified. In a game like this, you would probably end up with two different classes of magic users, those who went with known spells and those who made these detailed modifications. Another thing that goes along with this concept is:
2. Spell Research This would act more like a skill than anything else. Instead of spending your time out in the world questing or whatever, you would be in a lab or wizards tower doing research, testing out spell combos and modifications. During this time, some of your other skills/attributes would suffer and probably slightly decrease from non-use (unless your praticing summoning and you keep having to fight the things you summon incorrectly). This would give you the chance to have spectacular failures without hurting or killing those around you. Of course, when you came up with some amazing spell that made you the coolest wizard in the universe you would want to be able to benefit from it. Especially if everyone else wanted it. Which leads into the next idea:
3. The magical economy So, you just spent the last two years (game time) creating a party teleportation spell that can either cloak you when you arrive, or set off a huge explosion as you arrive or turn every monster into jello right after you arrive (you'll be hungry from casting the spell and beside, you really like jello). Of course, everybody else spent the last two years questing and making money and getting tougher, what are you going to do. SELL the spell(for the right price of course)! Your wouldn't be selling the ability to cast the spell, just the components, modifications and anything else special that you need to know in order to be able to cast the spell. Maybe you want to keep a few tricks up your sleeve, so you could sell a version with a few of the better modifications missing. Totally up to you. The better the spell, the more you have to gain from it. In some cases you could double your money if you sell a new attack spell and it's counter-spell (both of which could have weaknesses you already know how to exploit). Just think of the possiblities.
Well, that's all. Enjoy
#27
11/03/2001 (3:38 pm)
Just wanted to say that I really like these posts about customized spells, keep the ideas flowing!
#28
Your going to hit a hard limit on the number of spells anyways.
Hows about treating magic like a skill, but allowing progression in the skill to unlock further skills or skill trees. Just make sure the investment in the both sides of the scale are balanced out.
09/23/2002 (4:43 am)
Only drawback with Dynamic spell types are there not so Dynamic.Your going to hit a hard limit on the number of spells anyways.
Hows about treating magic like a skill, but allowing progression in the skill to unlock further skills or skill trees. Just make sure the investment in the both sides of the scale are balanced out.
#29
The greatest examples, IMHO, are Secret of Evermore (Legendary SNES Game), Final Fantasy VIII (PSX) and Chrono Cross (PSX).
Secret of Evermore:
As one of the first posts said, you have to collect the formula for a spell and its ingredients, in order to use it. Maybe tricky for a player to learn, but with a few tutorials it makes a fresh departure from standard RPG games we see.
Final Fantasy VIII:
Magic is not bought from novelty shops scattered around towns; you Draw it from enemies during battle. Maybe it is the idea of acquiring an ultra-powerful spell from the enemy that just used it on you that makes this so interesting.
Chrono Cross:
Although in this game, you buy spells in shops, there are some that can only be used when you have "filled" the battlefield with its corresponding color.
It is a little complicated to explain all in plain text, but there are some sites on the internet with video footages of the latter Playstation games. It is worth checking out.
Other games I recommend examining are from the Baldur's Gate series. Personally, the magic system involved in them didn't get me to play as a mage.
This is something that always happens in most RPGs. The magic-users are old men with staves and lame statistics. They stink, specially if you like to play a game out all by yourself. I wish I could see something different regarding this.
02/14/2003 (1:49 am)
Look for Japanese RPGs. They always innovate, specially regarding magic.The greatest examples, IMHO, are Secret of Evermore (Legendary SNES Game), Final Fantasy VIII (PSX) and Chrono Cross (PSX).
Secret of Evermore:
As one of the first posts said, you have to collect the formula for a spell and its ingredients, in order to use it. Maybe tricky for a player to learn, but with a few tutorials it makes a fresh departure from standard RPG games we see.
Final Fantasy VIII:
Magic is not bought from novelty shops scattered around towns; you Draw it from enemies during battle. Maybe it is the idea of acquiring an ultra-powerful spell from the enemy that just used it on you that makes this so interesting.
Chrono Cross:
Although in this game, you buy spells in shops, there are some that can only be used when you have "filled" the battlefield with its corresponding color.
It is a little complicated to explain all in plain text, but there are some sites on the internet with video footages of the latter Playstation games. It is worth checking out.
Other games I recommend examining are from the Baldur's Gate series. Personally, the magic system involved in them didn't get me to play as a mage.
This is something that always happens in most RPGs. The magic-users are old men with staves and lame statistics. They stink, specially if you like to play a game out all by yourself. I wish I could see something different regarding this.
#30
Just a wild thought.
