The problem with mmorpgs and story...
by Jusitn Scifres · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 06/14/2006 (12:43 pm) · 115 replies
This is a bit of a philiposhpical / literary venture so bear with me... there's an idea in here, i promise...
the reason why mmorpgs are hard to become motivated with is that there is never a sense of story. sure, there's a main quest, but you can't help but to realize that thousands of others have gone before you, and that the quest really means nothing in the longterm. In fact, you're probably PLing with a guy who's done it like fifty million times. I beat the boss. whoopee.
the reason that this happens, is because from a literal standpoint, there is no individuality between characters. essentially, people are just sitting in on the games of others. your character has beat the evil ice wizard. his has not. wtf? how many fricking ice-wizards are there? the only way to remedy this problem is to make a singular, cohesive, and continuing story that all players experience simultaneously.
umm... okay. let's pretend that was easy for a moment. so new players are to miss out on 30 or so in-game years of story?
well... yeah.
part of the reason that the games aren't engaging is that the characters themselves never really feel that they are the movers and shakers of the game world. this comes partly from the arbitrary multi-universe storylines and level caps. most players (or at least me) lose interest in mmorpgs because they feel like just another face in the crowd.
remember in galaxies when there was finally a jedi? that game got fun in a hurry. suddenly, there was a player-motivated series of events going down. people became engaged. the game became a little bit more of a real tangible world.
okay, let me give an example game that would cover my philosophy. excuse the cheese, writing off the cuff:
the reason why mmorpgs are hard to become motivated with is that there is never a sense of story. sure, there's a main quest, but you can't help but to realize that thousands of others have gone before you, and that the quest really means nothing in the longterm. In fact, you're probably PLing with a guy who's done it like fifty million times. I beat the boss. whoopee.
the reason that this happens, is because from a literal standpoint, there is no individuality between characters. essentially, people are just sitting in on the games of others. your character has beat the evil ice wizard. his has not. wtf? how many fricking ice-wizards are there? the only way to remedy this problem is to make a singular, cohesive, and continuing story that all players experience simultaneously.
umm... okay. let's pretend that was easy for a moment. so new players are to miss out on 30 or so in-game years of story?
well... yeah.
part of the reason that the games aren't engaging is that the characters themselves never really feel that they are the movers and shakers of the game world. this comes partly from the arbitrary multi-universe storylines and level caps. most players (or at least me) lose interest in mmorpgs because they feel like just another face in the crowd.
remember in galaxies when there was finally a jedi? that game got fun in a hurry. suddenly, there was a player-motivated series of events going down. people became engaged. the game became a little bit more of a real tangible world.
okay, let me give an example game that would cover my philosophy. excuse the cheese, writing off the cuff:
About the author
#62
I would think the only type off MMO that may stand up to such a set up in an all out war campaign. You choose to be on 1 of 2 sides (possibly more) and then become a low ranking player in that army. The game would revolve around claiming cities, castles, etc to gain strategic advantages and power. As you gain experience you can recruit and command lower ranking players (assuming they listen). The nice things is that you'd be facing real players (for the most part) instead of AI so the challenges would be formidable.
Of course there'd have to be a dual class ranking. character class and military class. (Just because you manage to make it to 50th level wizard doesn't mean that you're a good enough leader that anyone would follow you into battle.) SO the game would level you up as a character but the other players would level you up in the military.
So. Who wants to write it? :-)
11/14/2006 (10:50 am)
The question is how do you EFFECTIVELY manage a world where players can affect it? Sure you can set things up so players can own property and band together to own castles and towns and what not but there are always players either striving to create chaos or to crush all around them to be the big bad ass. I am interested in creating a world where players affect the world itself but forsee it being a chaotic realm where most things get destroyed and players get frustrated. I guess the tough thing is enforcing laws while giving players enough freedom to have fun. At the same time Quests really get hit hard in such a scenario. If you set one up then once 1 person or group completes it, it's done and with thousands of players how do expect to keep up?I would think the only type off MMO that may stand up to such a set up in an all out war campaign. You choose to be on 1 of 2 sides (possibly more) and then become a low ranking player in that army. The game would revolve around claiming cities, castles, etc to gain strategic advantages and power. As you gain experience you can recruit and command lower ranking players (assuming they listen). The nice things is that you'd be facing real players (for the most part) instead of AI so the challenges would be formidable.
Of course there'd have to be a dual class ranking. character class and military class. (Just because you manage to make it to 50th level wizard doesn't mean that you're a good enough leader that anyone would follow you into battle.) SO the game would level you up as a character but the other players would level you up in the military.
So. Who wants to write it? :-)
#63
Shiraz poses a good question, but skips another: How do you effectively manage a world where players can affect it? It's a good question, but if you can answer a prerequisite question in an elegant manner, then this question becomes less of a beast. The real question is: How do you design a world in which the players can make an impact?
There's a lot of different things that need to be done for this to be realized- and I don't believe that it's out of reach for either a big studio or an indie...
First and foremost, you need to treat NPC's the same as you treat players, and give them the same abilities. If your rogue can blind an opponent, then your rogue should be able to be blinded when facing an NPC rogue. If you face a wizard equal in level to your magic skills, then you should know that that wizard will have access to all the same spells, and higher level ones will have a few tricks up their sleeve that you don't. Give your NPC's the AI to give players a run for their money, and not just bots waiting to be mowed down by the dozen for a player to grind to the next level. Not doing this dooms most of everything else you will try to do.
Secondly, make your missions dynamic. Your NPC's all have suped-up AI... Now what? Well, Anarchy Online gave out unique names to their NPC's, and when you picked up a mission, you had to go after a specific person, who would not respawn with that name except if the random name generator hit that combination again (which is bound to happen, but honestly, do you know how many John Smiths there are in the real world too?). So now you have a uniquely-named NPC with the same abilities as the player, and not some stiff, three-tactic-using, mow-me-down-for-xp bot. Well, that should slow your players' roll somewhat, but if the mission is exactly the same for every player, then it is still the same. What you can do is create a mission generator where different NPC's in the town have a different gripe about the different wizards which require different remedies. Maybe you don't need to kill that wizard off because he harrasses the town, but you need to go convince the evil wizard to help some family's ailing kid, or catch him sneaking around and doing something, or steal an item back from him, or yeah, knock his ass off for killing too many of Farmer Maggot's cows. And what if he's got sympathizers in town, and you tie that into the reputation system, so that you can actually help him out, and the majority of the town becomes hostile to you?
