Second Underscore Sample
by Nick Palmer · in General Discussion · 04/21/2002 (7:50 pm) · 31 replies
Here is another attempt at an underscore - Underscore 2. I took Phil Carlisle's suggestion to make a more sustained melody rather than use a fragmented one as a possible underscore to an intro. I made this loopable, but it doesn't start as cleanly as I'd like because of that. Therein lies the basic problem in making clean jumps from one track to another dynamically (during the game): basically, the sounds of the jump point must be identical to those of the new track (or jump location if the same track). This would be easier to accomplish if multiple tracks were playing (two or three). With a single track, the idea of musical fragments would work better because there are many quieter segments in the track that are easier to jump from.
Underscore 3 will be such a track: fragmented melody with a jump possible every couple of measures. I think that I'll include some sort of "splice tape" with some percussion to make the transition even smoother. The problem will be going from loud and intense to softer and less intense. Hmmmm...
Nick
Underscore 3 will be such a track: fragmented melody with a jump possible every couple of measures. I think that I'll include some sort of "splice tape" with some percussion to make the transition even smoother. The problem will be going from loud and intense to softer and less intense. Hmmmm...
Nick
About the author
#2
I want a Giga, though. There's $1700 WHOOSH!
I'm glad you like the track. I need one of these audio programmers like Kurt to see how it fits into games.
Nick
04/22/2002 (4:22 am)
Rolands are around $1000, but you have to get additional modules for whatever extra sounds you need. The basic orchestral sounds aren't great, but their orchestral expansion card is much better (most of what you hear in my tracks comes from that module). I want a Giga, though. There's $1700 WHOOSH!
I'm glad you like the track. I need one of these audio programmers like Kurt to see how it fits into games.
Nick
#3
I'm not sure how taxing playing multiple compressed audio tracks would be. The faster machines would have no problems, but I'm not sure how much decoding we can do on lower end machines before we start to impact the framerate. I think 2 or 3 tracks should be feasible though. I'll have to test it out.
04/22/2002 (10:46 am)
Hey, Nick. Maybe you and I could try and come up with some kind of dynamic music format for Torque. I've been wanting to add something like that and the input from someone with experience writing music for games would help.I'm not sure how taxing playing multiple compressed audio tracks would be. The faster machines would have no problems, but I'm not sure how much decoding we can do on lower end machines before we start to impact the framerate. I think 2 or 3 tracks should be feasible though. I'll have to test it out.
#4
Regarding the notion of running simulataneous tracks, iIt would probably be reasonable to assume two tracks are all that is needed. One less intense, one more for attacking/fighting/running away/etc...
I guess what I have in mind is that the game soundtrack play like a movie soundtrack that stimulates particular emotions at appropriate times. Three or more moods (hence, tracks) probably isn't very practical both in terms of the game and in terms of the demands on the system.
Nick
04/22/2002 (10:57 am)
@Kurtis: it would be interesting to work on dynamic tracks-- let's keep talking about it because I can use any insights with other game developers. Regarding the notion of running simulataneous tracks, iIt would probably be reasonable to assume two tracks are all that is needed. One less intense, one more for attacking/fighting/running away/etc...
I guess what I have in mind is that the game soundtrack play like a movie soundtrack that stimulates particular emotions at appropriate times. Three or more moods (hence, tracks) probably isn't very practical both in terms of the game and in terms of the demands on the system.
Nick
#5
We shipped a title with it, but it was flaky at best.
Personally, I dont find the sort of looped tracks at all good, because they tend to have less dynamic range (as you mentioned, they have to be able to loop at set intervals, so they tend not to stray too far dynamically within those intervals.
I much prefer a good quality track that has a nice loop within itself but otherwise has some high and low.
I'm still wondering where I'm going to find a orchestral voice style track from. Something along the lines of Jerry Goldsmith.
Phil.
04/22/2002 (10:59 am)
Word of advice. Stear as far clear of DirectMusic as you possibly can.We shipped a title with it, but it was flaky at best.
Personally, I dont find the sort of looped tracks at all good, because they tend to have less dynamic range (as you mentioned, they have to be able to loop at set intervals, so they tend not to stray too far dynamically within those intervals.
I much prefer a good quality track that has a nice loop within itself but otherwise has some high and low.
I'm still wondering where I'm going to find a orchestral voice style track from. Something along the lines of Jerry Goldsmith.
Phil.
#6
I did a game presentation movie for a game developer -
www.nicholaspalmer.com/iwars/iwars.mov (1+ mb - not very good quality) or
www.nicholaspalmer.com/iwars/iwars.wmv (10mb- much better).
This has some of the kind of sound you want, but no developed theme.
Also, this link is to a track with a little more theme:
http://www.nicholaspalmer.com/iwars/iwars_tutorial.mp3
I haven't had the need to do a whole space-opera theme, yet, but I'll make that my next little project. Then we'll see if you like it, heh. What sort of mood did you have in mind? You mentioned military, but Realm Wars doesn't bring snare drums to my mind-- we are talking about very different sorts of armies, aren't we? I'm thinking more along the lines of Howard Shore's LOTR Orc music. There isn't a melody in that part of the score, though, but the mood seems right to me-- lots of violent drums, hacking strings, and choir (can't do choir, though--sorry).
