Problems with music
by Benjamin McMillan · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 04/14/2002 (6:36 pm) · 15 replies
I'm currently writing the score for "Children of Mars" by Protean Entertainment and recently had to make the decision to abandon live recordings in favor of synthesized.
Now since this is our first game and we're all basically a bunch of college guys, this isn't some huge deal.
But it is a problem among indies with limited funds. Getting a full orchestra to play your music, taking however long to record, paying all them, plus the recording guys AND use of the concert hall/studio, is certainly NOT cheap!
Luckily advances in midi have made it possible to produce some decent music. Look at Bungie's "Myth" series. I believe most of that was synthesized and it turned out ok.
Another problem with a lot of games I've seen recently is the style of music. It just doesn't seem to be that unique anymore. The same has happened in the movie industry (talking REAL music, orchestrated, not those dumb movies that use only pop music.)
Rarely anymore do you hear an AWESOME soundtrack from John Williams.
Rarely anymore do you hear an AWESOME soundtrack to video games. Although the Diablo 2 Expansion was pretty good, compared to Diablo 2's original score.
So I just wish some "movie quality" stuff would be produced for games (especially stuff as good as Shore's "Fellowship of the Rings" score)
Ben ~batteries not included~
Now since this is our first game and we're all basically a bunch of college guys, this isn't some huge deal.
But it is a problem among indies with limited funds. Getting a full orchestra to play your music, taking however long to record, paying all them, plus the recording guys AND use of the concert hall/studio, is certainly NOT cheap!
Luckily advances in midi have made it possible to produce some decent music. Look at Bungie's "Myth" series. I believe most of that was synthesized and it turned out ok.
Another problem with a lot of games I've seen recently is the style of music. It just doesn't seem to be that unique anymore. The same has happened in the movie industry (talking REAL music, orchestrated, not those dumb movies that use only pop music.)
Rarely anymore do you hear an AWESOME soundtrack from John Williams.
Rarely anymore do you hear an AWESOME soundtrack to video games. Although the Diablo 2 Expansion was pretty good, compared to Diablo 2's original score.
So I just wish some "movie quality" stuff would be produced for games (especially stuff as good as Shore's "Fellowship of the Rings" score)
Ben ~batteries not included~
About the author
#2
On the positive side, using MIDI (with or without downloadable samples) tends to result in much smaller sizes for the music, which is a great thing for indie developers who plan to use electronic distribution. Its also much easier to implement dynamic music (music changes to match on-screen action, using some amount of algorithmic blending) using these formats.
I do agree in general with your comments on soundtracks.. Though I have to go against the grain and say that Williams' score for The Phantom Menace was actually very good and underrated..While I think his score on Attack of the Clones is pretty lackluster.
And on the videogame front, I think the soundtrack from Soul Reaver (the first SR..second Legacy of Kain game) is rather amazing...though that's reaching back a few years.
04/14/2002 (9:13 pm)
Look into MIDI with DLS (downloadable samples). This is the scheme used in Microsoft's DirectMusic. Its not quite a solution to having recordings that sound like live music (you still get the 'too perfect' timing, etc), but using downloadable samples at least saves you from the fact that most people's general MIDI sample set is crap quality and the sound is very inconsistent from card to card.On the positive side, using MIDI (with or without downloadable samples) tends to result in much smaller sizes for the music, which is a great thing for indie developers who plan to use electronic distribution. Its also much easier to implement dynamic music (music changes to match on-screen action, using some amount of algorithmic blending) using these formats.
I do agree in general with your comments on soundtracks.. Though I have to go against the grain and say that Williams' score for The Phantom Menace was actually very good and underrated..While I think his score on Attack of the Clones is pretty lackluster.
And on the videogame front, I think the soundtrack from Soul Reaver (the first SR..second Legacy of Kain game) is rather amazing...though that's reaching back a few years.
#3
You can stop by www.nicholaspalmer.com to hear some of it, or my MP3.com page for a more complete collection.
I also posted a rate page for hiring an orchestra to play a soundtrack. I haven't done it yet, but I have looked up all the costs and discussed the idea with musicians. Synthesized sounds, though, are always improving. I think my next move is to get Giga with the $1000 string samples CD. I just need some cold hard cash from one of these garage game companies!
Nick
04/17/2002 (6:07 pm)
I'm working out the same problems. I have been recording with a synth (Roland 1080) for a 1 1/2 years now and time and time again stumble on new ways to make the music expressive. Many of the Roland sounds are still too synthetic, but I find that if I use the sounds I have for what they can do rather than try and force them to have the effect I want, I save a lot of time and end up with a better track.You can stop by www.nicholaspalmer.com to hear some of it, or my MP3.com page for a more complete collection.
