A Semi-Rant on Attitudes and Creativity
by Tim "Zear" Hammock · in General Discussion · 04/12/2002 (12:37 pm) · 35 replies
Caution: Elements of rant may be present.
A Semi-Rant on Attitudes and Creativity
OK, this probably qualifies as a rant. So be it. But keep in mind that I do not intend to single anyone out, but rather to comment on trends and the attitudes of those who post in these forums and work with the Torque engine. I have the highest regard for the vast majority of those who are here. Thank you in advance for your patience with my frustration. I'm usually a very laid back and tolerant person (really). This may be a bit wordy, but I am trying to be clear.
I have been posting and/or lurking in these forums from nearly the beginning. I have noticed some trends lately that disturb me.
In my humble opinion the process of creating a game is primarily a creative one. Sure, coding is quite technical, but in my experience programming is at heart a creative endeavor. And obviously, so are conceptualization, design, artwork, and game balancing. If it was a science, game development schools would have more clout than they currently seem to have, because learning to create a game would be less an art and more a formula. As we all (should) know, there is no simple formula for a successful game. Thus a large part of the process is subjective, and subjectivity breeds opinions. Everyone has them - including me. At the same time, one needs to be professional.
I'll start with feature development. There are many talented programmers here. I have seen some amazing feature enhancements seemingly sprout from nowhere, and I look forward to seeing just where it will all go. It is exciting. The GarageGames staff has done their part, and has also rightly asked the community to take on much of the feature enhancement for this engine. It makes sense, because those four overworked guys simply cannot produce all the requested features in the timeframe people want or expect. So here is the first rant-ish part of my little essay.
There are four ways to classify posters here relative to the topic of feature development. The first two groups are those who cannot or will not make changes and are happy to wait patiently for others to do so, and those who can, will, and are making changes to the engine (and who should be lauded for their tendency to share freely). These two groups I have no trouble with. I myself try to fit more or less into either of these groups, as my own technical abilities allow.
The other two groups bother me however. These groups are those who cannot or will not make changes but clamor incessantly for others to do so, and those who can make changes, but choose to belittle those who ask for help or code. Of these latter two categories, it is the last that makes me most mad.
To those who are impatiently asking for others to do the grunt coding work: Be patient. In essence, you are owed nothing. I realize there are features that you need, and because you are not programmatically inclined, you do need someone else to implement those features. However, the other people here are not required to provide that for you. Most of them are here out of love for the idea of making games. Many are perfectly willing to implement any feature they see as worthwhile and within their reach as programmers. Some even have a tendency to try to do everything for everyone. But programming is as much art as science, and when you dive into a new code base, there is much to learn. It takes a great investment of time, interest, and determination to produce any new significant feature.
If you push others in an attempt to get your pet feature, you may find that you are the last person they are willing to help. I do technical support for a living. I recently saw a great illustration of what this pushing and clamoring looks like from the point of view of the people you are haranguing. To quote, "If you cannot resolve this for me pass me on to someone else before I become belligerant [sic]." Becoming belligerent, complaining and whining are not (in my opinion) socially acceptable ways of getting the results you desire. Regardless of what the Torque EULA says (and I don't think it really matters anyway for this purpose), when you purchase Torque, you get it as-is.
I am confident that the GarageGames staff has every intention of fully supporting every feature the engine currently is said to have (that is not intended as a jab, some features still need work), and of providing every feature that is broadly useful within reason and the constraints of time and practicality. I am also confident that many members here would be perfectly willing to provide help, code and guidance to nearly anyone who asks. The keys are patience, politeness, and a willingness to accept that some features are not and may never be available unless you implement them yourself. You can bump your thread, but try not to be overly insistent. Speak clearly, courteously, and with a friendly tone. Offer any help you can and explain any research you have done. You have done some research on the topic before asking, haven't you? Others will return the favor.
To those who are able to make changes, but are unwilling to interact on a polite level with those who cannot: Show some maturity toward our technically hamstrung associates. To an extent, I do understand their frustration. There have been features I have tried to implement and I found that I lacked the technical skills to finish the feature. There have been times when I would gladly throttle someone if I thought it would get me the feature I wanted. To some extent, the engine is represented as an engine that is simply in need of content. I also sympathize with your plight as a programmer. I have seen many new members introduce themselves to the community by demanding something in an unreasonable manner. The demand was not necessarily unreasonable - the approach was. I know that is hard to take with equanimity.
