T2d Vs. Tgb
by Jared Coliadis · in Torque Game Builder · 02/14/2006 (8:28 pm) · 70 replies
Hello everybody. I've read in the recent newsletter that T2D is going to start going by the initials TGB to reduce confusion when it comes to newcomers/ the mainstream audience. People would see the 2D part of the moniker and see it as a limitation. I argue that the opposite holds true. Changing the name from Torque 2D to Torque Game Builder will only create more confusion.
Example 1: If I was a newcomer to GG's site, I would see three products: Torque Game Engine, Torque Shader Engine, and Torque Game Builder. First and foremost, I would question the difference between a Game Engine and a Game Builder. Being that I would be someone looking into making quality games, I would want an engine to do help me out. Seeing the word "builder" immediately makes me think that this isn't actually a game engine, but rather something dumbed down to "build" my game for me. I would completely ignore the real power that is Torque 2D: a quality game engine for needs that TGE can't easily provide.
Example 2: As an experienced 2D indie developer looking for a new engine to power my new "Super match-em-up-turbo-plus" game, I'm looking for something a little more than Flash can provide, but nothing with too much overhead. I stumble upon GG's site and see the same list: Torque Game Engine, Torque Shader Engine, and Torque Game Builder. Being an experienced developer, I first avert from the "builder", which gives me an image of code automation that I do not want to deal with. I look at the Torque Shader Engine first and try out the demo since shaders are the "new" thing in game development. It looks nice, but is way out of scope for my needs. I check out the Torque Game Engine second only to come to a similar conclusion. Almost giving up my search after deciding that these products are more than I need, I decide that I might as well try out the Torque Game Builder. This is exactly what I need! If only it had a more specific name as to what it is, I would have saved myself some time and saved GG some bandwidth!
My conclusion: As a name, the Torque 2D Game ENGINE makes the most sense. "Builder"s have bad associations (why isn't T2D considered an engine?), and dropping "2D" from the name altogether is misleading if not confusing. It's a great product, but it's mostly for a niche audience. I bought it because I wanted to make 2D games. I most likely would not have noticed it if it didn't have the 2D in the title.
Have a good day,
/Jared.
P.S. Expect a .plan in a week or so with some more tantalizing updates about the Adventure Core. Let's just say that there was a Great Undertaking Involved. ;)
Example 1: If I was a newcomer to GG's site, I would see three products: Torque Game Engine, Torque Shader Engine, and Torque Game Builder. First and foremost, I would question the difference between a Game Engine and a Game Builder. Being that I would be someone looking into making quality games, I would want an engine to do help me out. Seeing the word "builder" immediately makes me think that this isn't actually a game engine, but rather something dumbed down to "build" my game for me. I would completely ignore the real power that is Torque 2D: a quality game engine for needs that TGE can't easily provide.
Example 2: As an experienced 2D indie developer looking for a new engine to power my new "Super match-em-up-turbo-plus" game, I'm looking for something a little more than Flash can provide, but nothing with too much overhead. I stumble upon GG's site and see the same list: Torque Game Engine, Torque Shader Engine, and Torque Game Builder. Being an experienced developer, I first avert from the "builder", which gives me an image of code automation that I do not want to deal with. I look at the Torque Shader Engine first and try out the demo since shaders are the "new" thing in game development. It looks nice, but is way out of scope for my needs. I check out the Torque Game Engine second only to come to a similar conclusion. Almost giving up my search after deciding that these products are more than I need, I decide that I might as well try out the Torque Game Builder. This is exactly what I need! If only it had a more specific name as to what it is, I would have saved myself some time and saved GG some bandwidth!
My conclusion: As a name, the Torque 2D Game ENGINE makes the most sense. "Builder"s have bad associations (why isn't T2D considered an engine?), and dropping "2D" from the name altogether is misleading if not confusing. It's a great product, but it's mostly for a niche audience. I bought it because I wanted to make 2D games. I most likely would not have noticed it if it didn't have the 2D in the title.
Have a good day,
/Jared.
P.S. Expect a .plan in a week or so with some more tantalizing updates about the Adventure Core. Let's just say that there was a Great Undertaking Involved. ;)
#22
TGE
TSE
T2D
I will make assumptions about the 2d product and may not check it out unless I'm specifically making a 2d game. However with TGE/TSE I've no real indication as to what the product does, so I click on it and scan the sales pitch.
