Sex, Violence, and Representation in Games
by Alan H · in General Discussion · 04/20/2006 (9:21 am) · 57 replies
Hi everyone,
This thread is being started due to the turn of discussion on Jon's blog for Ninja's vs Pirates ( http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/56310/10299 ). To sum it up, I took offense, at the female model sketches and jumped on my high horse made remarks about it. Jon responded and said a couple things that did give me pause. Todd expanded the conversation and we suggested moving it here so Jon's blog could get back on track. I also apologized to Jon for how my remarks came across.
So, if I may take liberty to cut and paste unedited the 4 posts to kick off this thread:
I said:
"It's so nice that your not learning from the mistakes of the mainstream game community and continuing the over sexualizaiton of females so you can alienate potentially 50% of the possible player base (aka female gamers). The time for "Laura Croft" female characters is over. If you want to be taken seriously as a mature and in touch developer and not as a bunch of immature horny geek teenagers who can't find a girlfriendyou ought to tone down the female assets. But then I'm sure you'll just chalk this up as a "rant" and continue on even though you could make it a female friendly and still be "fun". As an indie we all ought to be making our games accessible to the as many potential players as possible.
I'd also suggest you read Gender Inclusive Game Design by Sheri Graner Ray if you have no idea where I'm coming from.
As a veteran gamer, husband, and father to a little girl I won't be buying this if that's how women will be represented. Sorry. I was really looking forward to buying this too."
N.R responded:
"Thanks for your opinion, Alan. I am a husband and the father of four boys... not an oversexed teenager. I acknowledge where you're coming from and maybe its a mistake to have large-breasted women in today's over-saturated market. But I don't think it is. And you're right, I do think your post is a rant.
On a personal note if you want sink deep in the political correctness of the female dominated value system that drives nearly every market know to man, go right ahead. But Jon laid out a number of features for NvP when I first signed on and sucking up to majority rule wasn't one of them. He wants to make a fun game that has a variety of characters that players can relate to and yes one of them is a beautiful, elegant woman... with large breasts.
Aside from my personal appreciation for the female form I guarantee Ninjs versus Pirates won't suffer from a lack of beta-testers or retail purchasers because one of its female characters has a little bounce in her stride."
I apologized - (the post ended up after Todd's)
Todd posted:
All kidding aside,
The question of the level of "sexuality" in any aspect of a games design is something that should be taken seriously and carefully considered.
However, it is probably a subject worthy of its own thread. In fact I think it would be a good and worth while discussion which is not explored often or seriously enough.
@ Alan, you seem to feel very strongly about it. But I would have to challenge you with the question that you seem to be far more concerned about the size of a characters breast, than the fact that the game is about running around and killing each other in all manner and fashion.
Clearly this game is not targeted at 10 year olds. The character don't do anything even remotely sexual in the game. Would you feel better if the same character were carrying 70 pound of fat? Or how about the heroin thin look of most models and starlets today?
I am not trying to take any shots here, just asking you to clarify you thoughts in case I misunderstand you, or explore them a little further.
(continued)
This thread is being started due to the turn of discussion on Jon's blog for Ninja's vs Pirates ( http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/56310/10299 ). To sum it up, I took offense, at the female model sketches and jumped on my high horse made remarks about it. Jon responded and said a couple things that did give me pause. Todd expanded the conversation and we suggested moving it here so Jon's blog could get back on track. I also apologized to Jon for how my remarks came across.
So, if I may take liberty to cut and paste unedited the 4 posts to kick off this thread:
I said:
"It's so nice that your not learning from the mistakes of the mainstream game community and continuing the over sexualizaiton of females so you can alienate potentially 50% of the possible player base (aka female gamers). The time for "Laura Croft" female characters is over. If you want to be taken seriously as a mature and in touch developer and not as a bunch of immature horny geek teenagers who can't find a girlfriendyou ought to tone down the female assets. But then I'm sure you'll just chalk this up as a "rant" and continue on even though you could make it a female friendly and still be "fun". As an indie we all ought to be making our games accessible to the as many potential players as possible.
I'd also suggest you read Gender Inclusive Game Design by Sheri Graner Ray if you have no idea where I'm coming from.
As a veteran gamer, husband, and father to a little girl I won't be buying this if that's how women will be represented. Sorry. I was really looking forward to buying this too."
N.R responded:
"Thanks for your opinion, Alan. I am a husband and the father of four boys... not an oversexed teenager. I acknowledge where you're coming from and maybe its a mistake to have large-breasted women in today's over-saturated market. But I don't think it is. And you're right, I do think your post is a rant.