How long of a track do you want?
Nick
04/22/2002 (11:19 am)
Phil, I did a game presentation movie for a game developer -
www.nicholaspalmer.com/iwars/iwars.mov (1+ mb - not very good quality) or
www.nicholaspalmer.com/iwars/iwars.wmv (10mb- much better).
This has some of the kind of sound you want, but no developed theme.
Also, this link is to a track with a little more theme:
http://www.nicholaspalmer.com/iwars/iwars_tutorial.mp3
I haven't had the need to do a whole space-opera theme, yet, but I'll make that my next little project. Then we'll see if you like it, heh. What sort of mood did you have in mind? You mentioned military, but Realm Wars doesn't bring snare drums to my mind-- we are talking about very different sorts of armies, aren't we? I'm thinking more along the lines of Howard Shore's LOTR Orc music. There isn't a melody in that part of the score, though, but the mood seems right to me-- lots of violent drums, hacking strings, and choir (can't do choir, though--sorry).
How long of a track do you want?
Nick
#7
I own a Roland XP-80 workstation myself and I love Roland's techno sounds.. but orchestral... well... i think they leave a LOT to be desired.
One word...
GIGASTUDIO
If you have the money, it's worth forking over the cash. For any live instrument it kicks ass. Although you really need to have SCSI drives installed on your PC in order to use GStudio the way it was meant to be used.
I'll write a sample of some gigstudio stuff tonight and post it here.
Roland's expansion modules are pretty good if VERY overpriced. They still charge the same they did 5 years ago. Which to me is a little cheap.
I like the idea you posted.
About the MP3 and multiple tracks running... It would probably take way too many CPU cycles away from the game, especially since most people turn off the music after hearing it a few times.
Why not simply having a Cross-Fade "plugin" for the mp3 player in Torque? you wouldn't necessarily need 2 tracks playing simultaneously to change mood. But you COULD make a series of MP3s to be interchangeable with eachother. Make each track 30sec or less and create a player that changes randomly or according to how many players are on screen, how many people are attacking you, etc... etc...
A game to check out that did this EXCEEDINLY well is Bungie's Halo (for Xbox).
The audio director over at Bungie is Marty O'Donnell. Sorry I don't have his contact info, but if someone contacted him about interactive audio he would have a lot of good things to say about it since he managed to make a superb soundtrack for Halo and they simply had loopable tracks that would play and loop with eachother. But the events and circumstances that would trigger various loops were VERY well planned and executed flawlessly. It was the execution that helped to make the audio such a seemless experience.
Plus, they didn't have the music playing at all times. If nothing was going on it woudl fade out after a while.
Sometimes it's more important to create ambience with SFX rather than music.
Just my 2 cents ;)
04/22/2002 (6:27 pm)
Hi Nick, I own a Roland XP-80 workstation myself and I love Roland's techno sounds.. but orchestral... well... i think they leave a LOT to be desired.
One word...
GIGASTUDIO
If you have the money, it's worth forking over the cash. For any live instrument it kicks ass. Although you really need to have SCSI drives installed on your PC in order to use GStudio the way it was meant to be used.
I'll write a sample of some gigstudio stuff tonight and post it here.
Roland's expansion modules are pretty good if VERY overpriced. They still charge the same they did 5 years ago. Which to me is a little cheap.
I like the idea you posted.
About the MP3 and multiple tracks running... It would probably take way too many CPU cycles away from the game, especially since most people turn off the music after hearing it a few times.
Why not simply having a Cross-Fade "plugin" for the mp3 player in Torque? you wouldn't necessarily need 2 tracks playing simultaneously to change mood. But you COULD make a series of MP3s to be interchangeable with eachother. Make each track 30sec or less and create a player that changes randomly or according to how many players are on screen, how many people are attacking you, etc... etc...
A game to check out that did this EXCEEDINLY well is Bungie's Halo (for Xbox).
The audio director over at Bungie is Marty O'Donnell. Sorry I don't have his contact info, but if someone contacted him about interactive audio he would have a lot of good things to say about it since he managed to make a superb soundtrack for Halo and they simply had loopable tracks that would play and loop with eachother. But the events and circumstances that would trigger various loops were VERY well planned and executed flawlessly. It was the execution that helped to make the audio such a seemless experience.
Plus, they didn't have the music playing at all times. If nothing was going on it woudl fade out after a while.
Sometimes it's more important to create ambience with SFX rather than music.
Just my 2 cents ;)
#8
Re Halo - this has been mentioned a couple of times, so I guess I'd better check it out, somehow. I don't have X Box, but maybe it is loaded up at a Best Buy or somewhere.
Nick
04/22/2002 (7:27 pm)
I agree completely regarding GigaStudio-- I've been drooling over it since I stumbled across it a few weeks ago. Save, save, save.Re Halo - this has been mentioned a couple of times, so I guess I'd better check it out, somehow. I don't have X Box, but maybe it is loaded up at a Best Buy or somewhere.