Contrast that to the suggested names we'd have
TGE
TSE
TBE
so lets say I'm making a 3d game, I'd more than likely review the features of all 3 products now. Which is why TBE needs to clearly state its 2d basis. However if I'm making a 2d game I'll still check out all 3 products and will see that TBE is the product for me.
The new name will not imo put off or prevent people from buying T2D. People will in general read the feature list for products that don't directly imply what they do from the name. The reverse is not always true. Some people may see T2D and make incorrect feature assumptions.
Its in GG's interest to make T2D as marketable as possible, its also in their interest to ensure the features clearly describe what the buying is getting to avoid requests for refunds. So I really don't see why the name change is such a problem.
02/16/2006 (4:12 am)
I think a lot of posts are taking a dim view of the average intelligence of people. So long as the GG sales speach for TGB states in some form that its a 2d engine then people will do fine. If I (and I'm sure other will do this) see a list of products such asTGE
TSE
T2D
I will make assumptions about the 2d product and may not check it out unless I'm specifically making a 2d game. However with TGE/TSE I've no real indication as to what the product does, so I click on it and scan the sales pitch.
Contrast that to the suggested names we'd have
TGE
TSE
TBE
so lets say I'm making a 3d game, I'd more than likely review the features of all 3 products now. Which is why TBE needs to clearly state its 2d basis. However if I'm making a 2d game I'll still check out all 3 products and will see that TBE is the product for me.
The new name will not imo put off or prevent people from buying T2D. People will in general read the feature list for products that don't directly imply what they do from the name. The reverse is not always true. Some people may see T2D and make incorrect feature assumptions.
Its in GG's interest to make T2D as marketable as possible, its also in their interest to ensure the features clearly describe what the buying is getting to avoid requests for refunds. So I really don't see why the name change is such a problem.
#23
That's the first thing that comes to mind when I hear Game Maker or Game Builder or anything similair.
I came to the Torque Game Engine first and foremost because the name represented exactly the kind of product I needed. An engine... An engine that I could take by the horns and harness as much power as I could.
I don't think I have ever even been to the GameMaker website. Why would I want to? I already know what I'm going to find, just by the name.
Of course, if it were named differently there would be less sales... but you wouldn't have a pack of noobs. You'd have noobs and a loose core of serious developers making great products with your engine. Just like the TGE.
What does GG want more, engine sales, or great games being made with their engine that can be sold through GG.
I'm not saying your decision is wrong. What I'm saying is you've tipped the scales to far. You've went from a well targeted name to a generic name. You need to find something in the middle that can hit both kinds of developers.
Just my opinion, of course.
02/16/2006 (4:41 am)
A game builder is a simplified, dumbed down version of a game engine. You get no source, limited feature set accessed by an SDK or API, and a pack of noobs gnawing at anything shiny... That's the first thing that comes to mind when I hear Game Maker or Game Builder or anything similair.
I came to the Torque Game Engine first and foremost because the name represented exactly the kind of product I needed. An engine... An engine that I could take by the horns and harness as much power as I could.
I don't think I have ever even been to the GameMaker website. Why would I want to? I already know what I'm going to find, just by the name.
Of course, if it were named differently there would be less sales... but you wouldn't have a pack of noobs. You'd have noobs and a loose core of serious developers making great products with your engine. Just like the TGE.
What does GG want more, engine sales, or great games being made with their engine that can be sold through GG.
I'm not saying your decision is wrong. What I'm saying is you've tipped the scales to far. You've went from a well targeted name to a generic name. You need to find something in the middle that can hit both kinds of developers.
Just my opinion, of course.
#24
02/16/2006 (12:51 pm)
Mod Note: Post removed--off topic, and inflammatory (probably wasn't intended that way, but it was)
#25
About 8 years ago, when I was in middle school, game development started to peak my interest. I purchased Klik and Play from Maxis, since I would get mailings every now and then about their new games/products. I got decent at the demo they had available beforehand, but it wouldn't let you save your projects and, almost more importantly, did not give access to the custom event editor.
I quickly installed the game with the 4 floppy disks they shipped. Almost immediately, I start up a new project, place a couple random items, and went straight to the event editor. Lo and behold, this is much more restrictive than I was expecting it to be! Where can I put in game logic? No declaring variables without an instantiated object?! I can't call any subroutines? Literally, all the "stimulus-response" pseudo-coding to be done was all "Click and Play".