That brings me to another point: Build all of these systems with gameplay in mind, and vice versa. Crafting, combat, reputation systems, skill/class/level systems, etc... That's all interrelated stuff, but most MMO's don't treat them as such. If you don't either, you'll run into some big problems making things work together down the line, and will resort to weird little tricks you will then have to explain in the world. Like "resurrection". Huh? How about: You got your ass knocked out in battle and left for dead instead. Sounds a bit more realistic, and you then don't have to explain as much when the player pops up somewhere. It's then more in line with a realistic world if the player "wakes up" in a remote aid station, or propped up against some random tree, than being a ghost running out to find your body to come back to life, or going out to pray at some weird tombstone to get xp back. It just never worked, and noone even tried to figure out why.
There's a million creative answers to these questions. We just have to find them and make them work for us.
11/15/2006 (7:04 am)
@Mark: This is the problem with the questing systems that are currently out there. Basically, it's a static world where you run through a number of levels, which are called quests, and do the same thing that everyone else does. It's a single player RPG with a multiplayer component for social purposes. There is no real changes that the player can make to the world.Shiraz poses a good question, but skips another: How do you effectively manage a world where players can affect it? It's a good question, but if you can answer a prerequisite question in an elegant manner, then this question becomes less of a beast. The real question is: How do you design a world in which the players can make an impact?
There's a lot of different things that need to be done for this to be realized- and I don't believe that it's out of reach for either a big studio or an indie...
First and foremost, you need to treat NPC's the same as you treat players, and give them the same abilities. If your rogue can blind an opponent, then your rogue should be able to be blinded when facing an NPC rogue. If you face a wizard equal in level to your magic skills, then you should know that that wizard will have access to all the same spells, and higher level ones will have a few tricks up their sleeve that you don't. Give your NPC's the AI to give players a run for their money, and not just bots waiting to be mowed down by the dozen for a player to grind to the next level. Not doing this dooms most of everything else you will try to do.
Secondly, make your missions dynamic. Your NPC's all have suped-up AI... Now what? Well, Anarchy Online gave out unique names to their NPC's, and when you picked up a mission, you had to go after a specific person, who would not respawn with that name except if the random name generator hit that combination again (which is bound to happen, but honestly, do you know how many John Smiths there are in the real world too?). So now you have a uniquely-named NPC with the same abilities as the player, and not some stiff, three-tactic-using, mow-me-down-for-xp bot. Well, that should slow your players' roll somewhat, but if the mission is exactly the same for every player, then it is still the same. What you can do is create a mission generator where different NPC's in the town have a different gripe about the different wizards which require different remedies. Maybe you don't need to kill that wizard off because he harrasses the town, but you need to go convince the evil wizard to help some family's ailing kid, or catch him sneaking around and doing something, or steal an item back from him, or yeah, knock his ass off for killing too many of Farmer Maggot's cows. And what if he's got sympathizers in town, and you tie that into the reputation system, so that you can actually help him out, and the majority of the town becomes hostile to you?
That brings me to another point: Build all of these systems with gameplay in mind, and vice versa. Crafting, combat, reputation systems, skill/class/level systems, etc... That's all interrelated stuff, but most MMO's don't treat them as such. If you don't either, you'll run into some big problems making things work together down the line, and will resort to weird little tricks you will then have to explain in the world. Like "resurrection". Huh? How about: You got your ass knocked out in battle and left for dead instead. Sounds a bit more realistic, and you then don't have to explain as much when the player pops up somewhere. It's then more in line with a realistic world if the player "wakes up" in a remote aid station, or propped up against some random tree, than being a ghost running out to find your body to come back to life, or going out to pray at some weird tombstone to get xp back. It just never worked, and noone even tried to figure out why.
There's a million creative answers to these questions. We just have to find them and make them work for us.
#64
11/15/2006 (10:10 am)
Resurrection might not be realistic but either is cheaters who exploit the game. So what do you tell someone who is paying for a game every month & gets killed by someone with an exploit? 'I'm sorry you pay every month to play but your character is now gone and even though you have invested hundreds of dollars to this game you must now start completely over because that is realistic'.
#65
I wholly agree with you for the need for intelligent NPCs. As far as the quests go, I like the ideas you proposed. Implementation to make it work right will be a bitch because of all the variables but a dedicated, creative team could pull it off.
As for your thoughts on ressurection "wakes up in a remote aid station", see city of heroes. You wake up in a hospital. Your point is valid though. Death needs to be handled in better ways. I quickly tired of WoW just because of the death factor. Not that I died way too often, but at times when I did it was in a place where I could die right away again because of all the creatures in the area. I spent more time trying to get to my body than actually questing. That really sucks!
@mb, resurrection might not be realistic but cheating is. look at how often people get away with all sorts of stuff in real life. Game designers just need to find better ways to prevent/limit it. For example, I've seen many cases of preventing lower level characters from getting to higher level areas but the reverse should be enforced as well. If a level 40 guy can't actually get to any of the level 3 guys to slaughter them then there's less of a problem.
11/15/2006 (12:47 pm)
Ted, I tried to address your second question with my example of a war MMO (and it could be a medieval magical war) where the players work to control places in the world. Sure there are many other ways but that seemed the simplest to me to implement because the quests would primarily be player made.I wholly agree with you for the need for intelligent NPCs. As far as the quests go, I like the ideas you proposed. Implementation to make it work right will be a bitch because of all the variables but a dedicated, creative team could pull it off.
As for your thoughts on ressurection "wakes up in a remote aid station", see city of heroes. You wake up in a hospital. Your point is valid though. Death needs to be handled in better ways. I quickly tired of WoW just because of the death factor. Not that I died way too often, but at times when I did it was in a place where I could die right away again because of all the creatures in the area. I spent more time trying to get to my body than actually questing. That really sucks!
@mb, resurrection might not be realistic but cheating is. look at how often people get away with all sorts of stuff in real life. Game designers just need to find better ways to prevent/limit it. For example, I've seen many cases of preventing lower level characters from getting to higher level areas but the reverse should be enforced as well. If a level 40 guy can't actually get to any of the level 3 guys to slaughter them then there's less of a problem.
