TLK1.4 has issues

#1 OOPS, here are the Images......





DeathTwister
Quantum Psychics is the future of man, as he stands up and takes stock of his mind. he can for the first time build a new reality.
ATOMIX Productions
www.theatomizer.com
Klamath, CA.
maylock@theatomizer.com

#2 The white areas are pretty obviously missing textures, I suggest you look at your console.log to see what didn't get merged properly into your combined build.

The missing shadows is most likely missing TLK datablock values (I seem to remember TLK TSShapes need to be set to receive shadows for certain conditions, but I'm not an expert in using the TLK itself). It's also possible that your code merge wasn't completely successful.

Given that we have no idea how complex your project's source code changes are, nor how you applied the upgrade, it's difficult to provide answers to your questions.

#3 I'm having difficulty understanding your post, TLK (the Torque Lighting Kit) is the Lighting Pack - you shouldn't add the Lighting Pack to TLK.

Was this project created using pure TLK code or was TLK added to the project? If you added it to an existing project, then try using the TLK 1.4 release code unchanged to see if you have the same problems.

In TLK 1.4 the shadows can be disabled while modeling for faster relights, make sure you didn't turn them off (you can check to see if they're on/off in the Light Editor under the Quality menu).

Btw: as far as I know there are no TLK bugs, if you are seeing some you need to report them or I won't know to fix them.

#4 "I'm having difficulty understanding your post"

I wouldn't let it get to you. This seems to be his persona. "Everybody else screwed up". He posts at 3d world Studio forums and the very same thing. "I don't understand whats going on... but... I'm pretty sure you screwed up"

LOL
Matt

#5 First off Hi all good to see you guys also, DeathTwister here.........

Second, I am sorry but you changed the name of the Lighting packs, it was lighting pack 1.35 and the only thing that was changed when we switched over to the new build was the .EXE from 1.35 to 1.4 everything else is Identical. OK? so lets start from there.

Quote:The white areas are pretty obviously missing textures, I suggest you look at your console.log to see what didn't get merged properly into your combined build.

Well guys....WRONG the textures are all there dudes trust me when I say that. It is the lighting that went blewy on us. It is so bright that you can't see the texures is all.

Quote:The missing shadows is most likely missing TLK datablock values (I seem to remember TLK TSShapes need to be set to receive shadows for certain conditions, but I'm not an expert in using the TLK itself). It's also possible that your code merge wasn't completely successful.

When we install a new TLK we shouldn't have to do a sdfhdhj to make it work. When you buy a new Plugin for say Photo Shop you don't have to re-write their program to make it work do you? neither should we have to re-write code just to make your stuff work is my thinking in this. Besides Stephen if you really don't know how this TLK really works why are you putting your 2 cents in brother? I sure wouldn't post coments if I don't know what I am talking about. That is why I have reframed so far from posting as I wanted to make sure we did have trouble before I opened my mouth here. and that I did know what I was talking about as well.

Quote:Given that we have no idea how complex your project's source code changes are, nor how you applied the upgrade, it's difficult to provide answers to your questions.

The build we use hasn't been touched at all in 1.35 or 1.4 it is all there. We simply re-compiled the .exe is all we did from the other build. Simple right? that is all we did from either build dude.

Quote:I'm having difficulty understanding your post, TLK (the Torque Lighting Kit) is the Lighting Pack - you shouldn't add the Lighting Pack to TLK.

I am sorry do I need to speak ebonic's? /chuckles sorry bout that just kidding brother. OK I should have said we were using TGE 1.35 with lighting pack and using TGE 1.4 with TLK in it. Is that better brother as we used it exactly as it was downloaded. Now you see our plight here guys.

Quote:Was this project created using pure TLK code or was TLK added to the project? If you added it to an existing project, then try using the TLK 1.4 release code unchanged to see if you have the same problems.

I have answered that, everything is the same we have changed nothing. They both should look exactly alike but they don't. HAY we would be more then happy to send you the console logs from both if anyone is interested. My Programmer Shon goes through them line by line looking for chit. He is a clean freak and don't like messy logs at all.

Quote:In TLK 1.4 the shadows can be disabled while modeling for faster relights, make sure you didn't turn them off (you can check to see if they're on/off in the Light Editor under the Quality menu).

WOW I didn't know we could do that, WAY KEWL thanks for the info guys that is a good one. No, we didn't do that, but is it on our todo list now that we do know.

