Sex, Violence, and Representation in Games
by Alan H · in General Discussion · 04/20/2006 (9:21 am) · 57 replies
Hi everyone,
This thread is being started due to the turn of discussion on Jon's blog for Ninja's vs Pirates ( http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/56310/10299 ). To sum it up, I took offense, at the female model sketches and jumped on my high horse made remarks about it. Jon responded and said a couple things that did give me pause. Todd expanded the conversation and we suggested moving it here so Jon's blog could get back on track. I also apologized to Jon for how my remarks came across.
So, if I may take liberty to cut and paste unedited the 4 posts to kick off this thread:
I said:
"It's so nice that your not learning from the mistakes of the mainstream game community and continuing the over sexualizaiton of females so you can alienate potentially 50% of the possible player base (aka female gamers). The time for "Laura Croft" female characters is over. If you want to be taken seriously as a mature and in touch developer and not as a bunch of immature horny geek teenagers who can't find a girlfriendyou ought to tone down the female assets. But then I'm sure you'll just chalk this up as a "rant" and continue on even though you could make it a female friendly and still be "fun". As an indie we all ought to be making our games accessible to the as many potential players as possible.
I'd also suggest you read Gender Inclusive Game Design by Sheri Graner Ray if you have no idea where I'm coming from.
As a veteran gamer, husband, and father to a little girl I won't be buying this if that's how women will be represented. Sorry. I was really looking forward to buying this too."
N.R responded:
"Thanks for your opinion, Alan. I am a husband and the father of four boys... not an oversexed teenager. I acknowledge where you're coming from and maybe its a mistake to have large-breasted women in today's over-saturated market. But I don't think it is. And you're right, I do think your post is a rant.
On a personal note if you want sink deep in the political correctness of the female dominated value system that drives nearly every market know to man, go right ahead. But Jon laid out a number of features for NvP when I first signed on and sucking up to majority rule wasn't one of them. He wants to make a fun game that has a variety of characters that players can relate to and yes one of them is a beautiful, elegant woman... with large breasts.
Aside from my personal appreciation for the female form I guarantee Ninjs versus Pirates won't suffer from a lack of beta-testers or retail purchasers because one of its female characters has a little bounce in her stride."
I apologized - (the post ended up after Todd's)
Todd posted:
All kidding aside,
The question of the level of "sexuality" in any aspect of a games design is something that should be taken seriously and carefully considered.
However, it is probably a subject worthy of its own thread. In fact I think it would be a good and worth while discussion which is not explored often or seriously enough.
@ Alan, you seem to feel very strongly about it. But I would have to challenge you with the question that you seem to be far more concerned about the size of a characters breast, than the fact that the game is about running around and killing each other in all manner and fashion.
Clearly this game is not targeted at 10 year olds. The character don't do anything even remotely sexual in the game. Would you feel better if the same character were carrying 70 pound of fat? Or how about the heroin thin look of most models and starlets today?
I am not trying to take any shots here, just asking you to clarify you thoughts in case I misunderstand you, or explore them a little further.
(continued)
This thread is being started due to the turn of discussion on Jon's blog for Ninja's vs Pirates ( http://www.garagegames.com/blogs/56310/10299 ). To sum it up, I took offense, at the female model sketches and jumped on my high horse made remarks about it. Jon responded and said a couple things that did give me pause. Todd expanded the conversation and we suggested moving it here so Jon's blog could get back on track. I also apologized to Jon for how my remarks came across.
So, if I may take liberty to cut and paste unedited the 4 posts to kick off this thread:
I said:
"It's so nice that your not learning from the mistakes of the mainstream game community and continuing the over sexualizaiton of females so you can alienate potentially 50% of the possible player base (aka female gamers). The time for "Laura Croft" female characters is over. If you want to be taken seriously as a mature and in touch developer and not as a bunch of immature horny geek teenagers who can't find a girlfriendyou ought to tone down the female assets. But then I'm sure you'll just chalk this up as a "rant" and continue on even though you could make it a female friendly and still be "fun". As an indie we all ought to be making our games accessible to the as many potential players as possible.