#66
This is true, but that's two seperate issues. One issue is related to presenting the world to the user and using gameplay to do just that. The second issue is related to the security and integrity of the network and game rules, and keeping exploits to a minimum.
Even Diablo, which did not have permadeath, was hacked and many characters lost. That's not a new thing. What you need to watch out for is exploits, period. And every exploit has the potential to lose you customers. Also, who says that in a permadeath situation the player would have to start over completely, rather than getting some benefit towards their new character?
11/15/2006 (12:47 pm)
Quote:Resurrection might not be realistic but either is cheaters who exploit the game.
This is true, but that's two seperate issues. One issue is related to presenting the world to the user and using gameplay to do just that. The second issue is related to the security and integrity of the network and game rules, and keeping exploits to a minimum.
Even Diablo, which did not have permadeath, was hacked and many characters lost. That's not a new thing. What you need to watch out for is exploits, period. And every exploit has the potential to lose you customers. Also, who says that in a permadeath situation the player would have to start over completely, rather than getting some benefit towards their new character?
#67
Yes. You will have people who will exploit- and that you have to deal with as it comes up because no matter what you do- someone will find an exploit. You should design with this in mind but you should not design with that as a barrier because it will happen.
As far as management of a world and questing, I agree with Ted but would like to go a bit further.
What if you took your suped up AI and gave them a purpose instead of quests.
Let's use Star Wars as an example since most will be familiar with it.
Let's say you have a Star Wars game set during the time of "Empire Strikes Back"
The purpose of the Imperial NPCs is to:
A- Conquer Planets
B- Seek and Destroy Rebels
and
C- Build a Death Star to better carry out plans A and B.
The Purpose of the Rebel NPCs is to:
A- Liberate Planets
B- Infiltrate and Destroy the Empire
and
C- Prevent the Death Star from being built.
Now that the NPCs have these purposes they will actively play them out- no matter what the players do. Much the same way that Civilizations in Civ 4 carry out their wars and make deals whether you interact with them or not- (of course it would be nice if their choices made more sense).
Players will have their choice as to which side they want to aid and will recieve directions from NPC leaders as to what is needed- this could be done in the form of group e-mails. Mission Terminals. NPCs in certain areas- etc.
In this way when the player gets a mission (help build a fleet of X-wings, find a hidden base on Tatooine, Attack Alderan, etc)- it is more life like because it is game altering.
What happens when the Rebels are destroyed? The game goes on. You could design a resurgence plan where a leader will spawn and start another rebellion.
My idea is to allow players to start their own factions and participate in that way as well, so when the Empire is crushed perhaps you have the Sith to deal with or the CIS, etc. etc.
I don't think questing as it stands works in a ever-changing world. You need NPCs with multi-tiered goals and ways to assist/resist them.
As far as managing Chaos. Authority NPCs and Players in authoritive positions can help with that. If you have an NPC police force that heavily guards areas that Noobs play in and not so much in other areas- that would work.
Players who play police earn points by making sure areas are player safe. It's their job. There are more players who would play on this capacity than there are griefers. Use them.
You just have to design it so that a griefer could not use his badge to harrass others- which CAN be done.
11/15/2006 (8:53 pm)
When making an MMO you must take into consideration the types of players you are going to host. Yes. You will have people who will exploit- and that you have to deal with as it comes up because no matter what you do- someone will find an exploit. You should design with this in mind but you should not design with that as a barrier because it will happen.
As far as management of a world and questing, I agree with Ted but would like to go a bit further.
What if you took your suped up AI and gave them a purpose instead of quests.
Let's use Star Wars as an example since most will be familiar with it.
Let's say you have a Star Wars game set during the time of "Empire Strikes Back"
The purpose of the Imperial NPCs is to:
A- Conquer Planets
B- Seek and Destroy Rebels
and
C- Build a Death Star to better carry out plans A and B.
The Purpose of the Rebel NPCs is to:
A- Liberate Planets
B- Infiltrate and Destroy the Empire
and
C- Prevent the Death Star from being built.
Now that the NPCs have these purposes they will actively play them out- no matter what the players do. Much the same way that Civilizations in Civ 4 carry out their wars and make deals whether you interact with them or not- (of course it would be nice if their choices made more sense).
Players will have their choice as to which side they want to aid and will recieve directions from NPC leaders as to what is needed- this could be done in the form of group e-mails. Mission Terminals. NPCs in certain areas- etc.
In this way when the player gets a mission (help build a fleet of X-wings, find a hidden base on Tatooine, Attack Alderan, etc)- it is more life like because it is game altering.
What happens when the Rebels are destroyed? The game goes on. You could design a resurgence plan where a leader will spawn and start another rebellion.
My idea is to allow players to start their own factions and participate in that way as well, so when the Empire is crushed perhaps you have the Sith to deal with or the CIS, etc. etc.
I don't think questing as it stands works in a ever-changing world. You need NPCs with multi-tiered goals and ways to assist/resist them.
As far as managing Chaos. Authority NPCs and Players in authoritive positions can help with that. If you have an NPC police force that heavily guards areas that Noobs play in and not so much in other areas- that would work.
Players who play police earn points by making sure areas are player safe. It's their job. There are more players who would play on this capacity than there are griefers. Use them.
You just have to design it so that a griefer could not use his badge to harrass others- which CAN be done.
#68
I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ALONG TIME (tho not here). It would indeed from a developers point of view ..be complete insanity to create. But o the joy a truly dynamic world would be. Anyone ever play secondlife? WAIT dont flame me yet lol... yea. I play.. but it SUCKS... and do you know why? Well... The engine is crap... The network code is UTTER CRAP... and the people are pretty much just in it for the money.
Now... how bout this... Has anyone here ever considered creating a dynamic world SIMILAR to secondlife.. except you can upload your own meshes instead of using a crappy editor... and open source enough to let people run their own servers if they have the power to do so....