Nick
#9
I could see a sort of limited dynamic format occasionally working... maybe in some maps you'd have a 'defend the structure' type mission, and it would be cool to establish mood with a tense but low key piece until the action starts. In general though the gameplay is pretty hectic. Depending on what triggers the change in music, you might have the 'crazy action' piece and the 'thank god nobody is shooting at me' piece swapping in and out every few seconds. That would hardly seem like the key to a pleasant and satisfying audio experience.
From a composer's standpoint, longer pieces allow you to develop mood and theme more than short choppy segments do. Personally I'd rather have memorable themes than dynamic music.
I took a look at DirectMusic a while back, as a potential client was thinking of using it and I wanted to see what it was all about. First off the interface for it was far more programmer-friendly than composer-friendly, which was strike one in my book since my programming skills havent evolved past the BASIC that I learned back on my Commodore 64.
The principle behind DirectMusic is cool though, at least as far as I understood it, and would be a great way to do interactive music except for a couple points I'll note in a second. With DM (as far as I could tell), you would write a basic song structure and a bunch of little segmented motifs that you could mix in and out MIDI style (that is, you wouldn't be mixing audio files in and out of the music, you'd mix MIDI events in and out, which is much smoother and makes transitions smooth as ... something really smooth).
The motifs you mix in and out would reflect the action, perhaps layering on one another and becoming more intense as things get frantic (and conversely thinning out as it slows down). Since you're still in MIDI, and not audio, you could also alter the tempo without messing things up.
Of course the big limit to DirectMusic is the soundset you use. Microsoft's DirectMusic thing uses DLS sets, which are basically glorified MIDI instruments. The composer at least has control of what the sounds are (unlike with regular MIDI which of course relies on the end user's soundcard). I had a heck of a time even finding anyone that sold DLS sound sets, but Sonic Implants did and they make good stuff.
The problem is that the memory limitations inherent with distributing the whole sound set along with the game make it so that your quality will always be compromised. Theres no way on earth that any DLS soundset can compete with the 20GB or so of samples I have on my harddrive for use with Gigastudio. Unless games start shipping on DVD and people don't mind 3 hour long installations that take up most of their hard drive in the name of dynamic music, anyhow :) Of course, five years from now you'll probably get your game on a datacrystal that instantly downloads its 10GB of data onto your 900GB harddrive. Until then though, DLS/Directmusic is not going to sound anywhere near as good as something composed with top level sound libraries.
Then theres the issue of the intricate control over MIDI events that one can achieve with a dedicated sequencer like Sonar or Cubase or Logic or whatever. Stuff like being able to tweak note velocity, controller changes, exact timing of events, etc etc. Directmusic doesn't do this (at least not that I could tell). They realy need to make that thing more musician friendly if they intend for anyone to actually use it. Or maybe Im dumber than a sack of potatoes and totally missed the button that initiates the easy-to-use interface section.
I could yammer on and on (hmm.. I -did- yammer on and on) , but the point is that I think a DirectMusic-like system is the best way to do dynamic music, but the limits on such a system that are present with today's technology make it undesireable to use. Maybe you could get away with it if you were doing a techno-based soundtrack, but for anything emulating acoustic instruments (like an orchestra) it will basically sound little better than the low end soundblaster that comes in most storebought computers.
Plus on top of all that, the Ogg Vorbis compressor that GG is using for delivery of RW's music really does a heck of a good job of smooshing down music without losing quality. It uses a variable bitrate algorhythm to maximize the quality of the music while compressing it down to a very managable size. After messing around with it a bit the other night, I was getting good sound quality with very little distortion all the way down to the level of 90-110 kbps. The point of me mentioning this? With filesizes that low even a 4 min long track is going to be around 3.5 - 4MB, so long music isn't going to be too hard to deliver to the players.
Of course, this is all just my opinion, and I've rambled enough. I should go compose something :)
04/22/2002 (8:36 pm)
Alot of people seem to like the idea of interactive / dynamic music... I think I prefer longer and more complex non-dynamic pieces to a bunch of smaller ones that fade in and out situationally. Especially in RW, where pretty much every moment you're playing is a struggle to avoid getting shot to pieces while you try to find a weapon spawn or someone else to shoot at :) I could see a sort of limited dynamic format occasionally working... maybe in some maps you'd have a 'defend the structure' type mission, and it would be cool to establish mood with a tense but low key piece until the action starts. In general though the gameplay is pretty hectic. Depending on what triggers the change in music, you might have the 'crazy action' piece and the 'thank god nobody is shooting at me' piece swapping in and out every few seconds. That would hardly seem like the key to a pleasant and satisfying audio experience.
From a composer's standpoint, longer pieces allow you to develop mood and theme more than short choppy segments do. Personally I'd rather have memorable themes than dynamic music.
I took a look at DirectMusic a while back, as a potential client was thinking of using it and I wanted to see what it was all about. First off the interface for it was far more programmer-friendly than composer-friendly, which was strike one in my book since my programming skills havent evolved past the BASIC that I learned back on my Commodore 64.
