Danger of not having a degree

#1 Just thought I would mention that John Carmack doesn't have a degree...

Though he is not generally considered the norm. :-)

#2 BTW, I know how you feel about college. After going into Jr College for just one year I was studying Fourier Analysis (I was an Electrical Engineering major) and came up with an idea for what could best be described in laymen terms as a "corrective lense" for electrical signals. I thought it was a great idea and started working on an actual circuit design only to find out that seven years prior somebody already patented the method and it is currently in use in ASDL technology...

My point is that even though I came up with the technique seven years too late to become rich off it, I still came up with the method based on only one year of Jr College. Why should I need a peice of paper from some College saying that I can do this stuff if I already can?

*The method uses a calibration pulse that is sent from one end of the wire to the other. It's then broken up into it's harmonic components and indivudual amounts of amplification (or attenuation as needed) are determined for each harmonics so that when put back together they combine into the original pulse (minus any distortion from the transmission). There's more to it than this, but that's the basic idea...

#3 I don't have a degree. It matters to some companies and not so much to others. Usually the jobs that are the easiest, the most mind-numbingly boring are the jobs that for some reason require a degree. I guess it's because the management there can't be bothered with doing a skill test. In most companies where they need a skilled worker, they look at experience and skills.

So, entry level jobs are harder to get without a degree. If you're thinking of dropping out, don't go until you can get a job that will give you experience for a couple of years. Then when you are ready to move on you have the experience, and can demonstrate the skills you know you have.

Even after obtaining a job, some places won't promote you as fast, won't give you raises as often or for as much as others. Older companies are more likely to think this way. They get set in their ways, and have legacy policies and legacy managers that apply things to programmers that were invented for engineers. Newer, forward looking companies are more likely to not care about college, as the founders may or may not have finished college themselves.

I got my current job by getting a summer internship. They were happy with my work and I was happy working so I just never bothered to go back to school(this wasn't the only reason, but it did offer a good way out).

In all, I think getting a job comes down more to who you are, and not some piece of paper. The companies who look down a checklist and then draw the worthy applicant out of a hat, probably won't hire you. But the companies who look for a person to fill a job, will look past the lack of a degree and try and see if you are the person they are looking for.

Joel.

#4 This is a long-standing argument and will never be answered well enough for everyone's liking. There is something to be said for completing a college degree - it's a sign that you can start something and stick with it until completion. In addition, in theory, the coursework will give you a broader level of knowledge in your field. For instance, if you didn't complete your comp sci degree, you might not be exposed to some of the more interesting/useful algorithms/data structures and analysis of these. Nothing prevents you from learning this stuff on your own, though. It really depends on your character and your needs/desires in your industry.

And stuff...

Dave

#5 I have a BS in Computer Engineering and it was truly a waste of 4.5 years of my life. I came away with only a handful of useful skills that I could have learned in a single semester (or less). Not only that, I am underqualified to get a job in Computer Engineering (our program is incredibly outdated and ran almost entirely by Electrical Engineers). The only skills I have to get me a job are the ones I taught myself or I learned doing Computer Support as a Co-op student. If you are serious about going into game development, I wouldn't worry too much about getting a degree. The game dev industry is probably the place where a degree counts for the least. It is all about your skills.

However, one major benefit of being in school is that it gives you time to work on building up your skills which can be a lot harder to do in a 8 to 5 job (trust me I know). If I had it to do over again I would probably go for an easier degree (more time) and spend most of my time developing my game dev skills.

#6 I want to add something though:

It can be hard teaching yourself sometimes b/c you might not know what you need to learn. You might think you know all there is to know about a subject b/c you have learned everything you knew to learn, when someone more experienced (a teacher) could point out whole realms of things you didn't even know existed.

#7 For the most part I just use the free time. I've already finished the first 1.5 years of computer science in the first 2 quarters I was here. In the group I work with in Software Engineering I see 4th and 5th year students that don't know how to write algorithms, don't understand concepts but damn they can do UML diagrams.

#8 I find that older people tend to say "People with the degree will get the job before you despite any skills you have". It may be true, but having it said constantly sorta wears thin, and makes me want to disbelieve it...