Also a few more ideas along the same lines... How bout.. if your character dies... HES DEAD. Thats it.. hes dead... you can make another and maybe if his corpse is still laying at the bottom of the gulch you can get your stuff back... reclaim his house...etc... but what if I come along before u reach ur dead char? i take ur shit! haha just like real life. what if you come with a new char and we found ur body and the gov (also other real ppl) resold your house and I have a deed now LOL mine now!...
anyways it wouldnt be just for griefing.. what if murder was a crime.. what if bloodstains didnt come out of avatar shirts? what if you threw a knife in the bushes and it STAYED THERE?
these are the dynamic world questions...... also... what if the npc's were born... and died.... what if the reason that level 15 boar IS a level 15 is cuz he has killed 50 weaker characters or animals or hell even other boars?
dynamic worlds will be a bitch... but i tell you if i ever master torque... I've got a plan.. and you wont convince me its impossible.
Im pleased to see other developers as bored as I am with MMORPG....
Nuerosis@neuroticnetworks.com
11/17/2006 (2:25 am)
Holy crap .. Im sorry I couldnt read all those... but i got the jist of it the moment I read the first few posts...I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS ALONG TIME (tho not here). It would indeed from a developers point of view ..be complete insanity to create. But o the joy a truly dynamic world would be. Anyone ever play secondlife? WAIT dont flame me yet lol... yea. I play.. but it SUCKS... and do you know why? Well... The engine is crap... The network code is UTTER CRAP... and the people are pretty much just in it for the money.
Now... how bout this... Has anyone here ever considered creating a dynamic world SIMILAR to secondlife.. except you can upload your own meshes instead of using a crappy editor... and open source enough to let people run their own servers if they have the power to do so....
Also a few more ideas along the same lines... How bout.. if your character dies... HES DEAD. Thats it.. hes dead... you can make another and maybe if his corpse is still laying at the bottom of the gulch you can get your stuff back... reclaim his house...etc... but what if I come along before u reach ur dead char? i take ur shit! haha just like real life. what if you come with a new char and we found ur body and the gov (also other real ppl) resold your house and I have a deed now LOL mine now!...
anyways it wouldnt be just for griefing.. what if murder was a crime.. what if bloodstains didnt come out of avatar shirts? what if you threw a knife in the bushes and it STAYED THERE?
these are the dynamic world questions...... also... what if the npc's were born... and died.... what if the reason that level 15 boar IS a level 15 is cuz he has killed 50 weaker characters or animals or hell even other boars?
dynamic worlds will be a bitch... but i tell you if i ever master torque... I've got a plan.. and you wont convince me its impossible.
Im pleased to see other developers as bored as I am with MMORPG....
Nuerosis@neuroticnetworks.com
#69
My point is... The Secondlife World has the right idea.. But it is severely flawed.... I think this group of minds have the right ideas to at least begin the journey to fix it. Rock on guys. I knew I wasnt crazy.
This seriously fills me with a great deal of enthusiasm about my quest for torque mastery.
I think torque would be excellent but then I havent put it to the hardest of tests just yet.
You guys think torque could handle a job this big?
11/17/2006 (2:30 am)
Ok I see now that some of these ideas were already mentioned... my bad.. but also THATS AWESOME.My point is... The Secondlife World has the right idea.. But it is severely flawed.... I think this group of minds have the right ideas to at least begin the journey to fix it. Rock on guys. I knew I wasnt crazy.
This seriously fills me with a great deal of enthusiasm about my quest for torque mastery.
I think torque would be excellent but then I havent put it to the hardest of tests just yet.
You guys think torque could handle a job this big?
#70
But to help you I'll give you my game idea.
-Unlike in common MMOs like Guild Wars or World of Warcraft the NPCs do not have quest arrows.
-Like in Oblivion you can talk to people to get tasks or missions.
-Rumors about treasure, pleas for help, a task needing done, a mission from a superior officer. These can be quests
-Your quest log is filled out by yourself. You type in what you want to remember for a quest.
Example: Dianas Lonax has told you a rumor that a nearby caravan needed new guards, you type in "Dianas told me that a merchant caravan in Icegale was looking for a couple new guards to go through the mountains" so you then proceed to go to Icegale and ask around for where the merchant caravan is.
-You also rank up in a heirarchy system. Gaining fame with a village, town, or city can get you chosen for a position such as a City Guard or the Royal Guard Commander.
-There are new quests everyday and once a quest is accepted nobody can get it from that source. However if a quest can have multiple people such as the merchant one then you can share it with someone and go together. Both will get a reward based on what they did.
-When you die (which will be hard to happen to you) you must defeat a celestial or demonic foe to return to life, or face character deletion. Characters that were deleted in this way can be brought back if you are ressurected, so its not the end of the world, wait for a healer to find you.
-To add to immersion GMs will be around to make sure all players had rping names and on most servers acted in character, offtopic chat will be available of course for those in rping servers wanting to talk about life.
If this doesn't help your game be different than I guess i'm a miserable designer :D
11/23/2006 (6:29 am)
I agree and that led me to add a game element for an MMO i tried to design. However nobody wanted to join a team for an MMO that I admit usually fail so I quit that one and started making strategy games instead.But to help you I'll give you my game idea.
-Unlike in common MMOs like Guild Wars or World of Warcraft the NPCs do not have quest arrows.
-Like in Oblivion you can talk to people to get tasks or missions.
-Rumors about treasure, pleas for help, a task needing done, a mission from a superior officer. These can be quests
-Your quest log is filled out by yourself. You type in what you want to remember for a quest.
Example: Dianas Lonax has told you a rumor that a nearby caravan needed new guards, you type in "Dianas told me that a merchant caravan in Icegale was looking for a couple new guards to go through the mountains" so you then proceed to go to Icegale and ask around for where the merchant caravan is.
-You also rank up in a heirarchy system. Gaining fame with a village, town, or city can get you chosen for a position such as a City Guard or the Royal Guard Commander.
-There are new quests everyday and once a quest is accepted nobody can get it from that source. However if a quest can have multiple people such as the merchant one then you can share it with someone and go together. Both will get a reward based on what they did.
-When you die (which will be hard to happen to you) you must defeat a celestial or demonic foe to return to life, or face character deletion. Characters that were deleted in this way can be brought back if you are ressurected, so its not the end of the world, wait for a healer to find you.
-To add to immersion GMs will be around to make sure all players had rping names and on most servers acted in character, offtopic chat will be available of course for those in rping servers wanting to talk about life.
If this doesn't help your game be different than I guess i'm a miserable designer :D
#71
Also, although I like the idea have being able to write personal notes as I've seen in several RPGs, the game should put the standard details of a quest in my log book because I'm sure as hell not going to like having to do that. I'm a lazy bastard and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'd tired of the RPG quickly if I had to do that.