I'd also suggest you read Gender Inclusive Game Design by Sheri Graner Ray if you have no idea where I'm coming from.
As a veteran gamer, husband, and father to a little girl I won't be buying this if that's how women will be represented. Sorry. I was really looking forward to buying this too."
N.R responded:
"Thanks for your opinion, Alan. I am a husband and the father of four boys... not an oversexed teenager. I acknowledge where you're coming from and maybe its a mistake to have large-breasted women in today's over-saturated market. But I don't think it is. And you're right, I do think your post is a rant.
On a personal note if you want sink deep in the political correctness of the female dominated value system that drives nearly every market know to man, go right ahead. But Jon laid out a number of features for NvP when I first signed on and sucking up to majority rule wasn't one of them. He wants to make a fun game that has a variety of characters that players can relate to and yes one of them is a beautiful, elegant woman... with large breasts.
Aside from my personal appreciation for the female form I guarantee Ninjs versus Pirates won't suffer from a lack of beta-testers or retail purchasers because one of its female characters has a little bounce in her stride."
I apologized - (the post ended up after Todd's)
Todd posted:
All kidding aside,
The question of the level of "sexuality" in any aspect of a games design is something that should be taken seriously and carefully considered.
However, it is probably a subject worthy of its own thread. In fact I think it would be a good and worth while discussion which is not explored often or seriously enough.
@ Alan, you seem to feel very strongly about it. But I would have to challenge you with the question that you seem to be far more concerned about the size of a characters breast, than the fact that the game is about running around and killing each other in all manner and fashion.
Clearly this game is not targeted at 10 year olds. The character don't do anything even remotely sexual in the game. Would you feel better if the same character were carrying 70 pound of fat? Or how about the heroin thin look of most models and starlets today?
I am not trying to take any shots here, just asking you to clarify you thoughts in case I misunderstand you, or explore them a little further.
(continued)
About the author
#2
I have a REALLY busy day, but I will keep an eye out for your response and the developing discussion.
04/20/2006 (9:32 am)
Thanks for starting the thread Alan,I have a REALLY busy day, but I will keep an eye out for your response and the developing discussion.
#3
Is it okay to have violence but not okay to "sexualize" the female form (or the male form for that matter)? Further than that, what is acceptable levels of each based on the target audience? Or does the target audience even matter since determined kids can get their hands on it anyways? Does it matter what the character what the character looks like as long as it doesn't "do" anything sexual? Is it any different than if the character was asthetically unpleasing (i.e. Fat) or unheathily skin and bones like the models of today?
I'd also ask: Do we, as game developers/creators have a responsiblity involving morality? What is morality anyway? Judeo-Christian principles? Islamic/Muslim? Buddist? Hindu? Humanism? Political Correctness? Can we hide behind Constitutional Admendments when running a commercial company? Is everything okay? Is nothing off limits? Is it okay as long as it meets the ESRB no matter how flawed that system may be? Does eye candy take the place of fun gameplay and compelling story? As indie's are we Han solo defying the Empire for a buck or Luke Skywalker hoping against odds to exact change? Or just Princess Leia there to kiss the hero, spread our legs and look pretty?
So this is where my thought process is right now. Still sorting it out for myself. Man Todd, you sure tossed me a hot potato!
04/20/2006 (10:30 am)
Okay Todd, I've had to do much soul searching so it has taken me awhile to form my thoughts, based on my convictions, to the questions youve posed.Is it okay to have violence but not okay to "sexualize" the female form (or the male form for that matter)? Further than that, what is acceptable levels of each based on the target audience? Or does the target audience even matter since determined kids can get their hands on it anyways? Does it matter what the character what the character looks like as long as it doesn't "do" anything sexual? Is it any different than if the character was asthetically unpleasing (i.e. Fat) or unheathily skin and bones like the models of today?