The principle behind DirectMusic is cool though, at least as far as I understood it, and would be a great way to do interactive music except for a couple points I'll note in a second. With DM (as far as I could tell), you would write a basic song structure and a bunch of little segmented motifs that you could mix in and out MIDI style (that is, you wouldn't be mixing audio files in and out of the music, you'd mix MIDI events in and out, which is much smoother and makes transitions smooth as ... something really smooth).
The motifs you mix in and out would reflect the action, perhaps layering on one another and becoming more intense as things get frantic (and conversely thinning out as it slows down). Since you're still in MIDI, and not audio, you could also alter the tempo without messing things up.
Of course the big limit to DirectMusic is the soundset you use. Microsoft's DirectMusic thing uses DLS sets, which are basically glorified MIDI instruments. The composer at least has control of what the sounds are (unlike with regular MIDI which of course relies on the end user's soundcard). I had a heck of a time even finding anyone that sold DLS sound sets, but Sonic Implants did and they make good stuff.
The problem is that the memory limitations inherent with distributing the whole sound set along with the game make it so that your quality will always be compromised. Theres no way on earth that any DLS soundset can compete with the 20GB or so of samples I have on my harddrive for use with Gigastudio. Unless games start shipping on DVD and people don't mind 3 hour long installations that take up most of their hard drive in the name of dynamic music, anyhow :) Of course, five years from now you'll probably get your game on a datacrystal that instantly downloads its 10GB of data onto your 900GB harddrive. Until then though, DLS/Directmusic is not going to sound anywhere near as good as something composed with top level sound libraries.
Then theres the issue of the intricate control over MIDI events that one can achieve with a dedicated sequencer like Sonar or Cubase or Logic or whatever. Stuff like being able to tweak note velocity, controller changes, exact timing of events, etc etc. Directmusic doesn't do this (at least not that I could tell). They realy need to make that thing more musician friendly if they intend for anyone to actually use it. Or maybe Im dumber than a sack of potatoes and totally missed the button that initiates the easy-to-use interface section.
I could yammer on and on (hmm.. I -did- yammer on and on) , but the point is that I think a DirectMusic-like system is the best way to do dynamic music, but the limits on such a system that are present with today's technology make it undesireable to use. Maybe you could get away with it if you were doing a techno-based soundtrack, but for anything emulating acoustic instruments (like an orchestra) it will basically sound little better than the low end soundblaster that comes in most storebought computers.
Plus on top of all that, the Ogg Vorbis compressor that GG is using for delivery of RW's music really does a heck of a good job of smooshing down music without losing quality. It uses a variable bitrate algorhythm to maximize the quality of the music while compressing it down to a very managable size. After messing around with it a bit the other night, I was getting good sound quality with very little distortion all the way down to the level of 90-110 kbps. The point of me mentioning this? With filesizes that low even a 4 min long track is going to be around 3.5 - 4MB, so long music isn't going to be too hard to deliver to the players.
Of course, this is all just my opinion, and I've rambled enough. I should go compose something :)
#10
Here's that demo: GigDemo.mp3
I put it together in an hour or so tonight and then mixed it down. It's not as complete as I would make it as a "final version" song but I thought that I'd put something together that would show off Gigastudio a little bit.
Every instrument is a Gigastudio instrument.
About Interactive Music:
If you listen to Halo they did a very good job with longer themes that would loop into eachother. The way they were broken down roughly was;
Tense 1
Tense 2
Tense 3
More Tense 1
More Tense 2
etc...
The music fit very well together and the loops typically lasted about 1:00 - 1:30. But there would be specific triggers for the musical events. You wouldn't hear the "Oh Shit!" theme unless you were fighting against a lot of enemies for about 2 minutes and then the music would pick up even MORE than where it was with the "oh shit" loop.
It really worked well and you're only limited by the programmers time to create the scripts and your time to produce the themes. In the end you could have an EXTENSIVE set of longer loops that are very specific for each level.
They would also have themes that were tagges as "rare" and wouldn't be played as often as the "main" ones.
ie...
Main theme
Main 1 (walking)2:08
Main 2 (walking 2) 2:32
Main 3 (walking 3) 3:09
Main 4 (walking 4) 1:43
Main 5 (walking after 6min) 4:06
Main 6 (walking after 6min) 5:07
Main 7 (walking after 10min) 2:04
Main 8 (walking after 10 min *rare*) 1:14
Preparation Theme
Prep 1 (in home base)
Prep 2 (in home base 2)
Prep 3 (in home base enemy spotted 1)
Prep 4 (in home base enemy spotted 2)
Prep 5 (in home base enemy spotted after 10min 1)
etc...
etc...
The more time a composer has (and this project may be a great resource for these themes and extensive music) the more subtle changes OR not so subtle changes he could do between different circumstances that will happen over time.
