T2D (TGB) License

#1 1. The Torque Game Builder automatically packages up your game and includes only the compiled scripts. I'm pretty sure that every game developer does not want to release their uncompiled scripts. Not much optimization needed. TDN article about packaging a game


2. Any person on your team that is working with the source code or scripts has to have a TGB license. Which means, that you can have as many people working on your game, as long as they have a TGB license.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about feeling limited by the TGB license. Could you explain that more, and then maybe I can address some of your concerns.

#2 1) This is to protect fundamental functionality of the engine itself. Since everything is designed specifically to not require source code access (completely scripting only, along with the level builder), allowing people to release scripts to the general public could in many ways allow people to simply create their own 2D engine. This isn't going to change any time in the near future. (And don't read into that...it's not planned to change at all, nor has it been discussed seriously).

2) What makes you think you can't have more than one person working on a game? You simply need to have licenses for them. If you mean that you "can't have more than one person using one license at once", that's not changed at all from TGE.

If the name change hurt you so bad that TGB is unusual for you, then you have a very unusual perspective on what is important to producing a quality game, but that's just my personal opinion! Buy a commercial license set and you never even need to mention what engine was used to make your game...

#3 @ Ricky: "I feel that now T2D is pretty much worthless to me...
Shame about all the work Melv & Crew have put into it."

Wow... that's a really big statement.
Worthless?

I don't like the name either, I still call it T2D :),
but in practice, the name or the current license rules don't make TGB a lesser engine.
T2D is a great tool.

But yes, I have no idea what your plans were, so no idea how much it can be worth to you.
I hope you will eventualy find it useful.

#4 Yeah, I hate the name but I understand the reasons behind everything else.

#5 $100 per programmer/scripter on a game project in TGB is definately not expensive... especially considering the tools you get and the potential you have with the engine. Most tools that have a fraction of what you get in TGB cost more and are also per programmer/scripter.

#6 I agree that TGB is extremely cheap and a wonderful value for what you get. I think Garage Games is doing us all a great favor by making these tools available at a price that even a highschool student, college student, hobbiest, just about anyone can afford. I'm not saying that everyone has $100 to spend on an engine at anytime but if you're heart is set on developing games you'll find a way to pay for the licence. Anyways, thank you GG for enabling us aspiring developers.

as far as the name goes... I agree T2D is a cooler name. I also think it's more discriptive of what the product does. TGB says "this product is for making games" but by the name alone you don't know what kind of engine it is.

#7 Well, just to run this past you:

For TGE you only need one license per source code developer AFAIK, and I have checked, only reason I bought TGE.

3D development is cheaper than 2D?

And on the worthless statement, I'd rather not release a game at all than something with "Builder" in the name.*

*Ive already written why, go find some TGB v T2D threads....

Cheap? Im a freaking 15 year old.... Where am I supposed to get money from? Mmm?

Also

I fail to see the script thing. I think that you could make a game with TGE without source access fine. (Considering you knew the script API).

You may say that to do anything interesting for TGE you need source, I think that the same applies for T2D.

Concerning Scripts...

I wouldn't release core scripts. But on the other hand I'd hate to release a game you couldn't mod. Everything I program is dynamic.

You'd release the source for a simple addon. And see where the community gets it... Mmmm?

Worst Case Scenario:

* Someone over-mods game.
* Fun, they can't release it.
* GG doesnt loose money because if they want to publish it they have to buy T2D.

#8

Quote:Cheap? Im a freaking 15 year old.... Where am I supposed to get money from? Mmm?

Working?

The idea of not releasing the scripts is pretty straight forward. If you were to release some part or all of your script source code, which may include the Level Builder, GUI Editor, Particle Editor, Tile Map Editor, etc, then whoever got your source code would be very much able to create a 2D game.

Even if you were to allow your users to access say 5% of your source code, and every other developer allowed 5% to be viewed, then after 20 people releasing their code, you would have TGB - OK, so that may not be realistic, but it could happen.

You paid (well, all TGB licensees paid) $100 or $80 to get a license to the engine. I wouldn't be too happy if a person was to release a game with 100% of the script sourcecode, and allow somebody, who hadn't paid, to
access TGB, and create a game, or whatever they might do.