Determined, I started to figure out some workarounds. I made great use of invisible objects to work in some logic to my game. I had counter objects and other chains to do the calculations that I needed to get my ideas to work. With some effort, I start to produce some rather decent gameplay way beyond the capability of any of the sample games shown. I'll admit, my IP wasn't so original (I was on a Star Wars kick at the time, but I was 12...), but I was making solid, playable, and fun games using a whole lot of workarounds to the "simplicity" of the program.
Feeling pretty good about my work, I start to venture around the Internet on my blazing fast 14.4 baud modem for other people's work. I found several good resources with a decent and diverse selection of games from other developers. Excited to see other's creations, I was shocked. There were countless permutations of the same exact gameplay demos that Maxis had provided. Some added a couple balls to the ball bouncing game, some added some nice graphics to basically the same game again, and who knows how many different side-scrolling shooters there were. Everybody stole from pretty much the same game that one person released. These games felt generic, these games felt soulless, and most importantly, the majority of these games were not fun.
Yes, there were a couple of others out there that had a decent game, (one in particular was a console style RPG who's name I forget) but a great number of these games made me feel embarassed that I was using Klik and Play to make my games. Ever since then, I've stayed away from tools that have a "friendly" name instead of a professional, respectable name.
Where am I getting at? I want the games I develop on T2D to be taken seriously. I love the engine and I want it to have a good reputation for being able to make quality games. Making it "friendlier" is going to shy away those of us who are planning to release a full-scale product. I plan on using T2D to start my career into game development, but I won't get any credibility if T2D is considered a "beginner's builder".
02/16/2006 (3:38 pm)
Let's see if I can further explain why I am so concerned.About 8 years ago, when I was in middle school, game development started to peak my interest. I purchased Klik and Play from Maxis, since I would get mailings every now and then about their new games/products. I got decent at the demo they had available beforehand, but it wouldn't let you save your projects and, almost more importantly, did not give access to the custom event editor.
I quickly installed the game with the 4 floppy disks they shipped. Almost immediately, I start up a new project, place a couple random items, and went straight to the event editor. Lo and behold, this is much more restrictive than I was expecting it to be! Where can I put in game logic? No declaring variables without an instantiated object?! I can't call any subroutines? Literally, all the "stimulus-response" pseudo-coding to be done was all "Click and Play".
Determined, I started to figure out some workarounds. I made great use of invisible objects to work in some logic to my game. I had counter objects and other chains to do the calculations that I needed to get my ideas to work. With some effort, I start to produce some rather decent gameplay way beyond the capability of any of the sample games shown. I'll admit, my IP wasn't so original (I was on a Star Wars kick at the time, but I was 12...), but I was making solid, playable, and fun games using a whole lot of workarounds to the "simplicity" of the program.
Feeling pretty good about my work, I start to venture around the Internet on my blazing fast 14.4 baud modem for other people's work. I found several good resources with a decent and diverse selection of games from other developers. Excited to see other's creations, I was shocked. There were countless permutations of the same exact gameplay demos that Maxis had provided. Some added a couple balls to the ball bouncing game, some added some nice graphics to basically the same game again, and who knows how many different side-scrolling shooters there were. Everybody stole from pretty much the same game that one person released. These games felt generic, these games felt soulless, and most importantly, the majority of these games were not fun.
Yes, there were a couple of others out there that had a decent game, (one in particular was a console style RPG who's name I forget) but a great number of these games made me feel embarassed that I was using Klik and Play to make my games. Ever since then, I've stayed away from tools that have a "friendly" name instead of a professional, respectable name.
Where am I getting at? I want the games I develop on T2D to be taken seriously. I love the engine and I want it to have a good reputation for being able to make quality games. Making it "friendlier" is going to shy away those of us who are planning to release a full-scale product. I plan on using T2D to start my career into game development, but I won't get any credibility if T2D is considered a "beginner's builder".
#26
However, I can understand there are people who "poo poo" 2D. It doesn't have the sexy media buzz that 3D does for the suits and ties (I know, I have given a presentation about a 2D game to investors - it didn't go well), or the hardcore eye-candy is the only thing that matters gamers crowd, or a lot of other people. So yeah, T2D may not be the best name. I will concede that.