I like the twist of facing a demonic foe to get a second chance at living but, if you win, what state would you come back in? Players could easily not worry about death any more because they could die, beat the foe and come back full strength to slaughter their remaining enemies. Also, what state are you facing the demonic foe in, since you just died and if you're a spell caster your spells may be depleted? And if you can be ressurected regardless, are you really facing character deletion? Well, that's just semantics.
Finally, what's an rpging name? And how many GMs are out there to make sure I'm role playing properly. A GM can really only observe a single party at a time to do this, unless we're talking random spot checks and even that's a lot of work. I'm not saying it's a bad idea but, like the quests, it's a costly one. To maintain a staff for such an MMO the players would probably have $200+/month subscription fees.
The unfortunate drawback to designing the ultimate game with the ultimate ongoing storyline is the time to do it and the money to maintain it.
11/23/2006 (11:43 am)
Jacob, where are these "new quests everyday" coming from? And if once someone grabs one it's locked then where are these hundreds to thousands of new quests coming from?Also, although I like the idea have being able to write personal notes as I've seen in several RPGs, the game should put the standard details of a quest in my log book because I'm sure as hell not going to like having to do that. I'm a lazy bastard and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'd tired of the RPG quickly if I had to do that.
I like the twist of facing a demonic foe to get a second chance at living but, if you win, what state would you come back in? Players could easily not worry about death any more because they could die, beat the foe and come back full strength to slaughter their remaining enemies. Also, what state are you facing the demonic foe in, since you just died and if you're a spell caster your spells may be depleted? And if you can be ressurected regardless, are you really facing character deletion? Well, that's just semantics.
Finally, what's an rpging name? And how many GMs are out there to make sure I'm role playing properly. A GM can really only observe a single party at a time to do this, unless we're talking random spot checks and even that's a lot of work. I'm not saying it's a bad idea but, like the quests, it's a costly one. To maintain a staff for such an MMO the players would probably have $200+/month subscription fees.
The unfortunate drawback to designing the ultimate game with the ultimate ongoing storyline is the time to do it and the money to maintain it.
#72
Now the idea of having NPCs gain experience is very cool but it has to be deployed properly. The area with the 4th level boars is there so 4th level players can find opponents they have a good chance of beating so they can make it to level 5. If there's this one boar out there that has been lucky enough to survive and make it to level 15 then the 4 level players are gonna scream bloody murder (literally) when they keep getting slaughtered and the boar just keeps getting tougher. The old boar would have to move on to a new area or take up residence deeper in the woods. This does, however, create a spontaneous quest for higher level characters which is given to them by lower level characters. "Can you please kill the king boar so that we can safely slaughter the little ones in the forest again?" Now that's a dynamically changing world with spontaneous quests!
11/23/2006 (11:53 am)
Neurosis, in regards to what if when your character dies, he's dead. If I knew that after spending hundreds of hours building up my character; buying weapons, items, property; working my way up in fame and guilds; and aquiring various useful skills that one bad battle means I've gotta start from scratch, will I play that game? ummmmmmm ...... NO! That's why those games don't exist.Now the idea of having NPCs gain experience is very cool but it has to be deployed properly. The area with the 4th level boars is there so 4th level players can find opponents they have a good chance of beating so they can make it to level 5. If there's this one boar out there that has been lucky enough to survive and make it to level 15 then the 4 level players are gonna scream bloody murder (literally) when they keep getting slaughtered and the boar just keeps getting tougher. The old boar would have to move on to a new area or take up residence deeper in the woods. This does, however, create a spontaneous quest for higher level characters which is given to them by lower level characters. "Can you please kill the king boar so that we can safely slaughter the little ones in the forest again?" Now that's a dynamically changing world with spontaneous quests!
#73
This is a minor point, and may make your game more difficult.
This would be a good optional feature, but not something players should be forced to do, for two reasons: The first is as Shiraz says- a lot of players won't want to take that time to write something that would probably not be read. However, if you want to turn that into a journaling feature that the player can jot down bits of information that can be accessed and "copied" into other players' journals (sort of like the naval journals that were so prized during the 15th-18th centuries by different empires), I think that would work really well, especially if you mixed it with a feature where you can insert small bits of cartography. Oops, kinda revealed a feature I've wanted to implement (if I ever get past the simpler shit I need to do).
What if you could flag certain items or slots over time to be "inherited" by your next character, which would not necessarily start over at zero? What if the vulnerability of death were a voluntary thing that would concordantly raise your stats for a temporary time, after which they would fade and you could "turn off" your vulnerability? Of course, such a feature would not be available very often.
@Shiraz: You make a few good points on how missions would be generated, and things like that, and I think that that is where the discussion is best suited to be, instead of everyone throwing out high-level features that still depend on a subsystem that is not yet ready to support it.
11/23/2006 (7:40 pm)
Quote:Unlike in common MMOs like Guild Wars or World of Warcraft the NPCs do not have quest arrows.
This is a minor point, and may make your game more difficult.
Quote:Your quest log is filled out by yourself. You type in what you want to remember for a quest.
This would be a good optional feature, but not something players should be forced to do, for two reasons: The first is as Shiraz says- a lot of players won't want to take that time to write something that would probably not be read. However, if you want to turn that into a journaling feature that the player can jot down bits of information that can be accessed and "copied" into other players' journals (sort of like the naval journals that were so prized during the 15th-18th centuries by different empires), I think that would work really well, especially if you mixed it with a feature where you can insert small bits of cartography. Oops, kinda revealed a feature I've wanted to implement (if I ever get past the simpler shit I need to do).
Quote:If I knew that after spending hundreds of hours building up my character; buying weapons, items, property; working my way up in fame and guilds; and aquiring various useful skills that one bad battle means I've gotta start from scratch, will I player that game? ummmmmmm ...... NO! That's why those games don't exist.
What if you could flag certain items or slots over time to be "inherited" by your next character, which would not necessarily start over at zero? What if the vulnerability of death were a voluntary thing that would concordantly raise your stats for a temporary time, after which they would fade and you could "turn off" your vulnerability? Of course, such a feature would not be available very often.
@Shiraz: You make a few good points on how missions would be generated, and things like that, and I think that that is where the discussion is best suited to be, instead of everyone throwing out high-level features that still depend on a subsystem that is not yet ready to support it.