On a personal note if you want sink deep in the political correctness of the female dominated value system that drives nearly every market know to man, go right ahead. But Jon laid out a number of features for NvP when I first signed on and sucking up to majority rule wasn't one of them. He wants to make a fun game that has a variety of characters that players can relate to and yes one of them is a beautiful, elegant woman... with large breasts.
Aside from my personal appreciation for the female form I guarantee Ninjs versus Pirates won't suffer from a lack of beta-testers or retail purchasers because one of its female characters has a little bounce in her stride."
I apologized - (the post ended up after Todd's)
Todd posted:
All kidding aside,
The question of the level of "sexuality" in any aspect of a games design is something that should be taken seriously and carefully considered.
However, it is probably a subject worthy of its own thread. In fact I think it would be a good and worth while discussion which is not explored often or seriously enough.
@ Alan, you seem to feel very strongly about it. But I would have to challenge you with the question that you seem to be far more concerned about the size of a characters breast, than the fact that the game is about running around and killing each other in all manner and fashion.
Clearly this game is not targeted at 10 year olds. The character don't do anything even remotely sexual in the game. Would you feel better if the same character were carrying 70 pound of fat? Or how about the heroin thin look of most models and starlets today?
I am not trying to take any shots here, just asking you to clarify you thoughts in case I misunderstand you, or explore them a little further.
(continued)
About the author
#42
so you only have it against nobody's like me then?! eh!? I read thru the subtexty thing... or... whatever it's called!!!
Just kidding. :P
04/21/2006 (1:11 am)
@Slayerso you only have it against nobody's like me then?! eh!? I read thru the subtexty thing... or... whatever it's called!!!
Just kidding. :P
#43
Yes women are being oppressed or exploited. But what is wrong with a woman WILLINGLY posing nude for an artist to paint her? We all know the female body is MM MMM GOOD.
But then you have the girls who are getting their asses whooped and raped all the time. And I say if you are going to get pee'd off over SOMETHING, at least make it something worthwhile.
As for human impulses, I hate to say it, but not every mentally ill rapist knows about right from wrong. There are people with issues in the world, and they are usually the ones doing stupid crap.
04/21/2006 (5:35 am)
Anton I understand your concerns. I just find it completely strange and pointless that someone would get offended over something so simple.Yes women are being oppressed or exploited. But what is wrong with a woman WILLINGLY posing nude for an artist to paint her? We all know the female body is MM MMM GOOD.
But then you have the girls who are getting their asses whooped and raped all the time. And I say if you are going to get pee'd off over SOMETHING, at least make it something worthwhile.
As for human impulses, I hate to say it, but not every mentally ill rapist knows about right from wrong. There are people with issues in the world, and they are usually the ones doing stupid crap.
#44
I don't have any problems with sex or nudity at all. I am saying why there is a kneejerk reaction to sex and nudity in the USA and why it's not coming out of nowhere. I am very against oppression and exploitation. I certainly don't think a curvy game character is either.
Now... raping and beating women in GTA??? It's just a game some say. Well, it's all that stuff I wrote before that is why many people don't want kids playing a game like that. And it's probably why they don't like sex and nudity in games either. That and the whole no grandkids till you are not a kid yourself thing. I do think that it's a little overreacting about big breasted characters... but I understand why it's sensititve.
04/21/2006 (5:50 am)
@MarkI don't have any problems with sex or nudity at all. I am saying why there is a kneejerk reaction to sex and nudity in the USA and why it's not coming out of nowhere. I am very against oppression and exploitation. I certainly don't think a curvy game character is either.
Now... raping and beating women in GTA??? It's just a game some say. Well, it's all that stuff I wrote before that is why many people don't want kids playing a game like that. And it's probably why they don't like sex and nudity in games either. That and the whole no grandkids till you are not a kid yourself thing. I do think that it's a little overreacting about big breasted characters... but I understand why it's sensititve.
#45
You can beat men in GTA, too. And police, medics, men, african americans., etc. If you don't want your kids to see sex guns and violence in games, then simply don't show it to them.
People know plainly not to buy their 6 year old a Playboy magazine, but what about an "M" rated game?
I think GAMES are constantly being criticized and defamed more and more each day. Sometimes for good reasons, and sometimes for absolutely ridiculous reasons. Mainly ridiculous.
In all honesty women are not living in a warzone. I sit watching the show "Cops" where the guy beats up the lady. They cops ask "ma'am would you like us to take him to jail?"
THE STUPID ASS ALWAYS SAY "NO". What the CRAP!? And THEN she does'nt even leave the guy, she stays with him because she loves him. And surely it must be true love when he spanks you around like GG ragdoll animation pack.
