The problem with mmorpgs and story...

#101 Well said, Justin.

The problem stems from games being BUSINESSES. And it's in a business's best interest to make sure their customers are happy. And they fear that a "Dood" that's just been pwned by the Ice Wizard and has lost his level 56 charater to permadeath is going to cancel their subscription. And some players have said as much- even right here in this thread-

But I disagree. I think they WILL continue to play if you do things right. Meaning:

Don't play permadeath as just loss of your character- there are a hundred and one ways to achieve the results that permadeath brings that still allow for players to keep their characters.

Give missions that have an effect on the world.

Have NPCs with a purpose other than to stand around and direct players.

Reward those who "roleplay" but have tasks that a person can log on and complete arcade style.



And here is something that is a real pet peeve of mine- Allow for people's stuff to be destroyed. I hate that a player can have a house full of stuff and never has to worry about his town being raided and his stuff destroyed. And yet you have players complaining that they spent so much time working to build this or gain that- It's a game and you cannot inspire people to action if they have nothing to lose.

#102

Quote:
...you need to be taking orders from players, since players can lie, cheat and steal. or, players can be heroic and genuine...
...an npc is incapable of this duality...

Let's see, what will my NPCs do? If you can do it, they can do it! In fact, you may as well love them more since they happen to know more than you do and can be a source for knowledge as well as providing their services and "news" on whatever happenings they've encountered...

"Hey pal! Psst!"
"hi there friend, what's the news?"
"I hear a small band of misfits are headed to some warlock's tower to...Hey! You look like you could use a new shield! One of them buggers were brandishing a nice, flashy lookin' body shield..."
"About the..."
"That shield there...had one of them fire emblems on it like you got on your arm there."
"Really?!"
"Aye, they followed that road there, was headed southwest me thinks."
"Thanks!!!"

...moments later...
"Aahh! Where'd my House Key go?!"
- Gasp! - "That thief!"

Seamless. That's the objective to my design, with more options than a DM could offer or a PC can utilize. Not to mention the play-evolved story or the fully manipulatable items, objects, and, well, everything!

Numbers? Nope, no numbers here really, just actual situations involving player skill and character skill, knowledge and wisdom, and good ol' trial and error.

Death? You might die, if you get WAAAAY in over your head, otherwise you may just have to rescue your character once you've assumed the role of one of your lineage.

What do you want to do, anyways? Maybe...

- Climb a tree and pick some fruit for your journey?
- Climb a mountain, tame a Roc, and fly down on your enemies?
- Invent a magical incantation to rid a town of a horrendous disease?
- Invent a horrendous disease?!

Just make sure you know who's side you're on and don't aggrevate the Gods!

Maybe, just maybe, you can recover one of the inately-magical body parts of the long lost king!

Just outside time, place and comprehension lies Infinity.

- Ronixus

#103 I like your enthusiasm! Realistically an mmo of any genre is greatly social. Raids, character leveling, following plot lines or making decisions just don't have the oomph without someone to either share it with or show it off too. So there is or needs to be social choices in many of the successful mmorpgs lack. Ones that integrate into the community and offer some real impact. In game weddings, parties, social gatherings like festivals and so on are really starting to appear more often in mmo's and with great popularity and this could be expanded on. The bottom line though is resources, even with the bigger companies, there are just not enough developers to go around and huge game worlds like WOW or even Guild Wars really suffer from lack of immersion on a social level. Even the most simple of things, like being able to speak to your party members (via voice) can really make a huge impact on gameplay immersion.

I have some great ideas for much of this, but it would require some newer game server models and a lot of development. Many of your ideas are things I'm developing for Neophagia and am hopefully going to be able to recruit enough indies to make it affordable and fun. Otherwise, it's just ideas on paper, hmm i could just as easily write a book :)

#104 Ok I had to skip about 2 months of replies to get down to the post box but i wanted to reply to shiraz's reply to me earlier....

I like how you talked about the ??dynamic-ness?? of the low levs begging high levs to waste the high lev npc(boar) ... I would also like it to be possible for npc animals to become endangered or extinct. can you imagine trying to sneak past a group of level 70 environmentalists to kill the last bunny wabbit. lol.

