World Geometry Clarification Please.
by Jeremy Swigart · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 02/25/2006 (9:56 am) · 9 replies
I've been reading quite a bit on the forums about the content pipeline for Torque, specifically the art pipeline for the world geometry itself(non dts stuff). If possible could I please get a high level clarification of some questions, so that I can educate the artists on my team? Thanks.
I've gathered that, like most games Torque uses specialized mapping tools such as Quark and Hammer and such to create brush based BSP geometry, for various reasons such as collision efficiency, portalling, etc.
Our artists are all pretty much Maya/Max users, so Quark and Hammer and stuff is largely new to them. There are some relatively crude tools such as MayaToMap, but after spending a good portion of the night actually getting it sorta working, it seems apparently that making world geometry(interiors) in a package such as Maya or Max is probably not the ideal route to take. I managed to get Maya2Map to export a map file that will load into quark, other than like 16 invalid polys or something. When trying to run it through map2dif_plus_tse.exe, it spits out a torque memory error, plus the .map file itself apparently did not export textures, as they are all NULL.
Is it correct to say that any world geometry that is to support complex collision is going to be required to be made as an bsp based 'interior' pretty much?
Is it correct to say that dts files are rather limited to simplified collision? Meaning one could not cheat and use dts files as simple map geometry that players could walk on and such(bridges, small huts that don't need portalling or interiors, etc...)
So as a content overview.
dts files are used as characters, vehicles, weapons
are dts files used for world props too?
dif files are used for non terrain world geometry, bridges, buildings, etc
Are there ANY reliable tools to go from maya or max to .map or some other format ultimately usable for world geometry? Our artists aren't too keen on having to learn a new program if they don't have to, in the spirit of saving time.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
I've gathered that, like most games Torque uses specialized mapping tools such as Quark and Hammer and such to create brush based BSP geometry, for various reasons such as collision efficiency, portalling, etc.
Our artists are all pretty much Maya/Max users, so Quark and Hammer and stuff is largely new to them. There are some relatively crude tools such as MayaToMap, but after spending a good portion of the night actually getting it sorta working, it seems apparently that making world geometry(interiors) in a package such as Maya or Max is probably not the ideal route to take. I managed to get Maya2Map to export a map file that will load into quark, other than like 16 invalid polys or something. When trying to run it through map2dif_plus_tse.exe, it spits out a torque memory error, plus the .map file itself apparently did not export textures, as they are all NULL.
Is it correct to say that any world geometry that is to support complex collision is going to be required to be made as an bsp based 'interior' pretty much?
Is it correct to say that dts files are rather limited to simplified collision? Meaning one could not cheat and use dts files as simple map geometry that players could walk on and such(bridges, small huts that don't need portalling or interiors, etc...)
So as a content overview.
dts files are used as characters, vehicles, weapons
are dts files used for world props too?
dif files are used for non terrain world geometry, bridges, buildings, etc
Are there ANY reliable tools to go from maya or max to .map or some other format ultimately usable for world geometry? Our artists aren't too keen on having to learn a new program if they don't have to, in the spirit of saving time.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
About the author
#2
02/25/2006 (12:03 pm)
Thanks man, always full of good info.
#3
02/26/2006 (11:50 am)
Still trying to convince them to use a proper mapping tool, but can you clarify what level of collision is possible on dts meshes please? Thanks.
#4
They may want to take a look at the buggy in the starter.racing mod to get an example--vehicles use dts's, with collision meshes (unlike player, which only use bounding box).
02/26/2006 (11:55 am)
Convex only, have to have separate collision hulls if a concavity requirement exists, and is very slow compared to BSP based (brush) collision. Meeting those requirements, it's poly based collision. Most people make things like boxes.They may want to take a look at the buggy in the starter.racing mod to get an example--vehicles use dts's, with collision meshes (unlike player, which only use bounding box).
#5
Most games with detailed graphics don't need all that much collision, a racing game like mine only requires about 1 colideable poly for every 30 visual ones.
Only problem is I get precision problems with map2dif that make a interesting track difficult to create collisions for. I think its the rounding off of floats since everything looks fine in map editiors and the map checking tools find no errors.
If your doing the usual architectural type non organic surfaces, you shouldn't have many problems using DTS and DIF in combination if you really want to.