I don't know about most courses, but I'm doing a Bachelor's degree in Info Tech here. The course runs for three years, takes up three days out of every week (Half lectures, half labs), and allows us 24/7 access to the computers. The computer I sit at now is the one I'll use for the entire degree and I have admin rights to it (and higher rights to the network than the tutors).

[url] http://www.sit.ac.nz[/url] If you're interested, sounds like they're looking for another 100 students next year...

Enough with the advertisement ;)

I'd have to say that, if you don't have decent access to computers, you should search for a course that does. If you have decent access to computers, or you can't leave and go straight into a job, stay with it as long as you can. Also - the extra stuff (boring as hell) they teach can help give a wider view, and allows you to seem more intelligent than your average "smile and nod" guy.

#9 Sometimes games developers sign up people who've spent time with them on work experience (worked for me anyway ;).

#10 College isn't just about rote learning of different subjects. What I got out of it is how to learn, how to do work within a set time frame, how to document your thought process, and how to solve problems. With these tools I have manage to avoid (for the most part) hacking solutions out. My background isn't even programming but electrical engineering, but because of my college experience I have been able to learn and adapt and am now doing visual simulations (and yes games too!).

A degree also shows a potential employer that you are a serious individual who is able to adapt to different circumstances and to make a commitment and follow up on that commitment.

Another thing to keep in mind is that many employers determine your salary dependant upon your educational background. A person with a M.S. degree will (most times, and there are extreme cases) make more than a person with a B.S. degree even if both of those individuals have the same ammount of professional experience.

Having a degree also gives you more flexibility in your choices of career too.

And lastly: theres nuthin rong with a gud edumacation.

#11 A college degree is just another certification, and is regarded as such by the majority of the Fortune 500s. It gets a slightly larger relocation package, hiring bonus, and/or salary. Plus it allows one to joke about weed without repercussions. :)

#12 What scott said is bang on...

My dad always told me, years ago, that college is not about learning things, it's learning HOW to learn things.

I think he's right. The best thing you can take away from college is how to solve problems and how to find answers for questions. Nobody ever expects you to know everything ... they expect you to be able to find out anything (within reason of course)

That being said, I dropped out of college after two years, went into the 'real world' and have been pulling in salaries well into 6 figures for the last couple years (I'm ten years into my professional career)

your milage will, of course, vary ... I happen to be one of those lucky people who was born with a drive to learn and teach myself, as well as good problem solving/decision making skills.

#13 Many of the best programmers at Dynamix did not have degrees. It usually happened because we hired them as interns and they started producing so much that completing school seemed a waste. However, their foot was already in the door.

For programmers that we didn't know, the degree added some credibility, but it's importance was way behind practical experience. A resume with nothing but a degree was round filed. If you don't care enough about what you are doing to have a lot of outside projects going, then don't even try to be a game programmer.

If you are here at GarageGames, posting on this site, making mods, using the V12 to create your dream game, etc. then you are way ahead of the game.

Jeff Tunnell GG

#14 Well, I was quite old when I took my degree, I'd been programming games for myself for many many years before that.

What a degree does, it give you TIME, thats an important thing to have, and you should use it wisely to create a portfolio of work thats relevant to games.

Hell, even doing a games programming degree isnt a guarantee. Only hard work is.

But I dont think dropping out and hoping is a good plan either.

Stick with it, even if its not relevant, make it relevant to you by using the time you have to do things that interest you and are relevant to your future job.

In the end, my degree didnt do much, but it might help with my visa access into the US.

Phil.

#15 First I'll just write a disclaimer - I've worked as a researcher/tutor at Universties for the last ten years until I quit to go into the games industry, so I'm biased about education!

If you go to college, you'll get around three years spent with people your age in an environment with great freedom. With initiative, you can pick up skills outside your course which will come in handy in the future - such as learning what you want out of life.

If you finish college, you'll have shown you can complete something.

If you don't go... you'll possibly replace those years with doing the same 9-5 pattern of work which will last the next 45 years of your life.

You'll also find that there are other people at college who also want to make games - programmers and artists. Choosing the right place is important though.