#74
Death wise I think loosing xp and items is enough to make me really not want to die again, atleast thats how I feel. Purhaps a kills to looses ranking system would add a little more i want to die mentality.
With most leveling systems it is almost in-evadable for players to loose interest in the game or atleast in they're current charactor once they reach the a curtain point or the cap. My idea is don't bother with leveling systems and let the player developer his own skills that way it makes things more equel for the players who don't spend they're life playing the game and gives players a purpose other than to level. But I think what you take away you will have to give back in some way. Also leveling systems can be a bit of fun some times and i think in some cases it is a good feature.
I definitely like the idea of having one quest/story-line that every one can be involved in. definitely alot better than everyone having the same to-do list.
I think story is definitely important in a game but games aren't books so we don't want to read them we want to play them. Keep the in game story telling short.
You could always limit how powerful boars can get, which make sence since i doubt that a boar could become more powerful than a bear or what ever.
p.s. please port your games to Mac so I can play :]
11/29/2006 (11:45 pm)
I can't be f'd reading all those posts so I'll just comment on what i have bothered to read and my opinions on mmos.Death wise I think loosing xp and items is enough to make me really not want to die again, atleast thats how I feel. Purhaps a kills to looses ranking system would add a little more i want to die mentality.
With most leveling systems it is almost in-evadable for players to loose interest in the game or atleast in they're current charactor once they reach the a curtain point or the cap. My idea is don't bother with leveling systems and let the player developer his own skills that way it makes things more equel for the players who don't spend they're life playing the game and gives players a purpose other than to level. But I think what you take away you will have to give back in some way. Also leveling systems can be a bit of fun some times and i think in some cases it is a good feature.
I definitely like the idea of having one quest/story-line that every one can be involved in. definitely alot better than everyone having the same to-do list.
I think story is definitely important in a game but games aren't books so we don't want to read them we want to play them. Keep the in game story telling short.
You could always limit how powerful boars can get, which make sence since i doubt that a boar could become more powerful than a bear or what ever.
p.s. please port your games to Mac so I can play :]
#75
As to the death thing. Consider this. Everquest had a harsh death penalty for much of its life. Because of this, much of the content in the game was unused. The rewards simply weren't worth the risk, so the player base congregated in the few areas that gave the best rewards (either cash or uber loot) with the least chance of dying. Once that cycle started, it became self perpetuating as players would go to where other players were to find groups and other aid.
Know this: whatever death penalty you choose, there will be a large number of potential players that won't like it.
12/12/2006 (1:56 am)
FFXI did a pretty good job of a story line with their missions by using cut scenes. But that's what Square does. I haven't seen it from any other MMO developer.As to the death thing. Consider this. Everquest had a harsh death penalty for much of its life. Because of this, much of the content in the game was unused. The rewards simply weren't worth the risk, so the player base congregated in the few areas that gave the best rewards (either cash or uber loot) with the least chance of dying. Once that cycle started, it became self perpetuating as players would go to where other players were to find groups and other aid.
Know this: whatever death penalty you choose, there will be a large number of potential players that won't like it.
#76
One person asks: "Why do people have to die?"
And Nate answeres: "So that life means something."
And that is what's wrong with MMOs. They don't mean anything because nothing changes. Things like Permadeath really need another look.
People always say "If you are going to make me build a character for months only to have it killed, I'm not going to play your game."
I'll take that bet.
I'll design a game where your character WILL be killed. Permanently. And I bet you will still play my game- because I will design it so that the fun outweighs your fear of death.
12/12/2006 (1:37 pm)
There is a promo for "Six Feet Under" (a great show) that really says it all. One person asks: "Why do people have to die?"
And Nate answeres: "So that life means something."
And that is what's wrong with MMOs. They don't mean anything because nothing changes. Things like Permadeath really need another look.
People always say "If you are going to make me build a character for months only to have it killed, I'm not going to play your game."
I'll take that bet.
I'll design a game where your character WILL be killed. Permanently. And I bet you will still play my game- because I will design it so that the fun outweighs your fear of death.
#77
Without a chance of failure, chance of death virtual live means nothing.
And there was one (hugely) succesfull multiplayer online game in wich players invested huge amounts of time to build op there characters. And faced permanent death. That game, it wasn't a RPG but still, wether you liked or not was a incredible succes.
Diablo 2 - Hardcore
Ernest Adams wrote something fun on this
I have no fear that this letter may never find you - will rot away beside my body here in the dungeon, for in ten seconds I can be back in safety. And as if that were not enough, we also have spells of resurrection! Yes! The greatest miracle of all, which I had thought solely the province of God, is available in this place for the price of a few gold coins.
http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/027_Letter_From_a_Dungeon/027_letter_from_a_dungeon.htm
Anyways, yes, perma death. Make life mean something and make taking risks risky.
12/13/2006 (6:04 am)
I hear that.Without a chance of failure, chance of death virtual live means nothing.
And there was one (hugely) succesfull multiplayer online game in wich players invested huge amounts of time to build op there characters. And faced permanent death. That game, it wasn't a RPG but still, wether you liked or not was a incredible succes.
Diablo 2 - Hardcore
Ernest Adams wrote something fun on this
I have no fear that this letter may never find you - will rot away beside my body here in the dungeon, for in ten seconds I can be back in safety. And as if that were not enough, we also have spells of resurrection! Yes! The greatest miracle of all, which I had thought solely the province of God, is available in this place for the price of a few gold coins.
http://www.designersnotebook.com/Columns/027_Letter_From_a_Dungeon/027_letter_from_a_dungeon.htm
Anyways, yes, perma death. Make life mean something and make taking risks risky.
#78
i had a fit when my dad cleaned out the auto links at the top of the page and i couldent get back to the site and this discussion, but i went to my e-mail and everything was alright......
but anyway, what happened to the thing with the fallen? i thought that was great and i want you lot to ACTUALLY MAKE IT!!!
i would help but im only 13 =( therefor i know nothing about programming.......
e-mail me about the game thing u lot wer talikin about up at the top of the page!!! i wanno kno wat happened!!!! that would be great, shooting fallen and everything......
but anyway, just e-mail me!
also, i cant belive you lot r still goin on about perma-death!
you lot carry things on more than my mum............................
ill probably come on here alot start talking about the game with the fallen in it again!
ok, im gonna wait for a reply now, or at least a complaint. ^^
talk to me peeps!!!!!!!!!!