The programmer could also state things in the scripts like {Theme 3 MUST be followed by Theme 4 or 2} in case you have different key signatures between different themes. Then in a transition the computer will automatically transfer the player to different themes that can coincide with eachother without running into problems with key changes. And it makes the game look "smart"
It may sound complicated... but it's not in my head. hehe
Was I clear at all? (hope I was) :P
04/22/2002 (9:12 pm)
Nick: Yeah, Gigastudio is an amazing program. I'm an avid fan of it. even if it does still have some issues with it. It's still worth it. Here's that demo: GigDemo.mp3
I put it together in an hour or so tonight and then mixed it down. It's not as complete as I would make it as a "final version" song but I thought that I'd put something together that would show off Gigastudio a little bit.
Every instrument is a Gigastudio instrument.
About Interactive Music:
If you listen to Halo they did a very good job with longer themes that would loop into eachother. The way they were broken down roughly was;
Tense 1
Tense 2
Tense 3
More Tense 1
More Tense 2
etc...
The music fit very well together and the loops typically lasted about 1:00 - 1:30. But there would be specific triggers for the musical events. You wouldn't hear the "Oh Shit!" theme unless you were fighting against a lot of enemies for about 2 minutes and then the music would pick up even MORE than where it was with the "oh shit" loop.
It really worked well and you're only limited by the programmers time to create the scripts and your time to produce the themes. In the end you could have an EXTENSIVE set of longer loops that are very specific for each level.
They would also have themes that were tagges as "rare" and wouldn't be played as often as the "main" ones.
ie...
Main theme
Main 1 (walking)2:08
Main 2 (walking 2) 2:32
Main 3 (walking 3) 3:09
Main 4 (walking 4) 1:43
Main 5 (walking after 6min) 4:06
Main 6 (walking after 6min) 5:07
Main 7 (walking after 10min) 2:04
Main 8 (walking after 10 min *rare*) 1:14
Preparation Theme
Prep 1 (in home base)
Prep 2 (in home base 2)
Prep 3 (in home base enemy spotted 1)
Prep 4 (in home base enemy spotted 2)
Prep 5 (in home base enemy spotted after 10min 1)
etc...
etc...
The more time a composer has (and this project may be a great resource for these themes and extensive music) the more subtle changes OR not so subtle changes he could do between different circumstances that will happen over time.
The programmer could also state things in the scripts like {Theme 3 MUST be followed by Theme 4 or 2} in case you have different key signatures between different themes. Then in a transition the computer will automatically transfer the player to different themes that can coincide with eachother without running into problems with key changes. And it makes the game look "smart"
It may sound complicated... but it's not in my head. hehe
Was I clear at all? (hope I was) :P
#11
Thats along the lines of what I was thinking of for interactive music. Define a 'Music' object that contains a set of Ogg Vorbis streams and some 'metadata' like loop points and entry points. 'Point Name' = 'Sample Position'. Then have some transition rules in there too. Have the game engine send events to the music object, and the music object decides what to do (fade in new track at point X, or whatever).
This is a good discussion. Lets keep it up!
04/22/2002 (9:28 pm)
Nice! I haven't written any music on the computer since my days messing with Protracker on the Amiga. How primitive that sounds now...Thats along the lines of what I was thinking of for interactive music. Define a 'Music' object that contains a set of Ogg Vorbis streams and some 'metadata' like loop points and entry points. 'Point Name' = 'Sample Position'. Then have some transition rules in there too. Have the game engine send events to the music object, and the music object decides what to do (fade in new track at point X, or whatever).
This is a good discussion. Lets keep it up!
#12
Re: dynamic vs. static tracks
It seems that composers need to be prepared for either since some prefer one over the other. If I can summarize the issues from a composer's standpoint:
The static track is the easiest to write, though it may take a couple of tries before the designer is satisfied that it hits just the right mood. It may contained extended melody or may not. I say these are easiest, but the challenge is to write something that is interesting to hear over and over, so this track is likely to be long, even 4 or 5 minutes, so that the repetition isn't annoying. Someone needs to do a study to see what an optimal time is -- any budding psychologists around here?
The dynamic track has to be designed in a way that it makes sense to jump off at almost any point to another track. Long melodic phrases are not likely to work because of the potential for sudden interruption. The easy aspect of writing this kind of track is in creating rhythm "beds" and dropping in shorter musical objects. The difficulty is thinking in terms of 2 or 3 tracks at once and, for the programmer, making certain that changes don't come too frequently, or the track might just sound a little silly.
Nick
04/23/2002 (5:14 am)
@Raison - nice sample! The strings and brass demos that I've heard at the Nemesys site show off some sounds I just have to lay my hands on. I'll get it soon-- I'm still saving my pennies.Re: dynamic vs. static tracks
It seems that composers need to be prepared for either since some prefer one over the other. If I can summarize the issues from a composer's standpoint:
The static track is the easiest to write, though it may take a couple of tries before the designer is satisfied that it hits just the right mood. It may contained extended melody or may not. I say these are easiest, but the challenge is to write something that is interesting to hear over and over, so this track is likely to be long, even 4 or 5 minutes, so that the repetition isn't annoying. Someone needs to do a study to see what an optimal time is -- any budding psychologists around here?
