Game Factory condition system into TGB?
by Ben "Djaggernaut" Chavigner · in Torque Game Builder · 06/08/2006 (9:30 am) · 11 replies
I was playing with TGB and started the Shooter tutorial. Even though it's really well documented and in the end probably not so hard, I was thinking it was taking so much time just to have a ship move in four directions. (so what will I have to do to make a complete game...)
And I remembered the good old Game Factory and its "visual coding" systems.
If TGB could have more of that, like a physic editor (directly offer several possible control over an object) or the condition table, it would make game creation simpler.
It was so easy to use and a game was being prototyped in an hour.
I may understand TGB is accessible for coders and scripters. But when you're exclusively on the art side, prototyping/designing is a lot harder. At some point you can't learn everything :)
It's too unfair :)
My point is, would it be hard to include more "visual coding" in TGB? (there are already lot of them, I know)
I would surely pay an additional 100$ for a Game factory with TGB modern functionalities, many graphist would do the same!
(On a sidenote I'll probably be searching a coding partner to make a game later. See, no freedom for graphists!)
And I remembered the good old Game Factory and its "visual coding" systems.
If TGB could have more of that, like a physic editor (directly offer several possible control over an object) or the condition table, it would make game creation simpler.
It was so easy to use and a game was being prototyped in an hour.
I may understand TGB is accessible for coders and scripters. But when you're exclusively on the art side, prototyping/designing is a lot harder. At some point you can't learn everything :)
It's too unfair :)
My point is, would it be hard to include more "visual coding" in TGB? (there are already lot of them, I know)
I would surely pay an additional 100$ for a Game factory with TGB modern functionalities, many graphist would do the same!
(On a sidenote I'll probably be searching a coding partner to make a game later. See, no freedom for graphists!)
#2
Globally the tool I would like already exist, but it's so outdated. I'm not searching for a miracle "make-my-game-in-one-click" tool (it would lack the creating fun anyway).
Where I say it's unfair, it's just that let's say we got an hour of time. In an hour, a coder can make some simple art. Drawing 3 circles and a curve to make a face is something anyone can do :) It will not look right maybe, but at least it will be usable.
Basically, any human can make a 2D representation of something, we don't need to learn much more than simply live to draw. Only the "quality" will change from one person to an other (depending on knowledge/drawing gift)
But in one hour, if the graphist don't spend dozens of hours studying code/script before, he/she won't create anything usable.
I'm not against teamwork, it's a very interesting experience, but one side lacks the tools to fully test their ideas :)
Bah I know it's a bit utopic but maybe someone is working on a Game factory revival :)
06/08/2006 (1:06 pm)
Hehe, I know it's a common problem and when asking question about that, I don't feel I would be the only person interested.Globally the tool I would like already exist, but it's so outdated. I'm not searching for a miracle "make-my-game-in-one-click" tool (it would lack the creating fun anyway).
Where I say it's unfair, it's just that let's say we got an hour of time. In an hour, a coder can make some simple art. Drawing 3 circles and a curve to make a face is something anyone can do :) It will not look right maybe, but at least it will be usable.
Basically, any human can make a 2D representation of something, we don't need to learn much more than simply live to draw. Only the "quality" will change from one person to an other (depending on knowledge/drawing gift)
But in one hour, if the graphist don't spend dozens of hours studying code/script before, he/she won't create anything usable.
I'm not against teamwork, it's a very interesting experience, but one side lacks the tools to fully test their ideas :)
Bah I know it's a bit utopic but maybe someone is working on a Game factory revival :)
#3
http://www.gamemaker.nl/
Its not as sexy or cool as Torque 2d, but it is great for prototyping.
06/08/2006 (2:33 pm)
I've never used game factory, but have you checked out GameMaker? It is a drag and drop game creation system that is still updated regularly. Pretty much all of you events and code and be defined visually. There are many docs and tutorials on the site, and a full blown book is coming out in a few weeks.http://www.gamemaker.nl/
Its not as sexy or cool as Torque 2d, but it is great for prototyping.
#4
..maybe someone will do it :) although, I'm kind of interested in messing with the idea, but it's just not possible for me to focus on something like that right now.