I'd also ask: Do we, as game developers/creators have a responsiblity involving morality? What is morality anyway? Judeo-Christian principles? Islamic/Muslim? Buddist? Hindu? Humanism? Political Correctness? Can we hide behind Constitutional Admendments when running a commercial company? Is everything okay? Is nothing off limits? Is it okay as long as it meets the ESRB no matter how flawed that system may be? Does eye candy take the place of fun gameplay and compelling story? As indie's are we Han solo defying the Empire for a buck or Luke Skywalker hoping against odds to exact change? Or just Princess Leia there to kiss the hero, spread our legs and look pretty?
So this is where my thought process is right now. Still sorting it out for myself. Man Todd, you sure tossed me a hot potato!
#4
04/20/2006 (10:43 am)
@Alan: Might want to edit that, it was N.R. (the artist) that made those comments and not Jon. 
#5
Does it really matter what size breasts a character sports?
Its just a character in a game!!!!
I've created about 937 versions of my male character each time Im like,
NO! Bigger arms, Bigger chest, make him look more powerful!!!!
What makes a woman character different from a male is her thinness breast
and but size. Other than that you just have a male.
LONG LIVE - Sex, Violence in Games
Im not one to get into anyones business.
BUT WHO CARES....ITS an INDIE GAME MAN!.
If I want to make mine with all nude women so be it. Its my purchase my time my effort.
Anyone here heard of Leisure Suit Larry
My Buddy and I at work here, have been following this Ninja Pirates Plan for sometime.
At first we where like...WTF ?!?
Then as it developed we saw dev shots and loved it.
Now my work buddy and I talk like we are pirates. All Day.
Every time a new dev shot comes we started yelling "Yarrrrrr!!!"
Long live Ninjas vs Pirates,
Long live large breasted Characters.(They have rights too you know)
And damn if Im not going to model the most sexiest gun weilding babe I can conjour!
YAR - Some Crafty wenches I be Modelling. Arr.
-Surge
04/20/2006 (10:44 am)
LOLDoes it really matter what size breasts a character sports?
Its just a character in a game!!!!
I've created about 937 versions of my male character each time Im like,
NO! Bigger arms, Bigger chest, make him look more powerful!!!!
What makes a woman character different from a male is her thinness breast
and but size. Other than that you just have a male.
LONG LIVE - Sex, Violence in Games
Im not one to get into anyones business.
BUT WHO CARES....ITS an INDIE GAME MAN!.
If I want to make mine with all nude women so be it. Its my purchase my time my effort.
Anyone here heard of Leisure Suit Larry
My Buddy and I at work here, have been following this Ninja Pirates Plan for sometime.
At first we where like...WTF ?!?
Then as it developed we saw dev shots and loved it.
Now my work buddy and I talk like we are pirates. All Day.
Every time a new dev shot comes we started yelling "Yarrrrrr!!!"
Long live Ninjas vs Pirates,
Long live large breasted Characters.(They have rights too you know)
And damn if Im not going to model the most sexiest gun weilding babe I can conjour!
YAR - Some Crafty wenches I be Modelling. Arr.
-Surge
#6
I played City of Heroes for a length of time and notice that women gamers would usually make very provocative female characters (COH has a very customizable character creation feature). I recently recall my girlfriend selecting the most exposed(sexy looking) female when choosing a character in Soul Calibur 2 (this was her first selection and that is why I took notice).
So, no, I disagree with anyone saying that a little over developed female form is going to kill your game sales. There will always be critics and there will always be things to critique. Just remember you can't please everyone.
For violence... i would say that the threshold is found mostly in the graphic detail... no one complained about street fighter as being too violent... but as soon as mortal combat started spraying blood everywhere and dismembering characters all hell broke loose (same style of game, similar combat and character interaction).
In media development its all about knowing your audience.
EDIT: spelling and...
