Combat Dynamics

#1

Quote:Just saying if we arent doing direct mouse/keyboard swordplay, then having this would provide some interest (rather than some automated system).

Can you explain this as if you were the player in player terms? Like, I mouse clicked and this happened.

When PC games try to emulate play-styles that are familiar in console games, they usually fail. Personally, I hate having a bunch of key macros to do options in games and most mouses (mice?) have only 2 buttons and a scroller. I think it was Richard Garriot who did a great explanation about users interfacing with PC games and that if you can use the most possible actions in the game bu just using the mouse, you have eliminated a lot of frustration on the part of a user.

I kind of like the automated approach, but it can be more than just mousebutton1 attack and mousebutton2 block (defend). The transition conditon matrix can still be applied. The condition of the player's movements can determine which type of attack or defense when the player clicks the appropriate mouse button.

The player is charging.
The player is strafing.
The player is jumping.
The player is retreating.
The player is charging and jumping.
etc. etc.

Basically a system you see in Rune, but increase the matrix and/or make it a little more predictable of the movements that are achievable by the different combinations that would require only 2 mouse buttons and your direction keys.

Maybe you were talking about something totally different and I went out on a tangent. I'm not sure.

#2 hmm.. Maybe mouse 0 when held in would activate an attack mode wich the melee weapon you are holding(blended animations) would swing with the mouse to chop away at your enemy and mouse 1 would block while your enemy chops at you. This would allow you aim your swings. If anyone has played "Die by the sword" you'll have an Idea of what I am trying to explain.


Just an Idea

Bruce

#3 Well, thats a "real time chopping" style. Doesnt really leave a lot of room for combinations of moves.

All it is is mouse1 = hit mouse 2 = block.

Not exactly stunningly exciting combat :))

I was talking about something part turn based, part realtime..

But I dunno if its fun! :)

Phil.

#4 How can we allow for a combination of moves and still allow it to be simple and get away from turned based? Fighting games on consoles have when certain combination of buttons are pressed would perform what appears to be a certain combination of moves. But RW is not a fighting game in that sense and doesn't need to be as advanced as that.

Let's stick with the direction and mouse buttons for a second again. Each action takes a certain time to complete. If a player was jumping in the air towards a target and hits the attack button and then the defend button and tries to move back, can not that make a combination of moves that seem like they would flow together? And this is still not taking into the mouse movement, which can be used to further enhance the matrix of moves.

You bring up turn based, but even in turn based games I don't see that much allowance in combo moves. It's usually one person performs an action and then waits for his next turn of action.

I think you hit it on the point "will it be fun." I guess we don't know until people implement the different ideas and test them out. I was just trying to work with your idea and keep it real time slashing with the appearance of combos instead of going to turn based.

#5 This depends on how strategic you plan on making things. I'm not at all a fan of having to press a lot of button combinations. In fact, that's why I hate fighting games. Slapping my hand on the keyboard does not equate fun.

Now, if you mean that when one player makes an overhead strike (high power), you can more easily attack with a faster forward thrust (low power). That was actually part of a new game idea I posted about a few minutes ago in the idea forum. Simply pressing "attack" over and over again hoping you'll hit something gets old. Actually being forced to compensate for attacks with your own strategy is something I thought I had invented. ^^ Then again, all my ideas seem to have been thought of... oh well.

Anyway, I wouldn't make it a central part of the game, as having things focused so much on strategy as complicated and sometimes frustrating as this can leave a player tired. Players operating under this condition will get tired of the game unless there's something easier to use, which will be overused because it's not as complicated.

#6 i dunno anymore, my head hurts from trying to figure out how to design a fighting system that isnt too deep or shallow, complex or simple. its hard

#7 Look at Soul Calibur. That has muliple moves, but no required "button mashing" like in ALL of the 2d fighting games, and most of the more fantasy ones.

Four buttons and 8 directions turns into hundreds of moves. None are hard to pull off, and they all have many uses.

In a game like Marvel versus Capcom, you have to memorize 5 button combos and complex and awkward moves that'd normally require three hands and four thumbs.

A little bit of design could create a simple soul calibuer-esque system, and allow for much more complex fights without the need to remember endless button combinations.

#8 I was actually thinking along the lines of a semi-turn based console style system. Its hard to explain, but bear with me.


In a console system, its usually a combination of keypresses that determine if one moves "combines" with another.

Up -> Left might combo with -> up -> up -> right to do two or three moves. I like this combining.

What it means is that you have some strategy for fighing, and also blocking.

So, now imagine the same system, but with each move timed not in millionths of a second (like button mashing) but in say, 10ths, or even half a second intervals.

You'd get the strategy, but also it would allow you to que up a bunch of moves, and let that fly. So i could que up say 5 moves in my half a second, which would be high punch, low punch, leg sweep, block low, block high.

Also, the opponent would be doing the same in thier half second.

We submit these combo's as they happen, so theyre running in realtime, but actually are sumitted in steps.