I also posted a rate page for hiring an orchestra to play a soundtrack. I haven't done it yet, but I have looked up all the costs and discussed the idea with musicians. Synthesized sounds, though, are always improving. I think my next move is to get Giga with the $1000 string samples CD. I just need some cold hard cash from one of these garage game companies!
Nick
#4
The $1000 string library Nick mentioned is well worth the money, assuming we're talking about the same one. At the risk of sounding like a shill, Garritan Orchestral Strings is an amazing 16 CD (or 2 DVD) collection of string ensembles. Its what I use, and it covers all the bases (and basses, violins, viola and celli! heh, music humor).
In GOS, here are countless different articulations, up and down strokes for the short bowings, some nifty programming features through the use of Maestro Tools (a little app that comes with the library) that allow you to auto-alternate up and down strokes and play true legato lines, it slices, dices, and stays sharp after cutting through metal cans. And if my word isn't enough, Jeremy Soule swears by 'em too. Garritan even sends out free update CDs with new articulations and fixes on them. There have been 2 additional update CD's shipped so far.
There are lots of great libraries for Gigastudio if you have the money to spend. I could talk your ear off on the subject but I dont want to hog all GG's bandwidth with my yammering.
Anyhow if you want to hear Giga in action (in the hands of a semi-okay composer like myself), drop by
www.zebox.com/steudler
and have a listen. All four tracks there use the Garritan Strings btw. If you only listen to one track, try 'Conan would be proud'. It has the nicest string work of the four.
________
Oh, and on the matter of videogame soundtracks, Medal of Honor: Allied Assault's orchestral score by Michael Giacchino is better than most major motion picture soundtracks I've heard (and I've heard quite a few).
04/18/2002 (1:05 am)
In my opinion, Gigastudio is really the only choice right now for people who want virtual-orchestra music that sounds real and expressive. Hardware synths just can't compete with the diversity of sounds and size of sample banks available for a hard-drive streaming program like Giga. The only other comparable program out there is Halion for VST apps, but Giga has been around longer and has many more libraries that take advantage of the unique features it offers. To top it off, you can use any AKAI or Emu (or a bunch of other formats if you get the Chickensys translator) libraries you have lying around in Giga if you still want to.The $1000 string library Nick mentioned is well worth the money, assuming we're talking about the same one. At the risk of sounding like a shill, Garritan Orchestral Strings is an amazing 16 CD (or 2 DVD) collection of string ensembles. Its what I use, and it covers all the bases (and basses, violins, viola and celli! heh, music humor).
In GOS, here are countless different articulations, up and down strokes for the short bowings, some nifty programming features through the use of Maestro Tools (a little app that comes with the library) that allow you to auto-alternate up and down strokes and play true legato lines, it slices, dices, and stays sharp after cutting through metal cans. And if my word isn't enough, Jeremy Soule swears by 'em too. Garritan even sends out free update CDs with new articulations and fixes on them. There have been 2 additional update CD's shipped so far.
There are lots of great libraries for Gigastudio if you have the money to spend. I could talk your ear off on the subject but I dont want to hog all GG's bandwidth with my yammering.
Anyhow if you want to hear Giga in action (in the hands of a semi-okay composer like myself), drop by
www.zebox.com/steudler
and have a listen. All four tracks there use the Garritan Strings btw. If you only listen to one track, try 'Conan would be proud'. It has the nicest string work of the four.
________
Oh, and on the matter of videogame soundtracks, Medal of Honor: Allied Assault's orchestral score by Michael Giacchino is better than most major motion picture soundtracks I've heard (and I've heard quite a few).
#5
Where can I get more info on this Giga thing?
(although I'm a poor highschool student about to spend a monkey's uncle paying for college)
Thanks
04/18/2002 (5:40 pm)
Hey those sound pretty good!Where can I get more info on this Giga thing?
(although I'm a poor highschool student about to spend a monkey's uncle paying for college)
Thanks
#6
Phantom Menace score-
Duel of the Fates was definately worth the amount for the whole cd. It's just some of the other songs that seemed to follow the "John Williams formula" for writing..I think it was Jar Jar's theme ( that CGI bastard ;p)
It sounds too much like the Ewok theme. But that aside, the rest of the score was pretty likable.
But I was really suprised at how dull the Harry Potter ST was!
Ben
04/18/2002 (5:46 pm)
Forgot to include this in my last post:Phantom Menace score-
Duel of the Fates was definately worth the amount for the whole cd. It's just some of the other songs that seemed to follow the "John Williams formula" for writing..I think it was Jar Jar's theme ( that CGI bastard ;p)
It sounds too much like the Ewok theme. But that aside, the rest of the score was pretty likable.
