Mac Workflow
by Seth Willits · in Torque Game Engine · 07/18/2006 (1:55 pm) · 20 replies
So what's the workflow looking like these days? I still haven't gotten around to do anything with Torque in the last four years I've owned it :)
Maurina's book looks nice, though I wonder what the tools are like now before I dive in (which is hopefully soon). Is there finally a reliable all-Mac path for modeling objects, interiors, etc and getting everything in the engine?
Maurina's book looks nice, though I wonder what the tools are like now before I dive in (which is hopefully soon). Is there finally a reliable all-Mac path for modeling objects, interiors, etc and getting everything in the engine?
About the author
http://www.sethwillits.com/
#2
To elaborate, you still need windows to make interiors. Making a complete player model (with all the default animations) is also sort of hit and miss (the LW exporter only recently exported ground transforms to dsq files, for example), but that seems to be the case for everything but the 3DS exporter.
07/18/2006 (2:30 pm)
No, there is not.To elaborate, you still need windows to make interiors. Making a complete player model (with all the default animations) is also sort of hit and miss (the LW exporter only recently exported ground transforms to dsq files, for example), but that seems to be the case for everything but the 3DS exporter.
#3
Constructor looks pretty rockin'. I hope it's not too far off from release. My game development time is far too limited to justify buying Lightwave as well, so I can count that out of my path. Though, I don't plan on doing much modeling myself anyway.
07/18/2006 (3:54 pm)
Radiant worked fine in the past - I've used it before. 1.4 was pretty stable, 1.5 less so, but that was over a year ago when the Quake 3 source was released.Constructor looks pretty rockin'. I hope it's not too far off from release. My game development time is far too limited to justify buying Lightwave as well, so I can count that out of my path. Though, I don't plan on doing much modeling myself anyway.
#5
I use AC3d (ac3d.org) for static modeling - of which Blender (blender.org) can import and export to Torque. Getting that plugin for Torque working was a pain. That takes care of my static objects. I'm sure blender will do animation too but I have not gotten that far.
I use the MacRadiant (redsaurus.net) for Intel. I had to make a simple Quake3 structure and use it as my preferred game but I am able to make a .map and transform it to a .dif. Getting the map2dif working was also a pain. The code referenced a basgram.cc which was named BASgram.cc on the harddrive. Windows developers, what can you do with 'em? :P
Beyond that I'm using a lot of my terminal these days as well as Gimp (gimp.org) for textures and what not.
It's not pretty but I'm getting close to having a fully functional Mac workflow.
07/19/2006 (9:46 am)
Here's my all-Mac workflow... it's sparse but I think it's getting close...I use AC3d (ac3d.org) for static modeling - of which Blender (blender.org) can import and export to Torque. Getting that plugin for Torque working was a pain. That takes care of my static objects. I'm sure blender will do animation too but I have not gotten that far.
I use the MacRadiant (redsaurus.net) for Intel. I had to make a simple Quake3 structure and use it as my preferred game but I am able to make a .map and transform it to a .dif. Getting the map2dif working was also a pain. The code referenced a basgram.cc which was named BASgram.cc on the harddrive. Windows developers, what can you do with 'em? :P
Beyond that I'm using a lot of my terminal these days as well as Gimp (gimp.org) for textures and what not.
It's not pretty but I'm getting close to having a fully functional Mac workflow.
#6
07/19/2006 (10:36 am)
Sounds familiar. I remember everyone saying Blender and map2dif would work, but I remember having a lot of trouble with map2dif, and probably Blender as well. A bit disheartening to hear that hasn't changed much.
#7
07/19/2006 (10:43 am)
Yeah - that's my biggest complaint about Torque. They advertise this great product that works with Mac but once you get beyond the surface you find there is nothing to support your development on the Mac. They really should stop advertising it that way and plainly state that you can port your code to the Mac platform. Full-blown Mac development is extremely limited compared to the Windows side. 