The fact that this is an indie game... I would say... make it the way you dreamt it.
04/20/2006 (10:49 am)
I would have to say that the way women are displayed in video games is widely accepted by female gamers. For the same reason that girls play with barbie and women read fashion magazines and romance novels, I think that women are drawn to the over developed female qualities/form. I played City of Heroes for a length of time and notice that women gamers would usually make very provocative female characters (COH has a very customizable character creation feature). I recently recall my girlfriend selecting the most exposed(sexy looking) female when choosing a character in Soul Calibur 2 (this was her first selection and that is why I took notice).
So, no, I disagree with anyone saying that a little over developed female form is going to kill your game sales. There will always be critics and there will always be things to critique. Just remember you can't please everyone.
For violence... i would say that the threshold is found mostly in the graphic detail... no one complained about street fighter as being too violent... but as soon as mortal combat started spraying blood everywhere and dismembering characters all hell broke loose (same style of game, similar combat and character interaction).
In media development its all about knowing your audience.
EDIT: spelling and...
The fact that this is an indie game... I would say... make it the way you dreamt it.
#7
Glad to see you (or anyone) doing some deep thinking on the subject.
Not to get preachy, but I find that we now live in a society that has become obsessed with idea of what THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO DO, and rarely give thought to what they have a responsibility to do.
I would love to hear the thoughts of the ladies in the community on this subject? Particularly of any of them who may be mothers.
04/20/2006 (10:59 am)
Alan, Glad to see you (or anyone) doing some deep thinking on the subject.
Not to get preachy, but I find that we now live in a society that has become obsessed with idea of what THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO DO, and rarely give thought to what they have a responsibility to do.
I would love to hear the thoughts of the ladies in the community on this subject? Particularly of any of them who may be mothers.
#8
04/20/2006 (11:19 am)
What's the difference between muscular men and big-breasted women? Both are as exagurated.
#9
04/20/2006 (11:27 am)
I think the real issue here, is why Ninjas VS Pirates, while clearly being an excellent concept, is being made into such a horrible mockery of a game. Seriously, it's a crappy FPS Starter Kit mod. There's nothing ninja or piratey about it outside the player models.
#10
Fluffed up Characters are Alright to me.
Like Im going to play a game called "Average Joe's" with just regular looking characters no
breasts or muscles. Wheres the "Fantasy" in that?
-Surge
04/20/2006 (11:31 am)
Thats what Im saying. Pam Anderson or...Super Man. Same Difference!Fluffed up Characters are Alright to me.
Like Im going to play a game called "Average Joe's" with just regular looking characters no
breasts or muscles. Wheres the "Fantasy" in that?
-Surge
#11
Now that my credentials have been lauded, let me begin with this:
I long held that the over developed female form in games was rediculous, despite my Id getting a kick out of it. When I started my first company I made it a point to insure that the art represented women in a more realistic fashion. I then realized that in an MMO environment it was near impossible telling a male from a female avatar without them wearing gender specific clothing when at a distance.
The artist on my team at the time just smiled at me and stated that he was wondering when I was going to come to that conclusion and proceeded to exaggerate the models (male and female alike) a bit more.
I find it a bit odd that in America, it is ok to go around killing people on TV/News/Games/Movies but beware the showing of affection in the form of sex or, heaven forbid, the dreaded breast.
04/20/2006 (11:35 am)
Among my mom's "bra burning feminist friends" I was considered an "enlightened male". I was raised with five sisters. I full on believe in ERA. My wife makes twice as much money as I do. I am the cook in the house.Now that my credentials have been lauded, let me begin with this:
I long held that the over developed female form in games was rediculous, despite my Id getting a kick out of it. When I started my first company I made it a point to insure that the art represented women in a more realistic fashion. I then realized that in an MMO environment it was near impossible telling a male from a female avatar without them wearing gender specific clothing when at a distance.