My advice is this: read these requests carefully. Give yourself some time to consider before replying. Try to understand their request for what it is. Do not dismiss them out of hand based only on the tone of their post. Do not dismiss the idea simply because you think it is a stupid idea. If you reasonably can point them to a resource that will set them along the correct path, do so politely.
If you are interested in their idea, state that you are, but be frank and honest about when or even whether you intend to work on it - set their expectations of what you intend to do. Do try to help when practical. And when they ask for something unreasonable, let them know. Let them know in a friendly and informative manner. Explain why you believe the idea is impractical, but make it clear that someone else may be willing to try anyway. Your response can greatly affect the tone of the discussion. And you become a role model that may influence them the next time they are looking for help.
Keep in mind that everyone has a different idea of what a game should be. Even if you think it is a dumb idea, try to encourage the creativity behind it. Offer positive suggestions, but respect their vision, no matter how flawed it may seem. Personally, I consider the works of Dali to be freakish and hard to relate to. I would be unlikely to create or buy art in that style. But I cannot refute the fact that Dali's work has garnered acclaim, or the fact that it sells for astronomical amounts of money (when the owners can be convinced to sell it at all).
It is always possible that someone else's twisted concept will be embraced by some segment of the public. Lots of great innovations have grown from harebrained ideas. Try not to rain on other poeple's parades. Maybe you can offer a suggestion on how to spin an idea into something more generally appealing or practical. In that way you can help the person realize their ideas and avoid squashing the creativity behind those ideas. We need more creative applications for the Torque engine, right?
The next topic is closely related: Opinions on what is proper and our assumptions about the goals of others. Here is a concept that has spawned several ugly threads: MMORPG. You know the threads I'm referring to. These threads invariably contain posts detailing why Torque is not suited to the task, why a startup company would never be able to break into this arena due to resource and money issues, and why this genre is about to be flooded by big companies we could never compete with. I'm using this as an example. Another might be the thread where someone points out that a particular character concept sketch would be impractical due to the poly count the resulting model would have.
Again, try not to squash ideas. In the back of your mind, tell yourself that this impractical idea is most likely a learning situation for the person with the idea, and that until they learn the cold hard facts for themselves, they are unlikely to learn the lesson at all. We all have to take a hard fall or two before we can ride a bicycle competently. Then proceed to offer any constructive guidance you can. Emphasize what is possible, instead of what isn't. Maybe the concept is being presented as just that: a concept. The person with the idea may be fully aware that they will have to compromise on the details.
If the person wants to make a MMORPG with the Torque engine, don't talk about what a bad idea it is. Maybe it isn't a bad idea at all - you never know what great new idea they might have. Talk about ways they might manage to achieve the goal, even if it requires compromise in the scope of the resulting product. If the character sketch is impossibly detailed, point that out in passing, but immediately offer ways to reduce the poly count without ruining the look. Be practical, but supportive. Many projects are never finished, and I am sure this will hold true with Torque games as well. It is only by inspiration and intense desire that anything great will be created. We need as much of that as we can draw here to GarageGames, even if much of it is misdirected. People will learn with experience what is realistically achievable (and what falls into that category may surprise you). If the learning experience was positive, they will move forward to better projects. On the other hand, if they feel ridiculed we may lose a valuable resource - a truly independent thinker.
When someone submits an idea for criticism, do not let preconceived notions trip you up. Initially, Orcs as good guys and Humans as bad guys seems a weird idea. Nevertheless, it may be a great concept. We all have ideas about how things should be, even in scenarios that never have or will happen. Why wouldn't an elf use a war hammer? Is a sci-fi concept doomed to failure because it has no flying vehicles or energy weapons? Have you ever met an elf, or been to the future? Surely the inherent inaccuracies of myth and the ideas of futurists leave room for significant variation, don't they? I shudder to think that the real future will resemble most visions found in science fiction. Let yourself go a bit. You might like where it takes you.
Last topic: Support and FAQs. This too is related to the above issues. We often see people asking for help on a particular topic. Mostly it is the same dozen or so questions. The temptation is to tell them to RTFM and leave it at that.
As someone who does technical support for a living, I like to think I have a good perspective on this issue. I hope so anyway. Support documents and FAQs work very well, but only if the user knows they exist and where to find them. GarageGames has done a great job of providing a place for these resources, but it doesn't really matter for many new members because they are not fully aware of the resources at hand. And those resources are of limited use unless someone contributes, updates, and edits them. That someone is every one of us here.
When someone asks that same old question for the millionth time, be patient. Give them a pointer to the resource they need. Then drop a line explaining how to find other resources in the future. It really does work. Try not to be blunt or rude. Try not to belittle them for not knowing better. We can build a reputation as open and helpful (instead of cryptic and cliquish) - and that reputation will go a long way toward putting this site and the Torque engine in the limelight where it belongs.