However, I really have to question the "Game Builder" name. Like Jared, the Builder name makes me nervous about the perceived credibility of the engine. I find it very hard to take seriously any product with a name that includes: Builder, Maker, Factory or the like. Yes, it may attract some people less experienced users who are looking for something simple, but it will put off a lot of people who consider themselves "serious programmers" and the same suits and ties who don't like 2D won't like a Builder, because it sounds "like an under-powered toy" regardless of any features they see.
So, that being said, you've already got my $80 for T2D. A name change isn't going to stop me from using it. I will continue to recommend it to colleagues (although for the time being I will still probably refer to it as T2D). I completely understand that marketing can be quite difficult and a good name can make all the difference in the world, I would just hate to see Garage Games get rid of one name because it was too limiting only to find the new name has the same kind of problem.
02/16/2006 (5:26 pm)
Like Gregory, the name "Torque 2D" really helped sell me on the product. 2D really doesn't have a negative connotation to me, and I really think that is the best description of what T2D/TGB is: a Torque-quality game engine, but in 2D!However, I can understand there are people who "poo poo" 2D. It doesn't have the sexy media buzz that 3D does for the suits and ties (I know, I have given a presentation about a 2D game to investors - it didn't go well), or the hardcore eye-candy is the only thing that matters gamers crowd, or a lot of other people. So yeah, T2D may not be the best name. I will concede that.
However, I really have to question the "Game Builder" name. Like Jared, the Builder name makes me nervous about the perceived credibility of the engine. I find it very hard to take seriously any product with a name that includes: Builder, Maker, Factory or the like. Yes, it may attract some people less experienced users who are looking for something simple, but it will put off a lot of people who consider themselves "serious programmers" and the same suits and ties who don't like 2D won't like a Builder, because it sounds "like an under-powered toy" regardless of any features they see.
So, that being said, you've already got my $80 for T2D. A name change isn't going to stop me from using it. I will continue to recommend it to colleagues (although for the time being I will still probably refer to it as T2D). I completely understand that marketing can be quite difficult and a good name can make all the difference in the world, I would just hate to see Garage Games get rid of one name because it was too limiting only to find the new name has the same kind of problem.
#27
I am an owner of T2D, TGE and TSE. Though T2D can display 3d objects, it displays them in a 2D space. You many moons ago changed the name to Torque and I believe Torque 2D tells me and anyone who is interested what the engine is. There is nothing wrong with the T2D IMHO. From many of the posts above, the reason I bought the engine was because it was a 2D engine. I grew up with an C64 and Amiga and I have a nostalgia for 2D games.
I don't agree with the name change at is only makes it more confusing. This is from another post. Is it the web page or the name change that is confusing?
"It looks like Torque is a good choice, but the web page is confusing--
There are five different products listed (2D Gamebuilder, Game Engine,
Shader Engine, Tools, Content/Art Packs). Or maybe there's only one
(Torque 2D Indie, $100). If I have to tell her to shell out much more
than $100, forget it."
Garagegames obviously can name the engine what they want though I would recommend they reconsider.
Bryan
02/16/2006 (6:21 pm)
I am going to add my $.02.I am an owner of T2D, TGE and TSE. Though T2D can display 3d objects, it displays them in a 2D space. You many moons ago changed the name to Torque and I believe Torque 2D tells me and anyone who is interested what the engine is. There is nothing wrong with the T2D IMHO. From many of the posts above, the reason I bought the engine was because it was a 2D engine. I grew up with an C64 and Amiga and I have a nostalgia for 2D games.
I don't agree with the name change at is only makes it more confusing. This is from another post. Is it the web page or the name change that is confusing?
"It looks like Torque is a good choice, but the web page is confusing--
There are five different products listed (2D Gamebuilder, Game Engine,
Shader Engine, Tools, Content/Art Packs). Or maybe there's only one
(Torque 2D Indie, $100). If I have to tell her to shell out much more
than $100, forget it."
Garagegames obviously can name the engine what they want though I would recommend they reconsider.
Bryan
#28
02/16/2006 (8:46 pm)
I just hope we don't have to go through the code and change every t2d prefix to tgb...