The dynamic track has to be designed in a way that it makes sense to jump off at almost any point to another track. Long melodic phrases are not likely to work because of the potential for sudden interruption. The easy aspect of writing this kind of track is in creating rhythm "beds" and dropping in shorter musical objects. The difficulty is thinking in terms of 2 or 3 tracks at once and, for the programmer, making certain that changes don't come too frequently, or the track might just sound a little silly.
Nick
#13
I did a lot of work for a mod (that fell apart) for Deus Ex and their solution to interactive music was to use MOD. Impulse Tracker, ModTracker, etc... Which basically would be a low level sampler to create the music. But it was restricted in filesizes to about 2MB for performance reasons.
Personally... I HATED it... too much time fiddling and less time COMPOSING.
@Nick:
The way I look at it, creating static/dynamic tracks are basically the same thing. I think that most composers (I may be wrong) think of their songs in sections much like a rock song or ballad. You've got your main theme... then your bridge... your secondary theme... your suspense theme... then the break where everything rises to the peak... return to secondary theme... (birdge maybe) main theme again...
The best solution to interactive music that I can think of is to take the approach that Bungie did with Halo. Rather then thinking of each loop as a different theme, write an entire soundtrack and think of the different sections of your songs as the various loops. So it's like you're chopping up a full score into it's components. Then modifying each one slightly to give some variation.
As long as you have the same basic theme with more instruments, less instruments, different percussion, etc... And an intelligently written program for making changes (that the composer would specify to the programmer)you have a great recipe for some good interactive music.
As long as the composer places the correct priority for different loops the soundtrack will seem to grow and evolve throughout the game. The only thing it needs to be done properly is TIME.
Which is why it's so important for developers to start thinking about music from DAY 1! We usually get the shaft with time and programmer resources and this project may be a great opportunity to give us the time we need to make some truly excellent interactive soundtracks.
BTW... The reason I know what I know about Halo is because I attended the session at the GDC called "Audio production for Halo" so I know all about the process they went through for it and what worked and didn't work for them. I didn't even realize half the time in game that the score was interactive it was done so well. To me, it's the tried and proven method and it would be wise to follow in their footsteps.
The key is striking that balance between complexity and creative freedom. We dont' want to get bogged down in the specific key changes, meters, rythyms, etc... of EACH loop. When I have more time I'll map out an entire structure to what I'm thinking for an Audio engine (if people want me too. hehe)
Right now I'm a little bogged down doing soundFX/Music for Dogs of Prey. What do you all say? Should we write up an audio engine proposal?
04/23/2002 (9:13 am)
@Kurtis:I did a lot of work for a mod (that fell apart) for Deus Ex and their solution to interactive music was to use MOD. Impulse Tracker, ModTracker, etc... Which basically would be a low level sampler to create the music. But it was restricted in filesizes to about 2MB for performance reasons.
Personally... I HATED it... too much time fiddling and less time COMPOSING.
@Nick:
The way I look at it, creating static/dynamic tracks are basically the same thing. I think that most composers (I may be wrong) think of their songs in sections much like a rock song or ballad. You've got your main theme... then your bridge... your secondary theme... your suspense theme... then the break where everything rises to the peak... return to secondary theme... (birdge maybe) main theme again...
The best solution to interactive music that I can think of is to take the approach that Bungie did with Halo. Rather then thinking of each loop as a different theme, write an entire soundtrack and think of the different sections of your songs as the various loops. So it's like you're chopping up a full score into it's components. Then modifying each one slightly to give some variation.
As long as you have the same basic theme with more instruments, less instruments, different percussion, etc... And an intelligently written program for making changes (that the composer would specify to the programmer)you have a great recipe for some good interactive music.
As long as the composer places the correct priority for different loops the soundtrack will seem to grow and evolve throughout the game. The only thing it needs to be done properly is TIME.
Which is why it's so important for developers to start thinking about music from DAY 1! We usually get the shaft with time and programmer resources and this project may be a great opportunity to give us the time we need to make some truly excellent interactive soundtracks.
BTW... The reason I know what I know about Halo is because I attended the session at the GDC called "Audio production for Halo" so I know all about the process they went through for it and what worked and didn't work for them. I didn't even realize half the time in game that the score was interactive it was done so well. To me, it's the tried and proven method and it would be wise to follow in their footsteps.
The key is striking that balance between complexity and creative freedom. We dont' want to get bogged down in the specific key changes, meters, rythyms, etc... of EACH loop. When I have more time I'll map out an entire structure to what I'm thinking for an Audio engine (if people want me too. hehe)
Right now I'm a little bogged down doing soundFX/Music for Dogs of Prey. What do you all say? Should we write up an audio engine proposal?
#14
Jeff Tunnell GG
04/23/2002 (9:39 am)
Please do. Knowing what the composers think is important will help the implementors.Jeff Tunnell GG
#15
I could see some limited interactive music working in RW, though I don't know how often the calmer themes would really play. The point of the game is intense action after all. It would be different if there were a singleplayer mode with sequences where the player was exploring/ talking to NPC's, etc. RW (at least as far as I see it) is pretty much a constant battle.