Run Rabbit Run,
Neurosys

#105 I also wanted to reply to kimmys post about :

"Allow for people's stuff to be destroyed. I hate that a player can have a house full of stuff and never has to worry about his town being raided and his stuff destroyed. And yet you have players complaining that they spent so much time working to build this or gain that- It's a game and you cannot inspire people to action if they have nothing to lose."


You know what pissed me off the most in WoW when I first started? I used to play D&D and when I made my first char I made a rogue. I finally found out.. I CANT STEAL ANYTHING.. OMFG IM A FRICKIN ROGUE WHO CANT ROB YOU.. wtf.

Two games I loved were Oblivion and Theif(1 and 2) cuz you dont need to really go questing... just kill a hobo use his pocket change to buy a lockpick and do some home invasion!! w00t! I am thinking about making land ownership and housing a part of my mmo/metaverse and perhaps noobs would be homeless when they joined but then gather wealth and become a part of the town.. perhaps I could start the world as a tiny settlement and then when we have 50,000 users it would be a thriving metropolis :) then the murderers and theives could really have some fun.

#106 Neurosys -

So, you like thievery? Imagine this for a moment...

You're wandering through a store or a public marketplace, casually stalking your next 'prize' when you spot a sweet piece of 'item-X' you just can't pass up. Do you:

A) Take a chance at stealing 'item-X' by using a numerics based skill that gives you a X in Y chance to steal it then allows you a chance to escape capture from X number of spawned guards, etc, not to mention the X possibility of being captured due to lag, etc. and hope you make it out alive and in tact...(other games)

B) Enter into 'Thief Mode' where you -
- Scan the area, confirming all threats, traps, exits, players, and other relative environment variables...
- Choose your target 'object' to steal...
- Choose and plot your 'objective' from start to finish, including your approach(s), method(s) of thievery, escape(s) (as well as pre-calculating evasive maneuvers), and exit(s)...
...Where, upon initialization you, fluently, wander aimlessly within grasp of the target, steal it flawlessly and without making a sound, and simply walk out without even being questioned -OR- upon getting caught in the act (by a nearby guard or shopkeep who just happened to see the event) you, based upon your escape route, dodge the guard/shopkeep, leap over a nearby shop table (obstructing your persuer), dodge past another guard (who was covering your original exit), and leap in/out of a side window, and finally 'exit' the area by hiding in a nearby tree untill the coast is clear or you are forced to take further evasive maneuvers.

Just to give you an idea of how my gameplay works...once I'm finished, of course! Now, it seems like I'll have to come up with a new name for it now that someone else is using it, hmmm.....
~ Ronixus

#107

Quote: Choose and plot your 'objective' from start to finish, including your approach(s), method(s) of thievery, escape(s) (as well as pre-calculating evasive maneuvers), and exit(s)...

Design question: By the time a player is done plotting, will the situation have changed? How will that be handled?

Quote:-OR- upon getting caught in the act (by a nearby guard or shopkeep who just happened to see the event) you, based upon your escape route, dodge the guard/shopkeep, leap over a nearby shop table (obstructing your persuer), dodge past another guard (who was covering your original exit), and leap in/out of a side window, and finally 'exit' the area by hiding in a nearby tree untill the coast is clear or you are forced to take further evasive maneuvers.

Design question: What about vigilantes that you can't spot? Other thieves making for the same goal at the same time? Do they compete? Cooperate?

Not bad ideas, but there are those 1% scenarios that will happen about 100 times a day just because of the sheer volume of occurances, and so need to be treated as if they're just as likely as anything else to occur. Also, something to consider is that having "modes" means that someone is restricted from being a thief while not in that mode (or is he? you use of the word "mode" implies that he is). Freeform play, without modes, can allow for the thief to take advantage of small, quick to appear and disappear opportunities without the player taking even ten seconds to switch modes and plot the caper. The plotting tools could still be there, but be reserved for big or complicated jobs and the planning is otherwise done on a scratch pad on the player's desk.

Just a few thoughts.

#108 How the interface works:

Simply Right-click your target and select 'Steal - Enters Thievery Mode' from the list of options.
The screen then updates to show all elements of the gameplay area, highlighting threats, etc. Another selection box also appears, this time allowing your options and methods for completing your task...
- Approach (Browse, Sneak, or Bolt)
- Obtain (Snatch, Swipe, Swap (with object))
- Exit (Walk, Run, Evade, Kill)
...The inate AI then takes over (of course allowing for interruptions), walking the character through the theft and dealing with any encounters appropriately. Your character will 'behave' according to the situation, in realtime, and deal with any circumstances that arise, and everything will both be influenced by what the character has learned as well as what he or she may learn in the process.