#29
*I made the change from fx to t2d*
02/17/2006 (4:01 pm)
Quote:you!!! how do you dare to scare me... :)
I just hope we don't have to go through the code and change every t2d prefix to tgb
*I made the change from fx to t2d*
#30
;D
02/18/2006 (1:47 am)
I think someone from GG already warned about that in another post, and they said Quote:"it's just a matter of searching and replacing with your IDE"
;D
#32
So, since we probably can't change what is coming, we can at least have a bit of fun playing what if and make our own 3 word name for T2D. :) Well, Torque will have to stay the first word, second should probably be Game although that might be a bit more flexible, and the last word we'll get from the thesaurus:
Main Entry: engine
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: device
Synonyms: agent, apparatus, appliance, barrel, contrivance, cylinder, diesel, dynamo, fan, generator, horses, implement, instrument, means, mechanism, motor, piston, pot, power plant, power train, powerhouse, putt putt, rubber band, tool, transformer, turbine, weapon
Hmm, Torque 2 Cylinder Engine (TCE)? Or...
Main Entry: builder
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: constructor
Synonyms: architect, artisan, constructor, contractor, craftsman, erector, fabricator, framer, inventor, maker, manufacturer, mason, originator, producer
Main Entry: engineer
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: designer
Synonyms: architect, bridge monkey, builder, contriver, designer, deviser, director, inventor, manager, manipulator, motorman, originator, planner, schemer, sights, surveyor, techie, technie
Clearly Torque Bridge Monkey is a winner, or rather Torque Game Monkey if we really want to avoid customer confusion with the product. :)
02/18/2006 (8:08 am)
Although I can't say I am thrilled with the name change, I guess most EA people probably aren't since we bought this product because it is 2D. When the final release comes around and marketed to the wider public, I understand at least the viewpoint of GG. I guess I am concerned as well what the "game builder" connotation will be regarded as, although in the end the quality of the game made should have the final word.So, since we probably can't change what is coming, we can at least have a bit of fun playing what if and make our own 3 word name for T2D. :) Well, Torque will have to stay the first word, second should probably be Game although that might be a bit more flexible, and the last word we'll get from the thesaurus:
Main Entry: engine
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: device
Synonyms: agent, apparatus, appliance, barrel, contrivance, cylinder, diesel, dynamo, fan, generator, horses, implement, instrument, means, mechanism, motor, piston, pot, power plant, power train, powerhouse, putt putt, rubber band, tool, transformer, turbine, weapon
Hmm, Torque 2 Cylinder Engine (TCE)? Or...
Main Entry: builder
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: constructor
Synonyms: architect, artisan, constructor, contractor, craftsman, erector, fabricator, framer, inventor, maker, manufacturer, mason, originator, producer
Main Entry: engineer
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: designer
Synonyms: architect, bridge monkey, builder, contriver, designer, deviser, director, inventor, manager, manipulator, motorman, originator, planner, schemer, sights, surveyor, techie, technie
Clearly Torque Bridge Monkey is a winner, or rather Torque Game Monkey if we really want to avoid customer confusion with the product. :)
#33
I don't really think the name is important but do think giving it some more 3d function in future editions is a good idea and would be a nice gentle introduction to 3d to 2d'ers like myself.
but again am I missing a news letter?
02/18/2006 (8:28 am)
I have a question, what newsletter? I signed up for the t2d one but have never recieved a thing?I don't really think the name is important but do think giving it some more 3d function in future editions is a good idea and would be a nice gentle introduction to 3d to 2d'ers like myself.
but again am I missing a news letter?
#34
Maybe you should call T2D both T2D and TGB. that way people looking for a 2D game engine will get to T2D, and those looking for a game builder will get to TGB. all you will really need to do is write TGB/T2D in the product pages title, and add another link in the products menu, saying "T2D"(have two links, not only one).
edit: the newsletter is supposed to come, but GG dont send it regularily, what you clicked means "when there is a newsletter, send it to me".
hope that helps,
lee-orr
02/18/2006 (8:35 am)
Just a suggestion, that might lessen the confusion.Maybe you should call T2D both T2D and TGB. that way people looking for a 2D game engine will get to T2D, and those looking for a game builder will get to TGB. all you will really need to do is write TGB/T2D in the product pages title, and add another link in the products menu, saying "T2D"(have two links, not only one).
edit: the newsletter is supposed to come, but GG dont send it regularily, what you clicked means "when there is a newsletter, send it to me".
hope that helps,
lee-orr
#35
I think I'll go and see if I can find a new one?
is there an archieve of them anywhere?
also anyone have a link to where you sign up to it.
