Linux Version?...

#1 I was able to use the 1.10 source release from Windows to create a working build under Linux - and it seemed to work just fine (Although, I did have to stub out or write a few missing functions, if I recall). Admittedly, I did not heavily test the Linux version, but the scroller demo and fish demo seemed to run okay.

If you have access to the source version, this may be the way to go.

What problems are you running into?

#2 TGB does run under Linux and it is community supported. In fact, it was running only hours after the official release.
I do have a mailing list setup for Linux stuff at T2DLinux.net.

The reasons why the download page hasn't been updated are:

1) I have no direct access to commit code changes
2) A general lack of communication with garagegames. I haven't heard anything from them in 2 months.

#3 David, I know that and I know you work hard to make TGB work on Linux and that lack of communication from GarageGames is exactly what bothers me - regardless of what they really feel, what their attitude leads us to think is that they couldn't care less for the Linux versions of their products.

The very least they could do is to put a very explicit warning about this on the products' pages.


Mark, I do have access to the source version but I really don't think I should be doing this. First, because I don't know the inner workings of TGB and thus I don't know if it will work OK in such a situation. Second, because I shouldn't have to do that; after all, I bought something which I was told it would work under Linux.


So perhaps I'm being just another whiner here in the forums. Perhaps I'm just one among hundreds of users and for that reason my rant will fade away unheard by those who would give a *#$%. If GarageGames doesn't want to care about Linux users, that's fine by me, I can understand that they don't have the manpower to work on a cross-platform engine and thus decide to focus only on a couple of platforms. But hey, at least have the decency to tell that upfront to the customers before they buy your products. And if that decision came after some of them bought your products, at least don't let them in the dark and let them know what's going on. Or at the very least, have the decency of offering a refund for those who feel this kind of service isn't what they purchased and would rather invest their money on something else.

Yeah, I know, I already downloaded the whole thing so now you wont give me a refund because I may keep the source code and still use it to make a game... well, you know what? That's a risk you should take, if you want to look really honest. I took the risk of purchasing an early-adopter license. Until now, I don't think I got what you said I was going to get. And taking into account that I had some semi-serious plans that relied on TGB (which would eventually become serious plans if things went well) but had to give up on them because of all the delay, I think I'm in a position to say that I'm entitled to a refund for TGB.

And you know what's the saddest part of all this? It's this, this post, this message I'm writing. I'm usually the most quiet guy on earth, someone who tries the hardest not to make any waves and now I find myself writing all this crap... why? Because the feeling of frustration grew so big that all my calmness was not enough to contain it. And that makes me sad, because there was absolutely no need of this, if only GG would have warned me beforehand that TGB would not be supported on Linux.

So here I am, once again, offering myself to help. Do you guys need testers for the Linux version of TGB? What can I do to help you guys put this darn thing out the door? Please, pretty please, with sugar on top, let me help. Although I'm not sure what I'll accomplish with all this, since David already has some connections with GG and even so he is ignored...

Blagh... enough frustration-feeding for one day, time to go to bed.

Raul

#4 Raul, In the time it took to write up that rant, you could probably have a working build for Linux. Everyone who runs Linux compiles most stuff anyways (at least back in the day they did). "make" and GCC are your friends

#5 >Everyone who runs Linux compiles most stuff anyways

What does that have to do with anything? Of course we compile stuff, the point is you can't compile T2D without lots of modification.
Raul makes some pretty good points. I bought TSE over 2 years ago expecting a linux port way before now. Then I see this and realized the money I spent on TSE just went up in smoke. Sure, I *could* rewrite the thing to use opengl 2.0 - but I'd go broke doing it. That was 8 months ago and since then I've been focusing on keeping T2D running on Linux as it's critical to my business ventures for it to run on Linux. As a by-product of that, I've been trying to submit patches back to GG so the rest of the Linux folk can use them.

Problems that I'd like to see fixed:
1) Biggest one - communication. I'd like a single point of contact at GG to communicate with regarding Linux issues. The help is here, working and trying to make gg.com truely cross-platform again - but Ron nor myself have gotten any response in a long time.

2) Access to commit code changes. Beta fix after beta fix resulted in new bugs on top of old bugs I had already fixed. I'd like to fix a problem just once, commit and move on to the next one.

3) See number one. Even if the email reply is "Hi Dave, screw off!", at least I know it made it past the spam filter.