But I was really suprised at how dull the Harry Potter ST was!
Ben
#7
I have a comment, too, regarding Howard Shore's LOTR score. During the movie I thought it was incredibly unimaginative, but I bought the soundtrack anyway. It turns out that the parts I recalled being kind of lame (e.g., Hobbiton) were and that I lost track of the score during the movie when it got really good. I really like a number of the effects HS created for many of the intense scenes.
I just bought the soundtrack to Dark Age of Camelot just because it was on the shelf. The synthesized stuff is not very good, but the composer seems to have some imagination. Nothing too profound in my observations-- just today's experience. I'll forget it next week. Aren't you glad I shared that?
Nick
04/18/2002 (5:57 pm)
I agree with your JW opinions - there are some nice moments in Episode 1. Part of the problem with Harry Potter was that the movie plodded along. The score seemed very workman-like for JW. I have a comment, too, regarding Howard Shore's LOTR score. During the movie I thought it was incredibly unimaginative, but I bought the soundtrack anyway. It turns out that the parts I recalled being kind of lame (e.g., Hobbiton) were and that I lost track of the score during the movie when it got really good. I really like a number of the effects HS created for many of the intense scenes.
I just bought the soundtrack to Dark Age of Camelot just because it was on the shelf. The synthesized stuff is not very good, but the composer seems to have some imagination. Nothing too profound in my observations-- just today's experience. I'll forget it next week. Aren't you glad I shared that?
Nick
#8
:)
Ben
04/18/2002 (6:03 pm)
On screen the score seems to get buried by all that's going on, but the soundtrack alone is really one of my favorites. I really hate that they sold it on Enya's name though. Now there's a unimaginative musician!!:)
Ben
#9
I actually didn't mind her song-- Howard Shore either gave her the first few notes, or he had her song to start with, and created the Hobbits' music out of it. So, I thought it worked in context. However, I bought my wife an Enya CD (Shepherd Moon) a couple of weeks back and we both thought it was pretty weak.
Enough musician bashing! Heh.
Nick
04/18/2002 (6:12 pm)
Did you see her at the Academy Awards? Wow! I didn't realize she can't perform in public. That was one of the worst cases of stage fright I've ever seen.I actually didn't mind her song-- Howard Shore either gave her the first few notes, or he had her song to start with, and created the Hobbits' music out of it. So, I thought it worked in context. However, I bought my wife an Enya CD (Shepherd Moon) a couple of weeks back and we both thought it was pretty weak.
Enough musician bashing! Heh.
Nick
#10
In any case, Enya is one of those people who pretty much has one song. If you hear an Enya song you know right off that its Enya because it sounds like it might be another movement in the one long song she's been composing her whole career. I call this the "Offspring Effect".
Re: John Williams. While parts of TPM score were certainly recycled I thought it was mostly done very cleverly. The way Anakin's theme devolves into the Imperial March..The way the happy band song at the end (during the parade) is an alteration of the brooding Emperor's theme from the first movies. Nothing mindblowing, but lots of nice touches. As I mentioned before though, I found the Attack of the Clones soundtrack (out of context of course) rather disappointing...And Harry Potter..Well I thought that movie just sucked in every department. 3 hours of my life (felt like 30) that I'll never get back.
04/19/2002 (12:55 pm)
Enya's stuff is generally carefully produced with a lot of layering. That may be why she has problems performing in public :)In any case, Enya is one of those people who pretty much has one song. If you hear an Enya song you know right off that its Enya because it sounds like it might be another movement in the one long song she's been composing her whole career. I call this the "Offspring Effect".
Re: John Williams. While parts of TPM score were certainly recycled I thought it was mostly done very cleverly. The way Anakin's theme devolves into the Imperial March..The way the happy band song at the end (during the parade) is an alteration of the brooding Emperor's theme from the first movies. Nothing mindblowing, but lots of nice touches. As I mentioned before though, I found the Attack of the Clones soundtrack (out of context of course) rather disappointing...And Harry Potter..Well I thought that movie just sucked in every department. 3 hours of my life (felt like 30) that I'll never get back.
#11
Ben
04/20/2002 (8:40 pm)
Personally I would enjoy watching Gandalf beat Harry Potter with his staff for 3 hours :)Ben
#12
www.nemesysmusic.com
...and you might want to check out Sonic Control for reviews of a whole bunch of libraries that can be used with Giga, as well as some good articles about electronic music-making in general.
On the subjects of John Williams & Howard Shore (since it seems to be a popular thing to discuss at the moment) I'll volunteer a few opinions:
1) If I was only allowed to own one collection of Star Wars music, I'd make it the double CD Special Edition Empire Strikes Back score from RCA Victor / BMG. The 14 min. long Battle of Hoth sequence is probably my all time favorite bit of action music.