12/15/2006 (12:44 pm)
Hey everybody! im new but i know this is a very interesting discussion.i had a fit when my dad cleaned out the auto links at the top of the page and i couldent get back to the site and this discussion, but i went to my e-mail and everything was alright......
but anyway, what happened to the thing with the fallen? i thought that was great and i want you lot to ACTUALLY MAKE IT!!!
i would help but im only 13 =( therefor i know nothing about programming.......
e-mail me about the game thing u lot wer talikin about up at the top of the page!!! i wanno kno wat happened!!!! that would be great, shooting fallen and everything......
but anyway, just e-mail me!
also, i cant belive you lot r still goin on about perma-death!
you lot carry things on more than my mum............................
ill probably come on here alot start talking about the game with the fallen in it again!
ok, im gonna wait for a reply now, or at least a complaint. ^^
talk to me peeps!!!!!!!!!!
#79
You're "interactive story" things sounds amazing, but bad at the same time. It's great how things will be destroyed, and areas completely changed, but... In an MMO it's very rare to have only one server on which you play. Having multiple servers would mean that players on each server may react differently to all the situations, plus know when something is going to happen ahead of time by looking at other servers.
"Hey, you know that ship that crashed yesterday?"
"yea, what about it?"
"A little while ago, some one went inside it on server 12, and hundreds off the fallen rushed out, killed him, and attacked."
"Wow that sucks, good thing we know not to do that."
Having something like that can ruin event activiated suprises for players, or if a server is a little behind one in story, it get's a heads up of what to do and what not to do. And players may react to something differently, changing the story of on server to something different than all the others, which would be a bitch to program.
It's always nice to be able to make your character look different or have different abilities than others, and having one gun with the same affect as another is nice, but if one guy takes out a fallen general or something in a one time mission, that this other person cannot complete, doesn't he deserve something special? Better armor, a new weapon, something semi-permanent. I mean an item he will likely use alot, that's doesn't wear away over time, such as potions.
I think a high death penalty is good, as long as you can continue playing after a death with not too large a decrease in your ability, and some way to get back to normal. Whether it be regaining xp you lost, having to level and raise your stats back to their previous amounts, or something that can be recovered. But the one place where their should be no DP should be pvp. pvp is incredibly fun, and my favoite part of every MMO, and i wouldn't want to be afraid to pvp because of massive DP. Well, not necessarily NO DP, but a subtraction from the normal amount. PVP is all good fun and players shouldn't be punished as heavily for enjoying it. Of course, if one player race decides to attack another and in a bloody war people die, it's good to have some DP so people don't blindly charge into battle. And players should be able to either join a server where pvp is only arena based, or something if they don't wish to be randomly killed, or have something they can set where they "turn off" pvp for themselves. In case some one doesn't like being attacked randomly, or going afk and dying in a raid. Of course, you can't go to enemy cities free of pvp status or anything, but you get the idea.
NPC's leveling is a cool idea, have guards for a city range from level 20-100 persay, and level up as they defend the town, maybe enemy factions could take advantage of this by slowly killing all the high level guard NPC's around a city, and forcing the game to replace them (hire new guards) with lowbies so they could later attack the city. In Guild Wars there was a great thing you could do, you could hit the level cap in the nub area by going to the highest level monsters in the game after you no longer get xp from them, running up to them, dying, and over time they would actually level. You do this for hours and they hit 20 or so, and now you can level. It took a long time, and few people did this, but just that you can do that is cool.
The quest log thing, Sounds cool how you can write it yourself, but it should be optional. Maybe be able to change quest text so you better understand it, or add notes and footers to it. You should also be able to return quest text to the default in case you messed up with it, though you keep all quest progress.
There should be quests players can do as much as they want, and ones that can only done by one player/group so it seems like an achivement to them. "Did you kill the evil Ice wizard? NO!! YOU CAN'T AHA"
Fully customizable characters, so two of the same classes can be totally different. In Guild Wars a Ranger/Necromancer "touch ranger" couldn't even be compared to a Ranger/Necromancer Trapper. 2 different play styles, 1 same class.
Wanted to say something else but I don't remember... Well sounds really neat, I would help you... but I'm only 14 and a nub at gramming, me and some friends just bought torque and are learning how to use it. Stupid C, with your TWO +'s... Whatever, G'luck man.
12/20/2006 (9:07 pm)
Sounds like a great idea... but with alot of problems i see.You're "interactive story" things sounds amazing, but bad at the same time. It's great how things will be destroyed, and areas completely changed, but... In an MMO it's very rare to have only one server on which you play. Having multiple servers would mean that players on each server may react differently to all the situations, plus know when something is going to happen ahead of time by looking at other servers.
"Hey, you know that ship that crashed yesterday?"
"yea, what about it?"
"A little while ago, some one went inside it on server 12, and hundreds off the fallen rushed out, killed him, and attacked
"Wow that sucks, good thing we know not to do that."
Having something like that can ruin event activiated suprises for players, or if a server is a little behind one in story, it get's a heads up of what to do and what not to do. And players may react to something differently, changing the story of on server to something different than all the others, which would be a bitch to program.
It's always nice to be able to make your character look different or have different abilities than others, and having one gun with the same affect as another is nice, but if one guy takes out a fallen general or something in a one time mission, that this other person cannot complete, doesn't he deserve something special? Better armor, a new weapon, something semi-permanent. I mean an item he will likely use alot, that's doesn't wear away over time, such as potions.
I think a high death penalty is good, as long as you can continue playing after a death with not too large a decrease in your ability, and some way to get back to normal. Whether it be regaining xp you lost, having to level and raise your stats back to their previous amounts, or something that can be recovered. But the one place where their should be no DP should be pvp. pvp is incredibly fun, and my favoite part of every MMO, and i wouldn't want to be afraid to pvp because of massive DP. Well, not necessarily NO DP, but a subtraction from the normal amount. PVP is all good fun and players shouldn't be punished as heavily for enjoying it. Of course, if one player race decides to attack another and in a bloody war people die, it's good to have some DP so people don't blindly charge into battle. And players should be able to either join a server where pvp is only arena based, or something if they don't wish to be randomly killed, or have something they can set where they "turn off" pvp for themselves. In case some one doesn't like being attacked randomly, or going afk and dying in a raid. Of course, you can't go to enemy cities free of pvp status or anything, but you get the idea.