4) A clear path for people who intend to use gg products for linux. Maybe a big link to the mailing lists or a - You must be smarter than your average bear to run this under linux - sign. Short of sitting down and reading every search result for linux support, there's no clear sign saying - Linux folk need to go here.

5) Where's the tar.gz file(s)? Nearly all your win32 users and most of your mac users want the nice pretty installer package, but linux folk don't. But there's no option to just download a t2d.tar.gz or even a .zip file. We have to run wine or borrow a mac to get the files. And some installers - like the 1.3 only work if you have a desktop running. Most of your linux usage will occur server side - they will not run a graphical installer. A nightly snapshot of the current svn or cvs zipped up available for download would fix this.

#6 In fairness, I do have a Linux partition on my PC, but it is currently empty. Have never tried building TGB on Linux. Although I have used the makefiles on Win32 with GCC.

Kudos to David and the others doing the actual Linux work. When I release my game I fully intend to build it for Windows, MacOSX and Linux. But if 97%+ of sales come from Windows and Mac OSX then clearly the Linux build will not be missed, if it's too much work.

#7 @David - point(s) taken! A.

#8 Without meaning any offense to the folks at GG, I still think that something is wrong with their approach to building a cross-platform engine.

I mean, if it compiles on Windows AND Mac OS X (which is a *nix), then why doesn't it compile in Linux? Heck, I think I'd have to try hard to make it incompatible. If they'd stick to a few rules - which they should anyway, because it results in cleaner, better, more portable code - they'd be writing standard code that could be compiled (almost) anywhere. The two remaining problems would be the required libraries (which could not be available for all platforms) and the build chain.

Yes, I know I'm over-simplifying things but it's not much harder than this. It's just a really tiny little bit of extra effort to make the whole code compatible - unless, of course, you don't plan things this way from the beginning or don't know how to write portable code (again, no offense meant to GG).

For example, look at the "no end of line" problem - how hard is it to make your editor use a standard line termination character? You'd invest (yes, invest, not waste) 2 minutes of your time to make your editor write the correct end of line character and those two minutes would probably result in a bunch of hours that people would not have to waste trying to fix it.

#9 I know you both have read the threads where GG staff explained that they love Linux, but why Linux is not high priority for them, and why it is "community supported" or unsupported depending on your perspective. I know because you guys posted followups in those threads.

re: why doesn't it compile in Linux?

Was there ever a Mac OS 8 or 9 build of Torque? Don't think so and the reason is that GG had the foresight to write cross platform code that could compile on many *NIX platforms. [edit: maybe they knew Mac OS Classic was a dead platform, or maybe they needed a solid server OS for multiplayer games, so they wrote in *NIX support. I don't know]. But now Mac OS X is supported because (it is a safe assumption) because Mac OS X is at the core based on BSD / GCC / OpenGL. So it would seem to be guaranteed that Torque codebase is NEVER going to diverge to the point where it's impossible to build on Linux, as long as Mac OS X is still supported. Why is OS X supported instead of Linux or instead of say, Solaris or FreeBSD? Simple: because Mac users buy a lot of games.

re: look at the "no end of line" problem .

Raul, I am not sure what problem that's in reference to, but as far as I know, GG does not publish any script editors. Torsion, Codeweaver, etc. are all created and maintained by 3rd parties.

Look- I've been there. I used to be a Linux zealot. I have spent many an hour trying to get XYZ software to compile on Linux. But unfortunately for many people Linux advocacy becomes an end in itself. That attitude is actually a problem for the whole Linux platform.

Now I just want to make games. That seems to be the GG approach too. They just want to make and publish games. The Torque game engine(s) are a natural by product of making and publishing games. That is a good philosophy, in my opinion.

#10 Alex, as I said, I don't have a problem with GG not supporting Linux - as long as they're honest about it before people buy their products.

And I wasn't referring to the matter of supporting this or that platform because that platform's users buy more games, I was talking about writing portable code, which is not such a hell as many people like to paint it, as long as you know how to do it and have planned your product from the start with portability in mind.

I wouldn't even mind if GG would tell me

"look, we know this works on Linux, because we wrote the code with portability in mind and we even compiled and ran it a couple of times under Linux, just for fun. So we do know it works. But we can't support it officialy, because we don't have enough people for that and the revenues we get from Linux sales don't justify it. If you still want to buy the product, go ahead but keep in mind that if you have any problems, you'll have to take care of them yourself or with the help of the GG community."