Sure back in the day times were rough. Leaving your husband because he whoops your ass was unthinkable. But those times are gone now. If a woman in today's day is in ANY WAY being oppressed or exploited, she has complete freedom to fix the problem, but she never does.
04/21/2006 (6:57 am)
Don't worry I was'nt referring to you anton in specific, just people in general.You can beat men in GTA, too. And police, medics, men, african americans., etc. If you don't want your kids to see sex guns and violence in games, then simply don't show it to them.
People know plainly not to buy their 6 year old a Playboy magazine, but what about an "M" rated game?
I think GAMES are constantly being criticized and defamed more and more each day. Sometimes for good reasons, and sometimes for absolutely ridiculous reasons. Mainly ridiculous.
In all honesty women are not living in a warzone. I sit watching the show "Cops" where the guy beats up the lady. They cops ask "ma'am would you like us to take him to jail?"
THE STUPID ASS ALWAYS SAY "NO". What the CRAP!? And THEN she does'nt even leave the guy, she stays with him because she loves him. And surely it must be true love when he spanks you around like GG ragdoll animation pack.
Sure back in the day times were rough. Leaving your husband because he whoops your ass was unthinkable. But those times are gone now. If a woman in today's day is in ANY WAY being oppressed or exploited, she has complete freedom to fix the problem, but she never does.
#46
-- As far as I know, you can't actually rape anyone in GTA.
"...that is why many people don't want kids playing a game like that."
-- I get tired of the 'protect the children argument' The GTA games are not for children, never were for children, and are marked as such. "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Use of drugs." - these ESRB descriptions do not make me want to go out and buy this game for my children. I am an adult that plays games and I want content that is targeted at adults, otherwise I'd still be playing Mario.
One of my favorite series is the Postal games. This series is only for adults and they make no apologies about it. I like crude humor, out of proportion characters and non-PC. Games do not need to be edited for children when they are not meant for children.
05/10/2006 (5:05 pm)
"Now... raping and beating women in GTA??? It's just a game some say. "-- As far as I know, you can't actually rape anyone in GTA.
"...that is why many people don't want kids playing a game like that."
-- I get tired of the 'protect the children argument' The GTA games are not for children, never were for children, and are marked as such. "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, Use of drugs." - these ESRB descriptions do not make me want to go out and buy this game for my children. I am an adult that plays games and I want content that is targeted at adults, otherwise I'd still be playing Mario.
One of my favorite series is the Postal games. This series is only for adults and they make no apologies about it. I like crude humor, out of proportion characters and non-PC. Games do not need to be edited for children when they are not meant for children.
#47
It's not always about porn, sometimes it's about art.
*Contains Partial Nudity*
Screen Shot
*Contains Partial Nudity*
03/14/2007 (9:08 pm)
"And sometimes you just don't feel like wearing a shirt under the stylish bandoleer."It's not always about porn, sometimes it's about art.
*Contains Partial Nudity*
Screen Shot
*Contains Partial Nudity*
#48
03/24/2007 (8:06 am)
I think there should be much more adequately developed girls and women characters in games, i.e., those with cheerleader like bodies but I don't like it when girls/women are treated like sluts, sexual exploitation, stupid, lazy, etc.
#49
1. If america spent half the time actually raising and teaching there children moral ways as they did b*tching about and blaming the lack of it on video games and movies... there would be very little "immoral" things to b*tch about!
IMHO its very simple.. stop trying to find things to blame your lack of interest in raising your child on, and actually... start raising your child!
2. If I am not mistaken... this is the about the only country in the world... where the human body is considered an "evil" thing that must stay hidden! I just find it ironic that here in this "Advanced and moral" country the only true things that whatever god you may believe in supposedly gave each and every one of us... as well as any "physical" action that could display affection, attraction, and appreciation... are again considered to be bad and must be hidden.
America hides the human body which can be one of the most beautiful things you have ever seen... and yet they show every sort of hideous, "evil", depressing, demoralizing, and hurtful aspect of society that they can find on a daily basis and call it... "NEWS" Ha... we are so f*cked up!
(and i bet someone will blame even THAT on video games before its over! lol)
03/26/2007 (10:27 pm)
Just have 2 comments to sum up my view point on this topic / debate.1. If america spent half the time actually raising and teaching there children moral ways as they did b*tching about and blaming the lack of it on video games and movies... there would be very little "immoral" things to b*tch about!
IMHO its very simple.. stop trying to find things to blame your lack of interest in raising your child on, and actually... start raising your child!