One big obstacle I see to doing an interactive score to RW is the number of composers likely to be working on it. Its probable that (at least) several people are going to want to contribute music. Therefore it's also likely that there will be a good deal of inconsistency in style and equipment used between those composers. Unless each 'race' in RW only uses music from one composer, it would be pretty hard to transition seamlessly between interactive loops composed by different people and retain a consistent listening experience.
It would also be somewhat stifling creatively if there were a 'house style' imposed, too. Its possible that a cool soundtrack to RW could be created using orchestral music, but its equally possible that some people would enjoy stomping heads as an orc to the tunes of industrial / metal sounds... or techno, even. Just because its a fantasy themed game, those styles aren't necessarily excluded.
What might be neat is if the game client had a sort of jukebox / playlist manager in it. People could download music from the GG site, drop it in the RW music folder (or wherever it needs to go), and set up a playlist from the main menu area.
That would allow each composer their own unique take on things, and would also allow players to tailor the music to their tastes. It woudn't even exclude the possibility of doing interactive music. If each composer had a standard set of format guidelines to follow (like there should be X amount of light action tracks, Y intense action tracks, and Z extra tracks that will be mixed into the fray from time to time, all named to fit a standard naming convention so the program recognizes them) that would allow for multiple sets of interactive music from different people. The player would just select the set(s) of interactive music that they wanted to hear.
With this being a community project and all, its reasonable to assume that lots of people will want to contribute and that they will be at varying skill levels and have varying resources invested in their sound gear (and varying levels of commitment to doing lots of work). There really has to be some consideration given to how to avoid excluding people. With a playlist manager / jukebox, the players themselves could have a say in what their gaming experience is like, and if they didnt care for a particular composer or style of music, it would be easy for them to find stuff they did enjoy.
04/23/2002 (11:32 am)
With the Halo music, did one loop finish playing before the next started? I.e., if you were wandering around exploring (hearing the calm exploration loops) and suddenly plopped into an intense firefight- did it break right into the exploration loop with the fight music, or did it wait until the exploring loop finished to start the new mood?I could see some limited interactive music working in RW, though I don't know how often the calmer themes would really play. The point of the game is intense action after all. It would be different if there were a singleplayer mode with sequences where the player was exploring/ talking to NPC's, etc. RW (at least as far as I see it) is pretty much a constant battle.
One big obstacle I see to doing an interactive score to RW is the number of composers likely to be working on it. Its probable that (at least) several people are going to want to contribute music. Therefore it's also likely that there will be a good deal of inconsistency in style and equipment used between those composers. Unless each 'race' in RW only uses music from one composer, it would be pretty hard to transition seamlessly between interactive loops composed by different people and retain a consistent listening experience.
It would also be somewhat stifling creatively if there were a 'house style' imposed, too. Its possible that a cool soundtrack to RW could be created using orchestral music, but its equally possible that some people would enjoy stomping heads as an orc to the tunes of industrial / metal sounds... or techno, even. Just because its a fantasy themed game, those styles aren't necessarily excluded.
What might be neat is if the game client had a sort of jukebox / playlist manager in it. People could download music from the GG site, drop it in the RW music folder (or wherever it needs to go), and set up a playlist from the main menu area.
That would allow each composer their own unique take on things, and would also allow players to tailor the music to their tastes. It woudn't even exclude the possibility of doing interactive music. If each composer had a standard set of format guidelines to follow (like there should be X amount of light action tracks, Y intense action tracks, and Z extra tracks that will be mixed into the fray from time to time, all named to fit a standard naming convention so the program recognizes them) that would allow for multiple sets of interactive music from different people. The player would just select the set(s) of interactive music that they wanted to hear.
With this being a community project and all, its reasonable to assume that lots of people will want to contribute and that they will be at varying skill levels and have varying resources invested in their sound gear (and varying levels of commitment to doing lots of work). There really has to be some consideration given to how to avoid excluding people. With a playlist manager / jukebox, the players themselves could have a say in what their gaming experience is like, and if they didnt care for a particular composer or style of music, it would be easy for them to find stuff they did enjoy.
#16
Whenever we get an idea of an interactive music format, I can start working on an independent editor/player so we can test out our ideas.
04/23/2002 (12:08 pm)
Instead of 'light' or 'intense' tracks what about 'winning', 'losing', or 'neutral' tracks? Or make themes that can blend together and would work played independently and fade them in or out depending on the situation.Whenever we get an idea of an interactive music format, I can start working on an independent editor/player so we can test out our ideas.
#17
I'll agree with you about the static/dynamic track in this sense: a "static" track has one jump point, from the end to the beginning, triggered by one event- reaching the end of the track; a "dynamic" track is written with the idea that a jump may be made at just about any time to another part of the track triggered by events in the program. In the first case, the composer need only consider making the beginning and ending the same, while in the second case, there are many more of these jumps to consider.
Is the Halo audio presentation from GDC available on the web somewhere? I'm sure their solution is a good one because everyone has commented on it. I hear you as saying that their approach was to have one long track with loopable sections. I'll be interested to hear where the jump points are.
