RPG Magic System Design
by Bryan Helmkamp · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 12/09/2000 (4:52 pm) · 59 replies
I'm working on developing an RPG and was wondering if you could describe some magic systems you have seen used in games. We have all seen the standard "mana & spell" scenario but I want to do something much better. Please post some magic systems you have seen or have thought up. Thanks.
#3
That idea is great and could be used in a magic game really well. For example, you might have a rune that means "fire" and another that means "air" and together they create a light spell.
I like the idea of the player being able to combine spells to make something unique - instead of having one hundred spells, give the player heaps of ingredients and let them experiement.
12/12/2000 (10:11 pm)
I played a game ages ago where you collected runes and herbs abd stuff which could be mixed together to create spells. That idea is great and could be used in a magic game really well. For example, you might have a rune that means "fire" and another that means "air" and together they create a light spell.
I like the idea of the player being able to combine spells to make something unique - instead of having one hundred spells, give the player heaps of ingredients and let them experiement.
#4
Thought: anger and calmness could affect hit rates...
Sorry to complicate your lives so. :)
12/13/2000 (8:32 am)
Just an idea, but how about some kind of spiritual strength/resolve system? I'll try to explain clearly; the amount of damage caused by the spell and/or the amount of magic points/whatever used could be determined by factors of the character, i.e. if they were permanently angry, but had incredible self control, then their spells would do a lot of damage. However, a pacifist mage with little discipline could only cast weaker spells... a combination of psychological traits could make up a char's magic power... perhaps facets like self control and temperament could be altered in-game by acts such as meditation, or certain items could have a short-term effect.. just a thought to play with.Thought: anger and calmness could affect hit rates...
Sorry to complicate your lives so. :)
#5
One magic system I like is a combination of magic systems I've seen in Daggerfall, Shadowrun and AD&D...
Basically, there are two kinds of magic: ritual and "fast" magic. Ritual magic takes some time (a bit hard to do on a MMORPG), but doesn't drain mana (although it drains essence). "Fast" magic is instantaneous, but it takes mana.
Now, mana is the lifeforce of a character... He puts some of himself in his magic, so it's the equivelent of having taken damage. Why mana ? Because of the game problems there would be if the wizard could cast anything, anytime... The player can also customize how much mana drain will a particular spell do, with a corresponding effect in power (a very large fireball or lots of small ones?). Of course, as a mage user, the player can recharge by recombining himself with the earth or something metaphysical like that...
Ritual magic is for more complex magics (some may even require more than a spellcaster). It works in (guess) ritualistic manner, as takes some time to do. But it drains essence. Essence is an attribute that defines how much mana can a character accumulate... Loss in essence is permanent (unless reverted by a ritual magic invoked by other mages)... Cybernetic implants and such also take up some of the essence... Essence describes the ammount of linkage an individual has with the astral plane. Why does ritual magic consume essence ? Because the astral planes doesn't like to be tampered, and ritual magic distorts the astral plane (as opposed to "fast" magic, that just distorts the normal plane).
ANother aspect of magic in this system is the ability to create new spells... Here, we could use some stuff on genetic algorithms or such to create hibrid spells, that would combine simple effects into greater things. Create, for example, 10 traits in a spell, and you get 10^10 spells - of course some of them would be useless, others would have the same effect (mainly the pyrotechnics would change), but still it has a lot of a cool touch...
Another approach to this magic system thingie is to model the magic as physics, so that magic can be countered (almost never seen in games, except for the standart magic barrier) with something completely unexpected. For example, model the fireball as a rapid propagation of heated air waves. Then, model wind as a change in propagation of air waves. Then, you cast a fireball at a target, and the target responds with a wind spell... Tada! The fireball is deflected, even if the game designer didn't think of this!
Hey, this thread is pretty cool... :)
Diogo de Andrade
dgan@mega.ist.utl.pt
12/14/2000 (10:03 am)
Hi all!One magic system I like is a combination of magic systems I've seen in Daggerfall, Shadowrun and AD&D...
Basically, there are two kinds of magic: ritual and "fast" magic. Ritual magic takes some time (a bit hard to do on a MMORPG), but doesn't drain mana (although it drains essence). "Fast" magic is instantaneous, but it takes mana.
Now, mana is the lifeforce of a character... He puts some of himself in his magic, so it's the equivelent of having taken damage. Why mana ? Because of the game problems there would be if the wizard could cast anything, anytime... The player can also customize how much mana drain will a particular spell do, with a corresponding effect in power (a very large fireball or lots of small ones?). Of course, as a mage user, the player can recharge by recombining himself with the earth or something metaphysical like that...