06/08/2006 (10:36 pm)
I came from the games factory / klik'n play.. and I understand what you're asking. I honestly think it's something that a community member could make, in TGB just using the scripting/gui system, without any engine modifications. It just requires some work and time to do... all you'd be doing is providing a bunch of pre-made chunks of code that are accessable by GUI menus, and you could label things for your class names and whatnot.. and then output .CS files containing the scripts. I've already done similar stuff with a custom level editor before GG added their excellent level builder. ..maybe someone will do it :) although, I'm kind of interested in messing with the idea, but it's just not possible for me to focus on something like that right now.
#5
I think something like this would really help the more "visual" people, but, it's not exactly necessary. Plus while it's a nice idea it will be a LOT of work if all the scripting functionality had to be supported. Unless there were a way to generate it all somehow.... hmmm
06/08/2006 (11:25 pm)
I wrote something similar for my logic engine, a few menus that will affect the output of scripts generated by a save function. Then when a game object is loaded it's script is parsed and these menus are filled in. It's all based on and written in Lua, and very specific to my needs... but the idea is the same.I think something like this would really help the more "visual" people, but, it's not exactly necessary. Plus while it's a nice idea it will be a LOT of work if all the scripting functionality had to be supported. Unless there were a way to generate it all somehow.... hmmm
#6
06/10/2006 (8:44 pm)
Maybe something like Unreal Kismet would work... Shame it's tied to the Unreal Engine and probably patented out the wazoo. From what I've heard, it's rather powerfull for a visual scripting system.
#7
It is overwhelming at the moment though... and has been for a while. I wonder when it'll let up, and I'll feel freedom in my scripting. It all feels so... hidden. Like I need a huge list of hidden passwords to unlock super simple concepts.
While I love the idea of visual scripting, like Virtools or something like that... I'm afraid of relying on it, tying my hands even more when I want to do anything interesting.
Or maybe I'll trade art for code. That seems to be beneficial to everyone.
Whatever I do... I want to get at least a small grasp on the scripting. I can handle the tutorials fine, and it makes sense... I just can't create anything new. I don't even know where to start in the documentation (I look, but never find anything that fits what I want to do). This kind of problem seems to go beyond a need for visual scripting :).
06/11/2006 (11:17 pm)
I'm in the same boat. I'm an artist. It takes hours and hours for me to get done what friends of mine have done in half an hour. I'm not concerned with quality that much either at this point. I just want to make it work. Visual scripting would be a great thing for me, but I also recognize that eventually, I'll run into something visual scripting doesn't handle. At that point, I'll have to do more complex scripting than I would have to do with visual scripting, and I'd more likely be stuck than if I took the time to learn the simple stuff fully first.It is overwhelming at the moment though... and has been for a while. I wonder when it'll let up, and I'll feel freedom in my scripting. It all feels so... hidden. Like I need a huge list of hidden passwords to unlock super simple concepts.
While I love the idea of visual scripting, like Virtools or something like that... I'm afraid of relying on it, tying my hands even more when I want to do anything interesting.
Or maybe I'll trade art for code. That seems to be beneficial to everyone.
Whatever I do... I want to get at least a small grasp on the scripting. I can handle the tutorials fine, and it makes sense... I just can't create anything new. I don't even know where to start in the documentation (I look, but never find anything that fits what I want to do). This kind of problem seems to go beyond a need for visual scripting :).
#8
06/12/2006 (10:57 am)
Oh, one more thing. I will say though, that the visual scripting in Virtools was the only way a friend of mine got into game development. He wasn't a programmer at all, but he was able to put games together for his team. His company has been an IGF finalist for more than one game. So, maybe there IS something in this visual scripting, if done right, and allows one to ease into text scripting. I'm just afraid of it becoming a barrier to the deeper stuff for myself. But the more I think about it, the more I think it fits with the rest of TGB, where it's going more and more visual.
#9
06/12/2006 (2:41 pm)
I've never seen one of those visual scripting systems. What do they look like?
#10
Click here for a script from their most recent game.
Here are a bunch of images of the scripting
He said that 90% of their games are the stock building blocks (VSL Objects, of which there are around 450 of). The images above show the blocks themselves (x__debug_shake.png), and what's inside the blocks (x_vsl.png). The other 10%, they code by hand. Some blocks are very high level (one building block to do complex physics stuff, or control a character, etc), but some are low level (Test BB ("if" statement, basically), other logical stuff). I can definitely see TGB going in this direction. It's amazing that he can toss together 90% of his games this way. I'd LOVE to be able to do that in TGB. He even said that the prototypes and early games are 100% VSL Objects. He can prototype in a day using building blocks, and even the artist can do his own projects.