Default do-nothing move would be block middle.

I hope this gets a bit clearer. I have an interface I think could make it clearer to the user by using pictures of the figure doing the different moves.

One thing I was also trying to explain is that some moves will not combine with others. So you could only make a very flowing attack, not something where you go from leg sweep to overhead kick instantly.

Again, it might be that we'd be looking at just a mouse slashing interface. This is just one method that "might" work ok :))

I'd like to try it at least :)) but that'd require a lot of special moves and a player model.

Phil.

#9 i agree that not all moves should be available from all other moves.

the problem with useing movement keys for combat moves is you cant move and fight independently, at least not easily. your movement keys should control your movement, other keys for attacking. phil, other than the turn based part i think we are thinking along similar lines. when i envision moves, i think they take a half to two seconds tops. during that time, youre locked in unless you choose to pull out. feints are another critical fighting move. if you cant fake an attack, it takes a lot of the realism away.

and sorry, not familiar with soul caliber.

#10 I understand what you're going for Phil, but blocking was so successful in Soul Calibur because it was real-time.

You could see what was coming, and in that split second return the shot with a well-timed parry.

With this system it'd be a guessing game.

Either way, it's going to require a lot of extra animations to look decent. Of course, that wouldn't be my problem :p

#11 Here is a similiar idea but based on a real time combat situation.

Left Mouse Button uses weapon 1
Right Mouse Button uses weapon 2 (if applicable)

You have a selection key for each weapon

You can change you selection for each weapon once every second. For a sword that selection might be as follows:
- Block
- Parry
- Riposte
- Overhead Slash
- Stab
- Side Slash
etc

For a shield it might be
- Block
- Shield smash

for a two handed axe it might be
- Block
- Overhead Slash
- Side Slash

In this way we see two things come about
1) Using two weapons require more use agility
2) Use of sword and shield or duwl weapons possible
3) If a person decides early what he is going to do he will be able to change selection and attack again earlier, but may choose wrongly.
4) If a person waits to the last second to choose his selection, he will no doubt counter the other player, but will be at a disadvantage attack wise.
5) Allows for realistic, fast paced action without the need for button mashing.
6) Allows certain abilitys/attacks to not be avaiable until certain level is reached

Here is a combat example
Player A has a Sword and Shield, Player B has a two handed axe.

B selects overhead slash and moves towards A and A selects block for his shield and stab for his sword. B attacks with his overhead swing and A blocks with shield but the position makes a stab attack impossible.

A changes his sword selection to block and shield selection to smash. B changes to side slash. B attacks again and A blocks with his sword. He then smashes his shield into B knocking him backwards and causing damage.

A changes sword into overhead slash and B changes to block. A attcks and B blocks with axe. A tries to smash with shield again but cannot due to overhead slash preventing it.

B changes to overhead slash
A attacks with slash again but B sidesteps and then attacks. A forogt to change his shield to block so he cops a nasty assed axe in his head :P


I think it could work....

#12 The problem I see now this low, middle, and upper melee attacks is that in the view frustrum of games made with the torque engine don't make player models larger enough to determine the different types of attacks in that way. Other FPS games such as UT, CS or the like you do get a view where you can do this easy. But not in games they have a view similair to Tribes2. Maybe it's just my opinion, and people can see better than me.

#13 I think that this would just be dependant on the model. Designing it so the eye point is positioned such that you can see the players hands/weapons.

#14 I wrote out my thoughts and formatted it for the web. I've played the FPS genre along time and have found there is a common thread to the style of gameplay found in the genre, regardless of the actual game, that is fairly common. Its generally this commonality in the gameplay that tends to obstruct a "melee" feel inside the game. I based my ideas on my experiences playing many FPS and believe these ideas should work well without taking too much away from that which makes the typical FPS fun.


Melee Combat for Realm Wars


PS. if you minimize the little popup window, it doesn't keep returning and makes things less annoying.

#15 Sounds good, but there are some thoughts I have here...

Considering the melee system of attacking, how will it work exactly? Will you be able to lock on to another player and enter combat so that you will no longer have to move accordingly, or will the attacks be based on where you are looking? For instance, if this was the case, I could have an enemy standing in front of me and made a left slash accidentally, but quickly shift my view so that it would work the same as a right slash.

In the locking system, would you stop movement entirely? In other words, you run up to another player, hit the attack button, and movement stops. Then, the d-pad combonations are not used for movement but only for attacking and defensive manuevers. I would personally take this over a non-locking system, as factors like terrain heighth, which view you're using, whether or not your attacks can be manipulated by your perspective all come into play.

But, if this was based on the locking system that allows movement (in the Nintendo 64 version of Zelda for instance) then you could center your perspective to be always on your target, but you could still move as well. This is my favorite system of melee combat. If anyone played Zelda:OoT for N64, you should understand what I mean by my description. I have to say my favorite fight in this game was when I came across a clone of myself, the only opponent in the game that used a sword and shield as well as myself. I had to use a variety of techniques to get by his defenses, and that was the most fun I had in the game.