The artist on my team at the time just smiled at me and stated that he was wondering when I was going to come to that conclusion and proceeded to exaggerate the models (male and female alike) a bit more.
I find it a bit odd that in America, it is ok to go around killing people on TV/News/Games/Movies but beware the showing of affection in the form of sex or, heaven forbid, the dreaded breast.
#12
Thats a good question. The two examples you give represent icons of masculinity and femininity (which is probably a discussion allow on its own).
There is definitely a double standard in society. In a nut shell, the male body does not have the same history of objectification as the female form.
04/20/2006 (11:40 am)
Stefan,Thats a good question. The two examples you give represent icons of masculinity and femininity (which is probably a discussion allow on its own).
There is definitely a double standard in society. In a nut shell, the male body does not have the same history of objectification as the female form.
#14
I'm Terry Johnson, Jon's partner with DarkCombat and Ninjas vs Pirates. I'm a 35 yr old married father of 2 ( 14 yr old daughter and a 7 yr old son ). I stand behind N R's art and concept of the ninja model 100%. On a personal note I find the concept in very good taste without stepping over an lines. Others games have far and I do mean far more racier characters. I've been a gamer since I was 10 with my atari 2600 and Vic20. My most resent game was StarWars Galaxies, which has by far sexier characters (dancers in fleshwraps). I think if your gonna comment on a characters appearance in a computer game being sexist in relation to female characters wouldn't the same apply to the men characters all being muscle bound beefcakes that look like they can left trunks. The fact of the matter is we are developing games, a fantasy world where people come to play and do things they only could have dreamed of in their mind or on the silver screen. The difference is gaming has one up on movies because they let you be the hero. I know I don't speak for everyone but how may people dream of a 350 lb guy with a steak knife thats gonna save the world ,right after he catches his breathe, Not many I'm guessing. Now I know alot of gamers and when I saw your post on Jon's blog I thought I would get the opinion of real women and female gamers about the concept image. This is what I've heard far....
My wife (very easy going person)
What do you thing of this image? wife:"She's hot"
Does it offend you as a women? wife:(laughing) "no"
My daughter (14 yr old wanna be princess)
What do you think of this picture? daughter:"she's really pretty"
Does it upset you at all? daughter:"no, i wanna look like that" (which led into a discussion about being OK no matter how you look) (as a side note my daughter is a very pretty girl but thats another topic)
Clare (Xosa) Hallock (World of Warcraft junkie former SWG junkie) current web designer for NvP
What do you think of the ninja female concept art? Xosa:"She's so hot"
Does it offend you in any way? Xosa:"hell no, I'd hit it"
Dawi (female gamer in SWG bria server -GRD guild)
What do you think of the ninja female concept art? Dawi:"I think it's fine"
Does it offend you in any way? Dawi:"no, i think it's fine,who wants to play a short fat girl"
BG (female gamer in WoW ATO guild)
What do you think of the ninja female image? BG:" I'll email you my opinion"
I'll post her response when i get it
While I understand these women don't speak for all women. I do think it supports my standing on the topic.
04/20/2006 (12:17 pm)
@ Alan I'd like to start by pointing out, Thats not Jon your responding to it's N R ,he's the artist.I'm Terry Johnson, Jon's partner with DarkCombat and Ninjas vs Pirates. I'm a 35 yr old married father of 2 ( 14 yr old daughter and a 7 yr old son ). I stand behind N R's art and concept of the ninja model 100%. On a personal note I find the concept in very good taste without stepping over an lines. Others games have far and I do mean far more racier characters. I've been a gamer since I was 10 with my atari 2600 and Vic20. My most resent game was StarWars Galaxies, which has by far sexier characters (dancers in fleshwraps). I think if your gonna comment on a characters appearance in a computer game being sexist in relation to female characters wouldn't the same apply to the men characters all being muscle bound beefcakes that look like they can left trunks. The fact of the matter is we are developing games, a fantasy world where people come to play and do things they only could have dreamed of in their mind or on the silver screen. The difference is gaming has one up on movies because they let you be the hero. I know I don't speak for everyone but how may people dream of a 350 lb guy with a steak knife thats gonna save the world ,right after he catches his breathe, Not many I'm guessing. Now I know alot of gamers and when I saw your post on Jon's blog I thought I would get the opinion of real women and female gamers about the concept image. This is what I've heard far....