If someone asks a question, and there is no resource yet, add one. Even if it is primitive and primarily states 'known issue - no solution yet' it will be helpful. That way, there will be somewhere to point when the issue comes up again. Be familiar with the resources and issues that are documented. This will not only make it easy to help new users, but it will help you to more fully understand the complexities of Torque development. If you see a document that you can contribute useful information to, do it.
I currently count a total of seven FAQs. That is a good start, but do not wait for GarageGames to update those we have and provide new ones. Take the initiative and do it yourself. I have seen endless references to other threads for help (bravo!) - maybe we should try to gather the salient points of those threads into documents and FAQs. Even if GarageGames intends to maintain the entire forum content indefinitely (and face it, that will eventually be impractical), it is already becoming difficult to find those gems buried in just the threads we have now. There are hundreds (thousands?) of us, and only four guys at GarageGames. Think about it.
========================================
OK. If you have read this far, I am impressed. I know just how long-winded I can be. Nevertheless, let me summarize:
Politeness, helpfulness and a willingness to share may be awfully touchy-feely for some of us, but they go a long way toward building a successful community. And it is the successful community that will breed success for Torque and all of our own pet projects. New users who are to some degree ignorant and needy are important as well. Try to encourage them at every opportunity. To use what is now probably cliché, 'Pay it forward'. Contribute what new content you can, and gather the kernels of wisdom in one place if you can't.
The above concepts outline how I try to behave in any public forum. I won't claim to always be the best netizen - I'm not. Call me out when I fail. I do invite comment, whether it is constructive criticism or flame. I'm a big boy.
Thank you. I have and will continue to enjoy being in the company of those here who shine so brightly. May your game kick arse, and more importantly, may you find success, inspiration, and contentment in all you do.
Rant over,
Tim 'Zear' Hammock
[Edit: OMG. I just printed this out to proofread it. 4˝ pages. Now I am really impressed you are still reading...]
A Semi-Rant on Attitudes and Creativity
OK, this probably qualifies as a rant. So be it. But keep in mind that I do not intend to single anyone out, but rather to comment on trends and the attitudes of those who post in these forums and work with the Torque engine. I have the highest regard for the vast majority of those who are here. Thank you in advance for your patience with my frustration. I'm usually a very laid back and tolerant person (really). This may be a bit wordy, but I am trying to be clear.
I have been posting and/or lurking in these forums from nearly the beginning. I have noticed some trends lately that disturb me.
In my humble opinion the process of creating a game is primarily a creative one. Sure, coding is quite technical, but in my experience programming is at heart a creative endeavor. And obviously, so are conceptualization, design, artwork, and game balancing. If it was a science, game development schools would have more clout than they currently seem to have, because learning to create a game would be less an art and more a formula. As we all (should) know, there is no simple formula for a successful game. Thus a large part of the process is subjective, and subjectivity breeds opinions. Everyone has them - including me. At the same time, one needs to be professional.
I'll start with feature development. There are many talented programmers here. I have seen some amazing feature enhancements seemingly sprout from nowhere, and I look forward to seeing just where it will all go. It is exciting. The GarageGames staff has done their part, and has also rightly asked the community to take on much of the feature enhancement for this engine. It makes sense, because those four overworked guys simply cannot produce all the requested features in the timeframe people want or expect. So here is the first rant-ish part of my little essay.
There are four ways to classify posters here relative to the topic of feature development. The first two groups are those who cannot or will not make changes and are happy to wait patiently for others to do so, and those who can, will, and are making changes to the engine (and who should be lauded for their tendency to share freely). These two groups I have no trouble with. I myself try to fit more or less into either of these groups, as my own technical abilities allow.
The other two groups bother me however. These groups are those who cannot or will not make changes but clamor incessantly for others to do so, and those who can make changes, but choose to belittle those who ask for help or code. Of these latter two categories, it is the last that makes me most mad.
To those who are impatiently asking for others to do the grunt coding work: Be patient. In essence, you are owed nothing. I realize there are features that you need, and because you are not programmatically inclined, you do need someone else to implement those features. However, the other people here are not required to provide that for you. Most of them are here out of love for the idea of making games. Many are perfectly willing to implement any feature they see as worthwhile and within their reach as programmers. Some even have a tendency to try to do everything for everyone. But programming is as much art as science, and when you dive into a new code base, there is much to learn. It takes a great investment of time, interest, and determination to produce any new significant feature.
