Seriously ... what can be done without Source ?

#1 Well in comparisson to other products out there... Flash doesn't give you source, Game Maker doesn't give you source, in fact most engines out there don't give you source. Though we will still offer the source option.

In response to your specific concerns:

Re: Street Fighter 2 clone -

It's true that the most efficient way to make a game like this in TGB would be to modify the source. Then again thats true about any game with just about any engine. The source code will undoubtably run faster, that's why if you were to ask the most efficient way to make a game like this your answer would probably be to modify the source.

Is it impossible to do it without modifying the source? The answer is a definate no. As you mentioned you could make the character up of multiple parts. One of the easiest ways would be to put "hit boxes" around your character where the character's attacks will end up (or traverse) and then when you attack you can do a cast collision on those hitboxes. You can even do different cast collisions on different frames of your animation.

The other alternative, a little less efficient and elegant, would be to use the animation on frame change callback to change the collision poly. This wouldn't be that hard and would probably do the trick... in the end, even if it isn't that efficient, in a fighting game you typically only have two characters on screen at a time so I doubt the efficiency would be that much of an issue, if one at all.


Re: resources in the TGB community -

Yes some of the community resources are done modifying the source code. Why would you be surprised by this? On the other hand there are quite a bit of resources (especially snippets, tutorials, frameworks, etc) that don't modify the source code. This sounds like a redundant point to me though. Obviously there have been a resources and modifications posted to add to the source. In the end there probably has been more snippets, forum posts, and resources combined posted about modifying script.


I can understand your concern. I assure you that everyone at GG has thought this through and understands the issues presented. In the end you can acheive just about any game in TGB without having the source. If you find you need the source (and you've only purchased the binary - btw any current owner from the EA price will automatically have the full source license) then you can upgrade to it, or just buy it straight off.

The prices are to differentiate the different types of users approaching TGB. There is a huge market of users who do not want the source code and are affraid to touch it. There is a huge ammount of users like that currently in the TGB community. So instead of not giving those future users a cheaper option when we upgrade the price from EA to release price we are giving a cheaper option to those types of users. Again I'd like to reiterate that Flash and Gamemaker don't offer source and there are quite a few happy users using those engines. With TGB you will always have the option to upgrade to the source so if you decide later you want to expand the engine you still are not limited :)

P.S. I'd like to thank you for sharing your concerns with us, we appreciate it when people are up front and honest with what they feel. If you have any further questions/concerns feel free to post it on the forums (in here or another thread) or even drop me an e-mail mattl AT garagegames DOT com

Edit: spelling

#2 Ah, thank you. An up-front-and-to-the-point answer .... just the way I like them.
I will most likely be purchasing the engine anyways with or without those answers ... the source code might not be available and defeating some of my design but in the end that just means I can make one of the games that I CAN complete with tools given and upgrade later as you pointed out and I had thought myself.

But I do have to laugh at the idea of Flash as a game engine ... and give a nod to the notion. I have played several really fun little games out there using Flash and I know for fact the Source code is not available ... so a game specific engine should be captial for my immediate needs.

My thanks again.

#3 While Flash was not created as a game engine, there are a number of serious developers using it as just that, and doing very well.

I can understand your concern with not having the source and wondering if it is possible to make a number of different types of games, and as Matt notes, some things will be much more elegant in the native C++ environment. But a huge amount can be done without touching the source.

For example, I am currently writing up a RPG tutorial which uses pre-rendered backgrounds (and foregrounds), 3D models, a simple combat, inventory, and conversation interface (extremely basic as it is an introductory tutorial). It is completely written using stock TGB without any source modifications. All programming is in TorqueScript, which may be less elegant in terms of list management and such, but it is definitely doable.

#4 RPG np with TGB
Side scrollers, TGB's a perfect match
Shooter, ditto
Street fighter clone, again np, you can custom define your collision areas and all the above genre covers the content of a SF clone.

RTS, here we've hit a snag with script only, pathfinding needs to be moved to the source code.
I'm not talking calculating trivial paths in a RPG, that you can do np in Torque Script, i'm talking heavy pathing in a RTS style game with many units trying to get from point a to point b, mid path recalcs...etc.

hope this helps.

#5 What is not possible about making a RPG with the binary release? Is it the resource manipulation for advanced conversation trees or complex inventories or something like color manipulation of images in character creation? Since I'm working on a tutorial, I'd like to know what you found not possible.

#6 I think he meant "np = no problem"

#7 Ah, that would make sense. I took it as "np = not possible"

#8 TorqueScript can be very powerful weilded properly. I think a binary version is a good option for many games.

#9 David Blake, when can we expect the RPG Tutorial? Iam really really in need of this! :) Thank you!!!!

#10 I worked on it a little bit last night since my show is now in production. Unfortunately the commercials I contracted have been kicking my ass since it seems the cable company cannot read 99% of any type of media that you give them: DVD, MiniDV, Beta, raw AVI/MOV/MPEG-2 single and double pass/DV.

But hopefully soon (no promises, though). I've been working through the artwork layering right now to find a way to work effectively with collision hulls, backgrounds, and multiple levels of foreground so that you can run beneath trees and around the trunks and such. It's actually very easy to do but it is proving to be a pain to write about.

What are your specific needs? I'll see if anything that I've been playing with fits.

#11 Well honestly all except the illustration part since iam a art director but I suck at scripting.

#12 I'll see what I can put together this weekend if I have time.

EDIT:
No promises, though. I'm not sure what this weekend entails other than helping people move.

#13 Well I've been working on a little 2-player shooter/fighter for a couple months or so, and I've yet found the need to use the source. The only thing I *might* need to hack the source for is real-time networking. But to be honest, I don't even know if that will be necessary.

#14 I'd like to comment on this.

After playing with TGB for ~15 days, I've found the scripting pretty versitle. It's not like scripting from most games we've seen/played. It's msot simular to Doom 3 scripting as in you can pretty much to everything in scripting (for those who don't know about Doom 3 scripting, all the weapons, gui's, material's, sound shaders, level scripts & AI was done in scripting). Maybe not as efficiently as code, but scripting requires no (sometimes) expensive compiler, and a lot can be done.