Torque vs 3D Game Studio
by Shane "Criimson" Barnett · in General Discussion · 03/15/2002 (10:45 pm) · 11 replies
Hello everyone =)
The clock is ticking....in a few days I will have to make the decision as to which engine I will have to pick. The thing that is confusing me is that I have tried the demo for 3D Games Studio...I know that I can create with it. I made a litlle demo for myself and feel comfortable with the interface. Can anyone post screenshots of the Torque interface (the terrain editor and such; each seperate part would be nice) in resolutions higher than the ones the have under features. I run at 1158 and their screenshots are so small I can't make out any detail.
From all that I've read I like the Torque engine better (especially the skies), but familiarity is such a strong thing.
Thank you all in advance
Shane Barnett
The clock is ticking....in a few days I will have to make the decision as to which engine I will have to pick. The thing that is confusing me is that I have tried the demo for 3D Games Studio...I know that I can create with it. I made a litlle demo for myself and feel comfortable with the interface. Can anyone post screenshots of the Torque interface (the terrain editor and such; each seperate part would be nice) in resolutions higher than the ones the have under features. I run at 1158 and their screenshots are so small I can't make out any detail.
From all that I've read I like the Torque engine better (especially the skies), but familiarity is such a strong thing.
Thank you all in advance
Shane Barnett
#2
I believe it is... and trust me. It's like getting 4 duplo blocks for your 8th birthday instead of a normal lego set with 1000+ pieces. You'll be able to make a game in no time, but the engine is slow, incredibly limited and lacking multiplayer and any real place to go for coding.
Of course... I have to ask you this.
If you're having trouble deciding between the two I have to wonder your programming experience. If you have none, you can't use Torque. If you're an artist, you don't need to buy it (just have to have a team member who does and can compile it for you)
Basically, 3d Game Studio is a crummy game in a box while Torque is a tried and true game engine capable of producing professional quality titles.
For the money, it's not even a contest. Torque has multiplayer, much better graphics, better model format (I believe 3dGS only supports direct x rotation-based animated models... ugh! If you didn't understand that, lemme tell you... it uses 4+ year old model tech) and well... name something and torque will do it better. I guarantee :P
If you can't program and want to make something on your own... Torque won't be good for you. You can script, but even that takes some programming knowledge. It's very simple compared to c++, but you won't really be able to make much of a game from script alone.
Although... a bit of creative scripting could make a fairly fun game based on the code of the initial demo (assuming you can do some scripting)
So to answer your question. Torque. Torque all the way. 3d Game Creator can't make good games, Torque can... but it will take a considerable amount of effort if you don't know how to program and don't want to be a part of a team.
03/15/2002 (11:22 pm)
Isn't 3d Game Studio made by the people who make Dark Basic?I believe it is... and trust me. It's like getting 4 duplo blocks for your 8th birthday instead of a normal lego set with 1000+ pieces. You'll be able to make a game in no time, but the engine is slow, incredibly limited and lacking multiplayer and any real place to go for coding.
Of course... I have to ask you this.
If you're having trouble deciding between the two I have to wonder your programming experience. If you have none, you can't use Torque. If you're an artist, you don't need to buy it (just have to have a team member who does and can compile it for you)
Basically, 3d Game Studio is a crummy game in a box while Torque is a tried and true game engine capable of producing professional quality titles.
For the money, it's not even a contest. Torque has multiplayer, much better graphics, better model format (I believe 3dGS only supports direct x rotation-based animated models... ugh! If you didn't understand that, lemme tell you... it uses 4+ year old model tech) and well... name something and torque will do it better. I guarantee :P
If you can't program and want to make something on your own... Torque won't be good for you. You can script, but even that takes some programming knowledge. It's very simple compared to c++, but you won't really be able to make much of a game from script alone.
Although... a bit of creative scripting could make a fairly fun game based on the code of the initial demo (assuming you can do some scripting)
So to answer your question. Torque. Torque all the way. 3d Game Creator can't make good games, Torque can... but it will take a considerable amount of effort if you don't know how to program and don't want to be a part of a team.
#3
I am currently a student studying software development/computer science. I have a small amount of programming knowledge, but find I am better at hands on learning. With C++ I am having a hard time with the transition from text based usage of C++ (as I am still at the early stages). I was thinking that along the way taking my courses I could get a grasp on the terrain engine and practice more map/building development and learn the proccess of scripting/coding through trial and error and studying what others have put in the resources and forums.