If you push others in an attempt to get your pet feature, you may find that you are the last person they are willing to help. I do technical support for a living. I recently saw a great illustration of what this pushing and clamoring looks like from the point of view of the people you are haranguing. To quote, "If you cannot resolve this for me pass me on to someone else before I become belligerant [sic]." Becoming belligerent, complaining and whining are not (in my opinion) socially acceptable ways of getting the results you desire. Regardless of what the Torque EULA says (and I don't think it really matters anyway for this purpose), when you purchase Torque, you get it as-is.
I am confident that the GarageGames staff has every intention of fully supporting every feature the engine currently is said to have (that is not intended as a jab, some features still need work), and of providing every feature that is broadly useful within reason and the constraints of time and practicality. I am also confident that many members here would be perfectly willing to provide help, code and guidance to nearly anyone who asks. The keys are patience, politeness, and a willingness to accept that some features are not and may never be available unless you implement them yourself. You can bump your thread, but try not to be overly insistent. Speak clearly, courteously, and with a friendly tone. Offer any help you can and explain any research you have done. You have done some research on the topic before asking, haven't you? Others will return the favor.
To those who are able to make changes, but are unwilling to interact on a polite level with those who cannot: Show some maturity toward our technically hamstrung associates. To an extent, I do understand their frustration. There have been features I have tried to implement and I found that I lacked the technical skills to finish the feature. There have been times when I would gladly throttle someone if I thought it would get me the feature I wanted. To some extent, the engine is represented as an engine that is simply in need of content. I also sympathize with your plight as a programmer. I have seen many new members introduce themselves to the community by demanding something in an unreasonable manner. The demand was not necessarily unreasonable - the approach was. I know that is hard to take with equanimity.
My advice is this: read these requests carefully. Give yourself some time to consider before replying. Try to understand their request for what it is. Do not dismiss them out of hand based only on the tone of their post. Do not dismiss the idea simply because you think it is a stupid idea. If you reasonably can point them to a resource that will set them along the correct path, do so politely.
If you are interested in their idea, state that you are, but be frank and honest about when or even whether you intend to work on it - set their expectations of what you intend to do. Do try to help when practical. And when they ask for something unreasonable, let them know. Let them know in a friendly and informative manner. Explain why you believe the idea is impractical, but make it clear that someone else may be willing to try anyway. Your response can greatly affect the tone of the discussion. And you become a role model that may influence them the next time they are looking for help.
Keep in mind that everyone has a different idea of what a game should be. Even if you think it is a dumb idea, try to encourage the creativity behind it. Offer positive suggestions, but respect their vision, no matter how flawed it may seem. Personally, I consider the works of Dali to be freakish and hard to relate to. I would be unlikely to create or buy art in that style. But I cannot refute the fact that Dali's work has garnered acclaim, or the fact that it sells for astronomical amounts of money (when the owners can be convinced to sell it at all).
It is always possible that someone else's twisted concept will be embraced by some segment of the public. Lots of great innovations have grown from harebrained ideas. Try not to rain on other poeple's parades. Maybe you can offer a suggestion on how to spin an idea into something more generally appealing or practical. In that way you can help the person realize their ideas and avoid squashing the creativity behind those ideas. We need more creative applications for the Torque engine, right?
The next topic is closely related: Opinions on what is proper and our assumptions about the goals of others. Here is a concept that has spawned several ugly threads: MMORPG. You know the threads I'm referring to. These threads invariably contain posts detailing why Torque is not suited to the task, why a startup company would never be able to break into this arena due to resource and money issues, and why this genre is about to be flooded by big companies we could never compete with. I'm using this as an example. Another might be the thread where someone points out that a particular character concept sketch would be impractical due to the poly count the resulting model would have.
Again, try not to squash ideas. In the back of your mind, tell yourself that this impractical idea is most likely a learning situation for the person with the idea, and that until they learn the cold hard facts for themselves, they are unlikely to learn the lesson at all. We all have to take a hard fall or two before we can ride a bicycle competently. Then proceed to offer any constructive guidance you can. Emphasize what is possible, instead of what isn't. Maybe the concept is being presented as just that: a concept. The person with the idea may be fully aware that they will have to compromise on the details.