2. If I am not mistaken... this is the about the only country in the world... where the human body is considered an "evil" thing that must stay hidden! I just find it ironic that here in this "Advanced and moral" country the only true things that whatever god you may believe in supposedly gave each and every one of us... as well as any "physical" action that could display affection, attraction, and appreciation... are again considered to be bad and must be hidden.
America hides the human body which can be one of the most beautiful things you have ever seen... and yet they show every sort of hideous, "evil", depressing, demoralizing, and hurtful aspect of society that they can find on a daily basis and call it... "NEWS" Ha... we are so f*cked up!
(and i bet someone will blame even THAT on video games before its over! lol)
#50
- Ronixus
03/26/2007 (10:50 pm)
Do any of y'all ever feel like a stud horse staring at a merry-go-round?- Ronixus
#51
04/02/2007 (2:42 pm)
...Geez. It's an indie game. Key words: Trial and error. That's what makes the indie game market awesome. People do different stuff. I'm not encouraging this sort of stuff, however... but just do what you want. If you think it'll hurt you or help you, whatever. Do your own thing.
#52
Wow. Not that I have a huge opinion about this entire thread, but what an incredible mis-statement:
1/3 of the world...
California Beach Volleyball
04/02/2007 (3:06 pm)
@TajWow. Not that I have a huge opinion about this entire thread, but what an incredible mis-statement:
Quote:If I am not mistaken... this is the about the only country in the world... where the human body is considered an "evil" thing that must stay hidden!
Quote:America hides the human body which can be one of the most beautiful things you have ever seen...
1/3 of the world...
California Beach Volleyball
#53
Anyway, this is my opinion on the matter. I'm assuming the team behind Ninjas vs Pirates is indie. That means they can make whatever they want without any meaningful flak from anyone. So they can basically have females with their titties (for lack of a better word...ok not really) hanging out all over the place and they have every legal right to do so. One of the biggest advantages to being an indie is the ability to do whatever you want.
I live in California and it's starting to get warm, there's nothing a game can show me about a female that I don't see every day just walking through a mall. It's crazy out here. let them make their game the way they want without trying to push moral and religious ethics on them. I say religious because all this "the naked body and sexuality is evil" stuff started from some god worshiping religion. Probably Christianity.
04/02/2007 (9:10 pm)
LOL Alan! That was good.Anyway, this is my opinion on the matter. I'm assuming the team behind Ninjas vs Pirates is indie. That means they can make whatever they want without any meaningful flak from anyone. So they can basically have females with their titties (for lack of a better word...ok not really) hanging out all over the place and they have every legal right to do so. One of the biggest advantages to being an indie is the ability to do whatever you want.
I live in California and it's starting to get warm, there's nothing a game can show me about a female that I don't see every day just walking through a mall. It's crazy out here. let them make their game the way they want without trying to push moral and religious ethics on them. I say religious because all this "the naked body and sexuality is evil" stuff started from some god worshiping religion. Probably Christianity.
#54
I guess I would have to correct my previous statement and say that I do have somewhat of an opinion on the whole subject, and it's primarily that moral ethos, values, respect for human life, modesty and sexual values are an inherent result of the nature of the character of a human being, and that nature flows from within.
I am of an old school of thought that has been lost in the contemporary attempts of "modern" religion movements. They have come to the mistaken conclusion that a person can be changed by some modification of society to be forced to conform from the outside.
Doesn't happen.
Actually probably to your chagrin I espouse some of the beliefs that you decry, it's just that I understand that the full nature of everything was originally good and can still be that way...i.e. the nature of the human form and human sexuality, relationships between individuals, the greater society, and the inherent value of human life. The fundamental difference is that I understand that I cannot bend anyone to my belief, nor would I want to, because they would not be changed, merely forced into submission until the opportunity to do something else presented itself.
Regarding game design work and morality. I have with my own children held that there are limits that I as a parent must impose for their care and upbringing until they have reached the point that they can emotionally, spiritually and ethically comprehend them. That is a responsible parents duty. Some things they are ready for before others, but if you know and love your children, then you know them like you know yourself and when that time is acceptable and right.
I understand where you are coming from, because I know too well of the damage by those who claim the name who have not ever got a handle on how to extend grace to others. It is indeed sad that a movement founded on the ultimate act of compassion and grace has had it's underlying foundations shattered through the reckless misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the nature of real change and spirituality.
It is devastating to me that it has been bent and broken by the very people who claim to serve it's call.
04/02/2007 (10:18 pm)
Hey Ajari how have you been?I guess I would have to correct my previous statement and say that I do have somewhat of an opinion on the whole subject, and it's primarily that moral ethos, values, respect for human life, modesty and sexual values are an inherent result of the nature of the character of a human being, and that nature flows from within.