This is how most 'AI Attentive' tasks are handled in-game. THERE IS NO TREADMILLING OR CHANCE-BASED OUTCOME! What can happen will happen, based on context, situation, environment, and attention.
The only thing that is a major influence is the will of the players and the AI - read as an expected outcome. That outcome changes depending on what happens en-route to that outcome. The sweetest part will be the interaction of players and AI in both cooperation and competition.

In this, EVERYONE becomes influential to the game AND the gameplay.
~ Ronixus

Why was it originally called Infinity - because it truely never ends, the persistance is uncanny!

#109

Quote:Simply Right-click your target and select 'Steal - Enters Thievery Mode' from the list of options.
The screen then updates to show all elements of the gameplay area, highlighting threats, etc. Another selection box also appears, this time allowing your options and methods for completing your task...
- Approach (Browse, Sneak, or Bolt)
- Obtain (Snatch, Swipe, Swap (with object))
- Exit (Walk, Run, Evade, Kill)

While the types of actions for obtaining objects seems reasonable, wouldn't it be better to have the approach and exit actions embedded in the usual gameplay? You can have the player be able to vary their travelling speed from sneaking to running, ala Splinter Cell. As well, the decision to evade or kill could be organic to gameplay: Evade being a result of a player's movement actions, and killing being a result of combat actions.

The presentation of the gameplay is as important as the features of the gameplay. If you throw too many options at the player, gameplay can be a lot less dynamic than the features were intended to make the game.

#110

Quote:
...wouldn't it be better to have the approach and exit actions embedded in the usual gameplay? You can have the player be able to vary their travelling speed from sneaking to running, ala Splinter Cell.

They are, in a way. What this system offers is a chance to do thing more precariously or run in and swipe something 'as the outcome.' For example, if a player wants, they can opt to just run into a crowded area, swipe something off a shelf or something, and keep going before anyone knows whats happened. In other cases, like being in a slow paced, browsable store, you can opt to browse around, like you're looking around and the AI will wait for an opportunity to make the steal, then just wander out, giving no hint of their actions.

Quote:
As well, the decision to evade or kill could be organic to gameplay: Evade being a result of a player's movement actions, and killing being a result of combat actions.

It is! Same with the above as well, IF an opportunity presents itself, the AI takes advantage of the situation. If, for instance, another player sees what's happening and the storekeep is oblivious (busy with a customer or something), and they decide to intervene, then the AI instantly will prepare for the possibility of combat while going ahead with evading capture. The AI, in effect, creates a state of awareness within the character. This awareness is apparent in everything that happens to that character - stealing, making things, performing simple to tough physical actions, spell casting, combat, you name it.

Now, an interresting factor in this is, how your character reacts depends on how you have played! If you're a thief of the shadows, always hiding and keeping distant, you'll probably be more successful sneaking around. If instead you are playing a ruthless, murdering thief, the option to kill might even come before the actual theft! You could be an exuberant, nimble thief who bounds in, makes the switch, and escapes without a trace!

What this does is make for an entirely flexible gameplay which applies appealingly to the players directly.

#111 There seems to be alot of interest in this idea and i like it i could only read the first few posts but yes it sounds like a ready-to-go game but heres my views:
1. the death system what you said is good about losing your items ect but what about if you die by getting your team mate out of the fight and alive and then you die from saving you i think that would count as a "heroic death" and the person who died would get premoted to a higher rank and maybe ghet some cool gear
2. i love that the player creates the situtuation and is basically incharge of the defence of the world and it makes the player feel like he is very important in the game and can be singled out from a crowd
3.some1 posted a idea that when you die the "fallen" gain your corpse as a troops, that may sound cool but that would be unbelivably hard considering you wouldnt just clone what the player looks like you would need him/ her to look lightly dead bits taken out of him and mutated or regrown cells on random places on each individual who dies

those are my views but this game idea is very good and if you are going to go through with it i would love to be involved as im quite capable of making maps and am learning coding so pm me or email me if you want me:D