If the person wants to make a MMORPG with the Torque engine, don't talk about what a bad idea it is. Maybe it isn't a bad idea at all - you never know what great new idea they might have. Talk about ways they might manage to achieve the goal, even if it requires compromise in the scope of the resulting product. If the character sketch is impossibly detailed, point that out in passing, but immediately offer ways to reduce the poly count without ruining the look. Be practical, but supportive. Many projects are never finished, and I am sure this will hold true with Torque games as well. It is only by inspiration and intense desire that anything great will be created. We need as much of that as we can draw here to GarageGames, even if much of it is misdirected. People will learn with experience what is realistically achievable (and what falls into that category may surprise you). If the learning experience was positive, they will move forward to better projects. On the other hand, if they feel ridiculed we may lose a valuable resource - a truly independent thinker.
When someone submits an idea for criticism, do not let preconceived notions trip you up. Initially, Orcs as good guys and Humans as bad guys seems a weird idea. Nevertheless, it may be a great concept. We all have ideas about how things should be, even in scenarios that never have or will happen. Why wouldn't an elf use a war hammer? Is a sci-fi concept doomed to failure because it has no flying vehicles or energy weapons? Have you ever met an elf, or been to the future? Surely the inherent inaccuracies of myth and the ideas of futurists leave room for significant variation, don't they? I shudder to think that the real future will resemble most visions found in science fiction. Let yourself go a bit. You might like where it takes you.
Last topic: Support and FAQs. This too is related to the above issues. We often see people asking for help on a particular topic. Mostly it is the same dozen or so questions. The temptation is to tell them to RTFM and leave it at that.
As someone who does technical support for a living, I like to think I have a good perspective on this issue. I hope so anyway. Support documents and FAQs work very well, but only if the user knows they exist and where to find them. GarageGames has done a great job of providing a place for these resources, but it doesn't really matter for many new members because they are not fully aware of the resources at hand. And those resources are of limited use unless someone contributes, updates, and edits them. That someone is every one of us here.
When someone asks that same old question for the millionth time, be patient. Give them a pointer to the resource they need. Then drop a line explaining how to find other resources in the future. It really does work. Try not to be blunt or rude. Try not to belittle them for not knowing better. We can build a reputation as open and helpful (instead of cryptic and cliquish) - and that reputation will go a long way toward putting this site and the Torque engine in the limelight where it belongs.
If someone asks a question, and there is no resource yet, add one. Even if it is primitive and primarily states 'known issue - no solution yet' it will be helpful. That way, there will be somewhere to point when the issue comes up again. Be familiar with the resources and issues that are documented. This will not only make it easy to help new users, but it will help you to more fully understand the complexities of Torque development. If you see a document that you can contribute useful information to, do it.
I currently count a total of seven FAQs. That is a good start, but do not wait for GarageGames to update those we have and provide new ones. Take the initiative and do it yourself. I have seen endless references to other threads for help (bravo!) - maybe we should try to gather the salient points of those threads into documents and FAQs. Even if GarageGames intends to maintain the entire forum content indefinitely (and face it, that will eventually be impractical), it is already becoming difficult to find those gems buried in just the threads we have now. There are hundreds (thousands?) of us, and only four guys at GarageGames. Think about it.
========================================
OK. If you have read this far, I am impressed. I know just how long-winded I can be. Nevertheless, let me summarize:
Politeness, helpfulness and a willingness to share may be awfully touchy-feely for some of us, but they go a long way toward building a successful community. And it is the successful community that will breed success for Torque and all of our own pet projects. New users who are to some degree ignorant and needy are important as well. Try to encourage them at every opportunity. To use what is now probably cliché, 'Pay it forward'. Contribute what new content you can, and gather the kernels of wisdom in one place if you can't.
The above concepts outline how I try to behave in any public forum. I won't claim to always be the best netizen - I'm not. Call me out when I fail. I do invite comment, whether it is constructive criticism or flame. I'm a big boy.
Thank you. I have and will continue to enjoy being in the company of those here who shine so brightly. May your game kick arse, and more importantly, may you find success, inspiration, and contentment in all you do.
Rant over,
Tim 'Zear' Hammock
[Edit: OMG. I just printed this out to proofread it. 4˝ pages. Now I am really impressed you are still reading...]
#22
When I see people asking how to do something or asking for advice I usually try to help -- even if I think it's obvious or if it could be explained with just a little bit of research on their part. And yet there are other times when I just don't feel like helping -- every body has those days, heck, maybe I don't even know the answer.
One thing I know that is certain though. Everybody deserves respect, regardless of what somebody thinks of their self-worth, their attitudes, their looks, or their behavior.
Granted respect is a two way street, however the point is moot with regards to asking questions -- rude or not. Do teachers disrespect their pupils for asking questions? No, they do not. They lead them to the path of self discovery.