I am of an old school of thought that has been lost in the contemporary attempts of "modern" religion movements. They have come to the mistaken conclusion that a person can be changed by some modification of society to be forced to conform from the outside.
Doesn't happen.
Actually probably to your chagrin I espouse some of the beliefs that you decry, it's just that I understand that the full nature of everything was originally good and can still be that way...i.e. the nature of the human form and human sexuality, relationships between individuals, the greater society, and the inherent value of human life. The fundamental difference is that I understand that I cannot bend anyone to my belief, nor would I want to, because they would not be changed, merely forced into submission until the opportunity to do something else presented itself.
Regarding game design work and morality. I have with my own children held that there are limits that I as a parent must impose for their care and upbringing until they have reached the point that they can emotionally, spiritually and ethically comprehend them. That is a responsible parents duty. Some things they are ready for before others, but if you know and love your children, then you know them like you know yourself and when that time is acceptable and right.
I understand where you are coming from, because I know too well of the damage by those who claim the name who have not ever got a handle on how to extend grace to others. It is indeed sad that a movement founded on the ultimate act of compassion and grace has had it's underlying foundations shattered through the reckless misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the nature of real change and spirituality.
It is devastating to me that it has been bent and broken by the very people who claim to serve it's call.
#55
I think Anton's comment about 'raping and beating a prostitute' in GTA illustrates my point perfectly, since A) you can't rape them, and B) you can beat anyone, but prostitutes are singled out for no other reason than to spark moral outrage. Furthermore, no-one points out that beating people in GTA (yes even prostitutes) *does* have negative repercussions, in that it will alert the police who will come and beat your ass! (although to be fair, the police are pussies and you can kick their ass just as easily) The 'moral' naysayers intentionally gloss over these facts (as well as the very clear ratings on the box) in order to push their own agenda. (The constant accustation of 'failings' of the rating system also piss me off because there's nothing wrong with them - why people reading them on movies but ignoring them on games for their kids is the ESRB's fault I'll never know.)
Would anyone even bat an eyelid if Tomb Raider featured a man instead? Of course not, but because the exact same game features a woman with large breasts it's immediately sexist - the fact that she is _incapable_ of performing any act that is even remotely sexual doesn't factor into it. Is being a strong willed, self-motivated, ass-kicking woman in complete control of her own life instantly negated by having large breasts?!? My wife is very well endowed - does that make her a sexual object? Am I a shallow, sexist pig for marrying her? Of course not.
People see what they want to see, and it's usually the most closed minded, still-living-in-the-dark-ages-and-desperately-trying-to-drag-the-rest-of-us-back-there, religious zealot that kicks up a fuss - everyone else sees it for what it really is and continues on with their lives.
In my not-so-humble opinion, it's the ones that scream 'exploitation!' that are shallow - they see an image of a busty woman and instantly assume that her bust represents her totality. That in some way she needs to be defended because she clearly can't do it for herself. That being sexually confident or agressive is somehow detrimental to the rest of your mental faculties. Furthermore, the implication that being physically attracted to someone (or indeed being physically attractive to others) is somehow 'wrong'.
On the flip-side though, I think Marketing people have a hell of a lot to answer for in this regard - even the new 'realistically proportioned' Lara Croft (it's "Lara" not "Laura") is still pictured on the box with her back arched as much as possible to make sure her tits stick right out. Remember the Everquest box/ads?
I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that's where most of the problem comes from - some mother walks into a games shop to be her child a GameBoy game, sees a huge poster of some woman with big tits and immediately assumes that is the core concept of the game. (And considering the poster does nothing to dissuade that idea, who can really blame her - aside from the fact that no-one should take anything at face value, and it's inevitably those that blame games for being shallow that are unable to see the complexity that actually exists therein)
It's also a serious problem in the retail world at large, so that should also be considered - look at the absurd (and often digtally altered) representations of women in other forms of advertising - ESPECIALLY for products aimed at women. (I'll leave it at that since it's a whole different topic, but please consider it when continuing the debate)
@Alan - [Your images make a good point (and yeah, much of the world has seriously fucked up issues against women) and America may well have beach volleyball, but can you seriously tell me that Taj doesn't have some very accurate and serious points too? The extremely vocal minority of 'moral' extremists are trying to enforce their ideals on everyone else, despite the fact that many of their arguments intentionally omit facts that put the subject in context.]
Taj is also right about the double standard for violence vs sex - sex is a natural and beautiful part of a healthy loving relationship, and violence is something that we never encounter in our lives, yet violence has been an acceptable and glorified part of mainstream entertainment for decades, yet sex is 'wrong'. Now I'm not saying that we should have sex on TV any time of day, but if sex was at least something that was openly shown as a loving act, rather than as a dirty, wrong, behind-closed-doors-and-for-god's-sake-don't-tell-anyone-about-it-you-filthy-whore act, maybe people wouldn't have such archaic attitudes and could really start to focus on the real problems in the world...