#112 Death... comes in many forms in mmorpgs... but all of them are the same in the end... die lose exp... die lose item durability... die lose gold... even wow's death system was crap in the end. Lose durability, walk up to ur corpse and select ressurect.... boring and irritating if u hv to walk a long way. PD is a good idea if ur game doesnt hv lvling and gear etc. etc. (like wow, etc.)... however PD is still gonna turn ppl against ur game. Try to make quests more invovled... make quests liek gta missions :/... whr if u die ur gone from the quest, but put some reward reward if u die in a heroic way... like a quest requires you to claim back some territory from the fallen and a player suicide charges at the more powerful foes with a couple of explosives... he's out for the rest of the mission but for his 'sacrfice' he'll gain honour and get promoted. But if someone lets his mates die and chickens out and gets killled while running away... it's obvious wht he should get. In this game its a good idea to adopt the bioshock/system shock cloning system. After ur cloned ur weakened severely for a while and do badly in combat. And for each clone made the player loses honor/reputation... this will encourage a player to play more heroicly in battle also. Though this shouldnt encourage players to do 'gay' heroic things for a little bonus honor. Also clones should be comparatively weaker... they should have slightly lowered stats and due to 'memory loss' they should also forget some skills and abilities. I'll probably elaborate on it more l8er.

For more fantasy style mmorpg... death shouldn't be too strict cuz of the lvling and gold hunting. But in these kind of mmorpgs the involvement of guilds and unions should be made greater. The game should be based in a free world like oblivions. Players can pretty much do anything they want. Kill guards, raid innocent towns, murder innocent ppl. Players can also do the opposite. Protect towns and ppl from murderers and thieves and get rewarded for it.
Guilds can be made more deep than a gathering of players in a big party. They should be able to adopt a route for their guild. E.g. make it evil or good or neutral or to serve a certain cause. Again like oblivion.

For eg you could make an evil guild like the dark brotherhood. You can recruit 'evil' players. You can establish hideouts. If ur rich you can give gear to new comers like the organisations in oblivion do. For eg. you can give ur new members a certain weapon, or equipment.
eg if u create the guild 'Order of the Silver Hand' (wc3... :P) you can give trustworthy member a special 'glove' equipment with holy enchantments, etc.
Guild masters and subordinates can assign quests to players. If not personally they can keep an npc to give quests.

And then guild vs guild conflict. Eg the OotSH can go against the DB, and hunt them out. They can raid their hideouts and destroy them. Also, unlike most games players can double agent. A member of the DB can go into the OotSH and get within its ranks. (A suspecting OotSH can also investigate the member and follow him, etc. spy on him and see if he is a traitor.) if the DB member succesfully infiltrates he can deliver secrets to his organisation and even backstab OothSH's members.

Here, i have a problem. I'm probably gonna keep lvling fast in the game and the max lvl abt 50. But i dunno abt the death system. I want death to be feared due to the betrayal/backstabbing system. But i dont want PD. Any suggestions :D?

#113 How about dying is like this- Provided the game is Sci-Fi, like it seemed to be from the first post, you are cloned at death. Do clones start by wearing the same clothes as you? NO. You only keep the items that were in the bank, and you have to go to a DNA bank every level because when you die you revert to the level you were last time you banked your DNA. If you don't use that, I will.

#114 That's exactly what we're doing in my sci-fi project.

Depending on the circumstances of a player's death, some of their gear may be recovered and returned to them (usually badly damaged). They can also buy insurance to cover some of the costs of replacement for unrecovered items.

(We're planning "evil clone" events, where a mishap in the cloning vats releases evil doppelgangers of players who have been cloned. The evil clones are intent on eliminating their doubles. Fortunately, they're easily recognized by their evil Star Trek goatees -- especially on the female avatars.)

Cloning doesn't need to be restricted to sci-fi, though. You could easily have your finger-wigglers whip up soulgems that store a piece of the player's soul, and which can be restored by shattering the gem.

#115 No Guts No Glory, I love the idea of a Hard Core Death in game and here is why. (and plan to make at least one mmo that uses it also)

Oh look 4000 level 80s Big ....freaking....deal.

Now look hard death, player is smart, we carefully code so they don't die during ld, but don't ld just to avoid dying, and Boom

1 player level 70, 3 level 50, and 2 level 4, 3000 level 20 and under, and OMG does that 70 (unless he cheated, cheated=deleteted) EARN AND DESERVE HIS GLORY.