Ritual magic is for more complex magics (some may even require more than a spellcaster). It works in (guess) ritualistic manner, as takes some time to do. But it drains essence. Essence is an attribute that defines how much mana can a character accumulate... Loss in essence is permanent (unless reverted by a ritual magic invoked by other mages)... Cybernetic implants and such also take up some of the essence... Essence describes the ammount of linkage an individual has with the astral plane. Why does ritual magic consume essence ? Because the astral planes doesn't like to be tampered, and ritual magic distorts the astral plane (as opposed to "fast" magic, that just distorts the normal plane).
ANother aspect of magic in this system is the ability to create new spells... Here, we could use some stuff on genetic algorithms or such to create hibrid spells, that would combine simple effects into greater things. Create, for example, 10 traits in a spell, and you get 10^10 spells - of course some of them would be useless, others would have the same effect (mainly the pyrotechnics would change), but still it has a lot of a cool touch...
Another approach to this magic system thingie is to model the magic as physics, so that magic can be countered (almost never seen in games, except for the standart magic barrier) with something completely unexpected. For example, model the fireball as a rapid propagation of heated air waves. Then, model wind as a change in propagation of air waves. Then, you cast a fireball at a target, and the target responds with a wind spell... Tada! The fireball is deflected, even if the game designer didn't think of this!
Hey, this thread is pretty cool... :)
Diogo de Andrade
dgan@mega.ist.utl.pt
#6
So... what are you trying to accomplish exactly?
12/17/2000 (11:30 pm)
Its really a question of what you are trying to accomplish with the magic system, and its relative importance in the game...So... what are you trying to accomplish exactly?
#7
Keep with the age-old idea of MP...but with a twist.
Magic uses the caster's essence (MP) to cast a spell. Using this idea, certain spells might take a lot out of a mage and cause him to need a longer time between attacks to recoup. If a spell is too powerful for his level he might even lose some HP, become confused, paralyzed or may even lose his life (swoon, faint, whatever) and need to be revived before he can fight again.
02/14/2001 (9:19 am)
Just an idea....Keep with the age-old idea of MP...but with a twist.
Magic uses the caster's essence (MP) to cast a spell. Using this idea, certain spells might take a lot out of a mage and cause him to need a longer time between attacks to recoup. If a spell is too powerful for his level he might even lose some HP, become confused, paralyzed or may even lose his life (swoon, faint, whatever) and need to be revived before he can fight again.
#8
though the combining spell effects with a GA sounds wonderful. you'd have to incorporate a way for the characters to save the spells they create for future use. because even if you only had 3 spells youd have more than 6 different combinations
3 spells give you
3 visual effects
3 durations
3 game effects
casting time say 1-10 seconds
and thats just assuming you have only those attributes
thats 3*3*3*10 or 270 different spells only if you do it the most rudimentary way. say combining 2 spells can merge the effect, or randomly choose one effect etc...
eventually though your characters would just create the same spell
all three visuals
long duration
all the effects
and casting time of 1
heres a thought though say if you have 20 different spells then at level one your caster can only cast one spell at a time as he progresses levels he can cast as many spells as levels at once so a level 2 caster can cast a fireball at the enemy while shielding himself. with 20 different spells at level 20 you have too many spell effects for me to even think about let me right a quick program and i'll be back.
1.10376421052632E+26
or 110,376,421,052,632,000,000,000,000 give or take a hundred billion ;)
program in vb(dont flame me)
assuming that a lvl 20 can cast 20 of the same spell for cumulitave effect or just cast 1 spell if so desired or anything in between.
of course now that i think of it i'm sure nothing i said helped you. :)
05/11/2001 (6:54 am)
I always like the premise of AD&D's Darksuns magic where to cast magic you had to drain the mana from the area. so you had two types of magicians the preservers who tried to temper the drain they took so as not to affect the wildlife and the (cant remember name desecrators?) that would just completely suck up any mana available with no concern for the wildlife.though the combining spell effects with a GA sounds wonderful. you'd have to incorporate a way for the characters to save the spells they create for future use. because even if you only had 3 spells youd have more than 6 different combinations
3 spells give you
3 visual effects
3 durations
3 game effects
casting time say 1-10 seconds
and thats just assuming you have only those attributes
thats 3*3*3*10 or 270 different spells only if you do it the most rudimentary way. say combining 2 spells can merge the effect, or randomly choose one effect etc...
eventually though your characters would just create the same spell
all three visuals
long duration
all the effects
and casting time of 1
heres a thought though say if you have 20 different spells then at level one your caster can only cast one spell at a time as he progresses levels he can cast as many spells as levels at once so a level 2 caster can cast a fireball at the enemy while shielding himself. with 20 different spells at level 20 you have too many spell effects for me to even think about let me right a quick program and i'll be back.