Look at rap culture for f*ck's sake - how many top 40 hits are about 'pimpin ho's and capping suckaz'?!? We have a whole generation of kids thinking that it's totally ok to sell women and kill anyone who looks at you funny!!! Games at least place violence in an non-real-world context, or have some attempt at a legitimate reason (eg: you have to shoot terrorists, which are made clear to be bad guys).
Gay marriage is another example of peoples' attitudes towards sex - people are hiding behind the bible, saying it says that marriage is between a man and a woman. Well guess what? I don't follow your religion, and I'm guessing a lot of gay men and women don't either, so who the hell are you to say what they *legally* can and can't do. (Nevermind that heterosexual marriage is hardly a bastion for successful relationships and moral fortitude these days anyway - rates of divorce, cheating, spousal abuse and 'fad' marriages have never been higher)
Another one that *really* gets me is the TV show 'Law & Order: Special Victims Unit' - this show is on at 8:30 and is exclusively about rape - often about children. HOW THE HELL IS THIS OK?!? Because it doesn't depict the actual rape itself, that's ok for a prime-time show? I'd like to think I'm pretty open minded and I won't decry anything unless I can justify my reasoning, but this one really gets me. (I actually really enjoy the Law & Order shows, but SVU even makes me a bit uncomfortable at times)
Sorry for going way off topic here, but I'm trying to provide some context to the subject at hand. If I can so easily point to far worse examples in other aspects of society and entertainment off the top of my head, just how apologetic do we, as game developers, have to be?
- Dan
04/05/2007 (12:21 am)
Unfortunately, I think the reality (where games are concerned) is that the outcry always comes from people who don't play games, and thus form opinions based on images alone - from there I think it's sadly a projection of their own world view, that a shapely women must automatically be being used as an object of sexual desire, irrespective of the role they play in the game, the actions they perform, the way they are dressed, and the way other characters react to them. I think Anton's comment about 'raping and beating a prostitute' in GTA illustrates my point perfectly, since A) you can't rape them, and B) you can beat anyone, but prostitutes are singled out for no other reason than to spark moral outrage. Furthermore, no-one points out that beating people in GTA (yes even prostitutes) *does* have negative repercussions, in that it will alert the police who will come and beat your ass! (although to be fair, the police are pussies and you can kick their ass just as easily) The 'moral' naysayers intentionally gloss over these facts (as well as the very clear ratings on the box) in order to push their own agenda. (The constant accustation of 'failings' of the rating system also piss me off because there's nothing wrong with them - why people reading them on movies but ignoring them on games for their kids is the ESRB's fault I'll never know.)
Would anyone even bat an eyelid if Tomb Raider featured a man instead? Of course not, but because the exact same game features a woman with large breasts it's immediately sexist - the fact that she is _incapable_ of performing any act that is even remotely sexual doesn't factor into it. Is being a strong willed, self-motivated, ass-kicking woman in complete control of her own life instantly negated by having large breasts?!? My wife is very well endowed - does that make her a sexual object? Am I a shallow, sexist pig for marrying her? Of course not.
People see what they want to see, and it's usually the most closed minded, still-living-in-the-dark-ages-and-desperately-trying-to-drag-the-rest-of-us-back-there, religious zealot that kicks up a fuss - everyone else sees it for what it really is and continues on with their lives.
In my not-so-humble opinion, it's the ones that scream 'exploitation!' that are shallow - they see an image of a busty woman and instantly assume that her bust represents her totality. That in some way she needs to be defended because she clearly can't do it for herself. That being sexually confident or agressive is somehow detrimental to the rest of your mental faculties. Furthermore, the implication that being physically attracted to someone (or indeed being physically attractive to others) is somehow 'wrong'.
On the flip-side though, I think Marketing people have a hell of a lot to answer for in this regard - even the new 'realistically proportioned' Lara Croft (it's "Lara" not "Laura") is still pictured on the box with her back arched as much as possible to make sure her tits stick right out. Remember the Everquest box/ads?