You all want to OWN a game and MAKE A DIFFERENCE, ok so 2000 people on a server want personal story lines without ever dying or paying for anything? Fshshhh (sound of derision)

Look, I have eq and wow if I wanna play a campy fun comic style game. Big deal, Oh I died you took gear away? that makes me mad too, OR I just go earn it again, BIG DEAL.

There is a person who says Death gives life its value (by comparison) i highly disagree, However it can give us perspective and make us appreciate what Life really is.

However in a game where Raiding a dragon may lose a friend or a comrades toon/skills/exp, you suddenly don't get bored trying to go top level you get excited, or afraid.

And if its a Dynamic game, which it can be if it takes RISK to go someplace and do something, not everyone has done everything, meaning make a toon and try something new if old character dies.

Its not a matter of Do/Don't Do something, its How do you do/don't do something, Hard core Death? just fine, who cares if people who don't want to play a game don't play it, we don't need EVERY PERSON IN THE UNIVERSE to play our game, and Ok Go ahead give it a bad review... why cause your feelings were hurt? No because you EXPECT to live forever and get what 'YOU WANT' out of a game, Thats good.

However not everyone wants Repetitional boredom by being imperfect yet immortal.
Being mortal in the flesh as we are thats why somethings are exciting, pursuit of a goal.
And knowing we must overcome our limits and grow to achieve it, while following rules that are meant to keep us safe, I.E. don't solo the dragon you will die.

However GLORY!!,
Me and my 3 best best best friends took on a giant WOO neat and won! almost died all of us...whew that was awesome, and each time we do it its still a thrill!

But what about super science or magic, sure and if you want ressurection sure still impose a hard enough penalty and players will say, Yes I will do an ULTRA hard quest to bring back Sir Jevius Dippledorf my level 70 toon, BUT I could just start over.


Now here is what I plan for my MMO, but since I am a procrastinator I will just mention the idea, if you like it use it, if you use it, please make note of me :) so I get a little credit.

Player points, I make it to level 60 and die, ok I get 60 x 3 plus 20 x 2, the 20 x 2 is from the time played, 20 months or weeks etc.

Now I have 220 points, to build into a new character,

I called the MMO "Lineage" originally, but there was Lineage I didn't know about, so "Legacy"

Basically, you the player don't die and shouldn't suicide over a game, but if your toon dies, use those points and come back with them "thematically' did your toon have children, Great come back as the "well trained son of the fighter who has his fathers sword " (well trained 100 points, sword 50 points, horse 50 points) 20 to spend on spare details.

Oh look you made level 80 and became king, but were assasinated, 1000 points to spend, come back as court wizard, Avenging Knight, Oh it was an NPC assasin hired by a pc? great come back as the assasin and turn traitor on your employer,...

This creates a dynamic story Driveable by both GM and player, OR come back as a wizard in the far off land you never played in, and play there with your "staff of rreally neatness"

This gives players motivation to start INTO the world, and even while Uber they are mortal, but not "dismissable"

its a feed for personal glory in a world with mechanics to keep things recyclable and updatable.

Economy, Ok make it so they start out where you like, then do a little research on developement and give them the power to update and upgrade

If Country A discovers bows and arrows, country B is in trouble on a pvp server, if no pvp or assasinations at least make it so you want to evolve to fight off the Trolls who just learned to read.

So in a nutshell YES Hard core Death has its place, and SHOULD BELONG, Penalties tell you want NOT to do, and if you know its not real, if you can venture hard core then you can enjoy hard core.....Grow up take responsibility for our actions, face the threat and decide how much we want to risk.

And yeah sure the legacy effect is a cop out, I didn't REALLY die when I shot myself in the head I was re-incarnated, but its still a game.....Fun, even with penatlies. Fun.

There is no glory to a level 80 in most games, merely a matter of time spent.
Even players who die and reroll will have to work hard and learn to avoid mistakes and new monsters and new technology and evils like assasinations etc if they are popular.


Anyhow, thats my take on one way Hard Death and be good and would be, bad review? if you want, but there is "bad review" and "bad game" and like someone early in the thread said, It would have to be the most awesome game ever!!!.....I think Hard death would be one of the key features to making "the most awesome game ever"