Quote:Btw: as far as I know there are no TLK bugs, if you are seeing some you need to report them or I won't know to fix them.

Well......... with the TLK 1.4 pack yes you're right we don't know exactly what the bugs are other then what you can see with your 2 eyes on this screen. And we were referring to the 1,084+ bugs and counting with the TGE 1.4 engine. I am reporting this one right now as I consider it a bug if it doesn't work after you plug something in, it is a BUG. Call a spade a spade a shovel a shovel and a bug a bug is my MOTO.

We will continue to develope on both the 1.35 and the 1.4 platforms, but at this time we at ATOMIX consider the 1.4 build as way to buggy to count on at this time and urge the Dev team to work harder and longer hours to get some of the bug fixes we have spent our hard erned money on fixed. Well maybe not that much money, but we are loosing time more then we can afford at this time. We thought 1.4 was a solid build, so how can we know if it is the TLK or the TGE that is causing us the problem/bugs, we only have one build after all, and we don't seperate the 2, as they are one thing.

Anywho we sure could use some help not excuses, I am getting tired of people pointing fingers at everyone but where they need to be pointed. We are not dum people at ATOMIX and would like to get as much respect to others as we recieve back. I truly do love this software but hay guys we need to get our chits together and get better DOC's and so on for people, NOT TO MENTION ALL THE OTHER CONTENT PACKS THAT FLAT OUT JUST DON"T WORK with 1.4 that we have and can't use now, the nature pack for one. I haven't even started on that one yet. Sheeesh....... I am not trying to be a pain in the arse, DOH to late, OK well guys I hope I don't piss off to many peoples but we have needs and they are not getting met at this time.

DeathTwister AKA Maylock Aromy Stansbury
ATOMIX Productions
www.theatomizer.com
maylock@theatomizer.com
50 Weber Dr.
Klamath, CA. 95548
707-482-1138

#6 I was only trying to help out, there's no reason to become rude. If you are interested in figuring out why your shadows are missing, try viewing your mission in the TLK demo or a freshly downloaded and built TLK. If the shadows are visible then the issue is related to any changes that may have been made to TLK (either code, script, or pref related).

-John

#7 Well I managed to take the current head of TGE (1.4) and manually merged in the TLK using winmerge.
I orginally missed a file and had some ready only dso files (because GG checked them in)
once I resolved the issue it worked perfectly with no lighting problems like you are having.

I think thats why people are pointing to you asking that you double check your merge
and make sure you didnt miss anything since many of us already know it works for us.

as good as you may think your people are, they may have missed something, as I did, now it
works great, and with many of the content packs.

(ill just say that while I was working out the problems my scene looked just like yours until
I had a eureka and found it, it was my own mistake and not the TLK btw).

just just saying, check your merge. if that fails maybe you can send an example object
to me and Ill test it in my vanilla TGE/TLK(1.4) and screenshot the results so youll know if its how the
object is built or if its your merge thats still causing a problem.

#8 Hay all,

Sorry I wasn't trying to be rude or mean, but I am so frustrated ATM. Did you read my posts? we said we did all that and this was the end result. I apologize if I offended anyone, it was never my intent. but done, that, been there, so where do I go now? Let me give my heart felt thanks for the help I know you will be imparting to me soon. we are just trying to pull our chit together here as well.

It is hard to tell sometimes who is the (buggie), us/ATOMIX , GG or in some cases other EA software we are working on. It can be a bit head spinning at times. How can we figure out if it is us, if everything else has bugs as well? And as I have said before, I am an artist not a programmer so I just like to spin dials and move sliders, not program code. It makes my head hurt ROTFL. So so very sorry if I had offeneded anyone here, the clock is ticking and I am at a standstill almost. Just trying to get my Yob done is all. /smiles warmly...


The artist conceives worlds where no one can go. the programmer Mathematically creates the Magic so the rest of the world can follow The artist into wonderful places of our minds.

DeathTwister AKA Maylock
ATOMIX Productions
www.theatomizer.com
Klamath, CA.

#9 If you've tried everything else already, then try changing the sun's azimuth by +-25 degrees.

#10 Hay Martain,

WOW thanks bro and we will check into that like you suggest. KEWL we were not saying exactly it was GG fault, just we didn't know where to look and it wasn't as easy as it should be is all. We knew very well it could be us, just didn't know who was the "Buggie" ROTFL...... We will check into that. We just needed a Direction to go. There is still way to many bugs in 1.4 , but they will get fewer I am sure.