Here is part of the EULA which states:

Quote:(e) Licensee may not distribute uncompiled script code which defines any Torque 2D-specific functionality, including but not limited to creating or mainpulating sprites, tiles, particle effects, etc, in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.

Basically, you can't distribute script source code that is uncompiled that contains anything related to T2D, which doesn't nessesarely mean you can't distribute some uncompiled script bits, if it is only to do with your game. (Someone might want to correct me here.)

Quote:* Someone over-mods game.
* Fun, they can't release it.
* GG doesnt loose money because if they want to publish it they have to buy T2D.

It doesn't mean that they will not release it, if they don't own a license. Some people just don't care, and will use such illegal, or un-lawful means, to do things.


Hope that helps,
Tom.

#9 Ricky:

If you want to add mod-ability to your game, more power too you! You can, too, but with the following constraints: You have to define the interfaces that your gamers can mod. Gamers cannot create or know how to create any t2d* objects, but that doesn't matter. Suppose you are building a game that uses vehicles. Define a script class:

Vehicle::drive() { } // implements the behavior for driving;
Vehicle::turn() { }
Vehicle::stop() { }
Vehicle::collide() { }
Vehicle::explode() { }

to create a new kind of "vehicle" I have to implement this interface. If you want to allow people to change the art, provide a callback that creates the underlying t2dImageMapDataBlock:

Vehicle::setImage(%filename);

What you can't do is document: to create a new kind of vehicle, simply create a new t2dStaticSprite and a t2dImageMapDataBlock, as follows...

The reality is, this is how game modding is done anyway. In the id and valve engines, they don't give you the source code to their engine. They give you the source code to the script parts. In TGB, half the source code is the script interfaces. Just because you (or your friends) can't afford $100 doesn't entitle you to handing out the intellectual property that Melv, Justin, and crew worked so hard to build. As I mentioned, it doesn't mean you can't build your OWN level builder or your OWN script interfaces, which, under the covers uses the t2d APIs... just don't reveal or give away the TGB intellectual property.

This is really pretty simple.

Also, regarding the name change from T2D to TGB... honestly... would you like some cheese with your whine? It's just a frick'in name. If you build a kick ass game and people can't see it for what it is because it says "Torque Game Builder", then that's pretty pathetic. I don't think of PopCap as pathetic, but guess what... it's just FLASH for God's sake. FLASH isn't coding! That must mean PopCap games suck? Oh wait, Bejeweled and Zuma are pretty damn cool.

#10 Well put Tom. Tom has laid out some very good points and responses.

I'll also add that TGB is a completely different engine than TGE. TGB is a 2D game engine that is being designed to be as open as possible to script just about any type of game you can. Some games require source modification, but it is entirely possible to create multiple types of game with just script. TGE is a first and third person FPS engine. You can create other types of games without modifying the source, but they will be horribly inefficient. In TGE you really need to modify the source to either add or remove things that you need or don't need. TGB on the other hand is designed very much differently, trying to solve some of the issues that are encountered with TGE. To understand this you also need to understand the history of TGE and GarageGames (which you may). That it was the engine behind Tribes 2 and has been modified, upgraded, and configured massively, but still in its heart has a lot of the same core. It has a built in (source side) health system, energy sytem, FPS "Player" concept, Vehicle concepts, etc. When you start to make something else out of it you realize that it isn't exactly 'hard' to modify the engine to do other games, but the modification is still required.

TGB has none of the assumptions and built in systems TGE has. Instead it has a much more easily customizable framework for adding these things. Since most games will be different this makes more sense for a more universal game engine. Thats why there is a Level Builder and not a game maker tool.

Just like TGB is so dramatically different than TGE, the rules, guidelines, and motivation behinds these are of the same concern. TGE was the core of Tribes 2, a highly modifiable game. The scripting language was made to create the gameplay; however, as I have discussed to change the gameplay from its root FPS (or Third Person Shooter) would require engine changes on top of it. This is why it is safe to allow the release of those scripts. In TGB the scripts are designed to be able to drive just about any game, so if you release the scripts then your customers will potentially be able to make an entire new game out of TGB... this means that you will have paid $100 for nothing, since your users would be able to pay your game's price for access to the same engine. Hopefully you can understand the reasoning behind things.