I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that's where most of the problem comes from - some mother walks into a games shop to be her child a GameBoy game, sees a huge poster of some woman with big tits and immediately assumes that is the core concept of the game. (And considering the poster does nothing to dissuade that idea, who can really blame her - aside from the fact that no-one should take anything at face value, and it's inevitably those that blame games for being shallow that are unable to see the complexity that actually exists therein)
It's also a serious problem in the retail world at large, so that should also be considered - look at the absurd (and often digtally altered) representations of women in other forms of advertising - ESPECIALLY for products aimed at women. (I'll leave it at that since it's a whole different topic, but please consider it when continuing the debate)
@Alan - [Your images make a good point (and yeah, much of the world has seriously fucked up issues against women) and America may well have beach volleyball, but can you seriously tell me that Taj doesn't have some very accurate and serious points too? The extremely vocal minority of 'moral' extremists are trying to enforce their ideals on everyone else, despite the fact that many of their arguments intentionally omit facts that put the subject in context.]
Taj is also right about the double standard for violence vs sex - sex is a natural and beautiful part of a healthy loving relationship, and violence is something that we never encounter in our lives, yet violence has been an acceptable and glorified part of mainstream entertainment for decades, yet sex is 'wrong'. Now I'm not saying that we should have sex on TV any time of day, but if sex was at least something that was openly shown as a loving act, rather than as a dirty, wrong, behind-closed-doors-and-for-god's-sake-don't-tell-anyone-about-it-you-filthy-whore act, maybe people wouldn't have such archaic attitudes and could really start to focus on the real problems in the world...
Look at rap culture for f*ck's sake - how many top 40 hits are about 'pimpin ho's and capping suckaz'?!? We have a whole generation of kids thinking that it's totally ok to sell women and kill anyone who looks at you funny!!! Games at least place violence in an non-real-world context, or have some attempt at a legitimate reason (eg: you have to shoot terrorists, which are made clear to be bad guys).
Gay marriage is another example of peoples' attitudes towards sex - people are hiding behind the bible, saying it says that marriage is between a man and a woman. Well guess what? I don't follow your religion, and I'm guessing a lot of gay men and women don't either, so who the hell are you to say what they *legally* can and can't do. (Nevermind that heterosexual marriage is hardly a bastion for successful relationships and moral fortitude these days anyway - rates of divorce, cheating, spousal abuse and 'fad' marriages have never been higher)
Another one that *really* gets me is the TV show 'Law & Order: Special Victims Unit' - this show is on at 8:30 and is exclusively about rape - often about children. HOW THE HELL IS THIS OK?!? Because it doesn't depict the actual rape itself, that's ok for a prime-time show? I'd like to think I'm pretty open minded and I won't decry anything unless I can justify my reasoning, but this one really gets me. (I actually really enjoy the Law & Order shows, but SVU even makes me a bit uncomfortable at times)
Sorry for going way off topic here, but I'm trying to provide some context to the subject at hand. If I can so easily point to far worse examples in other aspects of society and entertainment off the top of my head, just how apologetic do we, as game developers, have to be?
- Dan
#56
@Alan - I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that while I detest religion for many reasons, I have nothing but respect for your attitude and certainly don't want you to think that I am attacking you or your beliefs. Christ's messages of love and tolerance have long been buried by the beaurocratic power structure, and been twisted and exaggerated by right-wing nutters.
@Ajari - exactly - anyone who starts crying 'exploitation' at any game featuring women needs to be dragged down to a major mall and forced to actually look at people. Hell, even I get suprised by the number of young women with sexual slogans stretched acrss their chests.
@Anton - I think even your own ideas of women's opression in the porn industry are a little outdated (and I'm NOT saying that there is no opression or anything like that) - webcam culture alone proves there are plenty of women exposing themselves to the world completely for their own enjoyment and/or profit. Even in commercial porn there are numerous studio owners, directors, etc who are women. Look at Jenna Jameson - she has a veritable empire these days. The number of 'amateur' porn sites with women posting pictures of themselves for a fee (and even for free) are growing by the day. I even have a friend who was a prostitute of her own volition (in a brothel, mind you, not on the streets) and later left of her own accord - she made great money and wasn't forced into anything she wasn't willing to accept. These women are not all being exploited, and in fact could be argued that they are exploiting the men who pay outrageous sums of money for their services. Yes there are serious problems in all sexual industries, but they are not the entireity of those industries, nor are they always even the norm - just as in the game industry.
@All - sorry to hijack this great and highly intelligent thread with my massive rant and off-topic tangents, but I really think that it needs to be pointed out that it's not all the game developers' fault, nor entirely their responsibility.
04/05/2007 (12:22 am)
@Alan - I'd also like to take this opportunity to say that while I detest religion for many reasons, I have nothing but respect for your attitude and certainly don't want you to think that I am attacking you or your beliefs. Christ's messages of love and tolerance have long been buried by the beaurocratic power structure, and been twisted and exaggerated by right-wing nutters.