I think i signed up to it on the t2d page on the old site layout.
02/18/2006 (8:57 am)
Yeah I signed up not long after it was released to the public and have never recived a thing. I think I'll go and see if I can find a new one?
is there an archieve of them anywhere?
also anyone have a link to where you sign up to it.
I think i signed up to it on the t2d page on the old site layout.
#36
Here is the article:
Torque 2D Game Builder (TGB) Reaches Beta!
With a huge tip of the hat to the development team of Melv May, Josh Williams, Justin Dujardin, Matt Langley, Adam Larsen, and Paul Scott, we just shipped the PC and OS-X versions of TGB. This is a huge accomplishment! If you have been holding off from buying TGB because you were waiting for it to become stable, you no longer need to wait. Even before we reached Beta, TGB was stable enough to make games, with commercial games coming from Tik Games, Large Animal, Grim Inventions, but now it is rock solid, and ready to deliver any kind of 2D game you can imagine.
When TGB was released last year, we knew it would be good, but this Beta is even better than we had hoped. Originally, our intention was to finish the engine, then move on to editors to help make game creation easier. Turns out that we have been able to create editors for particle effects, GUI creation, packaging, and level editing which makes the game creation process much easier and more accessible. At this point we need to give a huge shout out to Large Animal for their initial efforts in creating the Level Editor for use in their commercial games, King Kong and Saints and Sinners Bowling.
If you have been following TGB development, some of improvements in the Beta version are true 3D objects, much faster rigid body physics, a packaging utility that helps pull out all unneeded files prior to launching your game, the above mentioned level editor, and a huge increase in performance. From now until the final version of TGB, we will be polishing up the editors, making more and more and more documentation, creating more walk throughs and examples, and filling up the pipeline with pre-created 2D art.
An a side note, assuming we get the OK from the attorneys, we will be calling the product Torque Game Builder, dropping the 2D part of the original name. The reason for this is that outside of the GarageGames community the 2D part of the name is very limiting. We noticed that most game makers do not differentiate that they are 2D. For instance, Flash is not called Flash 2D. We envision TGB being a very mainstream product and do not want to limit its potential with a limited moniker.
02/18/2006 (9:46 am)
You can sign up or change the newsletter subscriptions with the My Account link up top, then Edit Mailing List Preferences.Here is the article:
Torque 2D Game Builder (TGB) Reaches Beta!
With a huge tip of the hat to the development team of Melv May, Josh Williams, Justin Dujardin, Matt Langley, Adam Larsen, and Paul Scott, we just shipped the PC and OS-X versions of TGB. This is a huge accomplishment! If you have been holding off from buying TGB because you were waiting for it to become stable, you no longer need to wait. Even before we reached Beta, TGB was stable enough to make games, with commercial games coming from Tik Games, Large Animal, Grim Inventions, but now it is rock solid, and ready to deliver any kind of 2D game you can imagine.
When TGB was released last year, we knew it would be good, but this Beta is even better than we had hoped. Originally, our intention was to finish the engine, then move on to editors to help make game creation easier. Turns out that we have been able to create editors for particle effects, GUI creation, packaging, and level editing which makes the game creation process much easier and more accessible. At this point we need to give a huge shout out to Large Animal for their initial efforts in creating the Level Editor for use in their commercial games, King Kong and Saints and Sinners Bowling.
If you have been following TGB development, some of improvements in the Beta version are true 3D objects, much faster rigid body physics, a packaging utility that helps pull out all unneeded files prior to launching your game, the above mentioned level editor, and a huge increase in performance. From now until the final version of TGB, we will be polishing up the editors, making more and more and more documentation, creating more walk throughs and examples, and filling up the pipeline with pre-created 2D art.
An a side note, assuming we get the OK from the attorneys, we will be calling the product Torque Game Builder, dropping the 2D part of the original name. The reason for this is that outside of the GarageGames community the 2D part of the name is very limiting. We noticed that most game makers do not differentiate that they are 2D. For instance, Flash is not called Flash 2D. We envision TGB being a very mainstream product and do not want to limit its potential with a limited moniker.
#37
Long term, I don't really think you have a problem -- there are serious developers in the GarageGames camp already, and with all of your XBox marketing that will probably continue. I guess I'm just one of those folks whose eyes skip over anything with "game maker", "game builder", etc. in the title. The name just screams out "not a serious product".