#8
07/19/2006 (11:13 am)
They don't claim a full development suite on the Mac. They claim that TGE is cross-platform in that you can create a game for Windows and Macs using the same codebase.
#9
I think it's the implication of equivalent functionality that bothers Josiah. I'm sure it's not GG's intent to mislead anyone, but making the differences more clear would not hurt and isn't much trouble to add to the marketing materials. Maybe Constructor will fill that gap. I develop on a PC and only port to Mac later so it doesn't affect me as much.
07/19/2006 (11:57 am)
Quote:They don't claim a full development suite on the Mac.Well they also don't say development is crippled/cumbersome on the Mac. :)
I think it's the implication of equivalent functionality that bothers Josiah. I'm sure it's not GG's intent to mislead anyone, but making the differences more clear would not hurt and isn't much trouble to add to the marketing materials. Maybe Constructor will fill that gap. I develop on a PC and only port to Mac later so it doesn't affect me as much.
#10
@Josiah: Where is the plugin anyway? What was wrong with it? How'd you fix it?
07/19/2006 (12:34 pm)
Well misleading or not, it looks like the difference is going to be closed up a lot when Constructor ships. What else there that's lacking? Blender is a great tool (in some senses of the word) and it's apparently at least usable after some shoehorning.@Josiah: Where is the plugin anyway? What was wrong with it? How'd you fix it?
#11
As far as this panacea Constructor is concerned... it seems to me that it will just be another tool that I'm going to have to shell out bucks for that has no definitive release date. To me it's not an option at this point.
Blender... I don't remember exactly what I had to do - oh yes I do! The ExportDTS.py is not the python script you want. You have to do some looking around on the website to find the Dts_Blender python scripts. It only worked for 2.41 (which is a powerpc binary) for me. The instructions are severly lacking for how to setup the scripts - the short of it is - copy the junk to your blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts directory. This means the Dts_*.py and the DTSPython directory and contents as well.
Correction: The python scripts DO work with the most recently released version of blender.
07/19/2006 (1:21 pm)
It's mostly the fact that I've had to jump through a number of crazy hoops to get to the point where I'm able to actually work with most components on the Mac platform. This means I can make textures, make shapes, make interiors and utilize all of them on a single terrain. I'm still a noob at this and have not gone further at this point. On the surface I had assumed I would need a 3d editor, a development tool (Xcode) and a lot of patience and time. I was wrong and it's this kind of information I think would be nice to have for those just getting started. Saying you can make a very limited game with their stock graphics, models, shapes and interiors would be more accurate. As far as this panacea Constructor is concerned... it seems to me that it will just be another tool that I'm going to have to shell out bucks for that has no definitive release date. To me it's not an option at this point.
Blender... I don't remember exactly what I had to do - oh yes I do! The ExportDTS.py is not the python script you want. You have to do some looking around on the website to find the Dts_Blender python scripts. It only worked for 2.41 (which is a powerpc binary) for me. The instructions are severly lacking for how to setup the scripts - the short of it is - copy the junk to your blender.app/Contents/MacOS/.blender/scripts directory. This means the Dts_*.py and the DTSPython directory and contents as well.
Correction: The python scripts DO work with the most recently released version of blender.
#12
07/19/2006 (1:34 pm)
Hmph. Lovely. Well, what I was getting at was I'd be glad to host actual working stuff & instructions as long as I can find them.
#13
07/19/2006 (1:54 pm)
Constructor is currently in Beta 5. I am not sure how long until it reaches the release candidate stage. I can guarantee that they are hard at work on it (and that it runs on a Mac).
#14
07/19/2006 (2:15 pm)
Beta 5? I thought it went into beta 2 really really recently? They move quickly :p
#15
07/19/2006 (2:17 pm)
I think it is Beta 5. But yes, they do move quickly!
#16
Torque on the Mac is sortof my lookout...
So If you have ( constructive ) criticism and feedback, I'm happy to hear it.
But I need specifics, because I don't have a DWIM button.