1.10376421052632E+26
or 110,376,421,052,632,000,000,000,000 give or take a hundred billion ;)
program in vb(dont flame me)
Private Sub Command1_Click() numspells = 0 For i = 1 To 20 numspells = numspells + (20 ^ i) Next i Text1.Text = numspells End Sub
assuming that a lvl 20 can cast 20 of the same spell for cumulitave effect or just cast 1 spell if so desired or anything in between.
of course now that i think of it i'm sure nothing i said helped you. :)
#9
For a game with lots of reagents that combine to make spells, there will be a web site which is dedicated to finding every possible combination and highliting the best ones.
For a game like EQ or UO, you can bet there's a site that lists each one, and tells you if they're worth purchasing or not.
etc..
I've been trying to design a system ala Magic: The Gathering. Where mages would 'build' a spell based on components, then call upon that spell during a duel.
However, just like M:TG, there would be sites listing the best 'decks'. Although this is not so bad if you start thinking in terms of 'rare' items, etc. Especially if casting the powerful spells requires using up a rare item. The in-game econimics of these spell components could add an interesting level to game play.
--Bryan
05/11/2001 (4:59 pm)
Make sure, whatever method you choose, that the meta-game won't make your magic system obsolete.For a game with lots of reagents that combine to make spells, there will be a web site which is dedicated to finding every possible combination and highliting the best ones.
For a game like EQ or UO, you can bet there's a site that lists each one, and tells you if they're worth purchasing or not.
etc..
I've been trying to design a system ala Magic: The Gathering. Where mages would 'build' a spell based on components, then call upon that spell during a duel.
However, just like M:TG, there would be sites listing the best 'decks'. Although this is not so bad if you start thinking in terms of 'rare' items, etc. Especially if casting the powerful spells requires using up a rare item. The in-game econimics of these spell components could add an interesting level to game play.
--Bryan
#10
I believe that you are approaching the problem at the wrong angle. Instead of asking how it has allreay been implemented, think of it only in terms of your game. What part does magic play in the game? Ignore any systems to start with, and just work out how magic fits into your universe. After you have done that, think of how spells are cast in your umiverse and devise a system that will fit with your game, and how you perceive magic in it. The magic system should be made with only your game in mind.
When you have done that, you should have devised a system fit for your game. If it is similar to others, then at least you know it is because it's right for your game, and it wasn't just 'tacked' on.
I may have going a bit far with that, but what I am saying is just to try and make the system tie in with the way your world works. I am not saying that you shouldn't borrow from others, but just make sure that the system is right for your game.
05/11/2001 (5:41 pm)
I'm pretty late to this thread, and haven't read all of the posts. I'm sure that some cool systems have been thought up, but this is really in answer to the 1st post.I believe that you are approaching the problem at the wrong angle. Instead of asking how it has allreay been implemented, think of it only in terms of your game. What part does magic play in the game? Ignore any systems to start with, and just work out how magic fits into your universe. After you have done that, think of how spells are cast in your umiverse and devise a system that will fit with your game, and how you perceive magic in it. The magic system should be made with only your game in mind.
When you have done that, you should have devised a system fit for your game. If it is similar to others, then at least you know it is because it's right for your game, and it wasn't just 'tacked' on.
I may have going a bit far with that, but what I am saying is just to try and make the system tie in with the way your world works. I am not saying that you shouldn't borrow from others, but just make sure that the system is right for your game.
#11
A LONG time ago (on an Amiga I think) I played a game called Dragonspell(??? or DragonSomething). It had the best magic system, shame the actual game wasn't that great but the magic kept me amused for ages.
Basically it was an essence system where you mixed various essences as at least one person mentioned above. But it was a LOT more complex than most systems I've seen since so that you could only make an educated guess what the outcome would be of mixing various proportions of essences. Some guesses would be hideously wrong, others spectacularly successful but most would be average and more or less what you expected. You had to keep a diary of previous spells and you felt like a real alchemist (for want of a better word).