#11 @Jason: well said.

#12 @Jason: I realize that it's beside the primary point of this thread but I have to take exception with your generalization of Flash. My day job is as a Flash Developer and I create some pretty complex stuff that would be impossible to do if Flash "wasn't coding" as you state. I realize it's human nature to think that "mine is better than yours" but come on, man.

Also, the PopCap framework is not Flash. It's basically a C++ library that deals with the low-level stuff so you can focus on the actual game development but the programming is done in C++ and not a scripting language. This means that Bejeweled and Zuma were not done in Flash.

#13 PERFECT! Thank you Dennis for PROVING my point. (my snarkiness was intentional). I wanted to see if anyone would knee jerk and say "FLASH IS CODING!"... Well, guess what, TGB is coding too, and both are worthy of respect... even if TGB stands for "Builder".

#14 LOL, pretty sneaky sis!

Good one, man. I walked right into it. ;)

#15 Just my 2 cents.

I actually agree with Ricky in some points. I have an artist working in a project in Blender. She is able to export her work and check it in show tool or see it in action in TGE. But the same workflow doesn't apply to T2D cause she would have to have a license in order to use the editors and she wouldn't be "coding" at all.

The T2D license also prevents books like 3DGPAIO to appear. Ed Maurina's latest book began as a free TGE tutorial. It matured and now is a finished product. That won't happen in T2D. You won't be able to profit later from a tutorial you create for it.

T2D isn't really cheap. I'm 35 and I invested hard worked money in it. If it's hard for a 15yo to have this money, it's also hard for me to use it instead of buying something my 2yo daughter would use. Please note that I'm not complaining about that. I see it as an investment. But Ricky has a point.

IMHO, the license differences from TGE and T2D are just BAD MARKETING. 2D tecnology isn't that hot nowadays. You may easily use Allegro to create a 2D game. T2D provides you with a major hadicap, yes it does, but it's not the only techlogy availble, nor is it the easiest to use.

OTOH T2D could be an entry point fot TGE and TSE custommers, specially in the academic world. You want to learn game programming ? Start with T2D, than put another dimension onto it.

OK, someone may easily create a game with stock T2D if it were distributed as TGE. So what ? Let them do it. A 2D game is mostly IDEA and ART. A yeti hitting a penguin. There isn't much "state of the art" programming behind it. It's not like leaving gunshots marks in a wall so it won't create a stress in a rendering thread an yet create a realistic effect.

But the main problem isn't doing the 2D game, it's distributing the game. How much would you pay for the penguin game ? $5 bucks ?

I really suggest that T2D should be marketed as TGE, or at least have a smalller price tag. Sell it for $25 bucks a piece and you'l have thousands of developers, 15yo or greater.

#16

Quote:2D tecnology isn't that hot nowadays. You may easily use Allegro to create a 2D game.

The trend shows that the casual game market is growning very fast. So 2D technology is much hotter than you make it out to be. Ask Popcap and Reflexive how much they make on selling their framework.

Also, they could use Allegro to create a 2D game, but with a much sharper learning curve. TorqueScript is leaps and bounds more simple than learning C++. Then after learning C++, they'd have to learn the engine.

Quote:OK, someone may easily create a game with stock T2D if it were distributed as TGE. So what ? Let them do it. A 2D game is mostly IDEA and ART. A yeti hitting a penguin.

You would have a point if these were the only types of games you could make with TGB, but they're not. You can create very rich and complex games because you're working with a very rich and complex engine. Write a platform game, or write a Gish type game, and then tell me if you still feel that a 2D game is just an idea and art. There is a need for complex game logic as well. Let's just say I disagree with you here.

If you're concerned about your artist adding art, then write a couple of interface functions to allow them to load that art.

#17 Bruno, I really think you're downplaying the value of 2D games these days as well as the complexity of some of them. Look at Age of Empires, Diablo II, Viewtiful Joe, etc. Those are much more than just art and idea.

As to your artist issue. For one you can create placeholder .dts object in your game demo (or images for that matter) and then have your artist simply switch out the files and test your game. This is how many things work anyways, also this is how we did a lot of MightyFist. Especially since we had very little time to script/code it (we're working full blown on TGB) so the artist (Eric Elwell) created placeholders so I could plug them in and he could just switch them out later. This is a good work flow and also solves your problem.