When someone asks a question you don't necessarily have to completely answer it. All you have to do is point them in the right direction.
04/12/2002 (11:04 pm)
I read the forums all the time and not once have I seen someone "beg" to have something done for them -- and maybe I missed those but I usually read every forum post. When I see people asking how to do something or asking for advice I usually try to help -- even if I think it's obvious or if it could be explained with just a little bit of research on their part. And yet there are other times when I just don't feel like helping -- every body has those days, heck, maybe I don't even know the answer.
One thing I know that is certain though. Everybody deserves respect, regardless of what somebody thinks of their self-worth, their attitudes, their looks, or their behavior.
Granted respect is a two way street, however the point is moot with regards to asking questions -- rude or not. Do teachers disrespect their pupils for asking questions? No, they do not. They lead them to the path of self discovery.
When someone asks a question you don't necessarily have to completely answer it. All you have to do is point them in the right direction.
#23
Heh, the few times I've seen that interaction in real life I've seen some teachers "go off" on the student. Rightfully so, but I guess that's where ignoring comes in.
Like I said before, I don't think ignoring posts that annoy you is very nice to the poster but when dealing with harassment you either ignore them or smack them back... and the latter usually isn't an option.
04/13/2002 (3:41 am)
Yeah, but teachers normally aren't faced with rude students.Heh, the few times I've seen that interaction in real life I've seen some teachers "go off" on the student. Rightfully so, but I guess that's where ignoring comes in.
Like I said before, I don't think ignoring posts that annoy you is very nice to the poster but when dealing with harassment you either ignore them or smack them back... and the latter usually isn't an option.
#24
)
I have noticed that many requests are made over and over because people haven't seen similar requests in the forum. So my idea is to ask GG to create a features request area. It would have a short form you would fill out describing your feature. Others could attach supporting requests.
When someone pops up looking for a feature they could be politely redirected to the request area to add their request using the form or to add their support to one that is already there.
Thoughts?
04/13/2002 (6:32 am)
Perhaps, as a group we could alleviate some of the rancor and also get a better feel for what people are looking for, if we were to organize an area where requests could be made and seconded (and thirded, and fourthed I have noticed that many requests are made over and over because people haven't seen similar requests in the forum. So my idea is to ask GG to create a features request area. It would have a short form you would fill out describing your feature. Others could attach supporting requests.
When someone pops up looking for a feature they could be politely redirected to the request area to add their request using the form or to add their support to one that is already there.
Thoughts?
#25
Teachers ALWAYS face rude students.
I dunno, it's a fine line, case by case, post by post.
IF you feel the need to "stomp" might be a good time to go get coffee and refrain from posting ;)
04/13/2002 (7:07 am)
Matt:Teachers ALWAYS face rude students.
I dunno, it's a fine line, case by case, post by post.
IF you feel the need to "stomp" might be a good time to go get coffee and refrain from posting ;)
#26
However... I have one or two thoughts, related or not to what was said...
Mainly 1) GG has a good thing going here, its a few guys with a mission, a plan, whatever... Basically they have a great plan here... Building a good game engine takes alot of time, resources and trouble, so how can you get more dev people for less money? you dont... You licence your in developement engine out for 100$ to people and now you have a pretty large community of people who are willing to do dev work for you in a sence, and who are also willing, if able, to pay *you* to do it... Very nice plan...
Overall however... You have to understand that there are gonna be alot of people here who have no respect. you know, I recall the internet from the begining, and it seems to me that the more popular its gotten, there have been many more good things come out of it, BUT there have also been MANY MANY bad things, like all the people out there who expect some one else to do stuff for them... People with 100$ who wanna "make thier own game" and who come in here posting demands for people to help and get mad when people dont... I would imagine that most large companies out there DONT talk about what games they have coming out for a reason...
Any way, I just woke up, so maybe that will make some sence, maybe it wont...
I suppose what I mean overall is that there are alot of people here and any where, that are not going to be very nice or fun to deal with... And, in making something as easy to access as this... Well you are inviting all kinds to come get involved... Joy...
Emo1313-
04/13/2002 (8:32 am)
... I dunno, as far as stuff with GG goes... But, we were sitting around talking about this the other day... I dont read a lot in the community, for anything, but I have to respect alot of what was said by Zear... I had been around in the T1 and T2 games quite a bit, tho I dont think we had ever really spoken about anything really... However... I have one or two thoughts, related or not to what was said...