As an artist, being able to work visually, with premade blocks would be a dream come true. I love TGB though. Virtools has a nice physics engine, but that physics engine is not made for 2D. It has no net code. I also love the interface in TGB. Built around 2D entirely. Virtools does have a browser plugin though, where you can load your games in a browser. I really would like something like that in TGB. Overall, TGB is where it's at. I'm in love with TGB, but I do feel jealousy :). I'm just overwhelmed as an artist.
By the way, Virtools IS more expensive, and you have to buy stuff like Physics and Networking packs separately. But you can also buy an AI pack or Xbox pack, which is cool. TGB is by far a much better value, and is better than Virtools in many ways, even if they were the same price.
06/13/2006 (12:40 am)
My buddy put up some pictures of the graphical scripting in Virtools. Check it out:Click here for a script from their most recent game.
Here are a bunch of images of the scripting
He said that 90% of their games are the stock building blocks (VSL Objects, of which there are around 450 of). The images above show the blocks themselves (x__debug_shake.png), and what's inside the blocks (x_vsl.png). The other 10%, they code by hand. Some blocks are very high level (one building block to do complex physics stuff, or control a character, etc), but some are low level (Test BB ("if" statement, basically), other logical stuff). I can definitely see TGB going in this direction. It's amazing that he can toss together 90% of his games this way. I'd LOVE to be able to do that in TGB. He even said that the prototypes and early games are 100% VSL Objects. He can prototype in a day using building blocks, and even the artist can do his own projects.
As an artist, being able to work visually, with premade blocks would be a dream come true. I love TGB though. Virtools has a nice physics engine, but that physics engine is not made for 2D. It has no net code. I also love the interface in TGB. Built around 2D entirely. Virtools does have a browser plugin though, where you can load your games in a browser. I really would like something like that in TGB. Overall, TGB is where it's at. I'm in love with TGB, but I do feel jealousy :). I'm just overwhelmed as an artist.
By the way, Virtools IS more expensive, and you have to buy stuff like Physics and Networking packs separately. But you can also buy an AI pack or Xbox pack, which is cool. TGB is by far a much better value, and is better than Virtools in many ways, even if they were the same price.
#11
@Ian: I've tried Gamemaker, it's indeed not as sexy as torque, but still it's a nice tool. Globally it takes no time understand how it works. Only for testing though. Thanks for the link :)
I'm afraid visual scripting wouldn't attract more people because TGB has been promoted as an easy tool so far, but still needing scripting skills. So the graphist/beginner customers may not be aware it's a potential tool for them (some graphist use it of course, but they have more courage than others :) ).
Including more editors could already be a first step.
People seems to already think about it: www.garagegames.com/blogs/49241/10686
06/13/2006 (2:57 am)
@Dave: your description is exactly how I feel too. Things looks like they're hidden and unreachable.@Ian: I've tried Gamemaker, it's indeed not as sexy as torque, but still it's a nice tool. Globally it takes no time understand how it works. Only for testing though. Thanks for the link :)
I'm afraid visual scripting wouldn't attract more people because TGB has been promoted as an easy tool so far, but still needing scripting skills. So the graphist/beginner customers may not be aware it's a potential tool for them (some graphist use it of course, but they have more courage than others :) ).
Including more editors could already be a first step.
People seems to already think about it: www.garagegames.com/blogs/49241/10686
Torque Owner Dennis Harrington
My point is that I'm in the same boat as you except I'm a developer who relies on designers for art. Sure, I use Photoshop and 3D apps to create placeholder art and sometimes it looks good enough to be final art. But ultimately I want a specialist to create my art anyway even if it's a little more of a pain.
GG may have a different vision but I really think TGB is meant for developers and I think it should probably stay that way. I mean, Flash is way more intuitive and easy to use than TGB and look how many designers don't know any substantial Actionscript!
I certainly feel your pain as I wish I could get an application that would allow me to create great art without knowing the nitty gritty techniques behind it but that's just not going to happen. Certainly, your request is a lot more doable than mine, though. ;)