2) I haven't heard the Attack of the Clones score yet, so I can't comment on it... but the TPM score was mostly enjoyable, with the exception of that atrocious happy marching band song that plays before the end suite. I like the ESB and A New Hope scores much better than TPM though.
3) I liked Shore's LOTR score both in the film and on the CD. While the themes aren't particluarly complex, they certainly are memorable. The score, to me, supported the movie well and is also a good listen on the album (even the happy hobbit music :) )
...not that my opinions carry any special weight :)
I hope the Giga info was helpful, anyhow. They're putting out a low cost version called Gigastudio32... though its somewhat limited, it is cheap and might be a good starting point for someone on a tight (high school student sized) budget.
04/20/2002 (11:31 pm)
Info on Gigastudio can be found at www.nemesysmusic.com
...and you might want to check out Sonic Control for reviews of a whole bunch of libraries that can be used with Giga, as well as some good articles about electronic music-making in general.
On the subjects of John Williams & Howard Shore (since it seems to be a popular thing to discuss at the moment) I'll volunteer a few opinions:
1) If I was only allowed to own one collection of Star Wars music, I'd make it the double CD Special Edition Empire Strikes Back score from RCA Victor / BMG. The 14 min. long Battle of Hoth sequence is probably my all time favorite bit of action music.
2) I haven't heard the Attack of the Clones score yet, so I can't comment on it... but the TPM score was mostly enjoyable, with the exception of that atrocious happy marching band song that plays before the end suite. I like the ESB and A New Hope scores much better than TPM though.
3) I liked Shore's LOTR score both in the film and on the CD. While the themes aren't particluarly complex, they certainly are memorable. The score, to me, supported the movie well and is also a good listen on the album (even the happy hobbit music :) )
...not that my opinions carry any special weight :)
I hope the Giga info was helpful, anyhow. They're putting out a low cost version called Gigastudio32... though its somewhat limited, it is cheap and might be a good starting point for someone on a tight (high school student sized) budget.
#13
Superman theme is to Indiana Jones theme as Jar Jars theme is to the Ewok Theme :)
Whoo say that 3 times fast.
Ben
04/21/2002 (11:29 am)
Do you know of a Mac equal for Giga? Im cursed on being on a platform that gets gipped by every software company known to man.Superman theme is to Indiana Jones theme as Jar Jars theme is to the Ewok Theme :)
Whoo say that 3 times fast.
Ben
#14
You need to check out Steinberg's HALion VST sampler. I can't say if its able to jump through all the hoops Gigastudio can, but its certainly better than nothing. You'll need a VST host (like Cubase) to run it, so it won't be cheap to get yourself going - but then again quality never comes easy :) . I don't have any firsthand knowledge to share on Cubase or HALion, but you should check out:
Steinberg's HALion website
...and browse around there to learn about Cubase (Steinberg makes both Cubase and HALion) and all the stuff you can get for it etc etc. There are a ton of cool VST instruments out there (like Spectrasonics' forthcoming Stylus, Atmosphere, and Trilogy)... so you have plenty of options should you decide to go that route.
I hope that gives you an idea of some of the options available to you.
04/22/2002 (1:04 am)
Ben- I'm a PC user myself, but don't despair :) Macs are actually regularly used in music production from what I hear. And there is at least one solution to allow you to use Giga libraries (and other formats) on the Mac. You need to check out Steinberg's HALion VST sampler. I can't say if its able to jump through all the hoops Gigastudio can, but its certainly better than nothing. You'll need a VST host (like Cubase) to run it, so it won't be cheap to get yourself going - but then again quality never comes easy :) . I don't have any firsthand knowledge to share on Cubase or HALion, but you should check out:
Steinberg's HALion website
...and browse around there to learn about Cubase (Steinberg makes both Cubase and HALion) and all the stuff you can get for it etc etc. There are a ton of cool VST instruments out there (like Spectrasonics' forthcoming Stylus, Atmosphere, and Trilogy)... so you have plenty of options should you decide to go that route.
I hope that gives you an idea of some of the options available to you.
#15
I was reading in Mac Addict that Harry Con Jr. used G3's or G4's and Finale and some other apps to do some stuff for his own recording.
Thanks again!
Ben
04/22/2002 (2:48 pm)
Alright thanks a lot.I was reading in Mac Addict that Harry Con Jr. used G3's or G4's and Finale and some other apps to do some stuff for his own recording.
Thanks again!
Ben
James Hamar
I posted a few times here a while back and got some positive feedback from a few members, but it still didnt solve the problem. If there was only a way that we poor musicians could have a way to truly shine.....