Convex? Would it be possible...?
by Michael Niedda · in Artist Corner · 02/11/2006 (5:47 pm) · 5 replies
...to build the entire level in Max and then export as a .map file? Im gonna guess "No"
Whats on my mind is, is it possible to build a level from scratch using good ole Max tools like Poly Edit with its array of surface modification tools, i.e. Chamfer, Bevel, Extrude, Connect, Cap, Bridge? I did a little research and found that so far theres 2 ways of building a level, Convex shapes Method and Subtracting Method (Unreal 2). I heard of a 3rd, which is what Im asking about and the only engine that supports it is Gambryo, from what I heard. Of course theres probably 100 other ways.
Im a noob to this level building thing, I want to just test out a level with a character, but, the methods to create a level kinda freaks me out. Why do we have to use convex shapes? Whats the purpose of shaping everything with individual pieces and not just create a single mesh to define a shape. Like a wall with a window/hole in it. How come it has to be cut up in pieces just so theres a hole in the wall? Why not just build a single wall object with a hole in it?
And why all the extra geometry? Does it disappear when exporting to .MAP or are the hidden meshes still there? If so does it cause a performance drop?
I tried Quark, Worldcraft, and GLB, GLB is probably my fav, although its kinda buggy and still doesnt support textures as far as I know which means I still gotta go in Quark to apply textures and stuff. I'm probably just being lazy but I'd like to know why the Convex method and not just build id out in Max or any other 3D app?
Whats on my mind is, is it possible to build a level from scratch using good ole Max tools like Poly Edit with its array of surface modification tools, i.e. Chamfer, Bevel, Extrude, Connect, Cap, Bridge? I did a little research and found that so far theres 2 ways of building a level, Convex shapes Method and Subtracting Method (Unreal 2). I heard of a 3rd, which is what Im asking about and the only engine that supports it is Gambryo, from what I heard. Of course theres probably 100 other ways.
Im a noob to this level building thing, I want to just test out a level with a character, but, the methods to create a level kinda freaks me out. Why do we have to use convex shapes? Whats the purpose of shaping everything with individual pieces and not just create a single mesh to define a shape. Like a wall with a window/hole in it. How come it has to be cut up in pieces just so theres a hole in the wall? Why not just build a single wall object with a hole in it?
And why all the extra geometry? Does it disappear when exporting to .MAP or are the hidden meshes still there? If so does it cause a performance drop?
I tried Quark, Worldcraft, and GLB, GLB is probably my fav, although its kinda buggy and still doesnt support textures as far as I know which means I still gotta go in Quark to apply textures and stuff. I'm probably just being lazy but I'd like to know why the Convex method and not just build id out in Max or any other 3D app?
About the author
#2
Adrian Tysoe's group is working on a 3DS Max artflow to TGE which sounds rather nice. I haven't heard much more about it in a while, but he seems pretty happy with it. I have no idea if it will every see the light in public, though.
02/12/2006 (11:45 am)
There are a number of engines which allow it. At Martin noted, the main cost is one in efficiency with collision and view detection. It is extremely cheap and fast to traverse a BSP or OctTree. Yet polygonal levels require a number of programming hoops (and artist hoops to make sure it doesn't slow to a crawl via badly optimized level) to force view-distance, etc.Adrian Tysoe's group is working on a 3DS Max artflow to TGE which sounds rather nice. I haven't heard much more about it in a while, but he seems pretty happy with it. I have no idea if it will every see the light in public, though.
#3
I was messing around with a few world builders after I posted this and found that QuArK may be my best bet, I tried something else called 3D World Studio (trial version). Which would you guys recommend? Whats so great about 3WS that it has to cost me $80 to purchase? What am i getting thats not in QuArK which is free? The only thing I can think of is maybe the whole light rendering thing, though I thought Quark had it too. And does Quark export lightmaps/shadowmaps?
Also, I dont suppose theres anyway to make round, spherical, cylindrical object surfaces smooth instead of faceted?
Sorry for all the questions BTW, i figure if I'm getting into something big, I mind as well know everything first before I get ahead of myself :P
02/12/2006 (1:04 pm)
Thanx guys, thats the kind of explanation I was looking for :) I kinda had a feeling it had something to do with collision but now its clearer to me. I was messing around with a few world builders after I posted this and found that QuArK may be my best bet, I tried something else called 3D World Studio (trial version). Which would you guys recommend? Whats so great about 3WS that it has to cost me $80 to purchase? What am i getting thats not in QuArK which is free? The only thing I can think of is maybe the whole light rendering thing, though I thought Quark had it too. And does Quark export lightmaps/shadowmaps?
Also, I dont suppose theres anyway to make round, spherical, cylindrical object surfaces smooth instead of faceted?
Sorry for all the questions BTW, i figure if I'm getting into something big, I mind as well know everything first before I get ahead of myself :P
#4
Heres a small script that will check all your shapes and tell you whether they are convex or not.
Don't let anybody tell ya that MAX can't build geometry for a level. The fact is MAX can do anything you want it to do. Just depends on how far your willing to modify it.
I have another one that will run through all you stuff find any one that is not convex and break it up neatly to create a convex hull. Any faces added gets textures with NULL. I got it wrote kinda rough and I really don't pass it around because its a little hard to use. Mostly because of lazyness. Maybe I'll sahape it up one of these days.
Anyway build your building in MAX. Apply textures but don't uv map anything just export it to quark then texture it in Quark. You can take the original model from MAX and spice it up with all kinds of materials (blends, top&bottom, Noise ect....) and use it to bake out texture maps for areas that need more detail. Then apply the texture maps in Quark using shared faces and the face_texture editor.
Lots possibilties, if you think about it a bit and make it work.
Matt
02/12/2006 (3:05 pm)
You can do it. And use GLB map exporter. You'll still have to texture and stuff in Quark but alot of that can be enhanced by MAX. Heres a small script that will check all your shapes and tell you whether they are convex or not.
fn ConvexShapeCheck = (
For i = 1 to Geometry.count do (
obj = Geometry[i]
If (reactor.reactorInterface.GetIsConvex obj 0) == false then (
Format "% is not Convex" obj.name
) else Format "% is OK" obj.name
)
)
-- example use
ConvexShapeCheck ()
-- check your listner window for results.Don't let anybody tell ya that MAX can't build geometry for a level. The fact is MAX can do anything you want it to do. Just depends on how far your willing to modify it.
I have another one that will run through all you stuff find any one that is not convex and break it up neatly to create a convex hull. Any faces added gets textures with NULL. I got it wrote kinda rough and I really don't pass it around because its a little hard to use. Mostly because of lazyness. Maybe I'll sahape it up one of these days.
Anyway build your building in MAX. Apply textures but don't uv map anything just export it to quark then texture it in Quark. You can take the original model from MAX and spice it up with all kinds of materials (blends, top&bottom, Noise ect....) and use it to bake out texture maps for areas that need more detail. Then apply the texture maps in Quark using shared faces and the face_texture editor.
Lots possibilties, if you think about it a bit and make it work.
Matt
#5
I'm testing out Max right now with grid snaps and using modifiers on group objects, cant use soft selection on grouped shapes :( ah well, tryin out some other cool stuff though. Thanx again.
02/12/2006 (9:03 pm)
Wow awesome Matt, thanx alot. That other script sounds pretty helpful too, hope to use it some day ;) I'm testing out Max right now with grid snaps and using modifiers on group objects, cant use soft selection on grouped shapes :( ah well, tryin out some other cool stuff though. Thanx again.
Torque 3D Owner Martin "Founder" Hoover
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