@Joel
I would support the idea of having choices available for download, or whatever, for the style of music the player wants. Changing the music could then be a part of the options list. There would have to be some standard format for a RW track, though. For example, require two or three loops in a single track and have the composer be able to specify where the jump off/jump on points are: (jump-off x points to jump-on y for a medium intensity situation or jump-on z for max intensity).
Nick
04/23/2002 (12:15 pm)
@RaisonI'll agree with you about the static/dynamic track in this sense: a "static" track has one jump point, from the end to the beginning, triggered by one event- reaching the end of the track; a "dynamic" track is written with the idea that a jump may be made at just about any time to another part of the track triggered by events in the program. In the first case, the composer need only consider making the beginning and ending the same, while in the second case, there are many more of these jumps to consider.
Is the Halo audio presentation from GDC available on the web somewhere? I'm sure their solution is a good one because everyone has commented on it. I hear you as saying that their approach was to have one long track with loopable sections. I'll be interested to hear where the jump points are.
@Joel
I would support the idea of having choices available for download, or whatever, for the style of music the player wants. Changing the music could then be a part of the options list. There would have to be some standard format for a RW track, though. For example, require two or three loops in a single track and have the composer be able to specify where the jump off/jump on points are: (jump-off x points to jump-on y for a medium intensity situation or jump-on z for max intensity).
Nick
#18
It should be a small easy to use drop down window or something that appears on screen so with as few clicks as possible, the player can select his theme. Everything should be done from within the game causing as little need to fiddle with things outside of the experience of RW.
It would be best to include a good set of themes from various composers in the first release of RW as well. To cut down on as much downloading as possible. Because I think it's usually about 10% of people who play a game who actually go outside of the game and seek out different models, sounds, music, etc... to use. And we want to make sure everyone gets maximum exposure.
There will also need to be guidelines. To keep everything as consistent as possible. ie...
Required length of soundtrack: 30 - 45min
At least 15 loopable "tracks"
Contact info + credits (if any live musicians are used)
Detailed description of theme
etc...
*just pulling these numbers outta my ass. Just an example.
I can't think of other requirements off the top of my head... But I think that it's very doable to have many different people compose their own themes.
We could even divide everything by maps as well. This person gets this map... etc... but I think the jukebox idea is the best so far.
@Nick:
Thanks for your compliment before... didn't mean to ignore it. Can't see the posts when replying.. it's only slightly annoying. ;)
The GDC session is available on CD-Rom there's an order form actually to get what sessions you want on a CD. I'm not sure if it's on their website or not... www.gdconf.com
But you can call them if you're interested and I'm sure they'll send you an order form.
04/23/2002 (6:21 pm)
I think the jukebox idea has some merit to it... but it has to be implemented well. It should be a small easy to use drop down window or something that appears on screen so with as few clicks as possible, the player can select his theme. Everything should be done from within the game causing as little need to fiddle with things outside of the experience of RW.
It would be best to include a good set of themes from various composers in the first release of RW as well. To cut down on as much downloading as possible. Because I think it's usually about 10% of people who play a game who actually go outside of the game and seek out different models, sounds, music, etc... to use. And we want to make sure everyone gets maximum exposure.
There will also need to be guidelines. To keep everything as consistent as possible. ie...
Required length of soundtrack: 30 - 45min
At least 15 loopable "tracks"
Contact info + credits (if any live musicians are used)
Detailed description of theme
etc...
*just pulling these numbers outta my ass. Just an example.
I can't think of other requirements off the top of my head... But I think that it's very doable to have many different people compose their own themes.
We could even divide everything by maps as well. This person gets this map... etc... but I think the jukebox idea is the best so far.
@Nick:
Thanks for your compliment before... didn't mean to ignore it. Can't see the posts when replying.. it's only slightly annoying. ;)
The GDC session is available on CD-Rom there's an order form actually to get what sessions you want on a CD. I'm not sure if it's on their website or not... www.gdconf.com
But you can call them if you're interested and I'm sure they'll send you an order form.
#19
I was thinking that the Ogg format's user-defined tags could be used (perhaps in combination with some sort of prototyping/composition program) to indicate transition points for a dynamic music system.
For instance, making one called "LoopStart 0:00:00" and "LoopEnd 1:23:45" to indicate where the music can be looped. I'll have to dig up my old idea sheet, I was thinking something along the lines of the LucasArts IMUSE system.
04/23/2002 (7:22 pm)
Sorry for cross-posting. I posted this in the other Underscore thread yesterday, but as there seems to be some regurgitation of topics I'll stick it here, too:I was thinking that the Ogg format's user-defined tags could be used (perhaps in combination with some sort of prototyping/composition program) to indicate transition points for a dynamic music system.
For instance, making one called "LoopStart 0:00:00" and "LoopEnd 1:23:45" to indicate where the music can be looped. I'll have to dig up my old idea sheet, I was thinking something along the lines of the LucasArts IMUSE system.
#20
04/24/2002 (10:30 am)
Another game that made excellent use of dynamic music was Total Annihilation (you know Chris Talyor's game =). You can probably pick it up for like $10 in a bargain bin these days if you want to check it out. 
James Hamar
Again -- keep up the good work.