The game itself involved breeding dragons, you could cast spells on dragon eggs or live dragons in order to give them different abilities/stats. The dragons were used to find essences and to fight other players dragons.
I'm explaining the game for a reason, essences were scarce so no matter how many great speels you discovered, most of the time you had to improvise for lack of the right raw material. I'm not sure but I think dragon alignment, moon phase and other stuff came into it as well, so even if you had all the materials you might not be able to wait for the right time to cast it or the right dragon.
It seemed that the whole thing was governed by some sort of complex system of equations that I'm sure the developers didn't even totally understand. Wish I could remember more, I'd love to make a modern clone of it :(
05/11/2001 (7:09 pm)
Haven't got time to read all the posts like William.A LONG time ago (on an Amiga I think) I played a game called Dragonspell(??? or DragonSomething). It had the best magic system, shame the actual game wasn't that great but the magic kept me amused for ages.
Basically it was an essence system where you mixed various essences as at least one person mentioned above. But it was a LOT more complex than most systems I've seen since so that you could only make an educated guess what the outcome would be of mixing various proportions of essences. Some guesses would be hideously wrong, others spectacularly successful but most would be average and more or less what you expected. You had to keep a diary of previous spells and you felt like a real alchemist (for want of a better word).
The game itself involved breeding dragons, you could cast spells on dragon eggs or live dragons in order to give them different abilities/stats. The dragons were used to find essences and to fight other players dragons.
I'm explaining the game for a reason, essences were scarce so no matter how many great speels you discovered, most of the time you had to improvise for lack of the right raw material. I'm not sure but I think dragon alignment, moon phase and other stuff came into it as well, so even if you had all the materials you might not be able to wait for the right time to cast it or the right dragon.
It seemed that the whole thing was governed by some sort of complex system of equations that I'm sure the developers didn't even totally understand. Wish I could remember more, I'd love to make a modern clone of it :(
#12
The spell system was really fantastic. You had all the processes you could put the ingredients through before they were added to your potion. You would choose how much to add, then crush it, or mix it or whatever, adjust the bunsen burner flame, and do things with water and that. It was brilliant. You could work out the uses of some ingedients, and substitute with others, but the range of spells was enourmous. And you could use it on the dragons eggs, or on them when they hatch. Or you could even use them on the towns. It was really amazing, to this day I don't know how the system works. It just seems so realistic. It wasn't choose 3 ingredient and make spell X. You had to apply all the things to the ingredients, and choose how much, and you could put as many in as you wanted... it was multi-player too. That game was just sooooooooo good.
You'll have to take my word for it though, I can't remember everything in it, and even if I could I doubt I could explain it all properly. See if you can get it for the PC now as freeware though, I'll bet you'll love the game even though it's so ancient. It had a really cool game as well as the spell system. Hatching the eggs was sooooooo cool. Mmm... I just need to find a copy now...
05/12/2001 (6:57 pm)
Oh yeah, I had that game for the Atari, it was amazing! I've just remembered the name, it was DragonsBreath... I think.The spell system was really fantastic. You had all the processes you could put the ingredients through before they were added to your potion. You would choose how much to add, then crush it, or mix it or whatever, adjust the bunsen burner flame, and do things with water and that. It was brilliant. You could work out the uses of some ingedients, and substitute with others, but the range of spells was enourmous. And you could use it on the dragons eggs, or on them when they hatch. Or you could even use them on the towns. It was really amazing, to this day I don't know how the system works. It just seems so realistic. It wasn't choose 3 ingredient and make spell X. You had to apply all the things to the ingredients, and choose how much, and you could put as many in as you wanted... it was multi-player too. That game was just sooooooooo good.
You'll have to take my word for it though, I can't remember everything in it, and even if I could I doubt I could explain it all properly. See if you can get it for the PC now as freeware though, I'll bet you'll love the game even though it's so ancient. It had a really cool game as well as the spell system. Hatching the eggs was sooooooo cool. Mmm... I just need to find a copy now...
#13
05/13/2001 (5:07 am)
Yeah, thats the one, I'd forgotten about the mixing and heating and so on. You had a virtual chemistry lab didn't you? Let me know if you find a copy, I'll have a look too.
#14
I CAN'T FIND THE MANUAL!!!!! Argh.
It has a check at the start saying wahts the 1st word on line 20 on page 3 or whatever, and I don't have the manual so I can't play it!