I know that I won't be making the next MMoRPG, but that wasn't my plan to begin anyway. I have a layout for a game in mind, but it doesn't use any kind of fancy physics model or have any characters in at all. It's more of a move the person around and look at things kind of demo to learn the proccess of development.
I am leaning more to Torque because of the long run abilities that I believe I would gain from learning with such a tool. Kind of like people who learn to edit photos with Photoshop or to model with 3D Studion Max. Both are way above their abilities and yet learning on such a tool will help them in the long run.
I plan on spending about 30+ hours a week on learning the ins and outs of the engine and C++, so I figure in the next two years of classes and such I will have a good foundation for future development.
Am I wrong?
Shane Barnett
03/16/2002 (9:04 am)
Ok let me explain my situation...I am currently a student studying software development/computer science. I have a small amount of programming knowledge, but find I am better at hands on learning. With C++ I am having a hard time with the transition from text based usage of C++ (as I am still at the early stages). I was thinking that along the way taking my courses I could get a grasp on the terrain engine and practice more map/building development and learn the proccess of scripting/coding through trial and error and studying what others have put in the resources and forums.
I know that I won't be making the next MMoRPG, but that wasn't my plan to begin anyway. I have a layout for a game in mind, but it doesn't use any kind of fancy physics model or have any characters in at all. It's more of a move the person around and look at things kind of demo to learn the proccess of development.
I am leaning more to Torque because of the long run abilities that I believe I would gain from learning with such a tool. Kind of like people who learn to edit photos with Photoshop or to model with 3D Studion Max. Both are way above their abilities and yet learning on such a tool will help them in the long run.
I plan on spending about 30+ hours a week on learning the ins and outs of the engine and C++, so I figure in the next two years of classes and such I will have a good foundation for future development.
Am I wrong?
Shane Barnett
#4
Most people think that GameStudio is only a click and play game engine. It is, but only in the sense that it comes with a world editor that allows you to assign some predefined code to models to make them do various things. If you stick to it's click and play system, your games will be only slightly better than if you loaded up Torque and dropped a few items on the ground to pick up and shoot with.
GameStudio actually comes with an *extensive* scripting library (C-Script) which far excedes Torques Script Library. You can also purchase an SDK which allows you to create plug-ins via C++. 3D GameStudio is incredibly powerful, and although it does have some engine specific limitations (as all engines do), you are really limited by your imagination.
I should also point out that I own Torque, and I am quite happy with it. However due to engine limitations I must use both engines for 2 different games I am working on.
Torque handles online games *much* better than 3DGS, and 3DGS handles dynamically loaded entities *much* better than Torque. They both have great lighting and graphics. They are both great buys for the buck.
I would buy the engine that best suits your game.
One great thing about 3DGS is, it's license restrictions are narrowed down to you having to display their logo for 1 second. Thats all! :)
The best thing about Torque though, is that it's C++ library is open and you aren't limited in anyway shape or form if you know C++.
Also I have to say that you really should go to the GameStudio forums and ask them about the engines limitations. And no offense to the above poster as he was trying to help, but he knows nothing about GameStudio. In reality, it screams in speed if you code and model efficiently.
03/16/2002 (10:40 am)
Actually I have 3D GameStudio Pro. And it isn't made by the DarkBasic people. It was created by JCL of Conitec.Most people think that GameStudio is only a click and play game engine. It is, but only in the sense that it comes with a world editor that allows you to assign some predefined code to models to make them do various things. If you stick to it's click and play system, your games will be only slightly better than if you loaded up Torque and dropped a few items on the ground to pick up and shoot with.
GameStudio actually comes with an *extensive* scripting library (C-Script) which far excedes Torques Script Library. You can also purchase an SDK which allows you to create plug-ins via C++. 3D GameStudio is incredibly powerful, and although it does have some engine specific limitations (as all engines do), you are really limited by your imagination.
I should also point out that I own Torque, and I am quite happy with it. However due to engine limitations I must use both engines for 2 different games I am working on.
Torque handles online games *much* better than 3DGS, and 3DGS handles dynamically loaded entities *much* better than Torque. They both have great lighting and graphics. They are both great buys for the buck.
I would buy the engine that best suits your game.
One great thing about 3DGS is, it's license restrictions are narrowed down to you having to display their logo for 1 second. Thats all! :)
The best thing about Torque though, is that it's C++ library is open and you aren't limited in anyway shape or form if you know C++.
Also I have to say that you really should go to the GameStudio forums and ask them about the engines limitations. And no offense to the above poster as he was trying to help, but he knows nothing about GameStudio. In reality, it screams in speed if you code and model efficiently.