"T2D isn't really cheap"

Well this is 100% relative. What perspective are you saying that in. Is it in comparisson to other game development tools... like Photoshop (alone - $649, suite standard - $899 premium - $1199), or even a tool you mentioned games developed in, like flash ($699). If you are then I am completely confused because the $100 price tag is so much less than these other tools. I guess you've probably sent an e-mail to Adobe about its outrageous prices on Photoshop and Flash? Especially considering they use the basic software license rules, these pieces of software disallow you from buying one copy and letting multiple people use it... why ? well for one it's the standard, and secondly because its software piracy.

I've already explained some of the differences between TGE and TGB, so I won't go down that road again.

#18 Right... I just want to point something out.

DISCLAIMER: Im ill today, so I may say something stupid, or what I say may now flow.

People who say "Flash isn't coding" need to hit in ActionScript into google and look at the 59,600,000 odd results. I dont dislike flash....

There are applications like Game Maker, (All with cheesy names... =/ ), that promise that you can make your game without a line of code. ($20 / Free)

My grampa gave me a copy of Klick and Create (Nowdays the Games Factory [link]http://clickteam.com/English/tgf.htm[/link]) .... A lovely example of game engines I hate. $29 for it... But it doesnt require any knowledge of coding before hand.

Then you have the other end of things... Like Haaf's Game Engine... Its all gfx and you need a lot of C++ knowledge beforehand. ($125 I beleive...)

But T2D is trying to be "The Games Factory", just harder to use.

Now, I prefered the T2D pre-beta series. Why? Because of the way my games work. I had all the tools under F keys and I had TorqueDev for the code.

Now apparently there is no way to access the particle editor w/o using the level editor... Design flaw?

Soon the only way to make games with T2D will be the Level Editor, because you dont have the source, and wont be able to use the tools without it.

Now, I wasnt saying that T2D wasnt good value for money, because it is, the lisence IMO just needs to be altered. Everyone has glossed over what I said.

T2D and TGE can both make games out of the box.

But they wont make good games without editing the source.

2D may not be dead, but I've seen enough "TETRIS" clones for a lifetime.

#19 Um, who said that TGB is trying to be exactly like The Games Factory? The level builder is simply a tool for TGB which allows for a much easier, faster, more inutuive way to get art and content into your game. Terms like art pipeline, content pipeline, workflow, are pretty important in game development and plenty of products are/have been developed which try to make these things easier and faster. (like constructor for TGE)

I would be very suprised if the level builder allowed anything more than the current simple physics simulations as "games" without requiring a large part of your game logic to be written in Torquescript or C++. I still spend 90% of my time looking at what's on the screen in Torsion, not the level builder. But am I glad to have the level builder? You bet. And we'll always have the source to the engine, it even says so on the product page. :)

Anyway, in regards to the particle editor, it's not a design flaw. It's been integrated into the level builder with the great ability now to create particle effects via graphs. Huge improvement over the previous editor, much more visual. It is prefect as it is in Beta 2? Nope, there's still things missing, like the ability to create a new particle effect instead of just editing existing ones, but that will come. This, and everything else GG is working hard on, is to help us - just like they say in their slogan - Make it fast, make it fun.

#20 If you don't like the editors, don't bother with them. In my current project I don't need them, so I've ripped them all out. I'm doing everything via script, including configuring particle effects. Some things are a bit of a chore, but on the whole I'm doing alright.

But then for my next project, the editors will definately be useful (lining up tilemaps, putting enemy sprites/spawn points in the right place and so-on), so I'll use them. That's one of the best bits of TGB, use the bits you want, ignore the bits you don't.

Personally, I'm a hobby-coder. I know I'm not very good at it, and I doubt I'll ever release a game that I'll feel is good enough to charge money for, so sticking 'made with TGB' in the game somewhere is no real hardship. And currently, the EULA hasn't been updated, so you can still put 'made with T2D' in the game and completely ignore the TGB name change.

3D games aren't dead either, but I've seen more than enough generic FPS to last me several lifetimes.