Good luck whatever - if you really want to do something then do it.

Doug. EnkiSoftware Limited

#16 if you already start the university study, not matter what, for the god sake and for your own good, finish it.

If you think the course/subject are not interesting, choose something else, don't just waste your time and complaining.

#17 Oh yeah, and make sure you take lots of technical and software engineering classes but no english. Who needs it anyway (snicker snicker)

#18 I like jeremy's opinion who said "I happen to be one of those lucky people who was born with a drive to learn and teach myself"
Teaching yourself is a skill you must learn outside of college, I taught myself everything I know about computers and am suceeding more than I could have dreamt.
I think certain people don't need a degree while others do.
A degree says you can do this, but if you can teach yourself, you can do things and have something else that says you can do it, like experience and talent, and I think that saying you taught yourself and got this far is better than any degree.
Many people who choose not to get one have other plans and options, and maybe that life of college isn't right for them.
Or maybe the people who don't get degrees work in a different way, getting different types of jobs completely.
My entire family is one that was almost born to suceed not to the standards.
My mother came from a farm and lost her parents at a young age, they didn't even have electricity, and in two decades she had a terrific career.
My mother now owns her own company, just like my father, and my grandfather, and my grandmother I think is retiring from hers.
Maybe we have the gene to run things yourself and not let the society push you around.
Like my father I specialized in electronics before even knowing much about computers.
I guess my point is that it is for some people, and for others you may not even need almost any physical proof of education.
My mother went to college, dropped out after two years I think, pregnant with my brother, and look where it got her...
Her own business.
I think there is a point in getting your degree, and then there is a point in not.
For me, I'll say this.. I am a fast learner, so, why go to college when you can start your own business and be making money way before you'd graduate?
I guess everyone is special in their own way to where they end up doing what is right for them and their job, some people wouldn't dream of starting their own business, others jump at it.
Some will get hired away faster than they had the chance at an education, others will want the stability and steady pay with a degree...

#19 I spent a decade in institutes of higher learning.

Degreed geologist, multiple academic papers to my credit, failed PhD attempt (disliked academic politics and 12 thousand dollar a year stipends) :)

It taught me to solve problems in a way I could not have easily earned on my own. It gave me an oppurtunity to build social skills, problem solving skills, and a break from the 9-5 ;) Time well spent, all things considered. Now I work in software.

It doesn't matter what you do, just find something interesting. Go stufy gorillas in the lowlands of Africa, rocks in the Badlands of North America, lasers in the labs at MIT. Be an engineer, a scientist, a religios studies major, an actor.

Then come make games. Then self teach C++ ;)

You truly are more "rounded" despite yourself when you are done.

There's my public service announcement for the day ;)

#20 Having just completed a degree, I too am a bit biased.

I fully understand your frustration. Many people who I watched work diligently and 'earn' their degree know sweet FA about programming. Other people have made some very good points:

- if you've got your foot in the door a degree isn't important, if not...
- doing a degree gives you time
- some people need a degree more than others (I don't necessarily agree with the "It taught me how to learn..." arguments)
- you spend a lot of time at uni learning stuff you already know or don't need to know (I found that I got better grades in hard subjects, just didn't bother with subjects like this)

So here's my advice, if you don't enjoy going to uni (I did) don't go, BUT if its because you already know the subject matter then change course to something that you don't know much about but interests you (eg Physics). It doesn't really matter what your degree is, just that you have one from an employers POV. I ended up with a CS major but in actual fact most of my degree was maths and physics. I avoided most of the core CS units as much as possible and did mostly electives (being a bit pushy gets people to approve this :) ) although even those were often a bit of a let down.

One more thing, not starting uni is one thing, spending the rest of your life explaining why you dropped out is another (I did that about 10 years ago when I felt the same as you do). Employers don't like it and most people don't understand your reasoning.

Anyway, 4 years as a vocational trainer (Its hard to get a foot in the door where I live - well not so much know, but then it was) and a desire to finish something that I started convinced me to go back to uni, but like I said I enjoyed it. Now its even harder to explain why I started, dropped out and then went back... :)

Well, sorry about the long post but I feel better :)