Constructor rocks. It's run on Mac basically since day 1. That's because we built Constructor with Torque.
Constructor is, at this time, in Beta 5. Every alpha & beta ( except beta 3, I was busy ) has been pushed to the testers on both Mac & PC . Many artists I've talked to like Constructor a lot. Programmers like it too. We demoed it at GDC on Intel iMacs... and we got a really positive response. Folks dig it.
The Maya exporter has recently been updated to the latest version. If you use Maya, the exporter should work just as well on Mac as PC.
As far as being able to make only limited games... Well, the limit really is your own skill & imagination. If you're lost and stuck & don't know where to look, as far as Torque development goes, Ed Maurina's book on Torque is very high quality. Lots of good info, lots of tutorials.
We know our GUIs and tools need work, and we're addressing that. Check out Torque Game Builder for an example of what I mean. I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm saying it's very very good.
Yeah, so.. did not mean to write a novel or a PR piece... I just want y'all to know that we do hear the feedback, and we're always working on new cool stuff. So if you have suggestions or requests, make em. Just be reasonable, and remember that game dev is work. It's a lot of work, but it's fun work. It is, therefore, lots of fun.
Share and Enjoy,
/Paul
07/24/2006 (4:06 pm)
Howdy all.Torque on the Mac is sortof my lookout...
So If you have ( constructive ) criticism and feedback, I'm happy to hear it.
But I need specifics, because I don't have a DWIM button.
Constructor rocks. It's run on Mac basically since day 1. That's because we built Constructor with Torque.
Constructor is, at this time, in Beta 5. Every alpha & beta ( except beta 3, I was busy ) has been pushed to the testers on both Mac & PC . Many artists I've talked to like Constructor a lot. Programmers like it too. We demoed it at GDC on Intel iMacs... and we got a really positive response. Folks dig it.
The Maya exporter has recently been updated to the latest version. If you use Maya, the exporter should work just as well on Mac as PC.
As far as being able to make only limited games... Well, the limit really is your own skill & imagination. If you're lost and stuck & don't know where to look, as far as Torque development goes, Ed Maurina's book on Torque is very high quality. Lots of good info, lots of tutorials.
We know our GUIs and tools need work, and we're addressing that. Check out Torque Game Builder for an example of what I mean. I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm saying it's very very good.
Yeah, so.. did not mean to write a novel or a PR piece... I just want y'all to know that we do hear the feedback, and we're always working on new cool stuff. So if you have suggestions or requests, make em. Just be reasonable, and remember that game dev is work. It's a lot of work, but it's fun work. It is, therefore, lots of fun.
Share and Enjoy,
/Paul
#17
I bought Ed's book and downloaded the latest Blender plugin (which I was happy to see has the best support of any modeling exporter for dts). I'm currently coming up with a game idea, hoping Constructor will come out by the time I can think it all through. ;) Otherwise, I did get Windows working in Parallels and natively with Boot Camp on an Intel mini we have, so I can pop into Windows to do dif work. (Haven't yet figured out which tool there is best, though.)
Hopefully, thanks to the content packs and my supreme madd skillz I'll be able to whip up the next big MMORPG in the next week or so. ::rolleyes::
Oh and by the way, for all of you Mac-heads, you need to drop by http://www.idevgames.com/ and pimp Torque. It's a pretty large community of Mac game developers and nobody uses Torque (except me -- sorta). So not only does my life depend on the game I make (stupid loan sharks) but the face of Torque in the eyes of these Unity and home-grown engine-sportin' guys is at stake. :)
07/24/2006 (4:14 pm)
Thanks Paul.I bought Ed's book and downloaded the latest Blender plugin (which I was happy to see has the best support of any modeling exporter for dts). I'm currently coming up with a game idea, hoping Constructor will come out by the time I can think it all through. ;) Otherwise, I did get Windows working in Parallels and natively with Boot Camp on an Intel mini we have, so I can pop into Windows to do dif work. (Haven't yet figured out which tool there is best, though.)