My wife (very easy going person)
What do you thing of this image? wife:"She's hot"
Does it offend you as a women? wife:(laughing) "no"
My daughter (14 yr old wanna be princess)
What do you think of this picture? daughter:"she's really pretty"
Does it upset you at all? daughter:"no, i wanna look like that" (which led into a discussion about being OK no matter how you look) (as a side note my daughter is a very pretty girl but thats another topic)
Clare (Xosa) Hallock (World of Warcraft junkie former SWG junkie) current web designer for NvP
What do you think of the ninja female concept art? Xosa:"She's so hot"
Does it offend you in any way? Xosa:"hell no, I'd hit it"
Dawi (female gamer in SWG bria server -GRD guild)
What do you think of the ninja female concept art? Dawi:"I think it's fine"
Does it offend you in any way? Dawi:"no, i think it's fine,who wants to play a short fat girl"
BG (female gamer in WoW ATO guild)
What do you think of the ninja female image? BG:" I'll email you my opinion"
I'll post her response when i get it
While I understand these women don't speak for all women. I do think it supports my standing on the topic.
#15
Actually this is the first time I am resonding to this issue...
First off I am putting this controversy to rest. We are NOT following suit with main stream, nor are we using sex or sexual explicit material to make/market this game. This is just that, a game. This game is meant to be entertaining, fun, and comical. We want people to enjoy this game and play it, not think about the social issues that people face today. If I personally wanted to tackle social issues, I would return to my previous career.
The characters in the game have their own strengths and weaknesses. The mesh model has nothing to do with game play. However there are specific reasons as to why and how this model was developed in relationship to the Ninja team. Unless you are a dev on this project, the specifics have not been released. In fact regarding this model specifically every woman who has seen the concept art, whether or not they are gamers, think it is really good and are not offended by it.
This game was originally developed as a downtime game for players of MMOs, it just so happens that it has gotten much bigger than the intended audience. Also we decided on this game as a realistic starting point along a development road towards an MMO. If you think about MMO culture, you will understand what this model represents...the obligatory "shim." For those of you who do not know this term, it is a male player who plays a female character.
DarkCombat Entertainment, and myself personally, stand by N.R.'s work and beliefs with regards to this and any model from the game. We are no exploiting women. With the exception of the development team, nobody will see the finished female models until release. Please understand this game was intended for a specific audience, it has just grown. This game has no material in it that would give the game an MA rating. The entire development team is comprised of adults, and it is DarkCombat Entertainment's view that it is the responsibility of the parent to decide if this game is appropriate for their child.
We are different from main stream in several ways. Hell we were even told not to do this game because if it fails, we will be the company known as the ones who messed up Ninjas vs. Pirates. This is probably one of several reasons this game has not been made. In addition, we have game play features that are very different from a standard FPS. We will not put out cookie cutter games that have a "proven" success rate. Lastly, we will not cater to the vocal minority like a lot of companies do. If people are offended by certain aspect of the game, we understand if you do not want to purchase it. We hope to put out a product that one day you will find suitable for you and your family. We can appreciate both our customers and non-customers, but we are not Walmart and we will not compromise on the artistic direction/vision of our games.
04/20/2006 (12:18 pm)
This is what I posted on the blog and is specific to our game:Actually this is the first time I am resonding to this issue...
First off I am putting this controversy to rest. We are NOT following suit with main stream, nor are we using sex or sexual explicit material to make/market this game. This is just that, a game. This game is meant to be entertaining, fun, and comical. We want people to enjoy this game and play it, not think about the social issues that people face today. If I personally wanted to tackle social issues, I would return to my previous career.