#5
It doesn't have support... and it's community is only semi-active. No where near the activity and support of the GarageGames community by it's customers and employees.
It doesn't have multiplayer (well, 2 player split screen! Lol)
Of course, it was designed for the "non-programmer" (the site uses that as it's tag line) but whenever you make something where code isn't really required you're going to sacrifice a ton of freedom.
For $100 nothing is going to touch Torque if you're interested in making a retail game, or know some coding. If you "just want to make a game" Torque is a bit much to dive into if you don't know C++.
If you're looking for a quick and fairly simple system just to learn how to create games (as opposed to programming them) you should join a team that has Torque and work with them, or try Dark Basic Pro (will be out soon, very simple programming and decent improvements over the original Dark Basic) or maybe even this 3d games studio thing.
If you are even remotely serious on creating a good-looking game that has multiplayer and an engine that has been proven in retail games and has a solid community then Torque can't be touched for the price.
03/16/2002 (11:38 am)
Ah okay, I mixed it up with 3d Game Creator. Even still, the $99 version of 3D GameStudio is very limited.It doesn't have support... and it's community is only semi-active. No where near the activity and support of the GarageGames community by it's customers and employees.
It doesn't have multiplayer (well, 2 player split screen! Lol)
Of course, it was designed for the "non-programmer" (the site uses that as it's tag line) but whenever you make something where code isn't really required you're going to sacrifice a ton of freedom.
For $100 nothing is going to touch Torque if you're interested in making a retail game, or know some coding. If you "just want to make a game" Torque is a bit much to dive into if you don't know C++.
If you're looking for a quick and fairly simple system just to learn how to create games (as opposed to programming them) you should join a team that has Torque and work with them, or try Dark Basic Pro (will be out soon, very simple programming and decent improvements over the original Dark Basic) or maybe even this 3d games studio thing.
If you are even remotely serious on creating a good-looking game that has multiplayer and an engine that has been proven in retail games and has a solid community then Torque can't be touched for the price.
#6
I suggest that you take a look at this for it's capabilities:
http://conitec.net/a4faq.htm
Quite honestly (and objectively), it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to learn C++ (or already know it), or want to make a multiplayer game by all means, Torque is definately the engine to buy.
If you want to make decent games with an extensive working script language (and it isn't multiplayer, which A5 *can* do, but not as well as Torque), get 3DGS. 3DGS is also better ber single player games if you don't know C++.
03/16/2002 (11:49 am)
I have to say that 3DGS's community is it's greatest asset (not trying to start a war here. hehe). They are extremely active and you get resposes to most of your questions in less than a day (most of the time within the hour).I suggest that you take a look at this for it's capabilities:
http://conitec.net/a4faq.htm
Quite honestly (and objectively), it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to learn C++ (or already know it), or want to make a multiplayer game by all means, Torque is definately the engine to buy.
If you want to make decent games with an extensive working script language (and it isn't multiplayer, which A5 *can* do, but not as well as Torque), get 3DGS. 3DGS is also better ber single player games if you don't know C++.
#7
This is the second time I have had to look into the A5 engine, so I went to their site today and really checked things out. Here is my opinion in an unbiased a manner as possible.
I think the A5 engine looks pretty good. In fact, I would say it is the biggest competition to the Torque on the market. If I were a student looking into game engines, and the Torque was not on the market, I would probably purchase the A5. However, the Torque is on the market, and it is a better engine at a better price.
To be honest, I think you will be a better looking game in a shorter time period with the A5 since they have concentrated more on ease of use then we have, but in the long haul, the Torque will allow to make a "shippable" game. However, we are working on our ease of use, and there is simply no comparison between the GG and A5 communities. Our community is much more active, much more accessible (their website is a mess), and more knowledgeable. At the GG site, you get industry veterans cruising the boards every day.
Here are some other differences:
Torque gives you the SOURCE code to the engine. The A5 gives you an API that is more and more crippled depending upon the version you purchase. You have to go all the way to the Professional version at $1,250 to even begin to get the features available in the Torque.
Torque provides you with a vastly superior terrain engine.
Torque provides you with the best networking in the business, even better than Unreal, Quake, or HL.
A5 does not help you get your game published. GG provides a marketplace for your game (coming May, 2002). A5 does not charge royalties, but you can get Torque royalties down to a very low level by contributing code back to the community.
A5 has an in-engine editor that appears to be similar to UnrealEd. Torque has a great in-engine editor for creating terrains and missions, and is compatible with industry standard building editors such as QuARK and Worldcraft.