That's the sort of combat I'd like to see at least.

[edit]: I don't like the idea of being stunned or disoriented, or the idea of having combos or special techniques.

My reasoning for the stunned status is that when players encounter this in a game, it gets very annoying for everyone. I've encountered things like this and people always walk away from it thinking, "I wish that wasn't the case so I could actually play without interference." I've even seen the people it benefits stop and wait until it goes away because they're just as annoyed, and feel it takes away from the game.

My reasoning behind disliking combos and techniques is that I feel melee combat should be just that: physical combat. People will begin to compromise how they fight because they want to pull off a special move, and end up making unnecessary mistakes. Eventually, it becomes so much of an obsession that gameplay is compromised by the players because they want to forget the simple moves and do everything "special." Once again, I've seen this happen. Magic outside of melee combat is wonderful, but special moves other than strategic manuevers within melee combat beget confusion and compromisations. I'd keep things simple, because there's a lot of room to expand outside of melee. Keep that simple and make a lot more simple things with variety and you'll have a winner. Just because a player has a lot of options doesn't mean people will like it. In fact, if you make things too complicated, players start abandoning other aspects of it. Simple excess power moves like an overhead slash (which you mentioned "dash+attack[held]") are great, but things like "left slash+right slash+overhead attack" are just worthless.

#16 You certainly put a lot of thought and effort into that document.

In my opinion, I love the idea of the attack direction being determined by the movement keys rather than by the mouse. It certainly removes the problem of the height of attacks.

The mana/stamina idea I also think is awesome. You could have a system where the amount of damage produced by a blow was dependant upon the players stamina (and likewise the success of a block)

The idea of the differing forward, side and reverse speeds was also a good idea.

I thought (and this is just my opinion) that the game moves sounded too complicated though. The idea of moving forward, pressing jump and double tapping fire all at once gives me a headache just thinking about it.

I do think that we need a simple way to select your attack and block type prior to the event taking place to ensure the combatants thought process and not mearly a mashing of keys. I reckon we also need to keep the game in an action combat and not turn based so that players with faster characters and skilled combatants will have an advantage, simply due to their abilitys.

#17 Use a GUI for special attacks. Have buttons fire up all the required animation etc.

#18 Thought about using a gesture system? Left-click and drag your mouse in a particular gesture for an attack move, right-click and drag your mouse in a different gesture for a defense move. It worked for Black & White, didn't it?

(okay, so B&W had the option of clicking on a spell as well)

#19 Well, on the idea of combat control, here is the idea that the staff in our company has come up with:


Ill start with mouse ideas:
Left Mouse: Action for left arm
Right Mouse: Action for right arm
Mouse 3: ?
Mouse Wheel: Scroll targets
Mouselook

Then to movement:
W: Forward
A: Left
S: Down
D: Right
Space: Jump
E: Use/Action

Now, To combat:
Have the movement keys work in conjunction with the mouse. This means for example, run forward with W, then hit L-Mouse and that would perform a sword jab. OR - Run forward with W, and hit R-Mouse and this would cause you to do a shield bash (or something like that). Double-tapping movement keys would allow you to hop in that specified direction, and the conjunction of keys would correspond with different blocks, attacks, parrys, and dodges. To the new player -- this could work as single strikes and such. To the advanced player, a combonation of different keys could perform combos pertaining to whatever you pressed.
Example:
W-W-LM would by an overhead chop
A-A-LM would be a sidestep slice
W-W-RM would be a frontal charging block
A-A-RM would be a block to your right side
W-W-RM to W-W-LM to A-A-LM would be a block to a stab to a quick hop to the side and a cross-slash.
/Example

Get the picture? :)

This setup could achieve huge levels of skill development, coupled with different weapon types, and two weapon style, or two handed style -- could allow a vast array of attacks and blocks to choose from.

This would force the player to develop this skill, and after a while -- dispatching many opponents in a few precision movements would be easy.


James Hamar

#20 PLEASE do not do that... I loathe key combonations like that. Stick with forward + attack as a thrust, left + attack as a left swipe, etc. If you want it straight out of the horses' mouth, most of my friends play games like this and they all hate button combonations. Putting them in a first person shooter is a deathwish. If you disagree, I could go out and make a petition about it and come back with some signatures.

Basically, having combos that deal with two keys being pressed at once is ideal. Having to press the same key more than once or memorize combos using more than two keys are a big no-no. If I have to use a combo that involves hitting forward, letting go of it and hitting left, and then using my attack button, I'd just assume forget the game. It isn't skill, it's just annoying. If you do that, you're going to have a ton of players saying "screw melee, I'm using ranged weapons."

Also, one thing to consider is to be able to have a lock button, so you can place your crosshairs on another player and hit it so that you won't have to cycle around to target that person.