Mainly 1) GG has a good thing going here, its a few guys with a mission, a plan, whatever... Basically they have a great plan here... Building a good game engine takes alot of time, resources and trouble, so how can you get more dev people for less money? you dont... You licence your in developement engine out for 100$ to people and now you have a pretty large community of people who are willing to do dev work for you in a sence, and who are also willing, if able, to pay *you* to do it... Very nice plan...
Overall however... You have to understand that there are gonna be alot of people here who have no respect. you know, I recall the internet from the begining, and it seems to me that the more popular its gotten, there have been many more good things come out of it, BUT there have also been MANY MANY bad things, like all the people out there who expect some one else to do stuff for them... People with 100$ who wanna "make thier own game" and who come in here posting demands for people to help and get mad when people dont... I would imagine that most large companies out there DONT talk about what games they have coming out for a reason...
Any way, I just woke up, so maybe that will make some sence, maybe it wont...
I suppose what I mean overall is that there are alot of people here and any where, that are not going to be very nice or fun to deal with... And, in making something as easy to access as this... Well you are inviting all kinds to come get involved... Joy...
Emo1313-
#27
Like I have always said, if someone wants a tutorial about a feature they are free to email me and I will look into writing it. No one has ever taken me up on this offer and I don't read every single post on the forums so I have not seen a want of people for new features. Sure I have my own project too but if someone wants a tutorial written for a feature and it is realistic (I'm not going to implement terrain paging for MMORPGs cause I don't know how too) then I will probably do it...as long as Im not too busy. The only reason I slacked up on tutorials (well not the only reason (read Dungeon Siege, Linux) but the main reason) was because I can not think of anything to write a tutorial on. The only tutorial I have pending at the moment is a step by step detailed description of the fps game but I'm not sure I'll finish that as it isn't really a coding issue but a lot of writing.
If anyone needs any help with little things then stop by the IRC channel. Not many people come in there (compared to the size of the community), if you stick around for more than 5 seconds to see if anyone is "awake" then you can probably get your questions answered.
So to conclude if you don't really have a programmer that is great and you need a halflife/maxpayne/a bunch of other fps games weapon switching code / gui then its your own fault if you do not ask.
-Tim aka Spock
04/13/2002 (2:41 pm)
On a happier note: :)Like I have always said, if someone wants a tutorial about a feature they are free to email me and I will look into writing it. No one has ever taken me up on this offer and I don't read every single post on the forums so I have not seen a want of people for new features. Sure I have my own project too but if someone wants a tutorial written for a feature and it is realistic (I'm not going to implement terrain paging for MMORPGs cause I don't know how too) then I will probably do it...as long as Im not too busy. The only reason I slacked up on tutorials (well not the only reason (read Dungeon Siege, Linux) but the main reason) was because I can not think of anything to write a tutorial on. The only tutorial I have pending at the moment is a step by step detailed description of the fps game but I'm not sure I'll finish that as it isn't really a coding issue but a lot of writing.
If anyone needs any help with little things then stop by the IRC channel. Not many people come in there (compared to the size of the community), if you stick around for more than 5 seconds to see if anyone is "awake" then you can probably get your questions answered.
So to conclude if you don't really have a programmer that is great and you need a halflife/maxpayne/a bunch of other fps games weapon switching code / gui then its your own fault if you do not ask.
-Tim aka Spock
#28
Hence my "or point them in the right direction" comment. Tolerance and encouragement are productive tools.
04/13/2002 (3:14 pm)
Quote:... but neither will one that doesn't get watered.
Hence my "or point them in the right direction" comment. Tolerance and encouragement are productive tools.
#29
Matt: I didn't have you in mind when I wrote this - it was someone else who set me off. I started a reply, which snowballed as I thought it through. So I wrote, edited, and revised for a couple hours.
I would like to politely disagree, however, on one point - I do not believe that it is rude to ignore a post. I often start a reply full of venom, only to finish writing it, revise, and then discard it and let it go. I do feel that the old saw is correct: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. I do agree that rude people must be corrected. I simply feel that matching that tone is not a constructive approach to the problem.
04/15/2002 (8:35 am)
Wow. I honestly didn't think this would get such a response! Thank you all for reading it.Matt: I didn't have you in mind when I wrote this - it was someone else who set me off. I started a reply, which snowballed as I thought it through. So I wrote, edited, and revised for a couple hours.
I would like to politely disagree, however, on one point - I do not believe that it is rude to ignore a post. I often start a reply full of venom, only to finish writing it, revise, and then discard it and let it go. I do feel that the old saw is correct: If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all. I do agree that rude people must be corrected. I simply feel that matching that tone is not a constructive approach to the problem.