The characters in the game have their own strengths and weaknesses. The mesh model has nothing to do with game play. However there are specific reasons as to why and how this model was developed in relationship to the Ninja team. Unless you are a dev on this project, the specifics have not been released. In fact regarding this model specifically every woman who has seen the concept art, whether or not they are gamers, think it is really good and are not offended by it.
This game was originally developed as a downtime game for players of MMOs, it just so happens that it has gotten much bigger than the intended audience. Also we decided on this game as a realistic starting point along a development road towards an MMO. If you think about MMO culture, you will understand what this model represents...the obligatory "shim." For those of you who do not know this term, it is a male player who plays a female character.
DarkCombat Entertainment, and myself personally, stand by N.R.'s work and beliefs with regards to this and any model from the game. We are no exploiting women. With the exception of the development team, nobody will see the finished female models until release. Please understand this game was intended for a specific audience, it has just grown. This game has no material in it that would give the game an MA rating. The entire development team is comprised of adults, and it is DarkCombat Entertainment's view that it is the responsibility of the parent to decide if this game is appropriate for their child.
We are different from main stream in several ways. Hell we were even told not to do this game because if it fails, we will be the company known as the ones who messed up Ninjas vs. Pirates. This is probably one of several reasons this game has not been made. In addition, we have game play features that are very different from a standard FPS. We will not put out cookie cutter games that have a "proven" success rate. Lastly, we will not cater to the vocal minority like a lot of companies do. If people are offended by certain aspect of the game, we understand if you do not want to purchase it. We hope to put out a product that one day you will find suitable for you and your family. We can appreciate both our customers and non-customers, but we are not Walmart and we will not compromise on the artistic direction/vision of our games.
#16
04/20/2006 (12:36 pm)
**Removed by Jon Jorajuria** Have more imortant things to concentrate on.
#17
I would have to venture to guess that if this stayed the same course and female characters (no matter the build; tall, skinny, short, etc) were merely side stories as opposed to playable characters; that this would be much more offensive than the model of a female game character.
In my personal opinion, N.R. has done nothing but amazing things for the models and I stand by him 100%.
04/20/2006 (12:36 pm)
I have plently of female friends who enjoyed playing around in Tomb Raider and not once did I hear any complaints about how it made them feel inferior or how the character build was offensive. They enjoyed the fact that a female was a main character (in this case THE main character) in a video game. In days of yore (always wanted to use that word) most women in early games with the exception of Samus, who everyone originally would have thought was a man, were being saved by male characters.I would have to venture to guess that if this stayed the same course and female characters (no matter the build; tall, skinny, short, etc) were merely side stories as opposed to playable characters; that this would be much more offensive than the model of a female game character.
In my personal opinion, N.R. has done nothing but amazing things for the models and I stand by him 100%.
#18
Jon, Terry, & entire NvP team - I will publicly say I should have worded my post differently. I am sorry and really do apologize. I did not mean to offend. I sure should not have been so critical and should have definetly hled onto my post and re-read it later. You have my respect as you are making your game a reality. Just give the word and I'll delete this whole thread and my comments posted in Jon's blog (if it will let me). Though at this point it may be best to leave them. I feel way bad how far south this whole thing went.
@Terry - those answers are enlightening. Maybe it's just the women surrounding me that get all uptight. I'm not kidding when I say I hear all the time about female representation in games as being over the top. Maybe I should just block them out.
@Paul - you shouldn't have gone there man.
04/20/2006 (12:58 pm)
Okay, I'd like to say that this thread was not meant as a NvP bash. Just a discussion of sex, violence, and games.Jon, Terry, & entire NvP team - I will publicly say I should have worded my post differently. I am sorry and really do apologize. I did not mean to offend. I sure should not have been so critical and should have definetly hled onto my post and re-read it later. You have my respect as you are making your game a reality. Just give the word and I'll delete this whole thread and my comments posted in Jon's blog (if it will let me). Though at this point it may be best to leave them. I feel way bad how far south this whole thing went.