This is the kind of honesty I'd ask before having bought TGB and TGE. But what I got was a promiss of a working Linux product, which I still haven't received.

Come on, GG even has people working with them (David and Ron. maybe for free?) to make their products work on Linux and what do they do? They ignore them. So, GG not only does not fullfill their promiss to their clients, not only does not have time to make portable code (or knowledge - because if you know how to do it, it takes the same time that non-portable code) but also ignores those who offer to help them make their products better and lets everyone in the dark regarding what is going on and why a product version for Linux that could already be out is still delayed.


I don't think I'm being a Linux zealot and I know the attitude of some people only hurts the Linux community. I'm not even talking about anything related specifically to Linux. I'm only writing about a company keeping or breaking a business promiss, letting their clients in the dark versus being honest and transparent to them and writing or not writing portable code.

So this rant has absolutely nothing to do with Linux, it only has to do with the fact that I paid for something and I didn't receive it. Even worst, the company I purchased from seems to refuse to let their clients know what's going on (which they can do, ithey have the right to do that - it's just not very clever from them, because the only thing they achieve is to irritate their clients).

I would have the same reaction if I used Windows/MacOSX/AmigaOS/SkyOS and I bought something from a company that said their product worked under Windows/MacOSX/AmigaOS/SkyOS and later I came to find out that not only doesn't the product work but if I want support for that product I also have to get it from the community.

This is why I'm writing all this. Not any other reason. Because I also just want to make games and I just lost one hell of an opportunity because GG didn't keep their promiss.

#11 Got it. Sigh it's like that Led Zeppelin song "Communication Breakdown... it's always the same! a baamm-ba dam-aar aa...."

#12 Is there any way one could setup a 'source license only' CVS or SVN repository, just like when the TGE 1.4.2 build was prepared? As I recall, that option was explicitely mentioned by GG when the Linux support issue was raised.

I agree, there would be some issues around integrating it into the official TGB source, but at least we would have something to start with right away.

When Linux releases lack half the functionality of the other platforms, it's not really hard to understand it's not used much as a target.

#13 Hey Guys,
Looks like I'm rather late to this party, but I did want to jump and make a statement or two :)

@Raul : Please accept my sinceare apologies for the trouble you've experienced with getting TGB running on your linux platform. As has been stated widely around our site and in many places, our linux platform is entirely community supported. This has been cleared up on the product page as one of the many pages did reference code-once and linux.

I have just today emailed David and another community member today about getting an updated linux download setup for the next release of the software, this may help alleviate some of your problems.

Hope this helps clear up some of you all concerns!

Best Regards,
-Justin

#14 Thanks for the answer, Justin. And thanks for clearing up this question on the product page. I really think you guys have a great product here and I'm pretty sure that clearing this up will help you to keep your reputation up, not only among new users but also among existing ones.

Just a couple of questions: when you say "for the next release of the software", you mean TGB 1.1 will not have a Linux version? If so, when is this new version expected?

Thanks again!

Raul

#15 @Justin: Did you get the email I sent yesterday?

#16 @Raul : When I say "for the next relelase of the software" I am referring to the next point release which will be 1.1.1 and should be available in the next week or two. TGB 1.1.0 does have a linux version but it must be obtained by going through David's email list or some other mechanism. I understand this is a bit of a pain for you all so I'm doing my best to coordinate having a linux ready download for the product page when the 1.1.1 release ships.

@David : I did and will be responding today with more info :)

Cheers,
-Justin

#17 Justin, any updates on the Linux version?

Thanks,

Raul

#18 Apologies, this is a bit OT, but I'm new to how updates work here at GG since TGB is my first GG product. Is there a list of features in the next update available, or is the information only released when the actual update is released?

#19 @Raul : I do in fact have good news for you! I've just yesterday received a linux build from NfoCipher so you'll be seeing it with the 1.1.1 release that is just around the corner.

@Apurva : I will be posting a blog soon about the new things you can expect to see in the 1.1.1 release, keep an eye on the community page blogs for my name to pop up. This will be a few days before the release and we'll have a news item about the release when it goes live!

Cheers fellas,

-Justin

#20 Ooh, thanks Justin! Looking forward to this.