Ah well, I suppose it's all for the best. I suspect that if I did manage to play it, it just wouldn't have been as impressive as it was when it was released...
05/22/2001 (6:19 pm)
I haven't been able to find it on the net anywhere, and trust me - it wasn't through lack of trying. Tell you what's really gutting though, I still have my Atari STe, and I found the disk for Dragonsbreath, get this - I CAN'T FIND THE MANUAL!!!!! Argh.
It has a check at the start saying wahts the 1st word on line 20 on page 3 or whatever, and I don't have the manual so I can't play it!
Ah well, I suppose it's all for the best. I suspect that if I did manage to play it, it just wouldn't have been as impressive as it was when it was released...
#15
05/22/2001 (9:19 pm)
I think casting spells was a bit hit and miss without the manual too :(
#16
Owen
07/26/2001 (9:30 am)
Try a magic economy as well like Asheron's Call. Sure there will be a website out there saying mix this and that and a pinch of the other and get walking death, but if it is used regularly it loses it potency.Owen
#17
07/27/2001 (7:38 am)
check out champions/hero system rpg, they have some great ways of resolving just about anything for pnp, maybe you'll get some ideas.
#19
magical element.Psychic powers , and cast them in the same way u use a weapon (in Fallout i mean , because the turnbased combat mode is the best thing i have ever seen,
cause it gives u the oportunity to use some tactics not just hit randomly like in Diablo).So if u played Fallout u should have a idea of what i'm talking about.Spells should be something like:telepaty(to manipulate the mind of an enemy and turn him on your side for a turn), telekinesis(to use a brain wave to hit your enemy and also damage something like lets say his perception), and other stuff like this.Now this is a pretty cool system but if u haven't played fallout , you won't understand shit!
This is just a simple description of course.
09/05/2001 (8:12 pm)
Well ,i will post something diffrent.As i don't like fantasy RPG (only played Fallout , because it was the only one that "caught me") , i thought of an ideea of making a SF RPG kinda like Fallout but implement a pseudomagical element.Psychic powers , and cast them in the same way u use a weapon (in Fallout i mean , because the turnbased combat mode is the best thing i have ever seen,
cause it gives u the oportunity to use some tactics not just hit randomly like in Diablo).So if u played Fallout u should have a idea of what i'm talking about.Spells should be something like:telepaty(to manipulate the mind of an enemy and turn him on your side for a turn), telekinesis(to use a brain wave to hit your enemy and also damage something like lets say his perception), and other stuff like this.Now this is a pretty cool system but if u haven't played fallout , you won't understand shit!
This is just a simple description of course.
#20
Every mage has a spell list. When a mage levels or gains a certain item he can either acquire a new spell or increase the level of a current spell. When a spell is used it is removed from the spell list and placed at the bottom of the screen with a charging bar. When the bar is charged, it dissapears from the charge list and is replaced on the spell list, so that it can be used again.
More powerful spells charge more slowly. Less powerful spells have an insignificant charge time and can therefore be used for rapid fire strikes.
I was also thinking about having multiple spell stats that could be increased by the item I described above. Instead of leveling up the entire spell (increasing power, charge time, and whatever else) it would increase only one stat. A player could then use a spell item to increase the speed a spell recharges, but not its power.
I don't know if that would fit in your game world, but feel free to use it if you want.
"A penny for your thoughts."
"I am spending my penny to buy a new thought!"
10/26/2001 (10:17 am)
I had an idea for a magical system that would only work well in a real-time game.Every mage has a spell list. When a mage levels or gains a certain item he can either acquire a new spell or increase the level of a current spell. When a spell is used it is removed from the spell list and placed at the bottom of the screen with a charging bar. When the bar is charged, it dissapears from the charge list and is replaced on the spell list, so that it can be used again.
More powerful spells charge more slowly. Less powerful spells have an insignificant charge time and can therefore be used for rapid fire strikes.
I was also thinking about having multiple spell stats that could be increased by the item I described above. Instead of leveling up the entire spell (increasing power, charge time, and whatever else) it would increase only one stat. A player could then use a spell item to increase the speed a spell recharges, but not its power.
I don't know if that would fit in your game world, but feel free to use it if you want.
"A penny for your thoughts."
"I am spending my penny to buy a new thought!"
Robert Brim
The magic number should be like other attributes and not allowed to be changed. A fighter with a low strength is a poor fighter. A mage with a low magic would be a poor mage.