03/06/2003 (2:13 pm)
Good magic systems really are dependant upon the nature of the game world. But if you're looking for something unique, you could try a language based system, one where certain words carry certain metaphysical meanings or tap certain arcane energies. Thus, incantations to deliver a certain effect would depend on the right words being spoken in the right order. The trick would be making it such that there was a cost (fatigue/mana/stamina/blood) in actually making the incantation, and that ordinary mortals would not be able to just speak the words to acheive the effects. This might well lend itself to wizards who have to train their bodies as much as their minds in order to cast spells.Just a wild thought.
#31
There was also a game called "Dungeon Master" that was for the NES, but that was completely different. So don't get them confused.
Each spell had up to about 5 symbols. You would have to find the spell's formula written on a scroll somewhere to learn how to cast it. If you just picked a random combination, you might find a spell or it might not do anything.
The first symbol of each spell would be a "strength symbol". All this symbol did was determine how powerful the spell is going to be. You could only cast spells that you were skilled enough to cast (if you weren't it would just fizzle - for spells you're almost skilled enough for, sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't), and more powerful spells would cost more mana.
The first symbol by itself never does anything.
The second symbol of each spell would be the "element" symbol (i.e. air, earth, fire, water, or a couple other things). With just the first symbol and the second symbol, you could actually cast spells.
The later symbols modified what the spells did, but I don't remember much about them. I think fireball took 3 symbols.
I thought this system was pretty cool.
- Steve Fletcher
03/07/2003 (4:03 pm)
There was a game called "Dungeon Master" (and it's sequel "Chaos Strikes Back") that had a system like Axel described. Except the "language" in the spells were really symbols.There was also a game called "Dungeon Master" that was for the NES, but that was completely different. So don't get them confused.
Each spell had up to about 5 symbols. You would have to find the spell's formula written on a scroll somewhere to learn how to cast it. If you just picked a random combination, you might find a spell or it might not do anything.
The first symbol of each spell would be a "strength symbol". All this symbol did was determine how powerful the spell is going to be. You could only cast spells that you were skilled enough to cast (if you weren't it would just fizzle - for spells you're almost skilled enough for, sometimes it would work and sometimes it wouldn't), and more powerful spells would cost more mana.
The first symbol by itself never does anything.
The second symbol of each spell would be the "element" symbol (i.e. air, earth, fire, water, or a couple other things). With just the first symbol and the second symbol, you could actually cast spells.
The later symbols modified what the spells did, but I don't remember much about them. I think fireball took 3 symbols.
I thought this system was pretty cool.
- Steve Fletcher
#32
03/07/2003 (5:39 pm)
DARKLANDS- PC DOS- and alchemist based system for magic. Characters age, hundreds of skills, jobs, traits. Isometric view like warcraft 1. Excellent game. all the ultima's have had unique systems.
#33
So, as it becomes mainstream (as most innovations do, heh heh!), I hope you look forward to Infinity in the future, because it's going to be just that good!
Oh, and sorry if I seem to brag, but I'm becoming fed up with the constant put-downs to us indies with the will and determination to get something big done, and the constant repetition of 'rehashed' remarks towards games, so I'm going to prove both statements wrong at the same time! As for those who go up the ladder one rung at a time, it's just not my style cause I'm all about big dreams. And besides, it's NOT about the money!
- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus
03/07/2003 (6:24 pm)
Some people hit close to home (not mentioning who, lol) but I've got a decent magic system design which is skill based and EXTREMELY customizable to the players, yet very simple to do! So far, I'm using it in both MMORPGs I'm doing, the one which I signed up for introducing it first, then my own INFINITY taking it beyond it's formula!So, as it becomes mainstream (as most innovations do, heh heh!), I hope you look forward to Infinity in the future, because it's going to be just that good!
Oh, and sorry if I seem to brag, but I'm becoming fed up with the constant put-downs to us indies with the will and determination to get something big done, and the constant repetition of 'rehashed' remarks towards games, so I'm going to prove both statements wrong at the same time! As for those who go up the ladder one rung at a time, it's just not my style cause I'm all about big dreams. And besides, it's NOT about the money!
- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus
#34
example.
Pyros bolt
Fire Ball
you just string the words in the right order and you can modify and creat spells
like multi pyro bolt = shot gun o flame
you'd have to split up the possible types of spell into there base components, to me that is: Enchantments/offensive/defensive
these can be like methods, how the magic is used.
then you give it elements, fire water wind and stone
this determines the abilities propertie, like a defense fire spell can be known as a Flame sheild.
and a Form modifier is good, this can determine the way it effects the way it effects the target, like to all members in a party or to just random targets or just one person, like a heal all, or heal one.
then some multiplier numbers that determine how much energy is put into spells. like fire ball *10 will draw ten times more energy and does ten times the effect or damage.
that's my idea runn with it.