Summary:
You are a student with 30 hours per week to learn the engine, code your game, and contribute to a community. We would love to see you become part of our community. It is a fun place to learn how to make games, you can make a difference, and your end product can make money. That sounds like a win win all the way around.
Besides, is the President of the Conitec personally trying to sell you on the A5??
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/16/2002 (12:07 pm)
Shane,This is the second time I have had to look into the A5 engine, so I went to their site today and really checked things out. Here is my opinion in an unbiased a manner as possible.
I think the A5 engine looks pretty good. In fact, I would say it is the biggest competition to the Torque on the market. If I were a student looking into game engines, and the Torque was not on the market, I would probably purchase the A5. However, the Torque is on the market, and it is a better engine at a better price.
To be honest, I think you will be a better looking game in a shorter time period with the A5 since they have concentrated more on ease of use then we have, but in the long haul, the Torque will allow to make a "shippable" game. However, we are working on our ease of use, and there is simply no comparison between the GG and A5 communities. Our community is much more active, much more accessible (their website is a mess), and more knowledgeable. At the GG site, you get industry veterans cruising the boards every day.
Here are some other differences:
Torque gives you the SOURCE code to the engine. The A5 gives you an API that is more and more crippled depending upon the version you purchase. You have to go all the way to the Professional version at $1,250 to even begin to get the features available in the Torque.
Torque provides you with a vastly superior terrain engine.
Torque provides you with the best networking in the business, even better than Unreal, Quake, or HL.
A5 does not help you get your game published. GG provides a marketplace for your game (coming May, 2002). A5 does not charge royalties, but you can get Torque royalties down to a very low level by contributing code back to the community.
A5 has an in-engine editor that appears to be similar to UnrealEd. Torque has a great in-engine editor for creating terrains and missions, and is compatible with industry standard building editors such as QuARK and Worldcraft.
Summary:
You are a student with 30 hours per week to learn the engine, code your game, and contribute to a community. We would love to see you become part of our community. It is a fun place to learn how to make games, you can make a difference, and your end product can make money. That sounds like a win win all the way around.
Besides, is the President of the Conitec personally trying to sell you on the A5??
Jeff Tunnell GG
#8
LOL
That's cheating. ;)
Quite honestly, as soon as Torque fixes what was broken from the Tribes 2 code-strip, I am going to dive head first into this engine (which will probably be about the time I finish my A5 Game).
I hope that's soon because I have big plans for this engine. :)
03/16/2002 (12:15 pm)
"Besides, is the President of the Conitec personally trying to sell you on the A5??"LOL
That's cheating. ;)
Quite honestly, as soon as Torque fixes what was broken from the Tribes 2 code-strip, I am going to dive head first into this engine (which will probably be about the time I finish my A5 Game).
I hope that's soon because I have big plans for this engine. :)
#9
I think I am going to follow my initial feelings and go with the Torque engine. I think I would benefit from it in the long run and how can I say "no" to the president =P
Shane
03/16/2002 (1:12 pm)
Thank you all for your responses.I think I am going to follow my initial feelings and go with the Torque engine. I think I would benefit from it in the long run and how can I say "no" to the president =P
Shane
#10
03/16/2002 (1:55 pm)
I have bought both A5 and Torque and IMHO TOrque is hands down the best: in its current state it is far superior on all levels. My particular needs required being able to access the source and have compatibility with the QuArK editor--Torque is the way to go!
#11
All in all, I am glad I bought it. It is powerful and unless you read all the docs and coded for it, you wont ever know just how powerful it really is.
I can't wait until Torque is up to T2 scriptability. I am a scripter (Aka: weenie coder) not a C++ programmer. :)
I suppose I should learn C++ a bit more, it's all a matter of time until I make the full switch anyway.
03/16/2002 (2:11 pm)
Yeah, I have to say that the one thing that drives me crazy is that I spent $1200+ and I don't get the source. Ahh well. :)All in all, I am glad I bought it. It is powerful and unless you read all the docs and coded for it, you wont ever know just how powerful it really is.
I can't wait until Torque is up to T2 scriptability. I am a scripter (Aka: weenie coder) not a C++ programmer. :)
I suppose I should learn C++ a bit more, it's all a matter of time until I make the full switch anyway.
Torque Owner Shane "Criimson" Barnett
The terrain editor to be specific...what is it like...object coding like doors, chars, vehicles and such I expect to edit through code, but what is the interface like to create the world.
I have gathered that buildings and such are made through Worldcraft...not a problem.....it has the typical 3D interface...and modeling, music I'll contract out for, so I'm not worried about that either...
Shane =)