WAY COOL if your fix works. I bow and am humbled by you my brother.../smiles

Note: My programmer is on it now. Thank you very much.

DeathTwister
ATOMIX Productions
www.theatomizer.com
Klamath, CA.
maylock@theatomizer.com

#11 Deathtwister: with all due respect, your comment tone is not needed on these forums. With the licenses you have purchcased, technical support is purely voluntary, and your tone and comments make it a choice for many to not help you.

In addition, you are in violation of the EULA by sharing your account login. Please desist from doing so in the future.

#12 Hay again,

As I have said before I am sorry if I offened anyone. I am just trying to get stuff done. As for this account yes we have a problem as I am the actual buyer of this software and we have been trying to figure out who to get in touch with GG to merge both of our accounts into one as we both use both the stuff we have bought. We are equal partners and have equal use between Shon and I. If there is someone we could conntact about that we sure would be beholding to you brother. We of course always want to do the right thing, and I for one don't like bugging anyone normaly.

I think this is about the first time I have actually posted anything in GG or very little. I usually let the big boys talk it out and I read or watch, as I am sure they are much better at it. Sorry if I ruffled feathers and I promise to be better at my questains in the future. We do look intently at posts and Tuts before we post stuff usually, but we have had trouble before with TLK and it can get frustrating. And GG is notorious for bad Docs sometimes. But we do search bro. By the way we tried the azimuth trick first, didn't help. we are looking at theMartian fix now to see if we can get it to look better, but so far we are still having trouble. If anyone else has had this problem and got a fix we would love to hear it.

Again we are sorry and hope people understand where we are coming from.

DeathTwister & Shon

#13 It took me a long time to think about replying to this post since the ire and finger-pointing seems misdirected at best on the part of the ATOMIX team members (something which I have noted on other forums as well). Even the apology is in the form of a rhetorical reversal: "I'm sorry, but if you...we wouldn't be frustrated". Which is a subtle accusation seemingly in the form of an apology.

As a point of reference, where did this nebulous number 1,084 bugs come from? Either in relation to TGE 1.4 or TLK. I know we used to have a project tracking list (and probably still do, though I do not know where it has gone with the new web redesign), but I do not remember it being near that number.

I moved my content into TLK 1.4 with little difficulty--mine being that it had been a while since I implemented the Advanced Camera resource, so it was my fault rather than TGE/TLK's. But as for content, everything seems to be working fine so far.

What OS are you using? I'm using Windows XP professional Tablet Edition and Mac OS X 10.3.9 (need to upgrade)
What compiler? I use Visual Studio 2003 professional and will be moving to 2005 sometime here soon. XCode for the Mac.
Have you added any resources (your own or others)? For example, the only resource that I have added has been the Advanced Camera. There are a number of resources with a variety of features that are linked specifically to previous engine versions which could cause problems. Did you add in any of the cell-shading resources or shadow resources or play in the OpenGL code in the platform layer?

The screenshots do appear to have textures missing and the azimuth hosed. Those were my first throughts when I saw the post, but when I noted the accusatory tone I passed the topic up. There is no reason to help someone without an iota of respect for those they are asking for help from. Since, I decided to change my mind and help you clarify the problem so that you can get help.

Rather than making blanket statements about how unreliable the engine is when your team is comprised of experts in the field, you should concentrate on the problems and creating a concise description of the issues at hand. Rather than pointing fingers willy-nilly under another person's account (which you should not be sharing in the first place), create a description of your process by which you came upon this problem. Let us know if you compiled the engine, if you changed the engine, if you simply dropped in the directories (perhaps accidentally creating a shortcut to the textures versus copying the textures thus causing them to not show up), what operating system you are using, what graphics card you are using, etc. Did you take these screenshots back-to-back to did you take the 1.35 ones a while ago and then attempt to match up the 1.4 ones for an example?

How did the problem occur and how can we help you? Without the blanket finger-pointing or nebulous numerology.

#14 If Joe buys a license to TGE and Dan buys a license to TLK, that doesn't mean you both get to use both licenses freely. Joe needs to buy BOTH TGE AND TLK and Dan also needs to buy BOTH TGE AND TLK for BOTH of them to use the licenses. It's a total of $150 each and if "professionals" can't afford $150, then you might want to reconsider what that term means.