04/30/2003 (10:57 am)
as anyone thought about makeing a very simple scripting text that can be inturpretted by the game to become a spell???example.
Pyros bolt
Fire Ball
you just string the words in the right order and you can modify and creat spells
like multi pyro bolt = shot gun o flame
you'd have to split up the possible types of spell into there base components, to me that is: Enchantments/offensive/defensive
these can be like methods, how the magic is used.
then you give it elements, fire water wind and stone
this determines the abilities propertie, like a defense fire spell can be known as a Flame sheild.
and a Form modifier is good, this can determine the way it effects the way it effects the target, like to all members in a party or to just random targets or just one person, like a heal all, or heal one.
then some multiplier numbers that determine how much energy is put into spells. like fire ball *10 will draw ten times more energy and does ten times the effect or damage.
that's my idea runn with it.
#35
as well as creating spells by choosing different runes\ingredients etc what about having different casting styles eg one charecter is your standard mage, he mixes runes to make spells and can cast them at any time (limited by a charecteristic) but then youve got a technomage, he'd have the same choices of runes but instead of casting spells he could put them onto items
so he'd have an advantage over the mage (no limit to the amount of items they could create) but disadvantages as well (items take a while to create so if you havent got the right item for the current situation your pretty stuffed)I've thought of other classes ( psychic, martial artist) whos magic would do different things eg the martial artist has control over his body the psychic could confuse people etc. I also thought of combining styles eg combining the body control of martial arts with technomancy to turn yourself into a cyborg.
So what do you think?
05/13/2003 (3:28 am)
just thought i's add my little comntribution to this as this thread really helped me with my game design (and to make something go above that Porno thread) ok here goesas well as creating spells by choosing different runes\ingredients etc what about having different casting styles eg one charecter is your standard mage, he mixes runes to make spells and can cast them at any time (limited by a charecteristic) but then youve got a technomage, he'd have the same choices of runes but instead of casting spells he could put them onto items
so he'd have an advantage over the mage (no limit to the amount of items they could create) but disadvantages as well (items take a while to create so if you havent got the right item for the current situation your pretty stuffed)I've thought of other classes ( psychic, martial artist) whos magic would do different things eg the martial artist has control over his body the psychic could confuse people etc. I also thought of combining styles eg combining the body control of martial arts with technomancy to turn yourself into a cyborg.
So what do you think?
#36
And this was the original idea of the game since 1994 :)
Infinity - The wait only seems forever, the experience is what will last!
If you want to hear more, please feel free to drop me a line.
- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus
05/13/2003 (5:59 pm)
Thanks Ben for coming even closer to my own plans. You see, magic won't be the only skill that depends on a player's precision to 'work their magic', it will encompass the entire skill tree and with each level-up a player will actually learn on their own how they've become more proficient in their skills, the raw phisical elements that are at work, and using this knowledge (which can also be taught ;) they can combine skills to create even more unique items, spells, and even more skills!And this was the original idea of the game since 1994 :)
Infinity - The wait only seems forever, the experience is what will last!
If you want to hear more, please feel free to drop me a line.
- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus
#37
Also, take a look at "Champions" the pen and paper game, that system can get REAL interesting.
-Jeff
05/13/2003 (6:16 pm)
I was going to suggest looking at Dungeon Master's system (my favorite), until Steve mentioned it.Also, take a look at "Champions" the pen and paper game, that system can get REAL interesting.
-Jeff
#38
ie. To cast a spell, you actually have to physically draw a rune on the screen with the mouse. The power level of the spell could be adjusted depending on how exact the rune was drawn.
Really powerful spells could have extremely complex runes or even multiple runes required to case the spell hencem, taking more time and, the better the actually user gets at drawing the runes the faster he can cast.
It would certainly be interesting in a real time RPG anyway :)
Probably not what you are looking for though but ti is certainly another option
05/13/2003 (7:44 pm)
One system I think would be really awesome to see in a RPG would be something similiar to Black and White.ie. To cast a spell, you actually have to physically draw a rune on the screen with the mouse. The power level of the spell could be adjusted depending on how exact the rune was drawn.
Really powerful spells could have extremely complex runes or even multiple runes required to case the spell hencem, taking more time and, the better the actually user gets at drawing the runes the faster he can cast.
It would certainly be interesting in a real time RPG anyway :)
Probably not what you are looking for though but ti is certainly another option
#39
05/22/2003 (1:02 am)
the rpg arx fatalis has a system very simmilar to what youved just described daniel
#40
06/30/2003 (8:02 pm)
If anybody is interested on designing programs i have a few an i give them out for free.Please contact me 
Robert Brim
Why would anyone want to play a mage if they are going to get very little reward for leveling?
They would be better off going for a different class and leveling where they will get some skills and be able to fight.