Hopefully, thanks to the content packs and my supreme madd skillz I'll be able to whip up the next big MMORPG in the next week or so. ::rolleyes::
Oh and by the way, for all of you Mac-heads, you need to drop by http://www.idevgames.com/ and pimp Torque. It's a pretty large community of Mac game developers and nobody uses Torque (except me -- sorta). So not only does my life depend on the game I make (stupid loan sharks) but the face of Torque in the eyes of these Unity and home-grown engine-sportin' guys is at stake. :)
#18
My first grief is here:
http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/DIF/FeatureChart
Show me one tool that is recommended by your crew for Mac. There isn't one. I realize constructor will be everything to everyone... when it's released and who knows at what cost.
My second grief is the lack of any substantial (or useful) setup documentation for Mac owners. Most of my time has been spent in getting the tools to play nice and writing scripts that copy my junk from one spot to another (when I want my latest texture in my interior editor, or need to get that interior over to Torque, for example).
My wifey got the book for me for my birthday. It's really quite awesome but it does not cover any specific Mac details. It has given me quite a jumpstart on the actual game design and development but it hasn't done anything to improve my development environment.
As it stands I'm using Blender (huge learning curve) for statics and animation (not to the animation yet). I'm using MacRadiant 1.4 (it's painfully limited and difficult to use in the X environment) for interior instances. I'm using Gimp for my textures and art with little complaints.
How can you all make this better for us Mac people? That's a question I don't really have an answer to yet. I would think some real documentation around how to use the tool Mac users are limited to would be a great start. Maybe some better documentation about how to get it to all play nicely together. An excercise you may want to attempt is to build a mission with custom textures, a custom interior, a number of statics and some sounds (and maybe a music track) all from scratch on the Mac. I would be interested to hear what tools you use, how you got them to work and what you feel the limitations were and how you hope to overcome them.
Just as a final gripe... I noticed the TSE is only available for Winders. Is this a hint at the direction Torque is headed or are we just going to be "back-burnered?"
08/13/2006 (8:53 am)
Hello Paul, sorry for the late feedback... I havn't had much time to play recently.My first grief is here:
http://tdn.garagegames.com/wiki/DIF/FeatureChart
Show me one tool that is recommended by your crew for Mac. There isn't one. I realize constructor will be everything to everyone... when it's released and who knows at what cost.
My second grief is the lack of any substantial (or useful) setup documentation for Mac owners. Most of my time has been spent in getting the tools to play nice and writing scripts that copy my junk from one spot to another (when I want my latest texture in my interior editor, or need to get that interior over to Torque, for example).
My wifey got the book for me for my birthday. It's really quite awesome but it does not cover any specific Mac details. It has given me quite a jumpstart on the actual game design and development but it hasn't done anything to improve my development environment.
As it stands I'm using Blender (huge learning curve) for statics and animation (not to the animation yet). I'm using MacRadiant 1.4 (it's painfully limited and difficult to use in the X environment) for interior instances. I'm using Gimp for my textures and art with little complaints.
How can you all make this better for us Mac people? That's a question I don't really have an answer to yet. I would think some real documentation around how to use the tool Mac users are limited to would be a great start. Maybe some better documentation about how to get it to all play nicely together. An excercise you may want to attempt is to build a mission with custom textures, a custom interior, a number of statics and some sounds (and maybe a music track) all from scratch on the Mac. I would be interested to hear what tools you use, how you got them to work and what you feel the limitations were and how you hope to overcome them.
Just as a final gripe... I noticed the TSE is only available for Winders. Is this a hint at the direction Torque is headed or are we just going to be "back-burnered?"
#19
08/13/2006 (4:20 pm)
TSE only has a DirectX renderer at the moment. The OpenGL renderer is coming after 1.0 ships.
#20
08/14/2006 (8:10 pm)
That's too bad about TSE... I probably won't bother with it for my current project and won't reap the benefits of being an "early adopter" either... 
Associate David Montgomery-Blake
David MontgomeryBlake