NPC's leveling is a cool idea, have guards for a city range from level 20-100 persay, and level up as they defend the town, maybe enemy factions could take advantage of this by slowly killing all the high level guard NPC's around a city, and forcing the game to replace them (hire new guards) with lowbies so they could later attack the city. In Guild Wars there was a great thing you could do, you could hit the level cap in the nub area by going to the highest level monsters in the game after you no longer get xp from them, running up to them, dying, and over time they would actually level. You do this for hours and they hit 20 or so, and now you can level. It took a long time, and few people did this, but just that you can do that is cool.
The quest log thing, Sounds cool how you can write it yourself, but it should be optional. Maybe be able to change quest text so you better understand it, or add notes and footers to it. You should also be able to return quest text to the default in case you messed up with it, though you keep all quest progress.
There should be quests players can do as much as they want, and ones that can only done by one player/group so it seems like an achivement to them. "Did you kill the evil Ice wizard? NO!! YOU CAN'T AHA"
Fully customizable characters, so two of the same classes can be totally different. In Guild Wars a Ranger/Necromancer "touch ranger" couldn't even be compared to a Ranger/Necromancer Trapper. 2 different play styles, 1 same class.
Wanted to say something else but I don't remember... Well sounds really neat, I would help you... but I'm only 14 and a nub at gramming, me and some friends just bought torque and are learning how to use it. Stupid C, with your TWO +'s... Whatever, G'luck man.
#80
Two interesting points made by Timothy Rowe. We get sidetracked on this thread from MMO stories towards gameplay issues, probably because the story of a game always brings the dev's around to the question of "how do you play that game?"
But to get back on track, and addressing the statements above, I think it should be noted that, IMHO, if a quest will be available to everyone, it should be a generic quest. You can't have everyone taking the Ring to Mount Doom, or else Sauron might see a pattern- either that, or the Ring just isn't that powerful. There's a lot of room for Interactive Fiction to fill in the gaps for "everyone quests" in ways that make it seem less canned and more spontaneous. Quests might spawn like MOB's do, so you may not be guaranteed to get a quest when you go to a particular NPC at a certain time. Maybe the quest is continued to you to build on progress made by another character in the game (let them be mentioned in the quest text). Cities need work done in them to keep them going, and if work isn't done, then the city crumbles and other, more drastic, tasks need to be performed to return things to normal. Just a few ideas.
As for the second statement, as far as MMO's go, you really should keep the telling of stories to a minimum. WoW does a cutscene in the begining and leaves it at that, with backstory being filled in by NPC's who are giving quests, which is a nice way to get people involved in the workings of what made the WoW universe what it is. Another thing they do for players who want to know about the history of things is to make some books readable, so that you can actually read up on the history of the lands in WoW at your leisure in the game. Now, if you combined some these two methods of getting the story to the user into a middle ground of, say, seeking out a book that has the knowledge needed to complete a quest, then maybe you can get the player to actively participate in finding out about the world history without it being thrust on him/her during the NPC speech, nor resorting to checking out whatever book is readable when walking around a city bored. I can think of a few kinds of quests that could benefit from the player getting more involved in the story like that.
12/26/2006 (10:59 am)
Quote:I definitely like the idea of having one quest/story-line that every one can be involved in. definitely alot better than everyone having the same to-do list.
I think story is definitely important in a game but games aren't books so we don't want to read them we want to play them. Keep the in game story telling short.
Two interesting points made by Timothy Rowe. We get sidetracked on this thread from MMO stories towards gameplay issues, probably because the story of a game always brings the dev's around to the question of "how do you play that game?"
But to get back on track, and addressing the statements above, I think it should be noted that, IMHO, if a quest will be available to everyone, it should be a generic quest. You can't have everyone taking the Ring to Mount Doom, or else Sauron might see a pattern- either that, or the Ring just isn't that powerful. There's a lot of room for Interactive Fiction to fill in the gaps for "everyone quests" in ways that make it seem less canned and more spontaneous. Quests might spawn like MOB's do, so you may not be guaranteed to get a quest when you go to a particular NPC at a certain time. Maybe the quest is continued to you to build on progress made by another character in the game (let them be mentioned in the quest text). Cities need work done in them to keep them going, and if work isn't done, then the city crumbles and other, more drastic, tasks need to be performed to return things to normal. Just a few ideas.
As for the second statement, as far as MMO's go, you really should keep the telling of stories to a minimum. WoW does a cutscene in the begining and leaves it at that, with backstory being filled in by NPC's who are giving quests, which is a nice way to get people involved in the workings of what made the WoW universe what it is. Another thing they do for players who want to know about the history of things is to make some books readable, so that you can actually read up on the history of the lands in WoW at your leisure in the game. Now, if you combined some these two methods of getting the story to the user into a middle ground of, say, seeking out a book that has the knowledge needed to complete a quest, then maybe you can get the player to actively participate in finding out about the world history without it being thrust on him/her during the NPC speech, nor resorting to checking out whatever book is readable when walking around a city bored. I can think of a few kinds of quests that could benefit from the player getting more involved in the story like that.
Torque Owner Mark Bailey
For example, there's a quest in an imaginary MMO to kill an evil mage in a tower. So you join a group, trundle off to the mage's hideout and kill him. Fantastic, you get your XP and grab a new quest. A few minutes later the mage respawns so that the next lot of players can kill him too. What did you achieve? Nothing really.
Infact if the quest is repeatable, you go and do it again a few hours/days later.
That's the problem, there's no development of a story.
In modelling the real world, there would be repercussions / ramifications for having killed the mage, e.g. would any of his NPC 'followers' attempt to fill his place, would they try and avenge his death or would they just disperse and start up on their own. How would his death affect the ecconomy in surrounding towns, and indirectly globally etc. In short a story would develop from every player action.
It's this lack of realism that ultimately makes all MMOs the same.
Don't get me started on stupid 'run there, kill 10 mobs, return to NPC for XP' type quests. Arrrggghhhhh!!!! They're not quests, they just demonstrate a pure lack of imagination from the developers/designers because they're easy to code.