I realize that it will continue to BE a serious product -- but new developers may not see it that way at first glance... especially when they check the community and come across the 20,000 new folks who bought it BECAUSE of the new name...
on the bright side -- that's 20,000 new sales... Meh -- I guess it's just a difference in opinion / values....
I think the GG community that has grown up around the death of Tribes is a great thing... T2D users have proven by and large just as serious and interesting and capable as the old guard. I fear for this community once the marketing drive begins for T2D being a game builder.
02/20/2006 (8:23 pm)
I'll add my name to the list of those who'd like to see the focus more on creating a powerful and useful engine than on a powerfully selling widget for clicking together "games". With many "game builders" that have come before, the easier it gets to use, the more ridiculous garbage you have to wade through before you get to a real product. Questions like "have any 'commercial' games been created with this thing?" pop into the head of the actual developers who are shopping for tools. If when they go to find the answer to this question, they find something similar to the GameMaker community -- they will shy away... Long term, I don't really think you have a problem -- there are serious developers in the GarageGames camp already, and with all of your XBox marketing that will probably continue. I guess I'm just one of those folks whose eyes skip over anything with "game maker", "game builder", etc. in the title. The name just screams out "not a serious product".
I realize that it will continue to BE a serious product -- but new developers may not see it that way at first glance... especially when they check the community and come across the 20,000 new folks who bought it BECAUSE of the new name...
on the bright side -- that's 20,000 new sales... Meh -- I guess it's just a difference in opinion / values....
I think the GG community that has grown up around the death of Tribes is a great thing... T2D users have proven by and large just as serious and interesting and capable as the old guard. I fear for this community once the marketing drive begins for T2D being a game builder.
#38
Hehe, call it whatever you want, I'll never use anything but a GG Engine...
02/27/2006 (12:56 pm)
Hmm... Torque Game Builder? Something about it just doesn't sound right. I'm gonna miss calling it T2D. However, I can understand the need to increase sales, etc... Hey, maybe we can all get together and be one big Indie Corporation, lol!Hehe, call it whatever you want, I'll never use anything but a GG Engine...
#39
I spent weeks searching google for a 2D game engine. Only to find T2D and fall in love....
But had it not been called T2D, it prolly wouldnt have been in the results, hence loosing some customers like me....
Engine warms to my senses, because I have bad experience with builders, (They generally have very few options). An engine implies that it is the core to the game but it is not going to make your game. If you say you made your game using a "builder", you will be looked down on...
Well thats all I have to say...
T2DGE sounds fun xD. Just rename TGE to T3DGE or Tourque Game Engine3 (cubed) and TGE2 (squared).
Thats all I have to say....
- Ricky
02/27/2006 (3:19 pm)
You need to keep 2D there, as for example:I spent weeks searching google for a 2D game engine. Only to find T2D and fall in love....
But had it not been called T2D, it prolly wouldnt have been in the results, hence loosing some customers like me....
Engine warms to my senses, because I have bad experience with builders, (They generally have very few options). An engine implies that it is the core to the game but it is not going to make your game. If you say you made your game using a "builder", you will be looked down on...
Well thats all I have to say...
T2DGE sounds fun xD. Just rename TGE to T3DGE or Tourque Game Engine3 (cubed) and TGE2 (squared).
Thats all I have to say....
- Ricky
#40
02/27/2006 (3:33 pm)
T2D, or TGB, is one of the, if not the, most powerful 2D engine out there isn't it? I would not be worried about losing serious developers because of a name change, the news of TGBs power will spread. Any serious developer will know, or find out while searching, about the power of TGB. If we gain increased awareness of GG and the power of the Torque engines through a name change then it has got to be a good thing right? 
Associate Phil Shenk
I can get behind that. I had initial reservations about the name change, the same issues that have already been brought up. But if that's the mission statement that's driving the decision, then I think it's right on target.
Not only that, but the I think it's a noble cause that I've always believed in, and I'm glad that GG is taking it on seriously. I've always been a little amazed at how and why GG is even in existence. They seem to be really taking responsibility for helping to grow the indie community, more so than a lot of companies that pay lip service to the small, independent developer, but are ultimately out to cut and run with a quick buck.
If I were a high school or college student starting out, I'd love to get hooked up with game builder. The fact that it's so powerful only means that they will be able to grow into it, and learn much more than they would with a more rigorously structured package like Flash.