@Ajari - exactly - anyone who starts crying 'exploitation' at any game featuring women needs to be dragged down to a major mall and forced to actually look at people. Hell, even I get suprised by the number of young women with sexual slogans stretched acrss their chests.
@Anton - I think even your own ideas of women's opression in the porn industry are a little outdated (and I'm NOT saying that there is no opression or anything like that) - webcam culture alone proves there are plenty of women exposing themselves to the world completely for their own enjoyment and/or profit. Even in commercial porn there are numerous studio owners, directors, etc who are women. Look at Jenna Jameson - she has a veritable empire these days. The number of 'amateur' porn sites with women posting pictures of themselves for a fee (and even for free) are growing by the day. I even have a friend who was a prostitute of her own volition (in a brothel, mind you, not on the streets) and later left of her own accord - she made great money and wasn't forced into anything she wasn't willing to accept. These women are not all being exploited, and in fact could be argued that they are exploiting the men who pay outrageous sums of money for their services. Yes there are serious problems in all sexual industries, but they are not the entireity of those industries, nor are they always even the norm - just as in the game industry.
@All - sorry to hijack this great and highly intelligent thread with my massive rant and off-topic tangents, but I really think that it needs to be pointed out that it's not all the game developers' fault, nor entirely their responsibility.
#57
Though it really seems to me that most people aren't so insanely conservative. The ones who are, are far mor vocal. They are the ones who go and vote, who protest, etc.
Back to the main topic.... I don't think it is in any way wrong to have idealistic representations of people in general. It's all about what you want the whole style to be like, if you ask me. I mean, I just started working on my modeling skills again, and started to model a man. As I am going to be staring at the refference shots, and the model for hours on end, can you really blame me for choosing a well formed man as my refference, rather than someone who's face looks like it's been put through a meat-grinder?? Same with women, how is there anything wrong with having more pleasant representations??
Moving along with my point about it being a choice of style....
The look of a character has a big impact on how the veiwer will recieve it. EXAMPLE: Oddworld. Abe's kind of a dork, he's not huge, 'shapely' he has stitches in his mouth. It all adds to the feeling that he's not really anything special, just placed in special circumstances. Let's move on to.... Prince Of Persia. The Prince isn't really someone who you're supposed to pitty. He's an enigmatic hero. He is royalty, not some peasant who's been hunched over in a field, trudging through the mud, sowing seeds/reaping crops since he was 6 years old.
I think the only case where you could argue that a certain character's physical attributes are wrong would be if the personality and setting totally conflict with it's stature. Like having a peasant(again with the peasants....) who was beaten and flogged as a child, along with trudging through the mud, getting into vicous fights. Who has a pleasant face and looks like a greek statue.
04/08/2007 (11:04 pm)
Taj has a definite point in that, we can't really say america is the most open country. You WILL be arrested for standing at the bus station in your Birthday Suit. You wouldn't in any country I can think of in Europe. In my personal opinion though, it's nice that people aren't allowed to go around nude, as this would result in a LOT of bad images engrained into my memory(this has occured to me when i've been to Europe for the summer, visiting family).Though it really seems to me that most people aren't so insanely conservative. The ones who are, are far mor vocal. They are the ones who go and vote, who protest, etc.
Back to the main topic.... I don't think it is in any way wrong to have idealistic representations of people in general. It's all about what you want the whole style to be like, if you ask me. I mean, I just started working on my modeling skills again, and started to model a man. As I am going to be staring at the refference shots, and the model for hours on end, can you really blame me for choosing a well formed man as my refference, rather than someone who's face looks like it's been put through a meat-grinder?? Same with women, how is there anything wrong with having more pleasant representations??
Moving along with my point about it being a choice of style....
The look of a character has a big impact on how the veiwer will recieve it. EXAMPLE: Oddworld. Abe's kind of a dork, he's not huge, 'shapely' he has stitches in his mouth. It all adds to the feeling that he's not really anything special, just placed in special circumstances. Let's move on to.... Prince Of Persia. The Prince isn't really someone who you're supposed to pitty. He's an enigmatic hero. He is royalty, not some peasant who's been hunched over in a field, trudging through the mud, sowing seeds/reaping crops since he was 6 years old.
I think the only case where you could argue that a certain character's physical attributes are wrong would be if the personality and setting totally conflict with it's stature. Like having a peasant(again with the peasants....) who was beaten and flogged as a child, along with trudging through the mud, getting into vicous fights. Who has a pleasant face and looks like a greek statue.
Torque 3D Owner iHugMedia
Peppe'
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Yeah Pa?
Get mah' Gun
EDIT: Just so everyone knows, I don't have anything against anyone here, please don't hold issues like this between us :-)