#30
A flame is much worse than ignoring.
Heh, well either way. I'll try to be a bit nicer to some of the more annoying people. Even if you didn't have me in mind, I guess me acknowledging it is a sign that I kind of see myself in a similar situation.
04/15/2002 (10:00 am)
Heh, I gotta agree.A flame is much worse than ignoring.
Heh, well either way. I'll try to be a bit nicer to some of the more annoying people. Even if you didn't have me in mind, I guess me acknowledging it is a sign that I kind of see myself in a similar situation.
#31
Something I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread is how difficult it is to interpret text messages. The "tone" of a textual conversation is sometimes impossible to ascertain when you can't hear the inflections in the voice or see the expressions on the author's face. Your personal mood or attitude can too often cloud your interpretation of the text as you read it.
Over the past year of working at 21-6, which uses text (email, chats, forums, etc) as a primary communication medium, I have learned an incredibly valuable lesson: give the author the benefit of the doubt. In other words, assume the author means well and is honestly trying to express something meaningful regardless if the message comes across annoying or nasty. More often than not, this attitude towards text communication results in a pleasant and useful experience.
Keep it up guys, this place just keeps getting better!
Justin Mette
21-6 Productions
04/15/2002 (11:05 am)
This is a great discussion and I hope even more people read it. It's healthy for the community as a whole to vent as well as strive to achieve some harmony. There are an incredible amount of people visiting and participating in these forums and it can be overwhelming to newcomers and veterans alike.Something I haven't seen mentioned yet in this thread is how difficult it is to interpret text messages. The "tone" of a textual conversation is sometimes impossible to ascertain when you can't hear the inflections in the voice or see the expressions on the author's face. Your personal mood or attitude can too often cloud your interpretation of the text as you read it.
Over the past year of working at 21-6, which uses text (email, chats, forums, etc) as a primary communication medium, I have learned an incredibly valuable lesson: give the author the benefit of the doubt. In other words, assume the author means well and is honestly trying to express something meaningful regardless if the message comes across annoying or nasty. More often than not, this attitude towards text communication results in a pleasant and useful experience.
Keep it up guys, this place just keeps getting better!
Justin Mette
21-6 Productions
#32
i smiled when i read about posting 'venom' and then discarding it before actually posting. i do that quite a bit, with spam too :)
04/15/2002 (11:51 am)
justin, you just expressed the golden rule of forums. a lot of what gets people riled up was not intended to be offensive at all. i do exactly what you do, i just assume the author meant well, and it goes a long way.i smiled when i read about posting 'venom' and then discarding it before actually posting. i do that quite a bit, with spam too :)
#33
It seems that most people aren't aware of this. I find that using emotes will break this barrier most of the time. >:(
:)
-Jeff
04/15/2002 (12:25 pm)
@Justin:It seems that most people aren't aware of this. I find that using emotes will break this barrier most of the time. >:(
:)
-Jeff
#34
I find another problem is that some people who come around to the forums don't speak english as a primary language which makes communication via the internet a challenge.
Alc
04/15/2002 (6:31 pm)
I find that it also pays off to word what you say carefully and try to think about how what you say could be interpreted. There are some things that you will say casually to friends but would come across as rude to other people, just because slang differs between different areas. I find another problem is that some people who come around to the forums don't speak english as a primary language which makes communication via the internet a challenge.
Alc
#35
I also am confused about how I missed this thread for three days straight... :( (I always at least glance through the new threads every day, and answer those that are unanswered and I am able to answer)
The only thing not mentioned here, are the posts that ask the same question that HAS been answered already, probably four times, but the poster was simply too lazy to search the forums or read a FAQ. If they dont even have enough drive to look for answeres in the resource section and by searching the forums, I am not sure if it is worth some one's time to help them. That's just my personal philosophy, you guys can feel free to think and do otherwise. :)
04/16/2002 (7:34 am)
I agree with everything you guys have been saying.I also am confused about how I missed this thread for three days straight... :( (I always at least glance through the new threads every day, and answer those that are unanswered and I am able to answer)
The only thing not mentioned here, are the posts that ask the same question that HAS been answered already, probably four times, but the poster was simply too lazy to search the forums or read a FAQ. If they dont even have enough drive to look for answeres in the resource section and by searching the forums, I am not sure if it is worth some one's time to help them. That's just my personal philosophy, you guys can feel free to think and do otherwise. :)
Torque Owner Matt W
Yes, a stomped flower won't grow... but neither will one that doesn't get watered.
Or am I wrong, and should everyone fend for themselves?