#15 Jonathon it seems you are correct. OUCH just read the license agreement carefully. By my understanding most of us on the forum are breaking the agreements. If we have a two man team we do have to have 2 licenses.

Quote:2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single seat to an individual, a limited non-exclusive, non-transferable license to use the Torque Game Engine (Engine) for the purposes of making source code and object code for an unlimited number of electronic single or multi-user Games ("Games").

from the license page itself. It looks like we have to buy another copy of everything for us to continue our work.
I don't believe in breaking the law. We were under the impression that we could have a license for each team and the restriction was to only have one programmer on that team. Having to buy a seperate license for every artist, modeller and level designer can get restrictive in cost.
3. RESTRICTIONS.
The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) This license is granted to individuals only, and cannot be owned by corporate or business entities.

So as a company we are breaking the license. We are beginning to find this to be very restrictive. How does this relate to all of the people on the forum trading source code and art to each other. ARE we breaking the agreement?
Who said we were professional game developers? We are like 99% of the rest of Garage Game members. We have an idea for a game and we want to do it. Professionals make money developing and selling games. There are only a few of those on Garagegames. We are a couple of poor guys on disability who see something like this as a way to better ourselves. Hardly professional game developers. I was a Professional Programmer for 30 years before I became disabled, but business applications not games.
Anyway I thank you Jonathon for the enlightment on this subject. We are going to tread a lot lighter around here because we could lose all of our hard work over the last year because of our misunderstanding of the licensing.
Shon Gale

#16 John says:

Quote:Btw: as far as I know there are no TLK bugs, if you are seeing some you need to report them or I won't know to fix them

About the number of bugs we referred to here is the refernce. We try to do our homework and would not want to mislead you. Ant the reference was to TGE bugs not TLK.
www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=38481
Here's the link to the 1084 number we came up with.
Thanks John

#17 Shon,

This is why we have PRIVATE SDK ONLY FORUMS.
Anyone on this forum is both a TGE SDK owner and a TLK owner. This way we can share code with eachother without worrying about weither or not everyone viewing the code also has a license.

The company license (Commercial) is alot more and is per seat and is not per individual, so there is an option for companies. Its not like a company cant purchase the license for an employee, the license just has to be in the employees name afterwards, so the company cant have it back.
But for this to cost hte company more money, they would have to do this 10 times before it became more expensive then buying a single commercial license (provided they bought it for an employee, who left, and then did it again 10 times)

You only need 1 license per INDIVIDUAL with source code access (the programmer).
If you share your source with other people on the team, then they need to have a license also. Its as simple as that.

#18 Only the person that has access to the source code needs a license. If you are an "art guy", and your role is adding buildings, animating models, editting terrain, sound, etc, then you do not need access to the source, and thus you do not need an extra license.

#19 My misunderstanding is: What is the difference between a seat and an individual. To me they are the same. The individual has a seat that they sit on, preferably in a chair or other comfortable spot. Har Har??????
Shon

#20 Seat = individual. Basically, when u purchase a license, it's for whoever purchased it. they can use it on 10000 computers without breaking the agreement, it's as soon as someone ELSE uses it for ANY reason (even if they are an art guy) that it breaks the license. Here are a few examples to live by:

Dan is a project manager, Stan is a DBA, Fran, Jan, and Gram are all programmers, and Demetrius and Pancho are artists. (sorry, ran out of things that rhyme with dan =P)

Dan looks at the source code to determine which one of the programmers should be doing what work. Dan needs a license for himself.

Stan builds the entire database front and back including setting up users and tables and stuff. Stan does NOT need a license for himself.

Fran is purely a scripter and uses notepad to create NEW TorqueScript files, but NEVER opens an already made file nor any C++ code. Fran does NOT need a license.

Jan is purely a scripter and edits current scripts as well as making new ones. Jan needs a license.

Gram is purely a C++ coder and modifies the engine itself. Gram DOES need a license.

Demetrius is an artist and modeler. Demetrius builds models and then launches the starter.rpg after adding datablocks and such to the script files to see how it looks in TGE. Demetrius DOES need a license.

Pancho is an artist and modeler. Pancho uses showtool pro to test all his models. Pancho also builds textures which he sends to the rest of the team to test in game. Pancho does NOT need a license.