02/26/2006 (12:08 pm)
You can make simple DIF collisions and detail DTS scenery that load together. You might want to consider the lighting pack in order to get any nice scene lighting on your levels if your going to work on that route.Most games with detailed graphics don't need all that much collision, a racing game like mine only requires about 1 colideable poly for every 30 visual ones.
Only problem is I get precision problems with map2dif that make a interesting track difficult to create collisions for. I think its the rounding off of floats since everything looks fine in map editiors and the map checking tools find no errors.
If your doing the usual architectural type non organic surfaces, you shouldn't have many problems using DTS and DIF in combination if you really want to.
#6
02/26/2006 (1:00 pm)
What is the recommended way to make caves/tunnel interiors? It seems like it would be rather painful to do that with a brush based tool. Is there a better way?
#7
One being the terrain tool. what that does is split your regular mesh into tri's and extrudes them into convex hull shapes.
It also has a map checker that will check your meshes for non convex shapes. and either try to fix them, or leave them selected for you to fix yourself.
I typicaly don't use GLB's tools and make all my brushes myself. Some easy ways are to draw shapes and extrude them, or use scripts like expolde polys in a poly mesh, and explode elements in a mesh, and then use the shell modifier to make them all into convex brush shapes.
You can make some pretty efficient maps this way if you know what your doing.
For info on GLB 3 for max, $40
www.maple3d.com/GLB3Page.htm
there is a older free version, but it is missing a lot of tools like convex and map checking and fixing tools. At the moment you will have problems if you want high floating point accuracy, and map2dif does round things off at the moment.
GLB3 does have some tools to make snapping to 1x1 units, but thats not always ideal.
Anyway, thats what I use, you do still need to load your maps into a regular editor before map2dif, since the GLB only supports base materials, and doesn't so texture mapping.
02/26/2006 (1:17 pm)
There are ways to quickly make those kinds of shapes. If you want to make maps from within 3ds max at least. If you buy Game Level Builder 3, it allows you to make maps from within 3dsmax and has some handy tools. One being the terrain tool. what that does is split your regular mesh into tri's and extrudes them into convex hull shapes.
It also has a map checker that will check your meshes for non convex shapes. and either try to fix them, or leave them selected for you to fix yourself.
I typicaly don't use GLB's tools and make all my brushes myself. Some easy ways are to draw shapes and extrude them, or use scripts like expolde polys in a poly mesh, and explode elements in a mesh, and then use the shell modifier to make them all into convex brush shapes.
You can make some pretty efficient maps this way if you know what your doing.
For info on GLB 3 for max, $40
www.maple3d.com/GLB3Page.htm
there is a older free version, but it is missing a lot of tools like convex and map checking and fixing tools. At the moment you will have problems if you want high floating point accuracy, and map2dif does round things off at the moment.
GLB3 does have some tools to make snapping to 1x1 units, but thats not always ideal.
Anyway, thats what I use, you do still need to load your maps into a regular editor before map2dif, since the GLB only supports base materials, and doesn't so texture mapping.
#8
02/26/2006 (1:29 pm)
Are interiors for TGE compatible with TSE?
#9
02/26/2006 (2:40 pm)
There's a seperate map2dif to TSE, but the maps should go through ok if they work for TGE. 
Torque 3D Owner Stephen Zepp
It will be hard to explain to your artists I know, but brush based and poly based editing are two fundamentally different concepts, and require two fundamentally different tools. They also require fundamentally different mindsets, and that can be hard for artists to transition between.
An analogy I like to use:
Consider a TSShape (which is basically what loads in a dts file format) as a wooden gazebo, and an Interior (which is what loads in a dif file format) as a toaster. There aren't many (any?) tools, techniques, or concepts that you would use to construct a wooden gazebo that would apply to constructing a toaster, or the other way round. However, both toasters and gazebos have certain advantages and disadvantages, and to properly and efficiently create them, you want to use the proper tools and techniques for best effect.
Currently, your artists are experts when it comes to making gazebos, but they aren't trained/equipped to be making toasters. You can either find some way to make wooden toasters that look outstanding and can protect you from the weather, but don't make toast very well, or you can teach your artists the tools and techniques for making toasters as well, and get the best of both worlds.