@Terry - those answers are enlightening. Maybe it's just the women surrounding me that get all uptight. I'm not kidding when I say I hear all the time about female representation in games as being over the top. Maybe I should just block them out.
@Paul - you shouldn't have gone there man.
#19
I do agree the entertainment industry needs to be more responsible with the material they produce. As a society we really need to take personal responsibility for what we expose our children to. In my past profession, as well as when I was in the music industry, there were too many people more concerned about blaming others. The reality is if parents take responsibility for what they expose their children to and edcuate them on their decisions, they instill values for future generations.
I see both sides of the coin in this debate. If both sides took responsibility for their actions or lack of actions, we would have a value system the flurishes. Unfortunately, I see the opposite happening.
04/20/2006 (1:13 pm)
@ Alan-I didn't take it as a bash and I respect your opinion. It's real easy to look at things at the surface level, I do the same thing too many times, and I am in no way upset with you. I wanted to clarify the approach we were taking with the game/company. We may have come out in force, but it really just a testiment as to how tight this development team is.I do agree the entertainment industry needs to be more responsible with the material they produce. As a society we really need to take personal responsibility for what we expose our children to. In my past profession, as well as when I was in the music industry, there were too many people more concerned about blaming others. The reality is if parents take responsibility for what they expose their children to and edcuate them on their decisions, they instill values for future generations.
I see both sides of the coin in this debate. If both sides took responsibility for their actions or lack of actions, we would have a value system the flurishes. Unfortunately, I see the opposite happening.
#20
I really do hope you get it worked out, because NvP is of course, the coolest thing ever. But seeing something so crippled and broken, with no apparent direction towards anything that makes me think of ninjas or pirates, was really crushing.
04/20/2006 (1:20 pm)
I'm not the one who released a pre-alpha status product calling it a "beta". Beta is a labelling for a product in near completion state, so I think I'm wholly justified in panning something released under it. Honestly if I had the time I would join the team, I planned out the code for a sweet ninja kawarimi move when I was driving today. As is though, I'm busy enough with my project and helping teach classes.I really do hope you get it worked out, because NvP is of course, the coolest thing ever. But seeing something so crippled and broken, with no apparent direction towards anything that makes me think of ninjas or pirates, was really crushing.
Torque Owner Alan H
I apologize for coming across so harsh Jon. I didn't mean for that to be accusatory. I shoulda re-read that before posting it and toned it down.
You do make a good point about the "political correctness of the female dominated value system that drives nearly every market know[n] to man". I for one don't like the PC environment. I do feel games, in general, do suffer from bad representation of females. We don't see huge groins on men - LOL! I usually don't hip-shoot so bad. I guess part of it's the fallout from the whole GTA debacle and constantly having to defend my hobby in the bible belt infested with "do-gooders". I shouldn't have passed judgement on the fly.
Your right, there are large "breasted" women in the world as well as ones that arn't. I guess it was the comment about the female pirate that got me goin. I'm married to a women with very, very large endowments and am sensitive to her problems with men oggling her and objectifying her. She's actually considered reduction surgery she gets so tired of it. My daughter will probably have the same problem due to genetics.
N.R then expounded his position:
"Apology accepted, Alan.
To clariy my position I'm not attempting to denigrate women. As an artist I dig the female form and enjoy depicting it in the same manner as the ancient Greeks did. If you look at the figure drawing I hope what you see is the graceful way she carries herself. The elegance of her style and self-confidence. If you see anything else you're simply missing the point."
So, I am still considering Todd's post and my reply. I will say sex & violence are big issues I've been sweating over in my own game design.
Please share your thoughts. This IS NOT started to criticise Ninja vs Pirates but to start a discussion about game design and content involving sex, & violence and what is or isn't appropriate.